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Lonestar
02-18-2010, 06:43 PM
Woody's Mailbag: Broncos need to move Marshall, antics out of town
Manuel from Colorado Springs asks Woody about Brandon Marshall
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post
POSTED: 02/18/2010 01:00:00 AM MST
UPDATED: 02/18/2010 12:59:16 PM MST




Get wide receiver Brandon Marshall out of Denver. Wasn't he the guy who said he hated Denver after one of his many encounters with law enforcement? Nice touch now, saying he is "going with the flow," finally listening to some good advice and "has learned." Having been responsible for large groups of employees, I know that if you put the team second, regardless of performance, it derails the necessary order within that unit. Marshall walks and quacks like a lame duck. How could he think good performance supersedes everything else? Move him out.
— Manuel Garcia, Colorado Springs

Manuel: Don't send in the clowns. Send away the clown. It's time. I'm tired of Marshall's act. The Broncos are tired of his act. Broncos fans are tired of his actions.

Marshall has calmed down his off-field actions with women, but not his off-field antics with the Broncos. I don't think there's any way Marshall and coach Josh McDaniels can go forward together.

You haven't heard Josh say he wants Brandon back. There's a reason.

I can pull out my old columns: "Time to trade Marshall," "Grow up, Brandon," "Brandon has matured," "Brandon shows immaturity," "Brandon promises no more mistakes," "Brandon makes more mistakes," "Brandon has great year," "Brandon doesn't want to play last game," "Brandon hates Denver," "Brandon loves Denver," "Brandon wants out," "Brandon wants to sit up straight."

If he were to come back next season, we'd be saying, "Oh, Brandon is having a great year." Then we'd be saying Brandon is causing trouble, has gotten into trouble, says his new contract isn't sufficient, doesn't like Denver. He's not worth the trouble or the money.

Woody, do you believe any NFL team will show interest in wide receiver Plaxico Burress? He said recently he will play in the NFL again. I believe he will, but he will have to show he deserves to play again. Some of the players have the attitude that playing in the NFL is a right, but actually it's a privilege.

— Damian W., La Crosse, Wis.

Damian: Yes, I think Plaxico will get another chance. He will be edging up in years, and will be 34 by the time he's able to return. So somebody could get him cheap (no trade, no high number in salary) for a year or two.

I wasn't particularly impressed with his jail interview with Bill Cowher on CBS. He said all the right things about being sorry. What are you going to say in jail?

But he said he was working out two or three days a week, doing sit-ups and push-ups. Shouldn't he be working out five or seven days a week, doing all sorts of conditioning and weightlifting to prepare for his release? What else does he have to do? Play checkers?

We don't need another drama queen here, but I'm sure somebody like the Jets, or, lo and behold, the Raiders, will want him.

Woody, you gave your readers the job of mulling the Broncos' QB situation. I don't have to mull, I already know. Last year I said the Broncos should package some of the high draft picks they got for squandering Jay Cutler's talent and take Mark Sanchez. Trade one Pro Bowl talent for another. That did not happen. I like Tom Brandstater. Why not give him a chance? I don't believe in wasting picks (like Josh McDaniels did with cornerback Alphonso Smith). If you draft a QB, play him. If he can't play, package something else this year and get a real QB of the future. Kyle Orton isn't it. He has that Jake Plummer knack for boneheaded plays.
— Dam Nace, St. Louis

Dam: Dam straight. Let's try this again: Orton is an average quarterback. Average quarterbacks rarely, almost never, get to the Super Bowl.

Check out the final four in the playoffs this year. Drew Brees, Peyton Manning and Brett Favre took snaps for three of the four teams. All are potential Hall of Famers.

Sure, Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl, but he didn't even stick with the Ravens the next year. Brad Johnson also won a ring, with Tampa Bay. But those teams relied on great defenses.

So the Broncos will have to replace Orton in a couple of years. We know it ain't Chris Simms. We actually know it's not Brandstater. Unfortunately, he didn't impress the coaching staff while running the scout team's offense last year. I think the kid's got a chance, but not here. He probably will stick as a third QB again next season.

Team owner Pat Bowlen told The Post's Mike Klis that the Broncos will draft a quarterback in April. But, again, Josh isn't talking.

I suspect the Broncos will trade their first pick or use it on wide receiver Dez Bryant or a defensive lineman and then try, if they can, to get a QB in the second round from the crowd left.

I've discussed those possibilities in recent mailbags. The Broncos may have a chance at Notre Dame's Jimmy Clausen, because a lot of teams think he's a risky pick.

Colt McCoy has started working out again. Sam Bradford, I think, will go early.

It has to be a quarterback who will fit in Josh's system, although the only system I've figured out is throw short and hope the receiver can break away. If I hear "bubble screen" one more time, I'm going to bubble scream.



Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_14421762#ixzz0fvyVAFSY

HORSEPOWER 56
02-18-2010, 07:40 PM
If I hear "bubble screen" one more time, I'm going to bubble scream.

No kidding...;)

WARHORSE
02-18-2010, 09:19 PM
BUBBLE SCREEN.:coffee:

Lonestar
02-18-2010, 09:25 PM
No kidding...;)


That was woody talking not me. personally i think 90% of what he writes is bovine excretement. I only cut and pasted the entire article and left a link for those that wish to check it out for themselves.

tsiguy96
02-18-2010, 10:08 PM
woody is such a horrible reporter now, has he always been this bad?

yes we did run too many screens early on, but not near as many as people think, i think people let the preseason screen fest carry over to their opinions of the season.

rcsodak
02-18-2010, 11:12 PM
woody is such a horrible reporter now, has he always been this bad?

yes we did run too many screens early on, but not near as many as people think, i think people let the preseason screen fest carry over to their opinions of the season.

It's what you do when your Oline is porous and you have no running game.

check

and

check

Ziggy
02-19-2010, 12:27 AM
It's what you do when your Oline is porous and you have no running game.

check

and

check

Bingo. I wish more folks around here had the sense to realize that a lot of the play calling was out of necessity.

Carl
02-19-2010, 12:32 AM
You haven't heard Josh say he wants Brandon back. There's a reason.

I think this is the nugget we can pull out of this article. Mcdaniels has been pretty straight forward and specific with what he wants to do with the team. So, assuming hes not just straight up lying to us, we know that Denver will look to fill holes on the Oline and Dline early on and look for a QB to replace Sims at #2. Orton is a RFA and Mcdaniels is speaking like he is not, talking about how good he is going to be next year. Everybody knows Orton is coming back. Marshall on the other hand, is hands down the best player on our offense and Mcdaniels has not even said anything besides "we'll see." This doesnt mean he hasnt decided yet. THe guy has answered every question straight forward and i refuse to believe that he is truly on the fence, not leaning in any direction. Silence is good business and thats the real reason hes not talking. He doesnt want to lower Marshalls trade value. Im not saying that this is a good thing or that I hate it. These just seem to be how the situation is progressing so far and its gonna take more than a "everythings all better:)" to convince me.

Lonestar
02-19-2010, 01:00 AM
I think this is the nugget we can pull out of this article. Mcdaniels has been pretty straight forward and specific with what he wants to do with the team. So, assuming hes not just straight up lying to us, we know that Denver will look to fill holes on the Oline and Dline early on and look for a QB to replace Sims at #2. Orton is a RFA and Mcdaniels is speaking like he is not, talking about how good he is going to be next year. Everybody knows Orton is coming back. Marshall on the other hand, is hands down the best player on our offense and Mcdaniels has not even said anything besides "we'll see." This doesnt mean he hasnt decided yet. THe guy has answered every question straight forward and i refuse to believe that he is truly on the fence, not leaning in any direction. Silence is good business and thats the real reason hes not talking. He doesnt want to lower Marshalls trade value. Im not saying that this is a good thing or that I hate it. These just seem to be how the situation is progressing so far and its gonna take more than a "everythings all better:)" to convince me.
:salute:
This bears repeating.. I think for the most part you are spot on.

topscribe
02-19-2010, 04:05 AM
That was woody talking not me. personally i think 90% of what he writes is bovine excretement. I only cut and pasted the entire article and left a link for those that wish to check it out for themselves.

Most of this article is what you said, anyway . . . :coffee:

-----

T.K.O.
02-19-2010, 02:18 PM
He said in order for the Broncos to get where they want to be, he needs both great players and a great system.

"That's what this offseason and every offseason will be about."

Miller asked McDaniels if wide receiver Brandon Marshall fits into his system.

"Certainly. I mean he had a great year, a Pro Bowl year. Brandon and I got along fine and I know we've had some differences of opinion and some other things that have happened, but he's a very good player, obviously, one of the elite receivers in this league," he said. "Our goal is to try to keep all of our good players and he's certainly one of them."

With the collective bargaining agreement aside, McDaniels said he wants Marshall back.

"We're looking to assemble the best team we can with the best talent and the best players and he's certainly proved this year that he's one of those guys in this league that's going to continue to be productive at that level every season."

Lonestar
02-19-2010, 02:26 PM
He said in order for the Broncos to get where they want to be, he needs both great players and a great system.

"That's what this offseason and every offseason will be about."

Miller asked McDaniels if wide receiver Brandon Marshall fits into his system.

