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tsiguy96
02-14-2010, 08:36 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_14398660?source=rss


An occasionally self-deprecating humorist, Pat Bowlen often acknowledges he is getting old.

Not that this means the Broncos owner has grown deaf to his fan base.

He hears people grumble about his head coach, Josh McDaniels. But Bowlen wants his fan base to understand a primary reason he hired McDaniels away from the New England Patriots last year. It's because he wanted change.

"New England has been a very successful club and he has brought a lot of the experience he had there to Denver," Bowlen said. "And that doesn't bother me. He wants people to toe the line. He doesn't cut a lot of slack to players. He expects his coaches to be there and working hard."

In two recent interviews with The Denver Post, Bowlen and his right-hand man, team chief operating officer Joe Ellis, acknowledged that after 14 years of Mike Shanahan control at Dove Valley, the "New England Way" was a difficult adjustment for many Broncos fans, players and coaches, and even media.

The Broncos are more inclined to call it the "McDaniels Way" because their coach is nothing if not his own man. The most obvious common denominator between Bill Belichick's Patriots and McDaniels' Broncos is a belief in a starless system.

"Josh is a principled person and he's going to call for accountability from the first player on the roster to the 53rd," Ellis said. "His belief and need for team and the team concept, he's not going to waver from that. And frankly, that was something that was refreshing. In the interview process, that gave him a leg up on other candidates."

Part of the problem with the 2009 Broncos, who finished 8-8 after a 6-0 start, may have been that more time was needed to sort through the trial-and-error period of blending the proper player-roster balance.

Star quarterback Jay Cutler was gone before he took his first snap. Brandon Marshall, arguably a bigger star as a receiver, was trouble at the start of training camp and again in the season's final week. Tight end Tony Scheffler also got sideways with the new coach.

Cutler, Marshall and Scheffler were stars in Shanahan's West Coast system, creating the impression the Broncos' locker room was divided: Shanahan's guys and McDaniels' guys.

"That nonsense has to go away," Ellis said. "There's only one locker room, there's only one team, and that's the Denver Broncos. You can go back in history to Dan Reeves and some of the coaches and players he brought with him. Mike Shanahan in 1995, look at both the coaches and players who came here from the 49ers. And now we have some guys that have come over from New England who are familiar with Josh. It happens all the time in the league and it's happened for many, many years.

"Yes, change is difficult. But if players or coaches aren't willing to accept the changes and this direction, then they probably don't buy into this concept of putting the team first. And they probably aren't going to last long here."

Not all of Shanahan's holdovers struggled with the new regime. See Elvis Dumervil and his NFL-leading 17 sacks. Now the task of getting Dumervil more help.

On the Friday after Denver's season ended with a deflating 44-24 home loss to lowly Kansas City — the Broncos' eighth defeat in their last 10 games — McDaniels, Bowlen and Ellis gathered for a 3 1/2-hour meeting.

McDaniels presented his thoughts on what went wrong and changes he felt needed to be made in the coming weeks. The NFL's free agency and trading period opens in 19 days and the first round of the league's draft will be held April 22.

Bowlen offered his thoughts to his coach. After a fourth consecutive season without a playoff appearance, and only one playoff win in 11 seasons, Bowlen isn't looking for status quo.

"There's going to be changes," Bowlen said. "As I look at the team, I think we have a solid football team. There are some areas of the team where'd we like to be better. I have talked with Josh about that. I know what his feelings are. And I've got a great deal of faith in his ability to recognize that and ability to go out and execute it."

good to see. mcdaniels isnt dumb and knows where the real weaknesses of this team are, i hope he fixes em though!

SoCalImport
02-14-2010, 09:01 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_14398660?source=rss



good to see. mcdaniels isnt dumb and knows where the real weaknesses of this team are, i hope he fixes em though!

Happily, I think most agree that Coach McD is anything but "dumb". that's not the accusation that's being pointed at him anyway.
"Inexperience, Single minded, Megalomaniacal" He's been called all of these, and I can see where his detractors see these traits.

I however, think He's doing a good job.

(god, this part of the off season is boring. Bring on the DRAFT already!)

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 09:28 AM
I'm glad to see that Bowlen and Ellis support McDaniels (I hope they do they hired him). This year, we get to see McDaniels operate the ship his way, no more distractions (unless he himself decides to keep Marshall and Scheffler who were distractions last year then it's on him). I'm looking forward to seeing the "new look" Broncos and having a team that plays to win every game and doesn't flame out in December.

tsiguy96
02-14-2010, 10:09 AM
I'm glad to see that Bowlen and Ellis support McDaniels (I hope they do they hired him). This year, we get to see McDaniels operate the ship his way, no more distractions (unless he himself decides to keep Marshall and Scheffler who were distractions last year then it's on him). I'm looking forward to seeing the "new look" Broncos and having a team that plays to win every game and doesn't flame out in December.

i dont see any way we trade marshall. we wont get value for him, mcdaniels knows how good he is on the field and isnt going to give him away for less than what hes worth. same thing with the cutler situation, the drama and BS may be a distraction, but it ultimately doesnt reduce his value given the talent (or in cutlers case, perceived talent :elefant:) he has

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 10:41 AM
i dont see any way we trade marshall. we wont get value for him, mcdaniels knows how good he is on the field and isnt going to give him away for less than what hes worth. same thing with the cutler situation, the drama and BS may be a distraction, but it ultimately doesnt reduce his value given the talent (or in cutlers case, perceived talent :elefant:) he has

The problem is, it will turn into an excuse if we don't win. Mcdaniels never had a problem publicly calling out players last year. Marshall, the O-line, Scheffler, the defense.

Marshall is a great player, but everyone and their brother knows that McDaniels has issues with Marshall because McDaniels always made it public. Now, if the Broncos struggle, McDaniels can simply blame Marshall for being a distraction to the "team".

McDaniels is great at making excuses at pressers. I want to eliminate those excuses.

Northman
02-14-2010, 10:42 AM
This year, we get to see McDaniels operate the ship his way,

Yep, the grace period is over. Time for some better results.

Lonestar
02-14-2010, 12:40 PM
Did not sound like he is on a short leash, like some think.

Sounds to me that Pat and Joe are buying into what he is trying to do.

They embraced the change to go with the TEAM concept after seeing what the star concept had not acomplished the past DECADE.

They said they are making changes and expect lots more. Sounds to me that other than perhaps Clady on offense we could see an entire NEW Oline. Joshs FA and draft choices will stay and the rest if they do not get on the TEAM concept band wagon are trade fodder OR RFA looking for draft choices in return.

FA will be interesting to see IF any of the owners give long term big/guaranteed contracts or NOT.

For all the doubters (read haters) get read to yell and whine about your perchieved wrong moves that Josh has done and will do to complete the transformation to a TEAM again.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

tomjonesrocks
02-14-2010, 12:51 PM
:rolleyes:

Just *what* exactly was Bowlen going to say? Even if he felt he made a mistake why on earth would Bowlen say so publicly?

atwater27
02-14-2010, 01:12 PM
I am just glad for hope and change.

rationalfan
02-14-2010, 01:35 PM
The problem is, it will turn into an excuse if we don't win. Mcdaniels never had a problem publicly calling out players last year. Marshall, the O-line, Scheffler, the defense.

Marshall is a great player, but everyone and their brother knows that McDaniels has issues with Marshall because McDaniels always made it public. Now, if the Broncos struggle, McDaniels can simply blame Marshall for being a distraction to the "team".

McDaniels is great at making excuses at pressers. I want to eliminate those excuses.

not to devolve this into a mcd vs. shanny thread, but i find it irritating that people act like shanny, or any coach for that matter, never called out his players in public. it's a motivational tool. ask parcells. or bellichick. or shanny.

rcsodak
02-14-2010, 01:41 PM
Happily, I think most agree that Coach McD is anything but "dumb". that's not the accusation that's being pointed at him anyway.
"Inexperience, Single minded, Megalomaniacal" He's been called all of these, and I can see where his detractors see these traits.

I however, think He's doing a good job.

(god, this part of the off season is boring. Bring on the DRAFT already!)

Funny, but I saw those same traits in Shanny when he first started out.

Problem is, most of the whiners weren't around back when Shanny was first cutting his teeth....


...they only saw him win the 2SB's while having a HoF QB, All-Pro Oline/RB/WR's, etc.


I keep falling back to when some on here were saying they'd "be fine" with a 3-4 win season or two, just to get a new HC in town.

I yelled "BS" back then, and was proved right.

Wouldn't surprise me one iota to find them to be the ones belly-aching about the 8-8 season. :lol:

Lonestar
02-14-2010, 01:42 PM
:rolleyes:

Just *what* exactly was Bowlen going to say? Even if he felt he made a mistake why on earth would Bowlen say so publicly?


Nothing he would say nothing.

Simple concept do not add fuel to the fire on either side.

All he would have had to say is Josh is the HC and makes the decisions on players.

Instead he publicly stated that he embraces the change to a TEAM concept and getting away for primadonnas.

it was the reason he was hired to bring it to DEN over the others that were interviewed that would not have made the changes necessary to move it to the NE concept.

rcsodak
02-14-2010, 01:45 PM
i dont see any way we trade marshall. we wont get value for him, mcdaniels knows how good he is on the field and isnt going to give him away for less than what hes worth. same thing with the cutler situation, the drama and BS may be a distraction, but it ultimately doesnt reduce his value given the talent (or in cutlers case, perceived talent :elefant:) he has


The most obvious common denominator between Bill Belichick's Patriots and McDaniels' Broncos is a belief in a starless system.
This alone tells me BMarsh needs to do a complete 180 or he's gone. TEAM FIRST!
What's he going to do the first time he ends up with 75catches for 850yds and no Pro Bowl? Cry for a trade? Whining how he's being "underutilized"? (doubt that, too big of word)

Nomad
02-14-2010, 01:47 PM
Problem is, most of the whiners weren't around back when Shanny was first cutting his teeth....
:lol:

They didn't have internet forums back then so it wasn't well known amongst BRONCO fans but there were whiners then he became God!!;):D

rcsodak
02-14-2010, 01:48 PM
The problem is, it will turn into an excuse if we don't win. Mcdaniels never had a problem publicly calling out players last year. Marshall, the O-line, Scheffler, the defense.

Marshall is a great player, but everyone and their brother knows that McDaniels has issues with Marshall because McDaniels always made it public. Now, if the Broncos struggle, McDaniels can simply blame Marshall for being a distraction to the "team".

McDaniels is great at making excuses at pressers. I want to eliminate those excuses.

Where did McD have "issues' that weren't warranted? BIG difference between having them and just proclaiming them without reason.

When you gonna take off your "hate" glasses?

I suppose Indy's owner "has issues" with his Oline since HE went public after the SB loss?

rcsodak
02-14-2010, 01:52 PM
not to devolve this into a mcd vs. shanny thread, but i find it irritating that people act like shanny, or any coach for that matter, never called out his players in public. it's a motivational tool. ask parcells. or bellichick. or shanny.

Careful.....making rational posts is not allowed in any McD thread.

Northman
02-14-2010, 03:15 PM
Did not sound like he is on a short leash, like some think.




Then you werent paying attention when he got hired. Sure, he may have a couple of years to get his shit together but dont kid yourself. Bowlen didnt hire McDaniels to just be "mediocre". Bowlen stated from day 1 that he wants to win and to win another SB. That wasnt cue for lets take another decade to get there. :lol:

scott.475
02-14-2010, 03:21 PM
These articles are worthless, because what would you expect an owner, especially someone like Pat, to say? Good or bad, most owners will come out and say they have faith in their coaches, etc. Not saying it is bad, just that the owner will not come out and say "I have lost all faith in the coach, blah, blah, blah". All I am saying is that these articles are not a true look into everything going on in Pat's mind.

I hope Josh can turn things around this year, but right now I am just kind of ambivalent toward him and am waiting for him to sway me to his side.

I have thought about this quite a bit, and I have had plenty of rage toward McD, no doubt. But you know, I think if he had come in and just said for all to hear that he was going to basically blow-up the Broncos (and I don't mean that in a bad way) and essentially rebuild from the ground up, maybe there would not be so much rage and anger from those who are not sold on him yet because at least our expectations would have been checked well before hand.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 03:26 PM
not to devolve this into a mcd vs. shanny thread, but i find it irritating that people act like shanny, or any coach for that matter, never called out his players in public. it's a motivational tool. ask parcells. or bellichick. or shanny.

Yeah but most coaches don't, and even those that do aren't rookies who have already alienated some players and fans from them through their actions. Most coaches tend to try to prove themselves and improve the team vs just trying to model it in their own image from day one realizing that it is impossible to do in one season.

I understand what you're saying, but no team underwent as much drama and ridicule in the first season with a rookie HC as the Broncos did this year. If not for the blazing 6-0 start to somewhat offset the 2-8 finish, they'd still be laughing at us. Don't try to sit back and act like McDaniels did things "professionally" this year.

He has ZERO credibility with a lot of the fans and the media right now because he hasn't established that he deserves it. All of his public tantrums and criticisms didn't get us any more wins and surely didn't endear anyone outside the organization to us. They showed a complete lack of professionalism on his part. Airing your dirty laundry in public is NEVER the right place to do it and pleading your case to the court of public opinion just makes you look bad. McDaniels has to learn this. Most of all, he can't use it as some kind of excuse. This is year 2, all the excuses are gone now. Time to produce.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 03:32 PM
Then you werent paying attention when he got hired. Sure, he may have a couple of years to get his shit together but dont kid yourself. Bowlen didnt hire McDaniels to just be "mediocre". Bowlen stated from day 1 that he wants to win and to win another SB. That wasnt cue for lets take another decade to get there. :lol:

Exactly, had Bowlen wanted 8-8, he'd have just kept Shanahan. McDaniels has to produce something this year, at least a winning record and probably playoffs or I don't think he'll be back (after the lock out that is).