"Certainly. I mean he had a great year, a Pro Bowl year. Brandon and I got along fine and I know we've had some differences of opinion and some other things that have happened, but he's a very good player, obviously, one of the elite receivers in this league," he said. "Our goal is to try to keep all of our good players and he's certainly one of them."

With the collective bargaining agreement aside, McDaniels said he wants Marshall back.

"We're looking to assemble the best team we can with the best talent and the best players and he's certainly proved this year that he's one of those guys in this league that's going to continue to be productive at that level every season."

reading between the line. I'd like BM back but there will be simulations in his contract and he has to give us a home town discount if he signs ..

IF not I'm playing nice nice to get the best draft choices I can, for his immature ass.

CoachChaz
02-19-2010, 02:34 PM
How old were Manning, Brees and Favre when they played in their first Super Bowl?


How old is Orton?

Carl
02-19-2010, 03:17 PM
How old were Manning, Brees and Favre when they played in their first Super Bowl?


How old is Orton?

Is this supposed to be a rhetorical question?

CoachChaz
02-19-2010, 03:19 PM
Is this supposed to be a rhetorical question?

Kind of. Obviously, I'm not going to compare Orton to the other guys as far as overall skills go, but I think it is often forgotten that Orton is only 27 years old and hasnt really had too much of an opportunity to play his best football yet.

TXBRONC
02-19-2010, 03:26 PM
Kind of. Obviously, I'm not going to compare Orton to the other guys as far as overall skills go, but I think it is often forgotten that Orton is only 27 years old and hasnt really had too much of an opportunity to play his best football yet.

Sounds like you've changed your mind about Orton being a long term solution.

T.K.O.
02-19-2010, 03:48 PM
orton was the least of our problems last year.
i'm not going to sit here and try and say he was awesome,but he played well and played through injuries for the better part of the season.
our biggest problem was the o-line and the the run game (which obviously go hand in hand).
we were terrible on 1st and 3rd down rushing,buckhalter did well and had alot more impact than moreno ,but he too had injury issues and the fact that mcd wanted to get moreno alot of carries to prime him to be a feature back next year and beyond.
i think if we make improving the line a priority we should see some significant improvement to our run game ,which in turn opens up the passing game and the entire offense .
i really think orton has the skills and intelligence to run the system effectively.but the "system" requires all cylinders to be firing and last year we never really had that going for us.
i agree we need to get a quality back up qb ( or draft a stud for the future )
but we will be alot better off if we fix the lines and keep the key players we have.

Nomad
02-19-2010, 03:56 PM
I'm willing to give Orton the benefit of the doubt (we'll see next year) but if the BRONCOS don't address the oline (starting and depth wise), we may have to find a QB (who is mobile and can throw on the run) that can overcome a poor line which they're aren't many that can!!

CoachChaz
02-19-2010, 03:56 PM
Sounds like you've changed your mind about Orton being a long term solution.

No...I maintain my position. If an obviously immediate upgrade is available...I'm all for it. Same can be said for any position. I'm also not opposed to drafting a QB for the future.

That all being said...if Orton is our QB next year and beyond, I'm willing to give him more than one year to prove he is capable of the task.

rcsodak
02-19-2010, 04:43 PM
No...I maintain my position. If an obviously immediate upgrade is available...I'm all for it. Same can be said for any position. I'm also not opposed to drafting a QB for the future.

That all being said...if Orton is our QB next year and beyond, I'm willing to give him more than one year to prove he is capable of the task.

People are so quick to blame the qb.

I blamed cutler for alot of losses.....as he should be. He threw dumbass int's at the most inopportune times/redzone.

I can't remember Orton doing that last year.

Sure, he got picked 2x for 6's vs KC, but take them away, and they STILL get beat.

He's heady...gutsy...modest...smart...determined...coac hable...team 1st.

It's been awhile since we had a QB like that.

Lonestar
02-19-2010, 11:08 PM
People are so quick to blame the qb.

I blamed cutler for alot of losses.....as he should be. He threw dumbass int's at the most inopportune times/redzone.

I can't remember Orton doing that last year.

Sure, he got picked 2x for 6's vs KC, but take them away, and they STILL get beat.

He's heady...gutsy...modest...smart...determined...coac hable...team 1st.

It's been awhile since we had a QB like that.


I certainly do not understand this. all most can think is he is Joshes boy, or he does not have a cannon arm.

he is everything :

heady...gutsy...modest...smart...determined...coac hable...team 1st.

that jay was not

HORSEPOWER 56
02-20-2010, 10:35 AM
Kind of. Obviously, I'm not going to compare Orton to the other guys as far as overall skills go, but I think it is often forgotten that Orton is only 27 years old and hasnt really had too much of an opportunity to play his best football yet.

I'm not trying to turn this into another anti-Orton debate, but I think we've seen his best football. I don't see his physical skills improving. He's in his prime physically right now. Every year older will add wisdom, but detract from his athleticism, it's just a fact of life.

Orton never really was an ideal physical specimen, so even if he "hits the gym" this offseason I don't think it's going to change much (maybe it'll help him fight off those pesky ankle injuries, who knows?).

Manning and Favre have always been physical specimens with a big arm and the ability to throw the ball to anywhere on the field. Brees, although not prototypical size, is deadly accurate on short and mid range passes and is the master of putting the ball "only where his WR can get it".

Okay, I'm done now.

Northman
02-20-2010, 11:15 AM
Bingo. I wish more folks around here had the sense to realize that a lot of the play calling was out of necessity.

Unfortuantely, who's fault is that? If you know you dont have the guys in place to run YOUR scheme why try and force it? Wouldnt the "smart" thing to do would be to utilize the scheme that best fits your personnel?

Northman
02-20-2010, 11:28 AM
I'm not trying to turn this into another anti-Orton debate, but I think we've seen his best football. I don't see his physical skills improving. He's in his prime physically right now. Every year older will add wisdom, but detract from his athleticism, it's just a fact of life.

Orton never really was an ideal physical specimen, so even if he "hits the gym" this offseason I don't think it's going to change much (maybe it'll help him fight off those pesky ankle injuries, who knows?).

Manning and Favre have always been physical specimens with a big arm and the ability to throw the ball to anywhere on the field. Brees, although not prototypical size, is deadly accurate on short and mid range passes and is the master of putting the ball "only where his WR can get it".

Okay, I'm done now.


It is kind of funny. When the trade for Orton first happened we all believed that he would succeed because our Oline is better than Chicago's. But now, all of a sudden our Oline sucked. Again, this falls on the HC. If you dont have the players necessary to run the type of a scheme you want you dont force the triangle into the square hole. And believe it or not, a majority of the wins last year fell no the defensive side of the ball who in the end couldnt keep it up with no offense to show for it. :tsk:

Ravage!!!
02-20-2010, 11:45 AM
It is kind of funny. When the trade for Orton first happened we all believed that he would succeed because our Oline is better than Chicago's. But now, all of a sudden our Oline sucked. Again, this falls on the HC. If you dont have the players necessary to run the type of a scheme you want you dont force the triangle into the square hole. And believe it or not, a majority of the wins last year fell no the defensive side of the ball who in the end couldnt keep it up with no offense to show for it. :tsk:

Exactly.

But I think we've seen Orton's game enough over 5 years to know what he is, and what he isn't.

Broncolingus
02-20-2010, 02:03 PM
Marshall needs to be gone - not necessarily what I 'want,' but at this point (his fault, McD's fault, Orton's fault, man-on-the-moon's fault, whatever...) he needs to go.

...and he can take Scheff with him - that I DO want.

Agree with most - Orton is what Denver has for the next year or two while they groom the long term solution at QB. Hopefully, somebody who is young and can throw down field.

I'd have no problem with Orton staying as a backup here - I do like his attitude and he seems to be a great team player - but that's probably unrealistic.

JMO...

Lonestar
02-20-2010, 03:29 PM
It is kind of funny. When the trade for Orton first happened we all believed that he would succeed because our Oline is better than Chicago's. But now, all of a sudden our Oline sucked. Again, this falls on the HC. If you dont have the players necessary to run the type of a scheme you want you dont force the triangle into the square hole. And believe it or not, a majority of the wins last year fell no the defensive side of the ball who in the end couldnt keep it up with no offense to show for it. :tsk:

While I almost agree with you here.

When Josh came to town the OLINE was supposed to be one of the best in the NFL, that based on last years stats.

NOw he had to have asked Dennison if his loin could make the changes he wanted them to. Does anyone doubt that he would have gathered him in and said this is what I want to do. Who on the OLINE can't do this? I'm guessing since Denison has never taught anything but ZBS that he learned from the master Gibbs, that he was not certain but knowing his job was on the line he told Josh and Xman they could do it.

As we can see from last years debacle they could not and probably why Dennison is not still around, aside from the fact that he got a better job offer.

We also Know that hamilton was replaced midstream and of course the rock on the right crumbled do to injury.

Against out smallish DLINE in TC everything went well as the unit was intact. but once we started playing real LOS teams it did not take long to figure out that it was not working. That is why on running plays we saw more ZBS after a few games.

But the real issue was lack of continuity with two new bodies on the loin in polumbus whom may be a bust or just that raw he needs time to get better.

Hockstien althought a veteran just did not have what it took to do the job, or perhaps casey did not help him as much as he had back in NE with their center.

Hey I do not have the answer for sure.

But I firmly believe that Josh was under the impression that his OLINE could do the job or he would have replaced some of them up front. Or not made the switch completely away from ZBS in TC.

I suspect he thought that hamilton would be the weak link thus, the reason we drafted a OG and brought one in. Or perhaps he thought they would be losing Kuper as well to FA.

dogfish
02-20-2010, 03:55 PM
I certainly do not understand this. all most can think is he is Joshes boy, or he does not have a cannon arm.

he is everything :

heady...gutsy...modest...smart...determined...coac hable...team 1st.

that jay was not

you forgot "low on talent". . . . :heh:



*runs away*

Lonestar
02-20-2010, 04:15 PM
you forgot "low on talent". . . . :heh:



*runs away*

UNlike some I still think there is talent there.. I have seen no indication that he can't throw it long, Nor have I seen that he can't make "all of the throws".

I'll give him another year hopefully behind a decent Pass blocking oLINE and having another year in the scheme as well as most of his targets having the same.

I know that many here think that the team should have had the O down dick straight after a couple of games, but football at this level playing against the best of the best players in the world just does not allow for any hesitation..

Kind a like when Ashley came to town, he terrorized the WAC had an almost 400 yard day against UTEP. was highly touted a burner with grate pass catching ability. But he found out fast that talent can only get you so far. Playing against world class DB in the NFL was a far cry from those in the WAC.

He had to evolve but he was a one trick pony that IMHO did not like to get hit, something he rarely did in the WAC.

I'm not saying that Kyle is an elite QB but we really do not need and Elite QB to win consistently and frankly no one thought brady was going to be the QB he turned out to be. He developed into one with coaching and practice.

I for one am willing to give him at least this coming year to see what he is. If Josh wants to draft another QB I have no issues with that but I suspect he will be a later round choice and not a day one guy. T hat is or has not been in the NE mentality for decades or at least since Bill took over. In fact just the opposite. Like mike liked no body RB's I suspect Josh will like no name QB's.

spikerman
02-20-2010, 05:36 PM
Every year older will add wisdom, but detract from his athleticism, it's just a fact of life.
Oh Lord this is scary. If Orton were any less athletic he would be, well, me.

Note to PB, I'm available at a cheaper price!

spikerman
02-20-2010, 05:47 PM
UNlike some I still think there is talent there.. I have seen no indication that he can't throw it long, Nor have I seen that he can't make "all of the throws". You're right, we haven't seen that evidence. What we've seen is, whether it's his choice or the coaches, a complete lack of will to attempt those throws.



I'll give him another year hopefully behind a decent Pass blocking oLINE and having another year in the scheme as well as most of his targets having the same.

I know that many here think that the team should have had the O down dick straight after a couple of games, but football at this level playing against the best of the best players in the world just does not allow for any hesitation..

Kind a like when Ashley came to town, he terrorized the WAC had an almost 400 yard day against UTEP. was highly touted a burner with grate pass catching ability. But he found out fast that talent can only get you so far. Playing against world class DB in the NFL was a far cry from those in the WAC.

He had to evolve but he was a one trick pony that IMHO did not like to get hit, something he rarely did in the WAC.

I'm not saying that Kyle is an elite QB but we really do not need and Elite QB to win consistently and frankly no one thought brady was going to be the QB he turned out to be. He developed into one with coaching and practice.
I'm not necessarily anti-Orton, but let's not pretend this guy is a "young" player who just needs to figure out the NFL game. He's been around for awhile. I think by now what you see is what you get. The last few season also prove that unless you have an exceptional defense (Denver doesn't), then yes, you probably need an elite, or at least a VERY good, QB to win.


I for one am willing to give him at least this coming year to see what he is. If Josh wants to draft another QB I have no issues with that but I suspect he will be a later round choice and not a day one guy. T hat is or has not been in the NE mentality for decades or at least since Bill took over. In fact just the opposite. Like mike liked no body RB's I suspect Josh will like no name QB's. I hope McDaniels doesn't picture himself a QB miracle worker because of one year with Cassel. If he really turned him into a great QB I don't think he would have struggled like he did last year. I'm not saying that McDaniels didn't play a large role with Cassel, but I suspect he caught lightning in a bottle for one year. I don't think he (or we) can count on him turning much lesser QBs into Super Bowl champions.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-20-2010, 06:06 PM
Okay, this is the last poke I'm going to make at Orton this thread but I learned some new trivia today. Remember how bad we were about 3 & out this year? Did you know we led the league in 3 & outs? I didn't until today.

Sure, you can say it was the O-line's fault or the fact that our RBs couldn't convert on 3rd and 1, but I learned another fun fact today. Do you know what team led the league in 3 & outs last year? The Chicago Bears. There's only one constant there - a QB that either will not or can not throw consistently past the sticks and make plays with his arm when it matters most... on 3rd down.

spikerman
02-20-2010, 06:16 PM
Okay, this is the last poke I'm going to make at Orton this thread but I learned some new trivia today. Remember how bad we were about 3 & out this year? Did you know we led the league in 3 & outs? I didn't until today.

Sure, you can say it was the O-line's fault or the fact that our RBs couldn't convert on 3rd and 1, but I learned another fun fact today. Do you know what team led the league in 3 & outs last year? The Chicago Bears. There's only one constant there - a QB that either will not or can not throw consistently past the sticks and make plays with his arm when it matters most... on 3rd down.

:eek: :shocked: :censored:

Lonestar
02-20-2010, 06:26 PM
You're right, we haven't seen that evidence. What we've seen is, whether it's his choice or the coaches, a complete lack of will to attempt those throws.

I'm not necessarily anti-Orton, but let's not pretend this guy is a "young" player who just needs to figure out the NFL game. He's been around for awhile. I think by now what you see is what you get. The last few season also prove that unless you have an exceptional defense (Denver doesn't), then yes, you probably need an elite, or at least a VERY good, QB to win.

I hope McDaniels doesn't picture himself a QB miracle worker because of one year with Cassel. If he really turned him into a great QB I don't think he would have struggled like he did last year. I'm not saying that McDaniels didn't play a large role with Cassel, but I suspect he caught lightning in a bottle for one year. I don't think he (or we) can count on him turning much lesser QBs into Super Bowl champions.

I think the OLINE and lack of a consistent running game cause the game plan to be what we saw.

Also when something is new to everyone it can be a total chinese fire drill. with everyone thinking about their routes/roles it just flat takes time for everyone to be on the same page.

Orton not only had to know his reads and the routes he was looking for but if one of the WR does not clear the area for the other WR then all is screwed. or at least most is screwed.

for those that are going argue that farve, and the rookie in NYJ played well in new systems these also had great OLINE and a great running games they stepped into. Also they were the only newbie in the scheme so they only had to worry about getting their part and not wondering is Royal going to run the correct route.

Cassell had the working knowledge of 2-3 ears watching a HOF QB and setting in film and QB meetings with him. It was not brand new to him stepping on the field with NO ONE else knowing what was going on. Did Josh work wonders with him, who knows , but he did adapt the playbook/game plan each week to make him look great.


Again last year in KC everything was new for everyone just like it was here in DEN.

I'm pretty sure that next year will be a vast improvement IF we get some OLINE help, for not only QB play but also everyone else.

Rome was not built in a day.

Lonestar
02-20-2010, 06:38 PM
Okay, this is the last poke I'm going to make at Orton this thread but I learned some new trivia today. Remember how bad we were about 3 & out this year? Did you know we led the league in 3 & outs? I didn't until today.

Sure, you can say it was the O-line's fault or the fact that our RBs couldn't convert on 3rd and 1, but I learned another fun fact today. Do you know what team led the league in 3 & outs last year? The Chicago Bears. There's only one constant there - a QB that either will not or can not throw consistently past the sticks and make plays with his arm when it matters most... on 3rd down.


does it really mean arm strength? We really do not know that for sure do we?
All it means is we sucked at it for what whatever reason and they did not.

rcsodak
02-20-2010, 09:30 PM
I'm not trying to turn this into another anti-Orton debate, but I think we've seen his best football. I don't see his physical skills improving. He's in his prime physically right now. Every year older will add wisdom, but detract from his athleticism, it's just a fact of life.

Orton never really was an ideal physical specimen, so even if he "hits the gym" this offseason I don't think it's going to change much (maybe it'll help him fight off those pesky ankle injuries, who knows?).

Manning and Favre have always been physical specimens with a big arm and the ability to throw the ball to anywhere on the field. Brees, although not prototypical size, is deadly accurate on short and mid range passes and is the master of putting the ball "only where his WR can get it".

Okay, I'm done now.

Who says he has to "hit the gym"?

I think it's easy to agree that he's never had much coaching, after he hit the NFL. Not when you look at where he was.

Now, he has McD. The same person that turned Cassell into a pretty damn good QB in his only year starting.

Give him the offseason with McD, and lets' see what he has to show for it.