I'm not saying we need a superbowl win, or maybe even a playoff win, just a playoff appearance after being competitive late in the year. Going into the bye week, Bowlen looked like a Genius for hiring McDaniels, by the end of the season with all the drama that went on, he's been put in a very awkward position in most interviews with guys asking him questions about his mental capacity as an owner... OUCH!

T.K.O.
02-14-2010, 03:36 PM
because any coach can and should produce a sb team if they are given 2 years to do so.......:laugh:
i think that bowlen (unlike alot of people apparently) realizes that the nfl is no place to expect instant results when you start implementing an entirely new system on both sides of the ball.
and you can have all the talent in the world,or some of the best coaches and even a comination of the 2 and still get beat on "any given sunday".
he was patient with shanny after the sb years and i would expect him not to show any knee jerk reactions after his team went 8-8 for what amounts to a fourth year in a row.
i think it was very professional of mcD to imediatly take some of the blame for the shortcomings last season.and pointed the finger squarely at himself as an area that needs change/improvement.
why dont any of the haters give him credit for that?
he admitted that being a rook hc has its chalenges and he intends to learn from them and make better decisions in the future. not the tantrum throwing egomaniac that some have made him out to be.:salute:

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 03:48 PM
because any coach can and should produce a sb team if they are given 2 years to do so.......:laugh:
i think that bowlen (unlike alot of people apparently) realizes that the nfl is no place to expect instant results when you start implementing an entirely new system on both sides of the ball.
and you can have all the talent in the world,or some of the best coaches and even a comination of the 2 and still get beat on "any given sunday".
he was patient with shanny after the sb years and i would expect him not to show any knee jerk reactions after his team went 8-8 for what amounts to a fourth year in a row.
i think it was very professional of mcD to imediatly take some of the blame for the shortcomings last season.and pointed the finger squarely at himself as an area that needs change/improvement.
why dont any of the haters give him credit for that?
he admitted that being a rook hc has its chalenges and he intends to learn from them and make better decisions in the future. not the tantrum throwing egomaniac that some have made him out to be.:salute:

First of all TKO, this was an 8-8 team before McDaniels got here. Shanahan was FIRED because they failed to make the playoffs and the defense stunk. Now, we failed to make the playoffs and the offense stinks. We aren't he Detroit Lions or Cleveland Steamers who need to be rebuilt. We just need fixing in some areas.

Bowlen is not going to allow McDaniels the opportunity to tear this team completely down, go 4-12 for a few years to truly "rebuild" then hope we get back to the top of the mountain. If we don't win now, what McDaniels was brought in for (Bowlen said so himself at McDaniels' intro presser) do you think Bowlen will give McDaniels much more time? How much time did he give Phillips? 2 years. Shanahan? It's hard to say because Shanahan was 13-3 his second year. Shanny's 2 Superbowl victories got him a lot of leniency in the later years. McDaniels doesn't get (nor does he deserve) a decade to try to fix the "problems".

I'm pulling for McDaniels to make us great again this year. I also know in my gut, however that if he doesn't I won't have to worry about him being the HC of my team anymore because Bowlen will show him the door.

Please tell me what a "Superbowl Team" is. Most folks wouldn't have said that about the Cardinals, yet they played in one last year. How about those Jets with their rookie HC and rookie QB? One game away. Don't tell me we're not a Superbowl Team! About the only three teams I can think of that have no chance right now are Detroit because their defense is so bad, Cleveland because their offense is so bad, and St Louis because they are bad on both sides of the ball. On any given day, any team in this league can beat any other team. That's all you need to be a "Superbowl Team", be able to beat any other team on any given Sunday, and be consistent enough at doing it to make the playoffs and then keep it up. Are you saying there are teams that we just can't, no matter how good we play, beat? If that's the case, we're totally screwed and it's going to take the next decade to get us back on track.

T.K.O.
02-14-2010, 04:06 PM
nope thats not what i was saying......

silkamilkamonico
02-14-2010, 04:17 PM
McDaniels is not on a short leash. That's absurd.

Bowlen gave Shanahan 10 years to figure out it. He's going to give McDaniels, or any coach he hired, at least 3.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-14-2010, 04:22 PM
:rolleyes:

Just *what* exactly was Bowlen going to say? Even if he felt he made a mistake why on earth would Bowlen say so publicly?

From the article:

"In two recent interviews with The Denver Post, Bowlen and his right-hand man, team chief operating officer Joe Ellis, acknowledged that after 14 years of Mike Shanahan control at Dove Valley, the "New England Way" was a difficult adjustment for many Broncos fans, players and coaches, and even media."

Bowlen did NOT have to do these interviews - he did NOT have to say anything public. :rolleyes:

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 04:47 PM
McDaniels is not on a short leash. That's absurd.

Bowlen gave Shanahan 10 years to figure out it. He's going to give McDaniels, or any coach he hired, at least 3.

Umm, no. Bowlen gave Shanahan 10 years AFTER he won 2 Superbowls. Shanahan went 13-3 his second season. None of the Other coaches traded away a HOF QB and alienated their probowl WR their first year as the coach either, or caused such a media shit storm of bad press. How much time does McDaniels get? You support him and would gladly follow him and his Bellichick-smelling hoodie right to 0-16 before you'd think maybe McDaniels wasn't the guy. I understand that Silky, you've been more than clear on your position, but what do you think Bowlen meant when he said "we aren't rebuilding, I brought in McDaniels to win now" last January at the intro presser? Was he just blowing smoke? If we go 8-8 or worse this year do you think McDaniels gets another year (pending the lockout - which would actually give McDaniels 4 years)? I don't.

I'm giving McDaniels all the support in the world this year - I WANT him to make us a winner again! I just don't know if he can, and if he doesn't I think Bowlen will say adios!

weazel
02-14-2010, 04:57 PM
I understand the "team before individual" kind of coaching... but this isn't the 60's, players dont put up with shit anymore, they make more than the teams do in some cases. That is old school thinking that doesnt work anymore. This style of coaching only results in turmoil, losing, and firings.

good luck with it though...

atwater27
02-14-2010, 05:33 PM
From the article:

"In two recent interviews with The Denver Post, Bowlen and his right-hand man, team chief operating officer Joe Ellis, acknowledged that after 14 years of Mike Shanahan control at Dove Valley, the "New England Way" was a difficult adjustment for many Broncos fans, players and coaches, and even media."

Bowlen did NOT have to do these interviews - he did NOT have to say anything public. :rolleyes:

Have you considered an armed security officer job guarding Bowlen and McDaniels from every molecule of criticism foreign and domestic? Might as well get paid for it.

atwater27
02-14-2010, 05:34 PM
McDaniels is not on a short leash. That's absurd.

Bowlen gave Shanahan 10 years to figure out it. He's going to give McDaniels, or any coach he hired, at least 3.

Good point. He did give him ultimate power, like Shanahan had.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-14-2010, 06:43 PM
Have you considered an armed security officer job guarding Bowlen and McDaniels from every molecule of criticism foreign and domestic? Might as well get paid for it.

Nope - I just prefer to post "facts" - that's all.

rcsodak
02-14-2010, 07:53 PM
Exactly, had Bowlen wanted 8-8, he'd have just kept Shanahan. McDaniels has to produce something this year, at least a winning record and probably playoffs or I don't think he'll be back (after the lock out that is).

I'm not saying we need a superbowl win, or maybe even a playoff win, just a playoff appearance after being competitive late in the year. Going into the bye week, Bowlen looked like a Genius for hiring McDaniels, by the end of the season with all the drama that went on, he's been put in a very awkward position in most interviews with guys asking him questions about his mental capacity as an owner... OUCH!

Seriously?

Did you not read how Mr Bowlen wanted a change of attitude? A new direction?

He's sat back and watched how Shanny ran the team. He saw how Shanny continued to ride how ever far the offense took them, without improving the defense. He saw how Shanny evidently was being tabbed "the mastermind" one one side of the ball, only. He saw how Shanny ruled the roost from head to toe, with NOTHING to show for it but mediocrity. He saw how Shanny year in and year out would proclaim for all the world that they "were one or two players away" from greatness.

What Mr Bowlen saw was what happens to head coaches in the same place for too long. Entitlement to be there another year. Contentment of being average.

Maybe he saw zero reason to believe things would improve.

In McD, he saw a fire. A brash fireplug from an organization who he wanted to emulate. He saw in McD a new philosophy. Where the TEAM is first, and not the head coach.

McD felt he needed to set the standard when he arrived. He started at the head of the snake. Either you want to be here and learn/listen, or you don't.
He got rid of the malcontents. He got rid of the players no other team wanted, evidenced by their not playing. He brought in players that he felt would help the team in their transition, including players he knew (who better?)

Just because he smacks his lips when he speaks....just because he comes across as arrogant.....just because he's young/brash....just because he's made moves that a FAN/ANALyst doesn't think is smart....just because he trades a 'favorite' of fans, that doesn't want to be there....

....people don't like him.

Let the man do his job.

Let him learn from his 'mistakes', which he's already acknowledged he's starting.
Watch how he drafts, after an entire off-season. (unlike last year)
Allow him to grow into the position, as every other head coach has, since the beginning of time.

It's a new direction. And it was time.

silkamilkamonico
02-14-2010, 08:12 PM
Umm, no. Bowlen gave Shanahan 10 years AFTER he won 2 Superbowls. Shanahan went 13-3 his second season. None of the Other coaches traded away a HOF QB and alienated their probowl WR their first year as the coach either, or caused such a media shit storm of bad press. How much time does McDaniels get? You support him and would gladly follow him and his Bellichick-smelling hoodie right to 0-16 before you'd think maybe McDaniels wasn't the guy. I understand that Silky, you've been more than clear on your position, but what do you think Bowlen meant when he said "we aren't rebuilding, I brought in McDaniels to win now" last January at the intro presser? Was he just blowing smoke? If we go 8-8 or worse this year do you think McDaniels gets another year (pending the lockout - which would actually give McDaniels 4 years)? I don't.

I'm giving McDaniels all the support in the world this year - I WANT him to make us a winner again! I just don't know if he can, and if he doesn't I think Bowlen will say adios!

Umm, yea. If I knew I would have to deal with the 10 year garbage of an excuse for a "competitive franchise" Shanahan gave us at the expense of 2 SuperBowls, I would have probably enjoyed them more.

And if you think I'd support him going into an 0-16 season, you clearly do NOT understand my position.

Hate on McDaniels all you want in this argument, it does not deny the FACT that he has not made Denver any worse than Shanahan did his last 3 on the field, and that's with mostly players that don't even fit his system.

A lot of people against McDaniels still can't get that through their head.

tsiguy96
02-14-2010, 08:31 PM
I understand the "team before individual" kind of coaching... but this isn't the 60's, players dont put up with shit anymore, they make more than the teams do in some cases. That is old school thinking that doesnt work anymore. This style of coaching only results in turmoil, losing, and firings.

good luck with it though...

tell that to this years super bowl winner.

silkamilkamonico
02-14-2010, 08:34 PM
I understand the "team before individual" kind of coaching... but this isn't the 60's, players dont put up with shit anymore, they make more than the teams do in some cases. That is old school thinking that doesnt work anymore. This style of coaching only results in turmoil, losing, and firings.

good luck with it though...

Hardly. This isn't the NBA. In the NFL, everyone knows coaching triumps players.

tsiguy96
02-14-2010, 08:41 PM
Hardly. This isn't the NBA. In the NFL, everyone knows coaching triumps players.

wouldnt go that far. coaching can make a decent team great, but it cant make a bad team great. you need talent in order to win at the end of the day.

silkamilkamonico
02-14-2010, 08:52 PM
wouldnt go that far. coaching can make a decent team great, but it cant make a bad team great. you need talent in order to win at the end of the day.

Tell that to teams like the Washington Redskins and the Denver Broncos. At the end of the day, and more often than not, coaching itself can find talent.

I'll take coaching over talent everyday of the week in the NFL, and twice on Sunday.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-14-2010, 09:02 PM
wouldnt go that far. coaching can make a decent team great, but it cant make a bad team great. you need talent in order to win at the end of the day.

Yes, you need talent to win, but one of the posters on here stated: players dont put up with shit anymore, The players are the show, BUT the players SHOULD NOT run the show.

tsiguy96
02-14-2010, 09:05 PM
Yes, you need talent to win, but one of the posters on here stated: players dont put up with shit anymore, The players are the show, BUT the players SHOULD NOT run the show.

my bigger problem is the players and coaches and owners do not care that while they are spending ever increasing amounts of money, it all comes back to pricing the fans out of attending the games. PPV games are around the corner, so much for watching the games you want to watch for free. they simply dont care that all these costs come back to us, and its sad.

rcsodak
02-14-2010, 09:10 PM
Umm, no. Bowlen gave Shanahan 10 years AFTER he won 2 Superbowls. Shanahan went 13-3 his second season. None of the Other coaches traded away a HOF QB and alienated their probowl WR their first year as the coach either, or caused such a media shit storm of bad press. How much time does McDaniels get? You support him and would gladly follow him and his Bellichick-smelling hoodie right to 0-16 before you'd think maybe McDaniels wasn't the guy. I understand that Silky, you've been more than clear on your position, but what do you think Bowlen meant when he said "we aren't rebuilding, I brought in McDaniels to win now" last January at the intro presser? Was he just blowing smoke? If we go 8-8 or worse this year do you think McDaniels gets another year (pending the lockout - which would actually give McDaniels 4 years)? I don't.

I'm giving McDaniels all the support in the world this year - I WANT him to make us a winner again! I just don't know if he can, and if he doesn't I think Bowlen will say adios!