I'm betting we're going to see a more accurate/decisive QB than what was on the field last year.

rcsodak
02-20-2010, 09:32 PM
Unfortuantely, who's fault is that? If you know you dont have the guys in place to run YOUR scheme why try and force it? Wouldnt the "smart" thing to do would be to utilize the scheme that best fits your personnel?

Why? So the team the following year is still learning the system he WANTS to install?

You have to start SOMEWHERE, right? What better time than the present! :rolleyes:

Ravage!!!
02-20-2010, 09:43 PM
Who says he has to "hit the gym"?

McD..... in his interview

rcsodak
02-20-2010, 09:47 PM
You're right, we haven't seen that evidence. What we've seen is, whether it's his choice or the coaches, a complete lack of will to attempt those throws.

I'm not necessarily anti-Orton, but let's not pretend this guy is a "young" player who just needs to figure out the NFL game. He's been around for awhile. I think by now what you see is what you get. The last few season also prove that unless you have an exceptional defense (Denver doesn't), then yes, you probably need an elite, or at least a VERY good, QB to win.

I hope McDaniels doesn't picture himself a QB miracle worker because of one year with Cassel. If he really turned him into a great QB I don't think he would have struggled like he did last year. I'm not saying that McDaniels didn't play a large role with Cassel, but I suspect he caught lightning in a bottle for one year. I don't think he (or we) can count on him turning much lesser QBs into Super Bowl champions.

Orton's not 'old', either.

In fact, Cutler has played in more games.

Let's not think he's some journeyman QB that's been bouncing around the league for 10yrs.

College:
--tabbed Most Accurate Passer, Strongest Arm and Coolest in the Clutch in Big Ten by Lindy's .
--can throw a football 73 or 74 yards "if I get into one" ... out-threw NFL quarterback Jon Kitna at Purdue's Elite Quarterback Camp
--Purdue career leader with 2.43 interception percentage (23 interceptions in 947 attempts)
--119.8 career passing efficiency
--named Most Fearless Quarterback in Big Ten by The Sporting News ... selected Best Passing QB in Big Ten by Street & Smith's.

He has the ability. He just needs to be allowed to use it.

spikerman
02-20-2010, 11:16 PM
Orton's not 'old', either.

In fact, Cutler has played in more games.

Let's not think he's some journeyman QB that's been bouncing around the league for 10yrs.

College:
--tabbed Most Accurate Passer, Strongest Arm and Coolest in the Clutch in Big Ten by Lindy's .
--can throw a football 73 or 74 yards "if I get into one" ... out-threw NFL quarterback Jon Kitna at Purdue's Elite Quarterback Camp
--Purdue career leader with 2.43 interception percentage (23 interceptions in 947 attempts)
--119.8 career passing efficiency
--named Most Fearless Quarterback in Big Ten by The Sporting News ... selected Best Passing QB in Big Ten by Street & Smith's.

He has the ability. He just needs to be allowed to use it.
I never meant to imply he was old, but he's not a young, inexperienced player either.

Like I said, I'm not an Orton hater, but there are some things to keep in mind. First, throw out the college stats - they don't mean anything in the NFL.

Next, the distance he can throw the ball is not a true test of arm strength. I think pretty much all NFL QBs can throw the ball anywhere from 65-80 yards.
The true test is the zip he can put on the 15 yard "out".

Finally, we have to remember that this is a guy who could not decisively beat out Rex Grossman as the starting QB for the Bears. Grossman is a marginal NFL player. So while I'm not rooting against Orton, history tells me that last year was pretty typical for him. I wouldn't expect to see much more than that in the future. If he proves me wrong, I would be EXTREMELY happy.

Lonestar
02-20-2010, 11:42 PM
Why? So the team the following year is still learning the system he WANTS to install?

You have to start SOMEWHERE, right? What better time than the present! :rolleyes:


Orton's not 'old', either.

In fact, Cutler has played in more games.

Let's not think he's some journeyman QB that's been bouncing around the league for 10yrs.

College:
--tabbed Most Accurate Passer, Strongest Arm and Coolest in the Clutch in Big Ten by Lindy's .
--can throw a football 73 or 74 yards "if I get into one" ... out-threw NFL quarterback Jon Kitna at Purdue's Elite Quarterback Camp
--Purdue career leader with 2.43 interception percentage (23 interceptions in 947 attempts)
--119.8 career passing efficiency
--named Most Fearless Quarterback in Big Ten by The Sporting News ... selected Best Passing QB in Big Ten by Street & Smith's.

He has the ability. He just needs to be allowed to use it.

Wait RC you are being way to logical in your posts.

SOme of this folks expected him to come in to a brand new team, brand new scheme, one that even the OC or QB coach has to learn. the only folks on O that have clue about it are Josh, the FB, and one Oline guy that is not even on the starting lineup.

That leaves everyone learning a new scheme including play calling, routes, how to read defenses, blocking assignments, timing of receivers, so it is not just Orton that is learning EVERYONE is some of them rookies. What makes it hard on Orton as He has to know what everyone is doing on the field where they are supposed to be, when, what route they are running. ALos need sot be able to read the defense in front of him and to be able to check off the play if it is not going to work.

Some of the doubters were willing to give cutler up to three years to learn mikes scheme even though most of the players were already doing it before he got here. So he did not have to worry about if the WR was running the correct route.

Yet they expected Orton and the team to have this down pat after a few games.

It is just not like that at this level playing against world class athletes that do not allow any time for indecision, doubt or for that matter thinking after the ball is snapped. It all has to be automatic, like they have done it a thousand times before.

topscribe
02-20-2010, 11:56 PM
I'm not trying to turn this into another anti-Orton debate, but I think we've seen his best football. I don't see his physical skills improving. He's in his prime physically right now. Every year older will add wisdom, but detract from his athleticism, it's just a fact of life.

Orton never really was an ideal physical specimen, so even if he "hits the gym" this offseason I don't think it's going to change much (maybe it'll help him fight off those pesky ankle injuries, who knows?).

Manning and Favre have always been physical specimens with a big arm and the ability to throw the ball to anywhere on the field. Brees, although not prototypical size, is deadly accurate on short and mid range passes and is the master of putting the ball "only where his WR can get it".

Okay, I'm done now.

Sorry, but Kyle has a stronger arm than Manning, and that is not debatable.
That has been publicly proven.

And I don't know how you think we've seen Orton's best football. I don't know
how a QB can display his best football with the obstacles and injuries Orton
has endured. To me, that is a ridiculous assumption.

-----

topscribe
02-21-2010, 12:01 AM
I never meant to imply he was old, but he's not a young, inexperienced player either.

Like I said, I'm not an Orton hater, but there are some things to keep in mind. First, throw out the college stats - they don't mean anything in the NFL.

Next, the distance he can throw the ball is not a true test of arm strength. I think pretty much all NFL QBs can throw the ball anywhere from 65-80 yards.
The true test is the zip he can put on the 15 yard "out".

Finally, we have to remember that this is a guy who could not decisively beat out Rex Grossman as the starting QB for the Bears. Grossman is a marginal NFL player. So while I'm not rooting against Orton, history tells me that last year was pretty typical for him. I wouldn't expect to see much more than that in the future. If he proves me wrong, I would be EXTREMELY happy.

You know, I hear that time and time and time again, that Orton could not
beat out Grossman. I guess a whole lot of people around here barely know
where Chicago is, let alone anything about the Bears.

Orton decisively beat out Grossman in 2008. When Orton went down for one
game with a high ankle sprain, Grossman stepped in. The very next week,
Orton took back the starting job, ankle sprain and all.

Let us stop this idiotic assumption that Orton could not beat out Grossman.
Let us not assume we are all morons and cannot check the records to see for
ourselves. :tsk:

-----

Lonestar
02-21-2010, 12:06 AM
I never meant to imply he was old, but he's not a young, inexperienced player either.

Like I said, I'm not an Orton hater, but there are some things to keep in mind. First, throw out the college stats - they don't mean anything in the NFL.

Next, the distance he can throw the ball is not a true test of arm strength. I think pretty much all NFL QBs can throw the ball anywhere from 65-80 yards.
The true test is the zip he can put on the 15 yard "out".

Finally, we have to remember that this is a guy who could not decisively beat out Rex Grossman as the starting QB for the Bears. Grossman is a marginal NFL player. So while I'm not rooting against Orton, history tells me that last year was pretty typical for him. I wouldn't expect to see much more than that in the future. If he proves me wrong, I would be EXTREMELY happy.


You also have to remember that grossman was the big name QB the franchise guy they IIRC spent a #1 on in 2003 while Kyle was a mere #4 the year 2005 draft IIRC. #106 VS. 22 BIG Difference in expectation level from the FO to the fan levels.

Actually he did beat out grossman in 2008 until his ankle injury took him out of one game and the rest of the year he played on a high ankle sprain. Having his best year as a QB playing hurt for half a year. While he started 15 games as a rookie. He was injured in his second year and he took over for grossman in the third year in the last three games and started all games in 2008. except of a game he missed due to a high ankle sprain. but then he finished the season as the starter playing on a high ankle sprain.

Just had to set the record straight :salute:


This is one tough dude to play on the ankle for now about 12 games in his NFL career and 6 games wearing glove to protect his forefinger after a compound (bone broke skin) dislocated finger.

He is Warrior lets give a chance to prove he can through that 15 ears out that so many have dissed him on this past year.


http://www.nfl.com/players/kyleorton/gamelogs?id=ORT716150&season=2008

spikerman
02-21-2010, 12:14 AM
You know, I hear that time and time and time again, that Orton could not
beat out Grossman. I guess a whole lot of people around here barely know
where Chicago is, let alone anything about the Bears.

Orton decisively beat out Grossman in 2008. When Orton went down for one
game with a high ankle sprain, Grossman stepped in. The very next week,
Orton took back the starting job, ankle sprain and all.

Let us stop this idiotic assumption that Orton could not beat out Grossman.
Let us not assume we are all morons and cannot check the records to see for
ourselves. :tsk:

----- Thanks for the personal shot Top. I would have expected more from you. I'll know better next time. :salute:

spikerman
02-21-2010, 12:20 AM
Sorry, but Kyle has a stronger arm than Manning, and that is not debatable.
That has been publicly proven.----- Where has that been "publicly" proven? And please tell me you're not putting Orton anywhere near Manning's level. :lol:

topscribe
02-21-2010, 12:27 AM
Where has that been "publicly" proven? And please tell me you're not putting Orton anywhere near Manning's level. :lol:

Please. If Orton happened to be taller than Manning, would I be putting him at
Manning's level? If he had a faster car, would I be putting him at Manning's
level? I'm comparing one single attribute, not putting Orton in the HOF. Please
raise your cognitive level enough to understand what I am saying, rather than
to put words into my mouth.

Regarding what I said about arm strength where have you been--in a bomb
shelter reading old Reader's Digests this last 10 years? This is something that
has been documented time and again. In fact, I produced the documentation
myself more than once. And now, I'm tired of it--if you want to find it, you
can. I did. :coffee:


-----

topscribe
02-21-2010, 12:30 AM
Thanks for the personal shot Top. I would have expected more from you. I'll know better next time. :salute:

Any post that so grossly misrepresents the facts deserves a shot--and will get it.

The fact is, that lie has just gotten old. Very old.

-----

Lonestar
02-21-2010, 12:36 AM
OK before this gets any more testosterone going in it lets gets back

:focus:

Ravage!!!
02-21-2010, 01:29 AM
Kyle Orton does NOT have a stronger arm than Manning. Thats absurd, and untrue.

spikerman
02-21-2010, 09:48 AM
Kyle Orton does NOT have a stronger arm than Manning. Thats absurd, and untrue.

I agree, but it doesn't matter if he did. Orton is nowhere near the same class as Manning. As the Cutler haters will happily point out there is more to being a QB than arm strength. Manning is one of the greatest field generals I have personally ever seen.

To really compare the two, I have to see Manning throw more bubble screens, though. :D

Lonestar
02-21-2010, 10:18 AM
Pretty sure Top was not in any wat comparing Orton to Manning in anyway except pure distance in throwing the ball.

Which he has indeed debated and posted links on more than one occassion.

The myth that Orton's has a weak arm that a few keep posting in hopes that "if repeated enough will make it come true" needs to stop. Since he has come to DEN there simply have not been enough long balls called to PROVE or DISPROVE it as a fact.

Does he have the same rocket arm as jay did? No one has claimed he does.

Thus endeth the sermon for today.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

Northman
02-21-2010, 10:31 AM
Pretty sure Top was not in any wat comparing Orton to Manning in anyway except pure distance in throwing the ball.

Which he has indeed debated and posted links on more than one occassion.

The myth that Orton's has a weak arm that a few keep posting in hopes that "if repeated enough will make it come true" needs to stop. Since he has come to DEN there simply have not been enough long balls called to PROVE or DISPROVE it as a fact.

Does he have the same rocket arm as jay did? No one has claimed he does.

Thus endeth the sermon for today.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.


Hence why Spikerman said there is more to it than just throwing a long ball. Jmac can throw a deep ball too,, but it doesnt make him as good as Manning.

topscribe
02-21-2010, 10:33 AM
Kyle Orton does NOT have a stronger arm than Manning. Thats absurd, and untrue.

Forget the fact that Orton threw the ball 74 yards as a high school senior,
before he was fully developed. Forget the fact that Manning managed 68 yards
in the 2002 QB Challenge.

Ravage knows it all. He doesn't need to document anything. If Ravage says it,
that's final. So he has said. So it shall be done.

:coffee:

-----

topscribe
02-21-2010, 10:35 AM
Hence why Spikerman said there is more to it than just throwing a long ball. Jmac can throw a deep ball too,, but it doesnt make him as good as Manning.

Nobody said Orton is as good as Manning.

The issue was arm strength. Period. Shit. :tsk:


Jay Cutler has a stronger arm than Joe Montana did.

Therefore, Jay Cutler is a better QB than Montana ever was.

Duh.

-----

Northman
02-21-2010, 10:38 AM
Nobody said Orton is as good as Manning. Shit. :tsk:

-----

Than the long ball comparison is void. Its a useless arguement on which you try and hold Orton on this top tier status. Im not trying to be an ass but you've come out used the "long ball" excuse to defend him. Ive personally seen him throw the long ball so i know he can but im not going to proclaim him a "Elite" Qb because of it. Even if he can throw the ball longer than Manning who cares? Seriously? I want a guy who can make the damn plays when it counts.

topscribe
02-21-2010, 10:46 AM
Than the long ball comparison is void. Its a useless arguement on which you try and hold Orton on this top tier status. Im not trying to be an ass but you've come out used the "long ball" excuse to defend him. Ive personally seen him throw the long ball so i know he can but im not going to proclaim him a "Elite" Qb because of it. Even if he can throw the ball longer than Manning who cares? Seriously? I want a guy who can make the damn plays when it counts.

I never put Orton in any kind of "top tier" status. I NEVER have.

What's this "long ball excuse" shit? All I did was answer the "rag arm" myth.
That's all the hell I did.

Do not make something of what I said that it is not.

Damn.

-----

topscribe
02-21-2010, 10:47 AM
Pretty sure Top was not in any wat comparing Orton to Manning in anyway except pure distance in throwing the ball.

Which he has indeed debated and posted links on more than one occassion.

The myth that Orton's has a weak arm that a few keep posting in hopes that "if repeated enough will make it come true" needs to stop. Since he has come to DEN there simply have not been enough long balls called to PROVE or DISPROVE it as a fact.

Does he have the same rocket arm as jay did? No one has claimed he does.

Thus endeth the sermon for today.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

QFT qft

-----

topscribe
02-21-2010, 10:48 AM
Pretty sure Top was not in any wat comparing Orton to Manning in anyway except pure distance in throwing the ball.

Which he has indeed debated and posted links on more than one occassion.

The myth that Orton's has a weak arm that a few keep posting in hopes that "if repeated enough will make it come true" needs to stop. Since he has come to DEN there simply have not been enough long balls called to PROVE or DISPROVE it as a fact.

Does he have the same rocket arm as jay did? No one has claimed he does.

Thus endeth the sermon for today.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

QFT again.

-----

topscribe
02-21-2010, 10:48 AM
Pretty sure Top was not in any wat comparing Orton to Manning in anyway except pure distance in throwing the ball.

Which he has indeed debated and posted links on more than one occassion.

The myth that Orton's has a weak arm that a few keep posting in hopes that "if repeated enough will make it come true" needs to stop. Since he has come to DEN there simply have not been enough long balls called to PROVE or DISPROVE it as a fact.

Does he have the same rocket arm as jay did? No one has claimed he does.

Thus endeth the sermon for today.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

QFT yet again.

-----

topscribe
02-21-2010, 11:07 AM
Why is it people sometimes have so much trouble comprehending a post?
Someone said Manning has a stronger arm than Orton. I addressed nothing more
than that comment. That's it. I never said anything about accuracy. I never
placed Orton among the "elite" (whatever that is). I addressed one issue, and
one issue only: arm strength. That's it. Can it be any more simple and easy to
understand than that? :tsk:

FYI, here are a few other QBs who have or have had stronger arms than Manning:

JaMarcus Russell
Bobby Douglas
Jeff George
Terry Hanratty
Ryan Leaf

This makes every one of them a better QB than Peyton Manning.

-----

Northman
02-21-2010, 12:00 PM
Why is it people sometimes have so much trouble comprehending a post?
Someone said Manning has a stronger arm than Orton. I addressed nothing more
than that comment. That's it. I never said anything about accuracy. I never
placed Orton among the "elite" (whatever that is). I addressed one issue, and
one issue only: arm strength. That's it. Can it be any more simple and easy to
understand than that? :tsk:

FYI, here are a few other QBs who have or have had stronger arms than Manning:

JaMarcus Russell
Bobby Douglas
Jeff George
Terry Hanratty
Ryan Leaf

This makes every one of them a better QB than Peyton Manning.

-----


:lol:

rcsodak
02-21-2010, 12:20 PM
Exactly.

But I think we've seen Orton's game enough over 5 years to know what he is, and what he isn't.

He's played less games than Cutler has. Relative because everybody thinks he's 'been around the block' a few times. Pure nonsense.

He's improved his stats every year. Something cutler can't say.