What...so he can bring in ANOTHER head coach/offensive coordinator/defensive coordinator/lb coach/secondary coach/wr coach/rb coach/te coach/asst head coach, et al?

CLEARLY, you don't get it, 56.

Teams NEED clarity!

Teams NEED teamwork!

Teams NEED continuity!

Teams NEED consistency!



You DON'T keep bringing in all new leadership looking for that 'magic touch'.

That's been part of the problem with the perennial losers in every sport.

I would THINK ya'll would understand that, after experiencing Shanny's revolving door of defensive coordinators the last 5yrs.

:rolleyes:

Denver Native (Carol)
02-14-2010, 09:18 PM
my bigger problem is the players and coaches and owners do not care that while they are spending ever increasing amounts of money, it all comes back to pricing the fans out of attending the games. PPV games are around the corner, so much for watching the games you want to watch for free. they simply dont care that all these costs come back to us, and its sad.

Are you sure that it is the players and coaches dictating this, or the NFL dictating this???? Not sure if you have checked, but a lot of the Olympic stuff is on cable channels, and I am sure that is not the participants in the Olympics pushing this.

tsiguy96
02-14-2010, 09:25 PM
Are you sure that it is the players and coaches dictating this, or the NFL dictating this???? Not sure if you have checked, but a lot of the Olympic stuff is on cable channels, and I am sure that is not the participants in the Olympics pushing this.

its everyone. the players demanding ridiculous salaries that the owners have to pay, all that money comes right back to the fans having to pay $10 for a beer, $30 for parking and $1000 to take your family to a 3 hour game. player contracts are ridiculous, these players dont play a lot of games, so in order to see a game you must spend a fortune, as opposed to $10 per ticket or similar at baseball games.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-14-2010, 09:37 PM
its everyone. the players demanding ridiculous salaries that the owners have to pay, all that money comes right back to the fans having to pay $10 for a beer, $30 for parking and $1000 to take your family to a 3 hour game. player contracts are ridiculous, these players dont play a lot of games, so in order to see a game you must spend a fortune, as opposed to $10 per ticket or similar at baseball games.

There is absolutely no way you can compare the cost of a ticket to an NFL football game, with the cost of a ticket to an MLB, NBA or NHL game. There are 8 regular season home NFL games. How many home games are there in MLB, NBA or NHL? I can guarantee you if they only had 8 regular season games, you would not find a $10.00 ticket. Each MLB team plays 162 total games, which equals 81 home games. That is a MAJOR difference for 8 regular season home games for an NFL team. - NBA 41 home games, NHL 41 home games.

tsiguy96
02-14-2010, 09:41 PM
There is absolutely no way you can compare the cost of a ticket to an NFL football game, with the cost of a ticket to an MLB, NBA or NHL game. There are 8 regular season home NFL games. How many home games are there in MLB, NBA or NHL? I can guarantee you if they only had 8 regular season games, you would not find a $10.00 ticket. Each MLB team plays 162 total games, which equals 81 home games. That is a MAJOR difference for 8 regular season home games for an NFL team. - NBA 41 home games, NHL 41 home games.


didnt i just say that exact same thing in my post? yea, think i did. try reading the part where i said "these players dont play a lot of games"

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 09:43 PM
What...so he can bring in ANOTHER head coach/offensive coordinator/defensive coordinator/lb coach/secondary coach/wr coach/rb coach/te coach/asst head coach, et al?

CLEARLY, you don't get it, 56.

Teams NEED clarity!

Teams NEED teamwork!

Teams NEED continuity!

Teams NEED consistency!



You DON'T keep bringing in all new leadership looking for that 'magic touch'.

That's been part of the problem with the perennial losers in every sport.

I would THINK ya'll would understand that, after experiencing Shanny's revolving door of defensive coordinators the last 5yrs.

:rolleyes:

Yep, who'd ever think that Bowlen might not hitch his wagon to McDaniels for the long haul? He surely did give Wade Phillips a lotta time to mold the team in his image, didn't he?

I didn't say anything other than McDaniels better win now because Bowlen isn't going to let him be mediocre or poor for very long before he pulls the plug. Argue with me and stick up for McDaniels ALL YOU WANT, but the proof is in the pudding on this one. Shanahan went 13-3 his second year and had a Superbowl victory his third and fourth. That's why he got away with so many medicore seasons as the HC before he was canned.

Why do you think McDaniels will get any more or less than Wade Phillips got? Wade got 2 years. Josh gets 2 years. If we're not in the playoffs this year, Josh is gone, IMO. That's what I'm saying regardless of all the other arguments you keep trying to make about "stability".

Stability and continuity are great, but lets be honest, in this day and age of free agency and "win now" mentality, they just aren't essential.

-Mike Tomlin got the Steelers to the playoffs his first year and to the Superbowl his second.
-Tony Sparano got the Dolphins to the playoffs his first year (Won the Division)
-Eric Mangina got the Jets to the playoffs his first year
-Rex Ryan got the Jets to the playoffs with a rookie QB his first year
-Jim Caldwell got the Colts to the superbowl this year
-Mike Smith got the Falcons to the playoffs with a rookie QB his first year

My point is, rookie HCs get their teams to the playoffs all the time. Some of the teams above were in better shape than others, but the Broncos were in pretty good shape last year and continue to be. We DON'T need a complete rebuild at every position. I'd be willing to bet that Steve Spagnuolo could've come in last year and gotten us to 8-8, so could Rex Ryan, so could Jim Schwartz, etc.

The whole "we need at least X years to get all the players we need, the coaches we need, and to install and learn the new scheme" is complete BULLSHIT. Ryan did it with a ROOKIE QB. SMITH DID IT WITH A ROOKIE QB. The system doesn't get any "newer" than that.

Keep making excuses, Bowlen isn't blind, he's going to look at the successes of other teams and their rookie HCs and he's going to EXPECT RESULTS from his.

Once again, I'm not anti-McDaniels here. I'm just saying he'd better get his shit straight now because the other HCs that he's going to be judged against have already gotten theirs straight. He's got this season to finish his McDaniels masterpiece. Or Bowlen WILL pull the plug. I guarantee it.

Lonestar
02-14-2010, 09:59 PM
Then you werent paying attention when he got hired. Sure, he may have a couple of years to get his shit together but dont kid yourself. Bowlen didnt hire McDaniels to just be "mediocre". Bowlen stated from day 1 that he wants to win and to win another SB. That wasnt cue for lets take another decade to get there. :lol:

No he hired him to be a clone of the NE TEAM or did not not get it.

To build a TEAM of NON all stars. TEAM being the KEY comment in it.

I believe he thought they were closer than they were because of the gaudy STATS that were put up last year. I also believe that josh thought he could come in and make a TEAM player out of jay and make him a great QB. IF he would have had a chance to interview with jay before being hired I would guess he would have never taken the job, unless he was told he could trade him without question.

But going off of everything that he had heard and seen on tape I'd bet my last paycheck that he was sure he could make jay into a HOF caliber QB.

I also believe he talked with the OLINE coach and was assured that his players could bulk up and learn how to get back to basic blocking and be great at it.

But then we have to remember that Dennison most likely did not know power blocking because he had never had any experience doing it . He learned ZBS from a master and did well with that only.

Now we all know that the lack of a running game was inferior blocking, anyone that can not wrap their heads around that well your so hate filled nothing will make sense.

Also that lack of basic pass protection from the interior OLINE all year and then when Harris went down it was almost total incompency at the LOS.

What was Josh supposed to do mid stream just set back and try to fling it like the year before. they could not run when they had to, their QB was working on a High Ankle sprain because his OLINE could not protect him.

Joe and Pat did not have to have the interview nor did they have to come out and tell everyone they wanted major change when they hired Josh. That was self evident to anyone that has been paying attention the past 14 months.

I realize most Y'all have been spoiled by mikes "apparent" success . but the truth be told most of the winning was done by a hair since our HOFers retired I include in that John, TD, Sharpe, Zim, Jason, Rod. Now I know not all of them will get in but they all should and would had they played on any other team than in DEN. Not only them but we had a lock on the most pro bowl players for about three years during that run. But since then almost nothing.

Pat got tired of the we are a couple of players away from the superbowl speech that mike made from 2002 till 2008. There is not doubt in my mind just before he was fired that is what he told Pat.

Josh came in and did what he was hired to do make this a TEAM again. Had jay not got his panties in a wad we would have been better this year. Well maybe Josh could have controlled him maybe not if not then he would be on the chopping block this year right now.

It was jay that caused that fiasco and no one else. So knock off the hate towards Josh for not kissing his ass. He is not a HOF QB like some seem to think he was a pro bowl QB ONE year and then even Rivers had better stats and should have went instead..

Time to get over the jay envy and either move on to the bears board or realize that Josh IS NOT ON a short leash. Unless he come in with a 2-14 season next year he will be the HC for the duration of his contract.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 10:06 PM
Hate on McDaniels all you want in this argument, it does not deny the FACT that he has not made Denver any worse than Shanahan did his last 3 on the field, and that's with mostly players that don't even fit his system.

A lot of people against McDaniels still can't get that through their head.

The system argument is wearing insanely thin. We got WORSE as the season went on, not better, on BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL. That's not "System" that's COACHING!

I guess Rex Ryan's "system" is just so much easier for stupid NFL players to learn seeing as how they got to the AFC Championship game and McDaniels' super-complex spread hybrid whatever the hell that nobody could ever possibly grasp in one season system that's supposed to lead us to greatness only got us losses to Jokeland, the Queefs, and the Deadskins down the stretch. Keep blaming the team not knowing "the system" for us sucking for the last 10 weeks of the season. Whatever helps you sleep at night, dude.

System, yeah right. There have been too many teams make the playoffs with rookie HCs and even rookie QBs for it to be the "system". If it were simply a system and players required for the system, we'd have started 2-8 and finished 6-0 as the kinks were worked out and adjustments were made to compensate for players that maybe didn't fit the "system".

Mike Nolan did a great job fitting his players to the system, hence a defense in the top ten. McDaniels did not. Hence an offense that was in the bottom half of the league and got WORSE as the year went on, not better.

Lonestar
02-14-2010, 10:07 PM
Umm, yea. If I knew I would have to deal with the 10 year garbage of an excuse for a "competitive franchise" Shanahan gave us at the expense of 2 SuperBowls, I would have probably enjoyed them more.

And if you think I'd support him going into an 0-16 season, you clearly do NOT understand my position.

Hate on McDaniels all you want in this argument, it does not deny the FACT that he has not made Denver any worse than Shanahan did his last 3 on the field, and that's with mostly players that don't even fit his system.

A lot of people against McDaniels still can't get that through their head.


Hey folks seem to forget that mikes last year we had a pretty cream puff schedule compared to last years. and we were 8-8 inspite of it.

But NO he was supposed to be better than the mastermind even after losing his all world QB that had his panted in a wad because his boss got fired.

Lunacy I say Lunacy.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-14-2010, 10:09 PM
didnt i just say that exact same thing in my post? yea, think i did. try reading the part where i said "these players dont play a lot of games"

Well excuuuuuuuse me - you also said $1000 to take your family to a 3 hr game, which I totally ignored, as I was not sure if you were talking about one game or for the season. I have two season tickets to the Broncos, which cost $1550 total, not each, for the preseason/regular season games. Also, since you acknowledge that football players do not play a lot of games, how do you expect the owner to pay all of the players on an NFL team, which by far exceeds the number of players on the other professional sports teams, plus all of the other costs associated, and still make a profit?

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 10:10 PM
Hey folks seem to forget that mikes last year we had a pretty cream puff schedule compared to last years. and we were 8-8 inspite of it.

But NO he was supposed to be better than the mastermind even after losing his all world QB that had his panted in a wad because his boss got fired.

Lunacy I say Lunacy.

I would call Oakland at home, KC at home, and Washington who ended up 4-12 pretty creampuff, but we went 0-3 in those games. Lunacy I say, LUNACY!

Win 2/3 and we're in the playoffs last year. ;)

rcsodak
02-14-2010, 10:16 PM
Yep, who'd ever think that Bowlen might not hitch his wagon to McDaniels for the long haul? He surely did give Wade Phillips a lotta time to mold the team in his image, didn't he?

I didn't say anything other than McDaniels better win now because Bowlen isn't going to let him be mediocre or poor for very long before he pulls the plug. Argue with me and stick up for McDaniels ALL YOU WANT, but the proof is in the pudding on this one. Shanahan went 13-3 his second year and had a Superbowl victory his third and fourth. That's why he got away with so many medicore seasons as the HC before he was canned.

Why do you think McDaniels will get any more or less than Wade Phillips got? Wade got 2 years. Josh gets 2 years. If we're not in the playoffs this year, Josh is gone, IMO. That's what I'm saying regardless of all the other arguments you keep trying to make about "stability".

Stability and continuity are great, but lets be honest, in this day and age of free agency and "win now" mentality, they just aren't essential.

-Mike Tomlin got the Steelers to the playoffs his first year and to the Superbowl his second.
-Tony Sparano got the Dolphins to the playoffs his first year (Won the Division)
-Eric Mangina got the Jets to the playoffs his first year
-Rex Ryan got the Jets to the playoffs with a rookie QB his first year
-Jim Caldwell got the Colts to the superbowl this year
-Mike Smith got the Falcons to the playoffs with a rookie QB his first year

My point is, rookie HCs get their teams to the playoffs all the time. Some of the teams above were in better shape than others, but the Broncos were in pretty good shape last year and continue to be. We DON'T need a complete rebuild at every position. I'd be willing to bet that Steve Spagnuolo could've come in last year and gotten us to 8-8, so could Rex Ryan, so could Jim Schwartz, etc.

The whole "we need at least X years to get all the players we need, the coaches we need, and to install and learn the new scheme" is complete BULLSHIT. Ryan did it with a ROOKIE QB. SMITH DID IT WITH A ROOKIE QB. The system doesn't get any "newer" than that.

Keep making excuses, Bowlen isn't blind, he's going to look at the successes of other teams and their rookie HCs and he's going to EXPECT RESULTS from his.

Once again, I'm not anti-McDaniels here. I'm just saying he'd better get his shit straight now because the other HCs that he's going to be judged against have already gotten theirs straight. He's got this season to finish his McDaniels masterpiece. Or Bowlen WILL pull the plug. I guarantee it.

LMAO! You guarantee it, huh? Mmmmmmmmk.

So Shanny went 13-3 in his 2nd year. Great. Guess you didn't look at who was on his roster at the time. :rolleyes:

And your teams you listed? :lol: Colts have Manning. Dolphins were BUILT BY BILL, plus a Tom Brady-LESS Pats. Steelers had an intact team from their last SB, INCLUDING their HOF DC. Jets/Ryan were already a playoff team (if favre hadn't been hurt). With Ryan, where'd that land him?

Phillips was in over his head. Hell...he STILL is.

Shanny's been winning with smoke-n-mirrors for so long, it's not funny. Bringing in 1/2yr players just to win an extra game. Sooner or later, it catches up. Now McD is trying to correct that, and too bad for you, but IT TAKES TIME!

Denver Native (Carol)
02-14-2010, 10:16 PM
Win 2/3 and we're in the playoffs last year. ;)

Would that not apply to the year before also?

Lonestar
02-14-2010, 10:17 PM
Yep, who'd ever think that Bowlen might not hitch his wagon to McDaniels for the long haul? He surely did give Wade Phillips a lotta time to mold the team in his image, didn't he?
it.



I stopped reading after this load so perhaps there was something of value in it, but you really need to get a grip.

Phillips was fired because Pat had mike in the wings, waiting to produce.
Pat had tried to hire him when he fired dan but mike would not take the job without total control.

So unless Pat had someone else in mind when he hired Josh I doubt that he will pull the rug out as fast as a few of Y'all want it to happen.

Pat stated it very clear in this interview they wanted a TEAM concept again and less stars.

If You are not able to get that then your better to change to the nuggets or Colts. So You can be happy.

rcsodak
02-14-2010, 10:27 PM
I would call Oakland at home, KC at home, and Washington who ended up 4-12 pretty creampuff, but we went 0-3 in those games. Lunacy I say, LUNACY!

Win 2/3 and we're in the playoffs last year. ;)

Maybe you should go back and look at Shanny's record against the AFCW his past few years, then.

As for your earlier post, regarding Noland getting them a "top 10" defense. Yes, they were. But that's only because of their good start, where teams didn't have tape. Funny, but when they did, Nolan wasn't able to adjust...thus, the 175yd AVG on the ground they were giving up in the latter part of the season.

I HIGHLY doubt anybody on the D is too proud of their ending ranking.

rcsodak
02-14-2010, 10:30 PM
Would that not apply to the year before also?

You mean when they lost to lowly KC/OAK? :confused:

Lonestar
02-14-2010, 10:31 PM
Maybe you should go back and look at Shanny's record against the AFCW his past few years, then.

As for your earlier post, regarding Noland getting them a "top 10" defense. Yes, they were. But that's only because of their good start, where teams didn't have tape. Funny, but when they did, Nolan wasn't able to adjust...thus, the 175yd AVG on the ground they were giving up in the latter part of the season.

I HIGHLY doubt anybody on the D is too proud of their ending ranking.

Had they not been a phenon team those first 6 games and as the best D then the slide to 7 would have been a lot more. the last few games would have gotten them down in the bottom of the league.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 10:35 PM
LMAO! You guarantee it, huh? Mmmmmmmmk.

So Shanny went 13-3 in his 2nd year. Great. Guess you didn't look at who was on his roster at the time. :rolleyes:

And your teams you listed? :lol: Colts have Manning. Dolphins were BUILT BY BILL, plus a Tom Brady-LESS Pats. Steelers had an intact team from their last SB, INCLUDING their HOF DC. Jets/Ryan were already a playoff team (if favre hadn't been hurt). With Ryan, where'd that land him?

Phillips was in over his head. Hell...he STILL is.

Shanny's been winning with smoke-n-mirrors for so long, it's not funny. Bringing in 1/2yr players just to win an extra game. Sooner or later, it catches up. Now McD is trying to correct that, and too bad for you, but IT TAKES TIME!

Won't be bad for me! I'll be here, the question is, will McDaniels?

atwater27
02-14-2010, 10:45 PM
Nope - I just prefer to post "facts" - that's all.

Cute. You know what I'm talking about. You defend Bowlen and McD like they were your children.
They can do nooooo wrong in your eyes. Just pointing that out.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 10:47 PM
I stopped reading after this load so perhaps there was something of value in it, but you really need to get a grip.

Phillips was fired because Pat had mike in the wings, waiting to produce.
Pat had tried to hire him when he fired dan but mike would not take the job without total control.

So unless Pat had someone else in mind when he hired Josh I doubt that he will pull the rug out as fast as a few of Y'all want it to happen.

Pat stated it very clear in this interview they wanted a TEAM concept again and less stars.

If You are not able to get that then your better to change to the nuggets or Colts. So You can be happy.

It has nothing to do with "getting it". I'm glad you, RC, and Carol are so happy patting Mcdaniels and each other on the back for mediocrity. Make all the excuses you want for our after bye week collapse. When has it been okay to be mediocre in Denver? It doesn't matter. If for some reason any of you think that Bowlen is okay with mediocrity go right ahead and defend all of McDaniels decisions and claim "scheme" and "team first" and he was "left a bad team of players" and so on. It won't matter sooner than later.

It's all just excuses folks, we were 8-8 without McDaniels, we are 8-8 with him. Until he does better than that, that's just what he is. Go ahead and convince yourselves that it's okay in Bowlen's world to be 8-8 and I'll show you a Superbowl winning coach in DC that can prove otherwise. You attribute Shanahan's winning to Elway and the team he "walked into" that was TERRIBLE with Phillips? But Josh got the short end of the stick inheriting the "most desirable Head Coaching Job in all of Pro Football" (not my words) and an 8-8 team.

Whatever, if you guys can sleep at night believing that, more power to you. I truly, deeply, sincerely hope that we are successful this year, but I REFUSE to make excuses for anyone, Coaches or Players for our 2-8 collapse. I just hope they know how to fix it.

tsiguy96
02-14-2010, 10:50 PM
It has nothing to do with "getting it". I'm glad you, RC, and Carol are so happy patting Mcdaniels and each other on the back for mediocrity. Make all the excuses you want for our after bye week collapse. When has it been okay to be mediocre in Denver? It doesn't matter. If for some reason any of you think that Bowlen is okay with mediocrity go right ahead and defend all of McDaniels decision and claim "scheme" and "team first" and he was "left a bad team of players" and so on. It won't matter sooner than later.

It's all just excuses folks, we were 8-8 without McDaniels, we are 8-8 with him. Until he does better than that, that's just what he is. Go ahead and convince yourselves that it's okay in Bowlen's world to be 8-8 and I'll show you a Superbowl winning coach in DC that can prove otherwise. You attribute Shanahan's winning to Elway and the team he "walked into" that was TERRIBLE with Phillips? But Josh got the short end of the stick inheriting the "most desirable Head Coaching Job in all of Pro Football" (not my words) and an 8-8 team.

Whatever, if you guys can sleep at night believing that, more power to you. I truly, deeply, sincerely hope that we are successful this year, but I REFUSE to make excuses for anyone, Coaches or Players for our 2-8 collapse. I just hope they know how to fix it.

i think mcdaniels himself this offseason said "right now we are an 8-8 football team". he knows what this team is and what it isnt, and what he needs to improve on to make it better, including himself, as he has stated several times.

bowlen is not happy being 8-8, no one is. but guess what, a guy needs more than 1 year to win while replacing systems on both sides of the ball. anyone in pro football will tell you teh same thing, the guys on sirius NFL radio (former players, execs etc) constantly say this. give the man some time to build the team, if after hes had an ample amount of time (3 seasons) and the team is still mediocre, its time to consider moving on, but not before then. look at what houston is doing. kubiak just got an extension and hes never even seen the playoffs, but his team is heading in teh right direction, he just needs to get it over the top.

rcsodak
02-14-2010, 10:51 PM
It has nothing to do with "getting it". I'm glad you, RC, and Carol are so happy patting Mcdaniels and each other on the back for mediocrity. Make all the excuses you want for our after bye week collapse. When has it been okay to be mediocre in Denver? It doesn't matter. If for some reason any of you think that Bowlen is okay with mediocrity go right ahead and defend all of McDaniels decision and claim "scheme" and "team first" and he was "left a bad team of players" and so on. It won't matter sooner than later.

It's all just excuses folks, we were 8-8 without McDaniels, we are 8-8 with him. Until he does better than that, that's just what he is. Go ahead and convince yourselves that it's okay in Bowlen's world to be 8-8 and I'll show you a Superbowl winning coach in DC that can prove otherwise. You attribute Shanahan's winning to Elway and the team he "walked into" that was TERRIBLE with Phillips? But Josh got the short end of the stick inheriting the "most desirable Head Coaching Job in all of Pro Football" (not my words) and an 8-8 team.

Whatever, if you guys can sleep at night believing that, more power to you. I truly, deeply, sincerely hope that we are successful this year, but I REFUSE to make excuses for anyone, Coaches or Players for our 2-8 collapse. I just hope they know how to fix it.

Looks to me like you're giving the players plenty of excuses. Afterall, they're just running the plays called, right? :rolleyes:

It's funny how you tend to end your posts saying how you want McD to succeed, and yet, the body of your posts say just the opposite.

Lest you forget your "guarantee".

rcsodak
02-14-2010, 10:54 PM
i think mcdaniels himself this offseason said "right now we are an 8-8 football team". he knows what this team is and what it isnt, and what he needs to improve on to make it better, including himself, as he has stated several times.

bowlen is not happy being 8-8, no one is. but guess what, a guy needs more than 1 year to win while replacing systems on both sides of the ball. anyone in pro football will tell you teh same thing, the guys on sirius NFL radio (former players, execs etc) constantly say this. give the man some time to build the team, if after hes had an ample amount of time (3 seasons) and the team is still mediocre, its time to consider moving on, but not before then. look at what houston is doing. kubiak just got an extension and hes never even seen the playoffs, but his team is heading in teh right direction, he just needs to get it over the top.

Careful. You're gonna get thrown in with the rest of us positive thinkers..... :eek:

Denver Native (Carol)
02-14-2010, 10:55 PM
Cute. You know what I'm talking about. You defend Bowlen and McD like they were your children.
They can do nooooo wrong in your eyes. Just pointing that out.

Coach McD has stated in a few post season interviews what he feels he did wrong, what he feels he needs to improve on, etc. - I never heard Shanahan say anything like that. Coach McD does not need to be defended, - he is well aware what he needs to improve on.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 11:01 PM
i think mcdaniels himself this offseason said "right now we are an 8-8 football team". he knows what this team is and what it isnt, and what he needs to improve on to make it better, including himself, as he has stated several times.

bowlen is not happy being 8-8, no one is. but guess what, a guy needs more than 1 year to win while replacing systems on both sides of the ball. anyone in pro football will tell you teh same thing, the guys on sirius NFL radio (former players, execs etc) constantly say this. give the man some time to build the team, if after hes had an ample amount of time (3 seasons) and the team is still mediocre, its time to consider moving on, but not before then. look at what houston is doing. kubiak just got an extension and hes never even seen the playoffs, but his team is heading in teh right direction, he just needs to get it over the top.


The Houston Texans were drafting first overall when Gary Kubiak took over there. The were the WORST team in the league. Last year, they finished 9-7. We were 8-8 When Josh McDaniels took over, we're still 8-8. Once again, I don't buy the "scheme" excuse. There are too many rookie HCs even with rookie QBs making the playoffs to try to pass off that BS as anything more than blowing smoke up everyone's ass.

If you think McDaniels gets 3 years, then it's really 4 because there is most likely a lockout in 2011 and there will be no football. I believe that if McDaniels doesn't have us in the playoffs by this year, Bowlen won't keep him through the lockout. That's my point.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 11:05 PM
Coach McD has stated in a few post season interviews what he feels he did wrong, what he feels he needs to improve on, etc. - I never heard Shanahan say anything like that. Coach McD does not need to be defended, - he is well aware what he needs to improve on.

Girl, you are crazy! Shanahan was his own worst critic. Even after big wins, he loved to point out what he and the coaching staff should've done better.

Sure, finally, at his end of the year press conference,. McDaniels took some ownership and said "we're an 8-8 football team" "we need to get better" - no shit Josh! What's your plan? Oh wait, he didn't say, he just said "we'll be better with more time in the scheme". WTF ever. That doesn't mean squat. That means "I plan to just sit back and it will work itself all out I promise because it's my most excellent NE scheme!"

:rolleyes:

rcsodak
02-14-2010, 11:13 PM
Girl, you are crazy! Shanahan was his own worst critic. Even after big wins, he loved to point out what he and the coaching staff should've done better.

Sure, finally, at his end of the year press conference,. McDaniels took some ownership and said "we're an 8-8 football team" "we need to get better" - no shit Josh! What's your plan? Oh wait, he didn't say, he just said "we'll be better with more time in the scheme". WTF ever. That doesn't mean squat. That means "I plan to just sit back and it will work itself all out I promise because it's my most excellent NE scheme!"