I don't think we've seen enough of him to make any decisions.

rcsodak
02-21-2010, 12:27 PM
Okay, this is the last poke I'm going to make at Orton this thread but I learned some new trivia today. Remember how bad we were about 3 & out this year? Did you know we led the league in 3 & outs? I didn't until today.

Sure, you can say it was the O-line's fault or the fact that our RBs couldn't convert on 3rd and 1, but I learned another fun fact today. Do you know what team led the league in 3 & outs last year? The Chicago Bears. There's only one constant there - a QB that either will not or can not throw consistently past the sticks and make plays with his arm when it matters most... on 3rd down.

If you're going to say Orton is the reason, then look at his stats from 2008 vs cutler's 2009.

Funny how cutler was sacked more, even though he's more "athletic".
Threw more int's, yet had better receiving corp than orton did.

In other words, nit-picking through 'stat lines' is ridiculous.

T.K.O.
02-21-2010, 01:13 PM
Why is it people sometimes have so much trouble comprehending a post?
Someone said Manning has a stronger arm than Orton. I addressed nothing more
than that comment. That's it. I never said anything about accuracy. I never
placed Orton among the "elite" (whatever that is). I addressed one issue, and
one issue only: arm strength. That's it. Can it be any more simple and easy to
understand than that? :tsk:

FYI, here are a few other QBs who have or have had stronger arms than Manning:

JaMarcus Russell
Bobby Douglas
Jeff George
Terry Hanratty
Ryan Leaf
jay cutler
This makes every one of them a better QB than Peyton Manning.

-----

hey you forgot one.....;)

HORSEPOWER 56
02-21-2010, 01:59 PM
Who says he has to "hit the gym"?

I think it's easy to agree that he's never had much coaching, after he hit the NFL. Not when you look at where he was.

Now, he has McD. The same person that turned Cassell into a pretty damn good QB in his only year starting.

Give him the offseason with McD, and lets' see what he has to show for it.

I'm betting we're going to see a more accurate/decisive QB than what was on the field last year.

It was McDaniels himself in one of his last interviews that pointed out that Kyle was so engrossed in learning the new "system" that he rarely had time to hit the gym and build strength and stamina and should have more time to do that this offseason. Once again, This isn't me talking, this is McDaniels.

I'm so tired of people using Cassell as some kind of example of McDaniels' coaching greatness. Cassell sat for 4 years and learned from Brady. By the time he took his first snap, he had Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Ben Watson, and your boy Jabar Gaffney to throw to and a damned good o-line and running game behind him. Cassel stunk it up until he got the best gift he could've gotten... The Denver Broncos defense on prime time. As soon as Champ went our with a groin pull, Cassel "lit it up" throwing TDs to Randy Moss all night.

Until then, Cassel didn't do very well and wasn't any more than decent after that. Cassel got the same treatment that Orton got this year, checkdown, bubble screen, checkdown, bubble screen, and more checkdown. His #'s were high (like Orton's - exactly what happens when you play in a shotgun spread, short passing, high % throw offense) but they still failed to make the playoffs or win their division.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-21-2010, 02:03 PM
If you're going to say Orton is the reason, then look at his stats from 2008 vs cutler's 2009.

Funny how cutler was sacked more, even though he's more "athletic".
Threw more int's, yet had better receiving corp than orton did.

In other words, nit-picking through 'stat lines' is ridiculous.

In Chicago? Really? You think so? Cutler was sacked more, true. Cutler threw more interceptions, true. Cuter's receivers were better? Absolutely FALSE.

Cutler converted more third downs? True.

arapaho2
02-21-2010, 02:11 PM
Bingo. I wish more folks around here had the sense to realize that a lot of the play calling was out of necessity.


weird how it wasnt a neccessity a year earlier:coffee:

Lonestar
02-21-2010, 03:54 PM
It was McDaniels himself in one of his last interviews that pointed out that Kyle was so engrossed in learning the new "system" that he rarely had time to hit the gym and build strength and stamina and should have more time to do that this offseason. Once again, This isn't me talking, this is McDaniels.

I'm so tired of people using Cassell as some kind of example of McDaniels' coaching greatness. Cassell sat for 4 years and learned from Brady. By the time he took his first snap, he had Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Ben Watson, and your boy Jabar Gaffney to throw to and a damned good o-line and running game behind him. Cassel stunk it up until he got the best gift he could've gotten... The Denver Broncos defense on prime time. As soon as Champ went our with a groin pull, Cassel "lit it up" throwing TDs to Randy Moss all night.

Until then, Cassel didn't do very well and wasn't any more than decent after that. Cassel got the same treatment that Orton got this year, checkdown, bubble screen, checkdown, bubble screen, and more checkdown. His #'s were high (like Orton's - exactly what happens when you play in a shotgun spread, short passing, high % throw offense) but they still failed to make the playoffs or win their division.


IIRC 11-5 and the only reason they lost the division was MIA pulled that wild cat out of their ass on the first game of the year with them. Something NO ONE had ever seen before.


Hey I'd be happy with 11-5 every year how about Y'all.

broncobryce
02-21-2010, 04:16 PM
weird how it wasnt a neccessity a year earlier:coffee:

That was shanahan's like 15th year coaching Denver? I would hope the players knew that system by then.

Lonestar
02-21-2010, 04:18 PM
That was shanahan's like 15th year coaching Denver? I would hope the players knew that system by then.

:salute:
And they were great between the 20's and still sucked at scoring as well as playoffs.

topscribe
02-21-2010, 06:21 PM
Exactly.

But I think we've seen Orton's game enough over 5 years to know what he is, and what he isn't.

The first year, he was a rookie. His second and third years, he had a total of
three games on the field. So his fourth year (2008) was only his second on the
field. He was drawing compliments from all over the league for his play, then he
suffered a high ankle sprain in his push-off ankle, and so his play understandably
suffered during the final seven games.

So Orton came to Denver essentially as a two-year player. He came into a
radically new system with an absolutely new supporting cast all around him,
from the O-line to the RBs to the WRs to the TEs to the coaches, in only his
third year on the field.

He played the first few games in Denver with a compound dislocation of the
index finger on his throwing hand. Then he played the last half of the year
on a high ankle sprain.

And you're telling me you have seen everything you need to see to judge. I
understand that because you seemed to have your mind made up before any
documentation ever came out.

But it would seem that a "wait to see what he can do in a familiar system
with a familiar team in a healthy state" would manifest a more knowledgeable
football mind.

But I will tell you one thing: Despite all the injuries and obstacles, Orton still
managed 3,800 yards, a 63% comp ratio, and an 89.8 QBR. Hell of an
accomplishment, if you ask me . . .

-----

Northman
02-21-2010, 06:57 PM
IIRC 11-5 and the only reason they lost the division was MIA pulled that wild cat out of their ass on the first game of the year with them. Something NO ONE had ever seen before.


Hey I'd be happy with 11-5 every year how about Y'all.

Actually, i can swear ive seen Denver miss the playoffs at 11-5, or at least 10-6 but it would of been a while ago.

Lonestar
02-21-2010, 11:08 PM
Actually, i can swear ive seen Denver miss the playoffs at 11-5, or at least 10-6 but it would of been a while ago.

I will still take 11-5 + every year and not bitch if we do not make the playoffs just write it off as their were at least 2 other wild card teams with better records That will not happen very often at all.

arapaho2
02-21-2010, 11:56 PM
That was shanahan's like 15th year coaching Denver? I would hope the players knew that system by then.


that explains it...ryan harris...clady...hillis...weigman...kuper..royal.. ..they all just automaticaly knew the system...because the coach was here 14 years :coffee:

arapaho2
02-22-2010, 12:07 AM
The first year, he was a rookie. His second and third years, he had a total of
three games on the field. So his fourth year (2008) was only his second on the
field. He was drawing compliments from all over the league for his play, then he
suffered a high ankle sprain in his push-off ankle, and so his play understandably
suffered during the final seven games.

So Orton came to Denver essentially as a two-year player. He came into a
radically new system with an absolutely new supporting cast all around him,
from the O-line to the RBs to the WRs to the TEs to the coaches, in only his
third year on the field.

He played the first few games in Denver with a compound dislocation of the
index finger on his throwing hand. Then he played the last half of the year
on a high ankle sprain.

And you're telling me you have seen everything you need to see to judge. I
understand that because you seemed to have your mind made up before any
documentation ever came out.

But it would seem that a "wait to see what he can do in a familiar system
with a familiar team in a healthy state" would manifest a more knowledgeable
football mind.

But I will tell you one thing: Despite all the injuries and obstacles, Orton still
managed 3,800 yards, a 63% comp ratio, and an 89.8 QBR. Hell of an
accomplishment, if you ask me . . .