:rolleyes:

YAH! Cuz unless he tells horse56 his every plan, he's gonna be OUTTA HERE! :rolleyes:

Denver Native (Carol)
02-14-2010, 11:15 PM
Girl, you are crazy! Shanahan was his own worst critic. Even after big wins, he loved to point out what he and the coaching staff should've done better.

Sure, finally, at his end of the year press conference,. McDaniels took some ownership and said "we're an 8-8 football team" "we need to get better" - no shit Josh! What's your plan? Oh wait, he didn't say, he just said "we'll be better with more time in the scheme". WTF ever. That doesn't mean squat. That means "I plan to just sit back and it will work itself all out I promise because it's my most excellent NE scheme!"

:rolleyes:

Shanahan was his own worst critic???? Where did you hear him when he was criticizing himself? And if you went to the Broncos home page after every game this year, they carried Coach Mc'D's post game conference, plus each Wednesday they carried his press conference, and after every loss, one of the things he did was to point his finger at himself. So, not FINALLY, at Coach McD's end of the year press conference. He did it many times during the season. Also on the coaches show on Ch4.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 11:23 PM
Shanahan was his own worst critic???? Where did you hear him when he was criticizing himself? And if you went to the Broncos home page after every game this year, they carried Coach Mc'D's post game conference, plus each Wednesday they carried his press conference, and after every loss, one of the things he did was to point his finger at himself. So, not FINALLY, at Coach McD's end of the year press conference. He did it many times during the season. Also on the coaches show on Ch4.

Shanny did the same thing. All coaches do. Just because you can walk the walk doesn't mean you'll talk the talk. Hence, Shanahan is no longer here. Just because josh said that we need to improve doesn't mean we will.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 11:28 PM
Shanahan was his own worst critic???? Where did you hear him when he was criticizing himself? And if you went to the Broncos home page after every game this year, they carried Coach Mc'D's post game conference, plus each Wednesday they carried his press conference, and after every loss, one of the things he did was to point his finger at himself. So, not FINALLY, at Coach McD's end of the year press conference. He did it many times during the season. Also on the coaches show on Ch4.

Okay for all you "proof and link or it didn't happen" folks

http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=349&videoID=2380&type=broncosTV&year=2008&month=1

I went way back to the archives for this one. One of the first thing Shanahan does is bash himself and take responsibility for losing. Every coach does it.

atwater27
02-14-2010, 11:43 PM
Coach McD has stated in a few post season interviews what he feels he did wrong, what he feels he needs to improve on, etc. - I never heard Shanahan say anything like that. Coach McD does not need to be defended, - he is well aware what he needs to improve on.

Really, so now that Shanahan is gone, time to criticize him. All he did was win 2 Super Bowls for a team that lost 4 before that. Shanahan is worth defending. McDaniels? 8-8 his first season. Not an improvement. Not worth defending like he was the last bottle of water in death valley.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-14-2010, 11:57 PM
LMAO! You guarantee it, huh? Mmmmmmmmk.

So Shanny went 13-3 in his 2nd year. Great. Guess you didn't look at who was on his roster at the time. :rolleyes: EXCUSE, josh had the freedom to build his team, he brought in over 30 new players.

And your teams you listed? :lol: Colts have Manning. Dolphins were BUILT BY BILL, plus a Tom Brady-LESS Pats. Steelers had an intact team from their last SB, INCLUDING their HOF DC. Jets/Ryan were already a playoff team (if favre hadn't been hurt). With Ryan, where'd that land him? EXCUSE, the whole, they were a good team whe he got there doesn't hold water WE were a "good team" when he got here dammit! He had a probowl QB, a probowl WR, bookend OTs, a good receiving TE, a solid #2 WR and an O-line that gave up the LEAST SACKS IN THE LEAGUE.

Phillips was in over his head. Hell...he STILL is. Maybe, but what does that have to do with McDaniels being 8-8? Phillips is in the playoffs with his current team. Phillips also didn't walk into an 8-8 Denver squad.

Shanny's been winning with smoke-n-mirrors for so long, it's not funny. Bringing in 1/2yr players just to win an extra game. Sooner or later, it catches up. Now McD is trying to correct that, and too bad for you, but IT TAKES TIME! EXCUSE. No blaming Shanny for what McDaniels did or didn't do. You can't blame the old boss for the problems of the new boss. Didn't I already mention that over half of the roster are guys that McDaniels brought in? McDaniels isn't trying to win with Shanny's guys he didn't want, these are HIS GUYS NOW!


Yeah it's all pretty much excuses. You can find my sympathy for poor wittle Joshie pooh in the dictionary between "shit" and "syphilis". ;)

JDL
02-15-2010, 12:40 AM
Did not sound like he is on a short leash, like some think.

Sounds to me that Pat and Joe are buying into what he is trying to do.

They embraced the change to go with the TEAM concept after seeing what the star concept had not acomplished the past DECADE.

They said they are making changes and expect lots more. Sounds to me that other than perhaps Clady on offense we could see an entire NEW Oline. Joshs FA and draft choices will stay and the rest if they do not get on the TEAM concept band wagon are trade fodder OR RFA looking for draft choices in return.

FA will be interesting to see IF any of the owners give long term big/guaranteed contracts or NOT.

For all the doubters (read haters) get read to yell and whine about your perchieved wrong moves that Josh has done and will do to complete the transformation to a TEAM again.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

Bowlen said all the same things after year 1 of Wade Phillips... you're point?

Lonestar
02-15-2010, 02:49 AM
Bowlen said all the same things after year 1 of Wade Phillips... you're point?


Sorry I was not around to here at that time.

Glad you were to tell us.

I still think he will get more than one more year like all of the haters seem to think he will.

For what its worth sure he had 30 new players. on the team if you were to look back at each year for rhe most part we had 10 to 15 for most of this decade.

considering the entire starting defense got fired excepting champ being the only returnee that is its self is 10 new starters. if you count DJ moving positions.

I'll bet there will be as many as 15 newbies on the team this coming year.

I just do not see how one can compare 8-8 from different seasons as not improving.

I know that some of you have only played madden where trades and schemes are interchanged like under wear.

I also know that because of that getting 11 men on the field all doing exactly what they are supposed to do in one year or less is almost impossible. considering the most part that almost all were doing a different style the last year.

It is a coordinated team function. if something / someone does the wrong thing your screwed.


To compare the jets with a rookie QB to the broncos with new players everywhere is ludicrous. They would have been a playoff team last year had Farve not torn a muscle in his throwing arm. There D was very good and the new QB was plugged in with minimal changes in OLINE (one of the best in the NFL) and running game.

Sure try again.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-15-2010, 10:56 AM
Sorry I was not around to here at that time.

Glad you were to tell us.

I still think he will get more than one more year like all of the haters seem to think he will.

For what its worth sure he had 30 new players. on the team if you were to look back at each year for rhe most part we had 10 to 15 for most of this decade.

considering the entire starting defense got fired excepting champ being the only returnee that is its self is 10 new starters. if you count DJ moving positions.

I'll bet there will be as many as 15 newbies on the team this coming year.

I just do not see how one can compare 8-8 from different seasons as not improving.

I know that some of you have only played madden where trades and schemes are interchanged like under wear.

I also know that because of that getting 11 men on the field all doing exactly what they are supposed to do in one year or less is almost impossible. considering the most part that almost all were doing a different style the last year.

It is a coordinated team function. if something / someone does the wrong thing your screwed.


To compare the jets with a rookie QB to the broncos with new players everywhere is ludicrous. They would have been a playoff team last year had Farve not torn a muscle in his throwing arm. There D was very good and the new QB was plugged in with minimal changes in OLINE (one of the best in the NFL) and running game.

Sure try again.

Once again, McDaniels chose to make those 30 changes to personnel. You can't give him credit for making the team better, personnel wise, then use it as an excuse for why nobody new his system and why we folded down the stretch. Which is it? Either he rebuilt over half the roster and it was an improvement, or it wasn't.

Damn it Jr, WE WERE A PLAYOFF TEAM LAST YEAR IF NOT FOR THE DEFENSE ALLOWING 28 POINTS A GAME AND RANKING 29th IN THE LEAGUE! If you're going to spout garbage like "the Jets were a playoff team if Favre doesn't tear that muscle in his arm" then "the Broncos were a playoff team if the defense doesn't give up 28+ points a game". Stop, just stop. The fact is, a rookie HC took a team that was no better than us with a rookie QB leading it to the AFC Championship game. In the past 3-4 years every year a riookie HC has gotten his team to the playoffs. The Dolphins were 1-15! The next year they were in the playoffs! What's our excuse? That's all it is EXCUSES!

Stop making excuses for McDaniels! I understand that not every team makes the playoffs every year, but Josh's performance is now being judged against his peers. Like it or not, Comparatively, he didn't measure up to some of the other rookie HCs and doesn't deserve to be coddled and defended for 8-8. THAT IS MY POINT.

atwater27
02-15-2010, 11:12 AM
Once again, McDaniels chose to make those 30 changes to personnel. You can't give him credit for making the team better, personnel wise, then use it as an excuse for why nobody new his system and why we folded down the stretch. Which is it? Either he rebuilt over half the roster and it was an improvement, or it wasn't.

Goddamn it Jr, WE WERE A PLAYOFF TEAM LAST YEAR IF NOT FOR THE DEFENSE ALLOWING 28 POINTS A GAME AND RANKING 29th IN THE LEAGUE! If you're going to spout garbage like "the Jets were a playoff team if Favre doesn't tear that muscle in his arm" then "the Broncos were a playoff team if the defense doesn't give up 28+ points a game". Stop, just stop. The fact is, a rookie HC took a team that was no better than us with a rookie QB leading it to the AFC Championship game. In the past 3-4 years every year a riookie HC has gotten his team to the playoffs. The Dolphins were 1-15! The next year they were in the playoffs! What's our excuse? That's all it is EXCUSES!

Stop making excuses for McDaniels! I understand that not every team makes the playoffs every year, but Josh's performance is now being judged against his peers. Like it or not, Comparatively, he didn't measure up to some of the other rookie HCs and doesn't deserve to be coddled and defended for 8-8. THAT IS MY POINT.

It's funny.... Josh gets billed as a rookie sensation, yet other rookie HC's have done much, much better.

spikerman
02-15-2010, 12:06 PM
i think mcdaniels himself this offseason said "right now we are an 8-8 football team"
I hope he doesn't tell himself that the Broncos are an 8-8 football team. If that's his mindset, don't look for huge improvement. He has to take a really hard look at himself AND the team. IMO, a better way for him to think about it is, "We were a 2-8 football team over the last 10 games". The Broncos had a lot of things go their way in the first six games. Personally, I think the last 10 games were more reflective of where Denver is as a team. If McDaniels realizes that, he can start making changes (for good and bad). If he goes into the offseason thinking this team is closer to being good than it is, look for another disappointing season next year.

Lonestar
02-15-2010, 12:17 PM
I'll try this one more time.

Pat chose to change the team, NOT Josh.

Because he made that decision to go to a TEAM concept he was aware that some blood letting was going to happen.

Most teams when they make HC changes have had some semblance of talent left on the team and usually make the change to someone that can use that talent.

When there is little to work with in this case no RB's almost NO defense whatsoever 1 returning starter in same position.

An Oline that was overrated for the CHANGE planned (by Pat). Primadonna players on O that decided they were bigger than the TEAM concept.

HAd those IMHO overrated stars decided to become TEAM players from day one then most likely this past season would have been smoother.

I'm pretty sure that everyone thought that jay would fall into lock step and take advantage of becoming a better player under a supposed QB guru. But given that his HC had just been fired and his buddy coach decided he did not want to stay. He got his panties in a wad when told he was going to be a TEAM member.

Let me restate this team was due for an almost total rebuild, not just a re-model that many thought would happen like they did in ATL and NYJ. add a couple of players and they got better. They also had been getting really great draft choices for a few years prior to their change.


So we all get this straight PAT wanted this CHANGE and he got it. Therefore Josh will have a longer leash than some of you think.

Lonestar
02-15-2010, 12:22 PM
I hope he doesn't tell himself that the Broncos are an 8-8 football team. If that's his mindset, don't look for huge improvement. He has to take a really hard look at himself AND the team. IMO, a better way for him to think about it is, "We were a 2-8 football team over the last 10 games". The Broncos had a lot of things go their way in the first six games. Personally, I think the last 10 games were more reflective of where Denver is as a team. If McDaniels realizes that, he can start making changes (for good and bad). If he goes into the offseason thinking this team is closer to being good than it is, look for another disappointing season next year.

I'm pretty sure that was his mind set he has never to my knowledge said we are there yet.

He has always said even in those early wins that there was room for improvement.

I do not see this fireball settling for anything less than a bunch of Lombardi's.


We just may have another disappointing season next year, but I doubt we will get that lame assed we are one or two players away stict again.

pnbronco
02-15-2010, 01:34 PM
HORSEPOWER 56:
Damn it Jr, WE WERE A PLAYOFF TEAM LAST YEAR IF NOT FOR THE DEFENSE ALLOWING 28 POINTS A GAME AND RANKING 29th IN THE LEAGUE!

But we were not a playoff team Cutler's last year here. That team went into KC in Sept and lost 19-33, it was the first win that KC had in almost or over a year. That team also lost to the Raiders at home 10-31, that was one of the most sicking games I have ever gone to become no one cared. You could feel it from the moment you walked into the stadium.

I remember looking at my husband, because we always go into the stadium when they open the gates and saying this is going to be ugly and I wish we had stayed at home. If you knew what kind of hard core go early stay till they take the last barricade down fan I am (I don't drink at games), you would understand how bad the atmosphere was. The players were there in body only and I'm talking the O too.

The team that lost this year was not that same team. They made mistakes this year. I saw D players keep running into each other that open major holes for the run, that's mechanics, that guys trying to do too much, those guys cared. The crowd was loud, the stadium shook at one point Dawkins ran down the field and everyone stood up and screamed.