-----


so we can reasonably assume that 2nd and 3rd year qbs who are backups..get zero coaching...no snaps...no film work...no coaching sessions...no practise....i mean if were gonna just dismiss his 2nd,3rd years because he only started 3 games

as far as a new radical system..whats so radical about takeing the ball from shotgun...and throwing it to his number one read the majority of times....doesnt sound to complex actually

and again when over 60% of your completions are shorter then ten yards...im fairly sure we can attribute alot of these stats to the fact they'r easy throws.

as or his stats again..what i look at is the team stat..and as a offense we dropped in every stat...and thats not reasonable

Tangerine
02-22-2010, 01:14 AM
so we can reasonably assume that 2nd and 3rd year qbs who are backups..get zero coaching...no snaps...no film work...no coaching sessions...no practise....i mean if were gonna just dismiss his 2nd,3rd years because he only started 3 games

as far as a new radical system..whats so radical about takeing the ball from shotgun...and throwing it to his number one read the majority of times....doesnt sound to complex actually

and again when over 60% of your completions are shorter then ten yards...im fairly sure we can attribute alot of these stats to the fact they'r easy throws.

as or his stats again..what i look at is the team stat..and as a offense we dropped in every stat...and thats not reasonable

It's also a very similar system to what he ran in college at Purdue, as was often stated both by Orton and the fans at the start of the season. I don't know where people get this idea that Orton never ran this kind of offense, it's not new and radical, he did it college.

topscribe
02-22-2010, 01:37 AM
so we can reasonably assume that 2nd and 3rd year qbs who are backups..get zero coaching...no snaps...no film work...no coaching sessions...no practise....i mean if were gonna just dismiss his 2nd,3rd years because he only started 3 games

as far as a new radical system..whats so radical about takeing the ball from shotgun...and throwing it to his number one read the majority of times....doesnt sound to complex actually

and again when over 60% of your completions are shorter then ten yards...im fairly sure we can attribute alot of these stats to the fact they'r easy throws.

as or his stats again..what i look at is the team stat..and as a offense we dropped in every stat...and thats not reasonable

You remind me of a guy sitting on the drinking side of the bar, who thinks he
has become knowledgeable of bartending because he has watched the
bartender.

Gee, what's the difference between throwing the ball in Chicago's system and
throwing the ball in Denver's system? Why don't you ask McDaniels or Orton
about that? They are the ones who have talked about how radically different
the two systems are.

Wow. :tsk:

-----

topscribe
02-22-2010, 01:41 AM
It's also a very similar system to what he ran in college at Purdue, as was often stated both by Orton and the fans at the start of the season. I don't know where people get this idea that Orton never ran this kind of offense, it's not new and radical, he did it college.

There is nothing similar between college and the pros. People who have been
there, done that will tell you that because that is what they have said.

There is also a difference between being a coach or a player and a fan sitting in
front of the TV, watching the action between Miller Lite commercials and
handfuls of chips.

Let's stop trying to be experts on the game and start listening to the experts.

-----

Lonestar
02-22-2010, 03:50 AM
that explains it...ryan harris...clady...hillis...weigman...kuper..royal.. ..they all just automaticaly knew the system...because the coach was here 14 years :coffee:

No because the scheme was in place and everyone but Clady and Royal were old timers in Football.

Clady stepped in between hamilton and Graham that had his back if he made a mistake. But he was also used to playing the same system in college at the same place. Kuper had been in the system for two years taking snaps in the ZBS and you forgot harris with your diatribe. He also had been taking snaps the prior year. You for get that in the ZBS there are 4 other players on the LOS plus any TE's to help out. as for WR royal did an exceptional job but then all he had to know were HIS ROUTES, the QB already knew where he was supposed to be in them.

Casey had been a starter for 12 years or so when he had to take over for nalen not like he was a rookie ..

mike did not have to teach the coaches the scheme before the coaches could teach it to the players.

So your weak argument falls flat when comparing apples and bananas. Just admit you do not like Josh and Kyle and let it go at that. admit your not willing to see if Orton can do the job. that ow wrote off everyone to failure the minute mike and then jay left dove valley.

Just admit to everyone that already knows your a fan of jay and mike and not of the broncos. It will be easier for you once you admit it and then let it go.

dogfish
02-22-2010, 04:02 AM
No because the scheme was in place and everyone but Clady and Royal were old timers in Football.

Clady stepped in between hamilton and Graham that had his back if he made a mistake. But he was also used to playing the same system in college at the same place. Kuper had been in the system for two years taking snaps in the ZBS and you forgot harris with your diatribe. He also had been taking snaps the prior year. You for get that in the ZBS there are 4 other players on the LOS plus any TE's to help out. as for WR royal did an exceptional job but then all he had to know were HIS ROUTES, the QB already knew where he was supposed to be in them.

Casey had been a starter for 12 years or so when he had to take over for nalen not like he was a rookie ..

mike did not have to teach the coaches the scheme before the coaches could teach it to the players.

So your weak argument falls flat when comparing apples and bananas. Just admit you do not like Josh and Kyle and let it go at that. admit your not willing to see if Orton can do the job. that ow wrote off everyone to failure the minute mike and then jay left dove valley.

Just admit to everyone that already knows your a fan of jay and mike and not of the broncos. It will be easier for you once you admit it and then let it go.

i get tired of rap's agenda too, but is it really fair for you to tell him he's not a "real" broncos fan just because he hammers the coach? you spent the last five-plus years KILLING the coach that took us to our only championships-- does that make you a shitty fan?

if it doesn't, then questioning Mc8-8 first-year head coach shouldn't make rap a "bad fan". . .

Lonestar
02-22-2010, 04:07 AM
i get tired of rap's agenda too, but is it really fair for you to tell him he's not a "real" broncos fan just because he hammers the coach? you spent the last five-plus years KILLING the coach that took us to our only championships-- does that make you a shitty fan?

if it doesn't, then questioning Mc8-8 first-year head coach shouldn't make rap a "bad fan". . .


perhaps you intrepeted as he is not a "real" bronco fans. But that is not what I said. I said he was a fan of jay or mike or maybe even both. Since both of them were broncos he can still love them and be their fans.

Once he admits it then he is on the road to recovery. IMHO.

As for me wanting a real GM instead of mike 5 years sounds about right, every since ashley was drafted and failed that was about the turning point for me. Never wanted mike fired during that time nor did I wish him bad luck, just wanted a professional GM in charge of players and scouting. SOme one that could find his ass with both hands, it was well document at the time he could not. to have one great draft in all of those years after the SB is almost criminal. how many dead cap dollars did we have year after year. how many players had to re do their contracts of r that time frame to spread the cap space around. how may players did we have to cut because we could not afford them.

I think I was correct about mike and his personnel busts. many here could care less if we were winning even if it was on the toe of Jason.

Night all time for some well deserved sleep.

dogfish
02-22-2010, 04:13 AM
perhaps you intrepeted as he is not a "real" bronco fans. But that is not what I said. I said he was a fan of jay or mike or maybe even both. Since both of them were broncos he can still love them and be their fans.

Once he admits it then he is on the road to recovery. IMHO.


Just admit to everyone that already knows your a fan of jay and mike and not of the broncos.


mmm-hmm. . . . .



:heh:

Northman
02-22-2010, 07:02 AM
I will still take 11-5 + every year and not bitch if we do not make the playoffs just write it off as their were at least 2 other wild card teams with better records That will not happen very often at all.

Well, we aint there yet.

frenchfan
02-22-2010, 10:06 AM
I'm so tired of people using Cassell as some kind of example of McDaniels' coaching greatness. Cassell sat for 4 years and learned from Brady. Well... didn't Kubiak sat many years and learned from Elway? I can't remember a game that Broncos won without Elway before the Shanny's era...

About surrounding cast, I do agree though... Look at 49ers in the 80's... They were able to win with their 3rd QB... When you have many things around, then it's easier for a QB...

Now, it's one thing to be a football fan and another to be an expert... If many people in the NFL and who know the business say that McD is a great offensive mind, I have no reason to not believe them... Anyway, will McD be a great coach? I don't know... Time will tell...

Hummm... wait, this thread was about BM first, no? :confused:
:laugh:
So back to the topic, I think BM is a very good WR and deserve a better paycheck... Now, the great question is : does he want to really give 200% with the Broncos? If the answer is yes, then we can pay him (and hope he won't do something stupid off-field).
If the answer is no and we have an opportunity to have good value for him, go for it...
I have mixed feelings about this question... In a short term, keeping BM should be better... In the long run? I don't know... Again, the main point is how BM will be motivated to play for us... That's all...

Last... I think all those debates are useless... I can understand we all are fans and we want the best for our team... We don't agree on everything about what should be done and so on... That's ok... But our team, our players, our coaches need our support... Let's McD have is 2nd year with our support and hope... We'll see if things are going the right way or not...
And frankly, there is nothing else we can do... We can roll over the floor crying, that won't change anything... McD will be our coach next year... Orton will be our QB (and I'm still comfortable with this choice until we find a better answer). Wish them all the success possible guys ! That's our team
:salute:

Peace. :beer:

arapaho2
02-22-2010, 12:44 PM
You remind me of a guy sitting on the drinking side of the bar, who thinks he
has become knowledgeable of bartending because he has watched the
bartender.

Gee, what's the difference between throwing the ball in Chicago's system and
throwing the ball in Denver's system? Why don't you ask McDaniels or Orton
about that? They are the ones who have talked about how radically different
the two systems are.

Wow. :tsk:

-----

gee top i guess im dumb to think...hey your first read is marshall on a 5yard curl ..or bubble screen...from shotgun..is not a radical change that should take years to master:coffee:

the terminology may be differant...but it shouldnt take years to master..throw a short pass to marshall

arapaho2
02-22-2010, 12:54 PM
No because the scheme was in place and everyone but Clady and Royal were old timers in Football.

Clady stepped in between hamilton and Graham that had his back if he made a mistake. But he was also used to playing the same system in college at the same place. Kuper had been in the system for two years taking snaps in the ZBS and you forgot harris with your diatribe. He also had been taking snaps the prior year. You for get that in the ZBS there are 4 other players on the LOS plus any TE's to help out. as for WR royal did an exceptional job but then all he had to know were HIS ROUTES, the QB already knew where he was supposed to be in them.

Casey had been a starter for 12 years or so when he had to take over for nalen not like he was a rookie ..

mike did not have to teach the coaches the scheme before the coaches could teach it to the players.

So your weak argument falls flat when comparing apples and bananas. Just admit you do not like Josh and Kyle and let it go at that. admit your not willing to see if Orton can do the job. that ow wrote off everyone to failure the minute mike and then jay left dove valley.

Just admit to everyone that already knows your a fan of jay and mike and not of the broncos. It will be easier for you once you admit it and then let it go.


and there it is....the old "if you dont like who i like then your not a fan of the broncos"...infantile at best...par for the course with you

because i dont think orton is anything great...will never be anything great..and isnt a qb i would want to lead us in the future...doesnt mean im not a bronco fan sonny..i was a long time bronco fan when you were still shitting your pampers...and will be one till im dust and bones

because i think mcd made many monumetal mistakes doesnt mean i didnt agree with fireing shanny...i fully supported that ...i got no time for a rookie coach with a swollen head to learn how to coach a team...it also doesnt mean i dont support the team

i guess when you didnt support cutler or shanny...YOU WERE NOT A REAL BRONCO FAN....GASP!!! YOUR A BANDWAGON FAN:rolleyes:

Northman
02-22-2010, 01:09 PM
gee top i guess im dumb to think...hey your first read is marshall on a 5yard curl ..or bubble screen...from shotgun..is not a radical change that should take years to master:coffee:

the terminology may be differant...but it shouldnt take years to master..throw a short pass to marshall

If its really that radical i should get the HC gig. I was throwing 5 yd curls in High School. :lol:

Lonestar
02-22-2010, 02:17 PM
and there it is....the old "if you dont like who i like then your not a fan of the broncos"...infantile at best...par for the course with you

because i dont think orton is anything great...will never be anything great..and isnt a qb i would want to lead us in the future...doesnt mean im not a bronco fan sonny..i was a long time bronco fan when you were still shitting your pampers...and will be one till im dust and bones

because i think mcd made many monumetal mistakes doesnt mean i didnt agree with fireing shanny...i fully supported that ...i got no time for a rookie coach with a swollen head to learn how to coach a team...it also doesnt mean i dont support the team

i guess when you didnt support cutler or shanny...YOU WERE NOT A REAL BRONCO FAN....GASP!!! YOUR A BANDWAGON FAN:rolleyes:


Sonny, Aye, unless you were at the first game they played or before that watching them at their training facility, perhaps I had season tickets from 1960 till I permanently moved out of state in 1979. I probable have more time standing in the line at the urinals at old bears stadium than you do on earth.

You have made it plain that you dod not like either Josh or Orton.. If you have no time for a HC then you do not really support the team. You can't have it both ways.

That is just a fact of life.

Just to make myself clear here Josh is not going any where and because of that MOST likely Orton is going to be our QB this coming year.

If you are not on board with that it is your problem and you will take crap for it. from a lot of folks that are tired of your incessant whining.

I took a lot of crap, because I thought mike was a piss poor judge of talent and made HUGE mistakes in signing mega buck washed up FA's.

For blowing in the draft from 1999 to 2005.

For the most part I was correct. I never wanted to have him fired as HC just get the **** out of the way and allow a real GM to choose the talent. Let him coach it when it got here.

Northman
02-22-2010, 04:17 PM
Lets keep it on topic people and not get personal.

arapaho2
02-22-2010, 05:14 PM
Sonny, Aye, unless you were at the first game they played or before that watching them at their training facility, perhaps I had season tickets from 1960 till I permanently moved out of state in 1979. I probable have more time standing in the line at the urinals at old bears stadium than you do on earth.

You have made it plain that you dod not like either Josh or Orton.. If you have no time for a HC then you do not really support the team. You can't have it both ways.

That is just a fact of life.

Just to make myself clear here Josh is not going any where and because of that MOST likely Orton is going to be our QB this coming year.

If you are not on board with that it is your problem and you will take crap for it. from a lot of folks that are tired of your incessant whining.

I took a lot of crap, because I thought mike was a piss poor judge of talent and made HUGE mistakes in signing mega buck washed up FA's.

For blowing in the draft from 1999 to 2005.

For the most part I was correct. I never wanted to have him fired as HC just get the **** out of the way and allow a real GM to choose the talent. Let him coach it when it got here.

SO BASICALLY WHAT YOUR SAYING IS THE 6-7 YEARS PRIOR TO MCD COMEING TO TOWN...YOU DIDNT SUPPORT THE BRONCOS RIGHT?..ARE YOU NOT A TRUE FAN? BECAUSE BEFORE THIS BOARD WAS CREATED US OLDTIMERS CAN ALL REMEMBER YOU CONSTANTLY CRYING AND SPEWEING HATE OVER SHANNY AND THEN CUTLER

it goes both ways:coffee:

rcsodak
02-22-2010, 10:12 PM
Kyle Orton does NOT have a stronger arm than Manning. Thats absurd, and untrue.

link?

:coffee:

rcsodak
02-22-2010, 10:16 PM
Forget the fact that Orton threw the ball 74 yards as a high school senior,
before he was fully developed. Forget the fact that Manning managed 68 yards
in the 2002 QB Challenge.

Ravage knows it all. He doesn't need to document anything. If Ravage says it,
that's final. So he has said. So it shall be done.

:coffee:

-----

Quote the raven, nevermore.....

:lol:

rcsodak
02-22-2010, 10:22 PM
In Chicago? Really? You think so? Cutler was sacked more, true. Cutler threw more interceptions, true. Cuter's receivers were better? Absolutely FALSE.

Cutler converted more third downs? True.

Reading Comprehension 101:

I am comparing Orton's 2008 season WITH THE BEARS, to Cutler's 2009 season WITH THE BEARS. Same coach/oline/oc/rb', etc.

Cutler most CERTAINLY had a better wr corp (& TE), thank you very much.


....next....

:coffee:

rcsodak
02-22-2010, 10:34 PM
so we can reasonably assume that 2nd and 3rd year qbs who are backups..get zero coaching...no snaps...no film work...no coaching sessions...no practise....i mean if were gonna just dismiss his 2nd,3rd years because he only started 3 games

as far as a new radical system..whats so radical about takeing the ball from shotgun...and throwing it to his number one read the majority of times....doesnt sound to complex actually

and again when over 60% of your completions are shorter then ten yards...im fairly sure we can attribute alot of these stats to the fact they'r easy throws.

as or his stats again..what i look at is the team stat..and as a offense we dropped in every stat...and thats not reasonable

You people......

What part of INJURED do you not understand?

Ya really think they participate in all the activities along with the rest of the active players?

Oh, wait....

...that shoots to shit your point you're trying so hard to make...

...soooo sorrrrry. :rolleyes:

rcsodak
02-22-2010, 10:39 PM
mmm-hmm. . . . .



:heh:

Spend some time, now, on finding their positive posts of the team.


Good luck with that. ;)

rcsodak
02-22-2010, 10:45 PM
and there it is....the old "if you dont like who i like then your not a fan of the broncos"...infantile at best...par for the course with you

because i dont think orton is anything great...will never be anything great..and isnt a qb i would want to lead us in the future...doesnt mean im not a bronco fan sonny..i was a long time bronco fan when you were still shitting your pampers...and will be one till im dust and bones

because i think mcd made many monumetal mistakes doesnt mean i didnt agree with fireing shanny...i fully supported that ...i got no time for a rookie coach with a swollen head to learn how to coach a team...it also doesnt mean i dont support the team

i guess when you didnt support cutler or shanny...YOU WERE NOT A REAL BRONCO FAN....GASP!!! YOUR A BANDWAGON FAN:rolleyes:

Jr supported Shanny the coach. Get your statements straight. That should be easier than a bubble screen, even for you. :coffee:

As for cutler, he was a high dollar investment; lost more games than he won; always blamed his teammates; constantly sulked on the sidelines; whined his way out of town. Gee, yeah....who WOULDN'T want to support him!? :rolleyes:

arapaho2
02-22-2010, 10:50 PM
Jr supported Shanny the coach. Get your statements straight. That should be easier than a bubble screen, even for you. :coffee:

As for cutler, he was a high dollar investment; lost more games than he won; always blamed his teammates; constantly sulked on the sidelines; whined his way out of town. Gee, yeah....who WOULDN'T want to support him!? :rolleyes:



wrong Jr was up in shannys grill over drafting cutler...go research him on the other forum

its common knowledge