When they walked out their hearts were broken because they cared, you could see it all over their face and body language, they were in pain. Not so with the team the year before, those guys would be planning where to go hang out after the game, this team couldn't raise their heads. In their worst loses they acted more like team mates than they ever did with their wins the year before.

Lonestar
02-15-2010, 01:53 PM
HORSEPOWER 56:
Damn it Jr, WE WERE A PLAYOFF TEAM LAST YEAR IF NOT FOR THE DEFENSE ALLOWING 28 POINTS A GAME AND RANKING 29th IN THE LEAGUE!

But we were not a playoff team Cutler's last year here. That team went into KC in Sept and lost 19-33, it was the first win that KC had in almost or over a year. That team also lost to the Raiders at home 10-31, that was one of the most sicking games I have ever gone to become no one cared. You could feel it from the moment you walked into the stadium.

I remember looking at my husband, because we always go into the stadium when they open the gates and saying this is going to be ugly and I wish we had stayed at home. If you knew what kind of hard core go early stay till they take the last barricade down fan I am (I don't drink at games), you would understand how bad the atmosphere was. The players were there in body only and I'm talking the O too.

The team that lost this year was not that same team. They made mistakes this year. I saw D players keep running into each other that open major holes for the run, that's mechanics, that guys trying to do too much, those guys cared. The crowd was loud, the stadium shook at one point Dawkins ran down the field and everyone stood up and screamed.

When they walked out their hearts were broken because they cared, you could see it all over their face and body language, they were in pain. Not so with the team the year before, those guys would be planning where to go hang out after the game, this team couldn't raise their heads. In their worst loses they acted more like team mates than they ever did with their wins the year before.



YOur never going to convince some of these die hard haters that mike and jay were not the greatest thing since John.

They will continue to pound they did not improve BECAUSE the records were the same.

While records do mean something it is not the end all.

Making the playoffs is not always the answer also. If you are not good enough and to slide into the playoffs only to get your asses kicked what does that really mean. WOW we got to the playoffs and got our asses kicked.

This team has been rotting at it core for a long time and 2008 was just a
its low point.

the offensive prowness meant nothing to anyone other than the pro blow players that went and got their heads filled with crap.

jay went but he was not better than Rivers was. As attested to the beat downs he gave us both time in 2008.

Sorry but jay may have been a one year one trick pony that everyone loved because he was NOT Jake. TIME will TELL if he is what they think he can be.

atwater27
02-15-2010, 01:59 PM
YOur never going to convince some of these die hard haters that mike and jay were not the greatest thing since John.

They will continue to pound they did not improve BECAUSE the records were the same.

While records do mean something it is not the end all.

Making the playoffs is not always the answer also. If you are not good enough and to slide into the playoffs only to get your asses kicked what does that really mean. WOW we got to the playoffs and got our asses kicked.

This team has been rotting at it core for a long time and 2008 was just a
its low point.

the offensive prowness meant nothing to anyone other than the pro blow players that went and got their heads filled with crap.

jay went but he was not better than Rivers was. As attested to the beat downs he gave us both time in 2008.

Sorry but jay may have been a one year one trick pony that everyone loved because he was NOT Jake. TIME will TELL if he is what they think he can be.

Nope. Our defense sucked. that's all. You read too much into things.
LMAO! "rotting at it's core"

Lonestar
02-15-2010, 02:13 PM
Nope. Our defense sucked. that's all. You read too much into things.
LMAO! "rotting at it's core"

Pray tell just was not rotten.

Our offense could not score in the red zone, our DC sucked, little if any talent on the D.
How much depth did we have.

WARHORSE
02-15-2010, 02:35 PM
In my opinion Bowlen and Ellis ended up realizing that Shanahan had become a person of loyalty over winning.

It was hard to understand keeping Slowick around, and the players that got paid were the ones that Shanahan liked.

Shanahan is a great coach and overall he did a great job here, but the fact that Bowlen openened his pocket for his decisions ultimately, imo, lead to him just plugging in players during the offseason without giving proper diligence to the players abilities that he was signing.

Mistake.


One thing Im super greatful for is the Portis trade. Champ Bailey is the epitomy of what we want in the lockeroom, and Portis is not. Washington deserves Portis.


Portis may get one year more there........but may not even make it that far.



Bowlen publicly supporting his coach is going to always be there. Never going to change. But while some will argue the point that his comments are automatically biased because of that, it doesnt mean his comments arent genuine. I for one appreciate Bowlen as a person who imo values integrity.

He is old school.

He is not a person who is just going to lie for the sake of saving face.


He, imo, understands the relational end of the football world, as well as the business end of it, and he respects both, and has wisdom that helps him with both.

I give him credit for getting rid of Cutler in the face of all the scrutiny.


He is what is called a leader. Leaders dont flinch in the face of adversity.

He wants a team.

And if a young gunslinger of a QB with loads of potential isnt on board with that.............sayonara.


I got nothin but a two gun WARHORSE salute for that.


BAM!:salute:BAM!:salute:

silkamilkamonico
02-15-2010, 02:56 PM
The system argument is wearing insanely thin. We got WORSE as the season went on, not better, on BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL. That's not "System" that's COACHING!

I guess Rex Ryan's "system" is just so much easier for stupid NFL players to learn seeing as how they got to the AFC Championship game and McDaniels' super-complex spread hybrid whatever the hell that nobody could ever possibly grasp in one season system that's supposed to lead us to greatness only got us losses to Jokeland, the Queefs, and the Deadskins down the stretch. Keep blaming the team not knowing "the system" for us sucking for the last 10 weeks of the season. Whatever helps you sleep at night, dude.

System, yeah right. There have been too many teams make the playoffs with rookie HCs and even rookie QBs for it to be the "system". If it were simply a system and players required for the system, we'd have started 2-8 and finished 6-0 as the kinks were worked out and adjustments were made to compensate for players that maybe didn't fit the "system".

Mike Nolan did a great job fitting his players to the system, hence a defense in the top ten. McDaniels did not. Hence an offense that was in the bottom half of the league and got WORSE as the year went on, not better.

Good. I'm glad you're finally seeing that 8-8 is 8-8, and it's a FACT how McDaniels has not made Denver a worse product on the field than Shanahan's last 3 years. Kind of makes your assumption of my thoughts on the situation look a little absurd now, doesn't it...

..and way to completely reach about assuming I'm arguing our struggles on pplayers that didn't know the system, which couldn't be more wrong......

Northman
02-15-2010, 03:04 PM
I'll try this one more time.

Pat chose to change the team, NOT Josh.

Because he made that decision to go to a TEAM concept he was aware that some blood letting was going to happen.

Most teams when they make HC changes have had some semblance of talent left on the team and usually make the change to someone that can use that talent.

When there is little to work with in this case no RB's almost NO defense whatsoever 1 returning starter in same position.

An Oline that was overrated for the CHANGE planned (by Pat). Primadonna players on O that decided they were bigger than the TEAM concept.

HAd those IMHO overrated stars decided to become TEAM players from day one then most likely this past season would have been smoother.

I'm pretty sure that everyone thought that jay would fall into lock step and take advantage of becoming a better player under a supposed QB guru. But given that his HC had just been fired and his buddy coach decided he did not want to stay. He got his panties in a wad when told he was going to be a TEAM member.

Let me restate this team was due for an almost total rebuild, not just a re-model that many thought would happen like they did in ATL and NYJ. add a couple of players and they got better. They also had been getting really great draft choices for a few years prior to their change.


So we all get this straight PAT wanted this CHANGE and he got it. Therefore Josh will have a longer leash than some of you think.

I dont think you can say that Pat wanted all this drama and complete overhaul. Ive seen nothing in print to verify that assumption by you. Now, Pat is supporting his HC which is something he has done in the past but that doesnt automatically put Pat in the "he wanted to rebuild this team" mode. Pat stated that 8-8, 7-9, etc werent cutting it. He wants to win, and win NOW. I do think McD will get at least this year and possibly next to do the job but dont kid yourself. Pat wants to be back in the playoffs and in for SB contention and he isnt going to wait 5-10 years down the road to do that. I dont know how you came to that conclusion but that isnt what Pat said when he hired McDaniels.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-15-2010, 03:07 PM
I guess Rex Ryan's "system" is just so much easier for stupid NFL players to learn seeing as how they got to the AFC Championship game and McDaniels' super-complex spread hybrid whatever the hell that nobody could ever possibly grasp in one season system that's supposed to lead us to greatness only got us losses to Jokeland, the Queefs, and the Deadskins down the stretch. Keep blaming the team not knowing "the system" for us sucking for the last 10 weeks of the season. Whatever helps you sleep at night, dude.

System, yeah right. There have been too many teams make the playoffs with rookie HCs and even rookie QBs for it to be the "system". If it were simply a system and players required for the system, we'd have started 2-8 and finished 6-0 as the kinks were worked out and adjustments were made to compensate for players that maybe didn't fit the "system".

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/184357-jets-defense-to-make-four-significant-changes

The Jets franchise wasn’t looking for a new scheme when they hired Rex Ryan to replace Eric Mangini. They already had a core of young players that fit nicely into a basic 3-4 defense.

Kris Jenkins handled nose tackle duties, while Shaun Ellis learned the basics of playing end in a 3-4. Calvin Pace thrived at outside linebacker last season after playing defensive end in Arizona.

Darrelle Revis was a shut-down corner, David Harris played like an elite tackler, and Kerry Rhodes intercepted passes just as easily as he sacked the quarterback.

The car was already in the garage. The team just wanted someone to kick the tires, check under the hood, and customize a few details.

Ryan is in a strange position for a new coach. Usually you take a job with an under-achieving team and immediately get to work on stripping everything down to the nuts and bolts. But this year’s Jets squad is different, they don’t want changes so much as they want improvements.

Ryan is known for using his father Buddy’s 46 defense, but he merged that in Baltimore with his own 3-4 alignment. That means he can take his time in bringing the Jets from Mangini’s scheme to his own without having to reinvent the wheel.

With the team and basic formation in place, the best marker for change may be the playbook itself. The alterations won’t happen all at once, though.

spikerman
02-15-2010, 03:12 PM
YOur never going to convince some of these die hard haters that mike and jay were not the greatest thing since John.

They will continue to pound they did not improve BECAUSE the records were the same.

While records do mean something it is not the end all.

Making the playoffs is not always the answer also. If you are not good enough and to slide into the playoffs only to get your asses kicked what does that really mean. WOW we got to the playoffs and got our asses kicked.

This team has been rotting at it core for a long time and 2008 was just a
its low point.

the offensive prowness meant nothing to anyone other than the pro blow players that went and got their heads filled with crap.

jay went but he was not better than Rivers was. As attested to the beat downs he gave us both time in 2008.

Sorry but jay may have been a one year one trick pony that everyone loved because he was NOT Jake. TIME will TELL if he is what they think he can be.

Jr, I simply can't understand how you can be so put off by people who criticize the coach. Until he was fired, there was rarely a thread made about any subject in which you missed a chance to take a shot at Shanahan. Yes, Shanahan had more time than McDaniels, but you, of all people, should understand that some people just don't like a coach.

I have to admit that I don't care for him, but I hope he succeeds, because if he succeeds that means my favorite team is winning.

spikerman
02-15-2010, 03:14 PM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/184357-jets-defense-to-make-four-significant-changes

The Jets franchise wasn’t looking for a new scheme when they hired Rex Ryan to replace Eric Mangini. They already had a core of young players that fit nicely into a basic 3-4 defense.

Kris Jenkins handled nose tackle duties, while Shaun Ellis learned the basics of playing end in a 3-4. Calvin Pace thrived at outside linebacker last season after playing defensive end in Arizona.

Darrelle Revis was a shut-down corner, David Harris played like an elite tackler, and Kerry Rhodes intercepted passes just as easily as he sacked the quarterback.

The car was already in the garage. The team just wanted someone to kick the tires, check under the hood, and customize a few details.

Ryan is in a strange position for a new coach. Usually you take a job with an under-achieving team and immediately get to work on stripping everything down to the nuts and bolts. But this year’s Jets squad is different, they don’t want changes so much as they want improvements.

Ryan is known for using his father Buddy’s 46 defense, but he merged that in Baltimore with his own 3-4 alignment. That means he can take his time in bringing the Jets from Mangini’s scheme to his own without having to reinvent the wheel.

With the team and basic formation in place, the best marker for change may be the playbook itself. The alterations won’t happen all at once, though.
I wonder if McDaniels could have taken the same approach by tweaking the offense while he overhauled the defense instead of trying to do both in one year.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-15-2010, 03:23 PM
I wonder if McDaniels could have taken the same approach by tweaking the offense while he overhauled the defense instead of trying to do both in one year.

If a new coach runs the same offensive scheme already in place, then I would imagine that tweaking would work - if not, I think it is fair to assume that there is much more involved than just tweaking. Obviously, not all HC's run the same offensive scheme.

spikerman
02-15-2010, 03:24 PM
If a new coach runs the same offensive scheme already in place, then I would imagine that tweaking would work - if not, I think it is fair to assume that there is much more involved than just tweaking. Obviously, not all HC's run the same offensive scheme.

That's why keeping Bates as OC might have been a good idea. At least for the first year.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-15-2010, 03:51 PM
That's why keeping Bates as OC might have been a good idea. At least for the first year.

Only if Bates knew how to run the scheme Coach McD wanted.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-15-2010, 04:16 PM
Good. I'm glad you're finally seeing that 8-8 is 8-8, and it's a FACT how McDaniels has not made Denver a worse product on the field than Shanahan's last 3 years. Kind of makes your assumption of my thoughts on the situation look a little absurd now, doesn't it...

..and way to completely reach about assuming I'm arguing our struggles on pplayers that didn't know the system, which couldn't be more wrong......

Umm, it's YOU that continues to use the "system" as an excuse, over and over. What the hell are you talking about? You referenced McDaniels not having the personnel for his system in your last super McDaniels' excuse laden post. Excuses are all anybody seems to come up with, it's just sad.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-15-2010, 04:29 PM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/184357-jets-defense-to-make-four-significant-changes

The Jets franchise wasn’t looking for a new scheme when they hired Rex Ryan to replace Eric Mangini. They already had a core of young players that fit nicely into a basic 3-4 defense.

Kris Jenkins handled nose tackle duties, while Shaun Ellis learned the basics of playing end in a 3-4. Calvin Pace thrived at outside linebacker last season after playing defensive end in Arizona.

Darrelle Revis was a shut-down corner, David Harris played like an elite tackler, and Kerry Rhodes intercepted passes just as easily as he sacked the quarterback.

The car was already in the garage. The team just wanted someone to kick the tires, check under the hood, and customize a few details.

Ryan is in a strange position for a new coach. Usually you take a job with an under-achieving team and immediately get to work on stripping everything down to the nuts and bolts. But this year’s Jets squad is different, they don’t want changes so much as they want improvements.

Ryan is known for using his father Buddy’s 46 defense, but he merged that in Baltimore with his own 3-4 alignment. That means he can take his time in bringing the Jets from Mangini’s scheme to his own without having to reinvent the wheel.

With the team and basic formation in place, the best marker for change may be the playbook itself. The alterations won’t happen all at once, though.


So, how was that defense that Ryan walked into and was smart enough not to screw with any different than the offense (ranked #2 in the league) that McDaniels walked into in Denver? HE CHOSE to completely dismantle and bring in his guys to run his offense and we struggled mightily to score 17 PPG on average this year.

If you're trying to make the case that Ryan walked into a team in "auto" and just stood back and let it run to the AFC Championship Game, you are way off base. The Jets had NO QB when Ryan came in. The hardest position to fill is QB. Then he got a rookie. He then coached that rookie to the AFC Championship game. That's how it happened.

The vast majority of changes in Denver were brought on by McDaniels himself. For better or worse. He is responsible for the team now. Just like Ryan gets the credit for the Jets, McDaniels gets the blame for the Broncos. Just how it works. The rest is just excuses.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-15-2010, 04:47 PM
If you're trying to make the case that Ryan walked into a team in "auto" and just stood back and let it run to the AFC Championship Game, you are way off base. The Jets had NO QB when Ryan came in. The hardest position to fill is QB. Then he got a rookie. He then coached that rookie to the AFC Championship game. That's how it happened.

Guess you could say that Ryan DID let it run to the AFC Championship Game

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/20100122_Paul_Domowitch__Jets__Ryan_in_minority_on _offense__not_Eagles__Reid.html

The Jets' Rex Ryan is a ground-and-pound devotee. Run, run and then run some more.

"If you can run the football," said Rex, whose team had a league-high 607 rushing attempts this season, "you've got a great chance to win in this league."

Since the Jets still have a playoff pulse and the Eagles don't, it's hard to argue with Ryan at the moment. The Jets, who will face the Colts in Sunday's AFC Championship Game, averaged an NFL-best 172.3 rushing yards per game this season.

No team in the league threw less often than Ryan's Jets. Just 423 of their 1,030 offensive plays, or 41.1 percent, were pass plays. The fact that the Jets were starting a rookie quarterback obviously had more than a little to do with their play selection. But Ryan clearly believes that you win in the NFL by playing tough defense and pounding the ball on the ground.

Lonestar
02-15-2010, 05:32 PM
I dont think you can say that Pat wanted all this drama and complete overhaul. Ive seen nothing in print to verify that assumption by you.

Now, Pat is supporting his HC which is something he has done in the past but that doesnt automatically put Pat in the "he wanted to rebuild this team" mode. Pat stated that 8-8, 7-9, etc werent cutting it. He wants to win, and win NOW.

I do think McD will get at least this year and possibly next to do the job but dont kid yourself. Pat wants to be back in the playoffs and in for SB contention and he isnt going to wait 5-10 years down the road to do that. I dont know how you came to that conclusion but that isnt what Pat said when he hired McDaniels.

There is not a doubt that Pat wanted to change the coddled STAR senario to TEAM concept.

Or he would have hired someone else. He wanted the NE style in DEN, does anyone doubt that?

He would have hire Spags or the kid from TB. They wanted TEAM NE style.

As for the drama I'm sure he thought jay Etal was more mature than he turned out to be. Would understand it was BUSINESS.

He would not have stated that jay was big in the plans when he hired Josh. IN fact I'd bet a lot of money he thought Josh could make jay into the player everyone thought he could be.

But jay showed his true colors on more than one occasion which to a lot of us was no BIG surprise.

Lots of us thought he was a spoiled punk before mike got canned and that mike was coddling him allowing him to run amok trying to get to the playoffs.

So when jay dumped on Pat and the Broncos the leash was loosened to get us back to the playoffs. IMO


I also do not remember anyone else saying 5-10 years grace period so not sure where you came up with that number.There has never been a post that I've done that has said Pat is not intent on a winning program. Getting back to the playoffs is his goal, but he is smart enough now to see the real state of the Bronco nation was left in after mike was let go.



And probably even more so Joe Ellis knows and he like Josh after all he was the one that spent all the time with him before he was hired.

Pat trusts Joe and Joe Likes Josh. Right now that is all that matters.

What the haters here say or the media in the post say matters not, unless the teammates dump next season.

When I was looking at the predictions for last season never once did I think we would even be 8-8, I was looking forward to playoffs in 2010. that was based on SAN loosing a lot of talent via the FA route.

Now I'm not so sure they will indeed lose as much as we will considering how deep they are in talent and how shallow we are.

But hope springs eternal. :salute:or (hope springs a kernel if your a boston legal fan):laugh:

Lonestar
02-15-2010, 05:59 PM
Jr, I simply can't understand how you can be so put off by people who criticize the coach. Until he was fired, there was rarely a thread made about any subject in which you missed a chance to take a shot at Shanahan. Yes, Shanahan had more time than McDaniels, but you, of all people, should understand that some people just don't like a coach.

I have to admit that I don't care for him, but I hope he succeeds, because if he succeeds that means my favorite team is winning.

I know that some do not like him but to me it is like Mtnmans hate for Jake. totally irrational. IMHO

If he really did something that did not have to be done then I could almost get it.

But he did not inherit a play off team like some fantasize about.


He got a team that had a ZBS Oline one that has struggled in the red zone since Zimmerman and company retired or there abouts.

yes we had an occasional year or two but nothing consistent in scoring inside the 10 yard line.

mike skated by on jasons toe for years. If he did not have a great FG kicker then he would have been forced to fix the red zone issues.

mike blew the team up in 2006 when Gary left and humdinger came to town. they drafted jay the "franchise QB" and mike was given a reprieve on winning a super bowl, for awhile afterall it takes THREE years for a QB to "get it".

Not saying that jay will never be that elusive FQB but unless he is reined in he is going to be jeff george. A coach killer so far he has TWO scalps on his bow maybe three if you count bates.

Yes I did not like mike and the reason mostly was because he screwed up personnel with lousy drafts for most of his time in DEN and his FA choices for the most part sucked after his SB run. he caused this team to slide farther down the food chain every year building the O and letting the D slide. His choices of coach we now know were total losers.

He brought in Bobby and Gibbs at first and they defined the O with the ZBS, a brilliant move initially but once Gibbs left they gave the job to Dennison a former LB with ZERO OLINE experience. When Gary left they went through a succession of replacements that did not meet his standards.
He went through DC like most folks change underwear.

HE may have been a great OC but to me that was it . IMHO he screwed this franchise up with his personnel decisions. Always having to cut players to make the cap and when they were cut that left 10-25 million each year in dead space. that is two really good players a year that could have been used on the field.

So when Josh gets to ha point I can see others getting up tight with him like some of us were.

many were pissed when he was hired instead of Spags I was one of them. But I soon saw the light at the end of the tunnel and came to see just how poor this team was left by mike.

I know that many thought is was ready to be a super bowl team IF they would have just fixed the D.

But ask your self had we kept the makes scheme who would have ran it? which coach would have been good enough to scheme each week for the upcoming opponent?

How would we have gotten those 3rd and shorts in the mid field like we could not do for the past 6-7 years?

How would we have fixed the red zone issues we have had for 10 years or more?

All we would have had was a better (maybe) D that would still have to buck it up after jay gave the ball away consistently.

Sorry but IMHO this team unlike the jets needed a complete overhaul, they atlas had a real DL already there and their OLINE is one of the best in the NFL.

Two things we still do not have.

/rant

Lonestar
02-15-2010, 06:03 PM
Guess you could say that Ryan DID let it run to the AFC Championship Game

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/20100122_Paul_Domowitch__Jets__Ryan_in_minority_on _offense__not_Eagles__Reid.html

The Jets' Rex Ryan is a ground-and-pound devotee. Run, run and then run some more.

"If you can run the football," said Rex, whose team had a league-high 607 rushing attempts this season, "you've got a great chance to win in this league."

Since the Jets still have a playoff pulse and the Eagles don't, it's hard to argue with Ryan at the moment. The Jets, who will face the Colts in Sunday's AFC Championship Game, averaged an NFL-best 172.3 rushing yards per game this season.

No team in the league threw less often than Ryan's Jets. Just 423 of their 1,030 offensive plays, or 41.1 percent, were pass plays. The fact that the Jets were starting a rookie quarterback obviously had more than a little to do with their play selection. But Ryan clearly believes that you win in the NFL by playing tough defense and pounding the ball on the ground.


Carol My love you will not change a haters POV, it is not going to happen. Just like mtnman hated Jake for no apparent reason. some of these guys will hate Josh and maybe even Pat until they move on or they get tired of being a bronco fan.

You have been nothing but logical and they can not see the forest for the trees because of their hate.

Time to place them on IGGY.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-15-2010, 06:10 PM
Carol My love you will not change a haters POV, it is not going to happen. Just like mtnman hated Jake for no apparent reason. some of these guys will hate Josh and maybe even Pat until they move on or they get tired of being a bronco fan.

You have been nothing but logical and they can not see the forest for the trees because of their hate.

Time to place them on IGGY.

Not trying to change anyone's POV, just posting facts, information ;) I have no one on Iggy now, and don't plan on doing so.

Northman
02-15-2010, 06:13 PM
There is not a doubt that Pat wanted to change the coddled STAR senario to TEAM concept.

Or he would have hired someone else. He wanted the NE style in DEN, does anyone doubt that?

Did he want to get back to winning and saw that NE was the blueprint? Sure. But it still wouldnt say that Pat was looking specifically at the "star" or "team" part of it. The guy just wants to win whether he has a "star" QB or not. Again, i think your reading far too much into that aspect of the NE way.


He would have hire Spags or the kid from TB. They wanted TEAM NE style.

:lol:

Man, broham you have really gone overboard here. You dont think that Spags and the TB kid would like to have a team concept? What makes you think they want all the drama?


He would not have stated that jay was big in the plans when he hired Josh. IN fact I'd bet a lot of money he thought Josh could make jay into the player everyone thought he could be.

Im sure he did.


But jay showed his true colors on more than one occasion which to a lot of us was no BIG surprise.

Although Jay didnt help his situation i was kind of surprised he made the kind of stink that he did.


Lots of us thought he was a spoiled punk before mike got canned and that mike was coddling him allowing him to run amok trying to get to the playoffs.

I was here and i although i know "some" of us thought he had maturity issues i know for a fact that no one was "hating" on Jay the last 3 years like they are now, myself included.


So when jay dumped on Pat and the Broncos the leash was loosened to get us back to the playoffs. IMO

Dumped on how? Are you talking about Jay's displeasure in Shanahan's firing? I dont think he was dumping on Bowlen merely concerned because he liked him as a head coach. Even with that said i dont think that moment played a part in Bowlen's decision to find a HC. I think Bowlen was looking for a guy who had success with a winning franchise and he felt that McDaniels was his guy. Although im sure Bowlen appreciates how the Patriots run things it isnt like Bowlen was happy about having to cut Jay loose. In fact, i would almost bet that after the last season he would still have that kind of offense as we went from one extreme to another.



I also do not remember anyone else saying 5-10 years grace period so not sure where you came up with that number.There has never been a post that I've done that has said Pat is not intent on a winning program. Getting back to the playoffs is his goal, but he is smart enough now to see the real state of the Bronco nation was left in after mike was let go.

Real state? According to who? You? Unfortuantely, despite some attitude problems from a couple of players those said players did perform quite well for this team and for Bowlen. You ask any winning head coach and he will tell you that Denver's offense would of flourished with Cutler still in the fold. Keep in mind that the drama that unfolded was created by the guy who just couldnt be upfront from the beginning. Jay may have been his own undoing in the long run but McDaniels is no saint here and anyone who thinks so is crazy. Call it his own inexperience or immaturity at the end of the day McDaniels takes some of the blame for that fiasco.


What the haters here say or the media in the post say matters not, unless the teammates dump next season.

In all seriousness, the "haters" thing is played out. I think your above that kind of crap. I know there are those on both sides of the spectrum who are pretty extreme in their takes but to try and lump everyone into that category or even use the term is silly. You dont like Shanahan and some people dont like McDaniels. It doesnt make them or you "haters".


When I was looking at the predictions for last season never once did I think we would even be 8-8, I was looking forward to playoffs in 2010. that was based on SAN loosing a lot of talent via the FA route.

Now I'm not so sure they will indeed lose as much as we will considering how deep they are in talent and how shallow we are.

But hope springs eternal. :salute:or (hope springs a kernel if your a boston legal fan):laugh:

I didnt know what we would be last year as i was in a wait and see approach. Same can be said for this year. However, with more changes comes more concern and questions. I do expect far better results this year and i can assure you so does Bowlen. Maybe not a SB championship but if we fail to make the playoffs i can guarantee that McDaniels leash will get much shorter. Bowlen has not stated that this team has to be overhauled and rebuilt from the ground up. And considering we had a very promising QB in the fold i know Bowlen thought we would be fine on the offensive side of the ball and would of excelled under McDaniels. But when your coach becomes involved in the drama with not just one player but many Bowlen cant be too stupid as too assume its all on the players. The way i see it this is judgement time for McDaniels. The grace period is over.

Lonestar
02-15-2010, 06:13 PM
Not trying to change anyone's POV, just posting facts, information ;) I have no one on Iggy now, and don't plan on doing so.


Well I :salute: you for bring out the facts that so many want to ignore.

You are the best at burying them with logical articles.:salute:

You have so much more patience than I.

Lonestar
02-15-2010, 06:31 PM
Did he want to get back to winning and saw that NE was the blueprint? Sure. But it still wouldnt say that Pat was looking specifically at the "star" or "team" part of it. The guy just wants to win whether he has a "star" QB or not. Again, i think your reading far too much into that aspect of the NE way.


Why would they have brought it up had they not meant it


:lol:

Man, broham you have really gone overboard here. You dont think that Spags and the TB kid would like to have a team concept? What makes you think they want all the drama?

Never said they wanted any drama



Im sure he did.



Although Jay didnt help his situation i was kind of surprised he made the kind of stink that he did.



I was here and i although i know "some" of us thought he had maturity issues i know for a fact that no one was "hating" on Jay the last 3 years like they are now, myself included.

I believe that folks finally saw what he was and as the BEars season went down the tiolet more and more jumped on that bandwagon

Dumped on how? Are you talking about Jay's displeasure in Shanahan's firing? I dont think he was dumping on Bowlen merely concerned because he liked him as a head coach. Even with that said i dont think that moment played a part in Bowlen's decision to find a HC. I think Bowlen was looking for a guy who had success with a winning franchise and he felt that McDaniels was his guy. Although im sure Bowlen appreciates how the Patriots run things it isnt like Bowlen was happy about having to cut Jay loose. In fact, i would almost bet that after the last season he would still have that kind of offense as we went from one extreme to another.

Again I'm sure that Pat was not happy the way it went down, but him getting his panties in a wad because Josh was not holding his hand or that he had the impertanance for taking a call about a trade. that he expected him to man up and realize he was going to be a TEAM player or be gone. But you realize it was Pt that made the decision to trade him after jays immaturity blew up.


Real state? According to who? You? Unfortuantely, despite some attitude problems from a couple of players those said players did perform quite well for this team and for Bowlen. You ask any winning head coach and he will tell you that Denver's offense would of flourished with Cutler still in the fold. Keep in mind that the drama that unfolded was created by the guy who just couldnt be upfront from the beginning. Jay may have been his own undoing in the long run but McDaniels is no saint here and anyone who thinks so is crazy. Call it his own inexperience or immaturity at the end of the day McDaniels takes some of the blame for that fiasco.

Perhaps jay would have florhised I do not know nor do you or any coach JTO

I have never said that Josh is a saint nor he does not get any blame but he is not the devil that many make him out to be either. They hired him to do a job and he is doing it .



In all seriousness, the "haters" thing is played out. I think your above that kind of crap. I know there are those on both sides of the spectrum who are pretty extreme in their takes but to try and lump everyone into that category or even use the term is silly. You dont like Shanahan and some people dont like McDaniels. It doesnt make them or you "haters".



I didnt know what we would be last year as i was in a wait and see approach. Same can be said for this year. However, with more changes comes more concern and questions. I do expect far better results this year and i can assure you so does Bowlen. Maybe not a SB championship but if we fail to make the playoffs i can guarantee that McDaniels leash will get much shorter. Bowlen has not stated that this team has to be overhauled and rebuilt from the ground up. And considering we had a very promising QB in the fold i know Bowlen thought we would be fine on the offensive side of the ball and would of excelled under McDaniels. But when your coach becomes involved in the drama with not just one player but many Bowlen cant be too stupid as too assume its all on the players. The way i see it this is judgement time for McDaniels. The grace period is over.

I'm sure that Pat did not see just how bad the team was. just that changes had to be made.

I know from my Manager days I was a fixer, the boss told me ha areas that a new location that I was sent to had, the Obvious ones.

Many times after going in I found what was causing the issues of failures. When I reported back what I had found I usually was given the authority to fix it regardless of who or what changes that had to be made. I kept the DM or ZM apprised and in most cases listened to their ideas on how to fix it.

I'm betting that once josh got here and figured out the issues he went back to Joe and Pat and was allowed to change what he needed to.

I doubt that he made all of the decisions without any input whatsoever, had he and Pat or Joe did not say anything then Indeed his leash would be short.

But from what I saw in those articles Pat and Joe are in synch with what Josh wants to do.

Hope that clarifies my stance and ideas.



a

Denver Native (Carol)
02-15-2010, 06:45 PM
I'm sure that Pat did not see just how bad the team was. just that changes had to be made.

Not sure if Pat did see just how bad the team was overall, but if it is true that the reason Shanahan got fired is because he would not do as Pat instructed him to, i.e. fire Slowick, Pat at least recognized one problem.

T.K.O.
02-15-2010, 07:13 PM
its kinda silly for everyone to be bragging up the jets and ryan as if it was'nt for the bengals and colts resting they never would have made the playoffs to begin with.....they got a break and took it pretty far,but even rex thought they were toast in week 15.

Lonestar
02-15-2010, 08:33 PM
its kinda silly for everyone to be bragging up the jets and ryan as if it was'nt for the bengals and colts resting they never would have made the playoffs to begin with.....they got a break and took it pretty far,but even rex thought they were toast in week 15.

Yes I get a kick out of them raviing about a rookie HC with a Rookie QB getting to the playoffs BEING a game or so away from the superbowl.

Just we were in 2005 and PIT kicked our phony ass then like they got beat.

Getting to the PLayoffs means nothing to me unless we get to the S/B. Not a thing. I'd rather have better draft choices anyday.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

rcsodak
02-15-2010, 10:39 PM
Yeah it's all pretty much excuses. You can find my sympathy for poor wittle Joshie pooh in the dictionary between "shit" and "syphilis". ;)

You should really run for office.

Avoid and spin and if that doesn't work, end it with childish banter.

:rolleyes:

I'm assuming facts only become "excuses" when they disagree with your opinion.

How convenient. :coffee:

Broncolingus
02-15-2010, 11:27 PM
Bowlen glad he chose change.

Um...

I'm not sure, but what else could Bowlen say other than that?

:confused:

Shazam!
02-16-2010, 01:35 AM
End the comparison with the NYJ please.

I know it's disgusting to think about but they are far better up front on both lines, especially on Defense their front 7 is far better.

Even a position that Denver would have an edge on against a team's talent is CB, and they even got the Broncos beat with Reevis.

I know they beat them last year at the Meadowlands, but they did finish better and if it weren't for Farve's awful string they would've made the Playoffs.

Lonestar
02-16-2010, 05:14 AM
Bowlen seeing benefits of switch to McDaniels
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
POSTED: 02/14/2010 01:00:00 AM MST
UPDATED: 02/14/2010 02:55:37 AM MST

An occasionally self-deprecating humorist, Pat Bowlen often acknowledges he is getting old.

Not that this means the Broncos owner has grown deaf to his fan base.

He hears people grumble about his head coach, Josh McDaniels. But Bowlen wants his fan base to understand a primary reason he hired McDaniels away from the New Eng-land Patriots last year. It's because he wanted change.

"New England has been a very successful club, and he has brought a lot of the experience he had there to Denver," Bowlen said. "And that doesn't bother me. He wants people to toe the line. He doesn't cut a lot of slack to players. He expects his coaches to be there and working hard."

In two recent interviews with The Denver Post, Bowlen and his right-hand man, chief operating officer Joe Ellis, acknowledged that after 14 years of Mike Shanahan control at Dove Valley, the "New England Way" was a difficult switch for many Broncos fans, players and coaches, even media.


The Broncos are more inclined to call it the "McDaniels Way" because their coach is nothing if not his own man. The most obvious common denominator between Bill Belichick's Patriots and McDaniels' Broncos is a belief in a starless system.

"Josh is a principled person and he's going to call for accountability from the first player on the roster to the 53rd," Ellis said. "His belief and need for team and the team concept, he's not going to waver from that. And frankly, that was something that was refreshing. In the interview process, that gave him a leg up on other candidates."

Part of the problem with the 2009 Broncos, who finished 8-8 after a 6-0 start, may have been that more time was needed to sort through the trial-and-error period of blending the proper player-roster balance. Star quarterback Jay Cutler was gone before he took his first snap. Brandon Marshall, arguably a bigger star as a receiver, was trouble at the start of training camp and again in the season's final week. Tight end Tony Scheffler also got sideways with the new coach.

Cutler, Marshall and Scheffler were stars in Shanahan's West Coast system, creating the impression the Broncos' locker room was divided: Shana-han's guys and McDaniels' guys.

"That nonsense has to go away," Ellis said. "There's only one locker room, there's only one team, and that's the Denver Broncos. You can go back in history to Dan Reeves and some of the coaches and players he brought with him. Mike Shanahan in 1995, look at both the coaches and players who came here from the 49ers. And now we have some guys that have come over from New England who are familiar with Josh. It happens all the time in the league and it's happened for many, many years.

"Yes, change is difficult. But if players or coaches aren't willing to accept the changes and this direction, they probably don't buy into this concept of putting the team first and they probably aren't going to last long here."

Not all of Shanahan's holdovers struggled in 2009. See Elvis Dumervil and his NFL-leading 17 sacks. Now the task of getting Dumervil more help.

On the Friday after Denver's season ended with a deflating 44-24 home loss to lowly Kansas City — the Broncos' eighth defeat in their last 10 games — McDaniels, Bowlen and Ellis gathered for a 3 1/2-hour meeting.

McDaniels presented his thoughts on what went wrong and changes he felt needed to be made in the coming weeks. The NFL's free agency and trading period opens in 19 days and the first round of the league's draft will be held April 22.

Bowlen offered his thoughts to his coach. After a fourth consecutive season without a playoff appearance, and only one playoff win in 11 seasons, Bowlen isn't looking for status quo.

"There's going to be changes," Bowlen said. "As I look at the team, I think we have a solid football team. There are some areas of the team where'd we like to be better. I have talked with Josh about that. I know what his feelings are. And I've got a great deal of faith in his ability to recognize that and ability to go out and execute it."

Mike Klis: 303-954-1055 or mklis@denverpost.com



Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14399550#ixzz0fgy4h7kv

It has been plain to me that some folks did not read the article, before pontificating about it.

I made it easier to get the most important points out of it. just follow the bouncing ball.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Northman
02-16-2010, 07:06 AM
End the comparison with the NYJ please.

I know it's disgusting to think about but they are far better up front on both lines, especially on Defense their front 7 is far better.

Even a position that Denver would have an edge on against a team's talent is CB, and they even got the Broncos beat with Reevis.

I know they beat them last year at the Meadowlands, but they did finish better and if it weren't for Farve's awful string they would've made the Playoffs.


If not for our poorus defense last year we would of made the playoffs too. :lol:


See how easy that is? Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Fact is, just like Denver they didnt get it done. But, low and behold they did get it done and then some this past year. Some people want to discredit Ryan and what he did this based off of the last two games of the season. Fair enough, i remember Denver a few years ago beating Indy in the regular season and then going and getting their asses stomped in the playoffs. The difference here is that Ryan caught a break with the last two games of the year and then went on to beat one of those teams when it mattered, then on to SD and beat a team that we struggle with, and then almost went into Indy and beat the Colts again. Yea, lucky. :rolleyes::lol:

HORSEPOWER 56
02-16-2010, 07:29 AM
Guess you could say that Ryan DID let it run to the AFC Championship Game

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/20100122_Paul_Domowitch__Jets__Ryan_in_minority_on _offense__not_Eagles__Reid.html

The Jets' Rex Ryan is a ground-and-pound devotee. Run, run and then run some more.

"If you can run the football," said Rex, whose team had a league-high 607 rushing attempts this season, "you've got a great chance to win in this league."

Since the Jets still have a playoff pulse and the Eagles don't, it's hard to argue with Ryan at the moment. The Jets, who will face the Colts in Sunday's AFC Championship Game, averaged an NFL-best 172.3 rushing yards per game this season.

No team in the league threw less often than Ryan's Jets. Just 423 of their 1,030 offensive plays, or 41.1 percent, were pass plays. The fact that the Jets were starting a rookie quarterback obviously had more than a little to do with their play selection. But Ryan clearly believes that you win in the NFL by playing tough defense and pounding the ball on the ground.

Sounds like he worked his "scheme" to fit his players, IMO. ;)

arapaho2
02-16-2010, 10:57 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_14398660?source=rss



good to see. mcdaniels isnt dumb and knows where the real weaknesses of this team are, i hope he fixes em though!


he says what he believes was the weakness...not positive he knows...if that were the case he woulda opened up the o a little bit when we struggled..think outside the box...in our case the box being the area from the LOS out ten yards...that offesne and its limitations were a weakness all season

if he knew the weakness ....i would hope to see a qb drafted as proof

and before he can fix the team..he must fix his own weaknesses..theres a few, believe me

arapaho2
02-16-2010, 11:13 AM
Carol My love you will not change a haters POV, it is not going to happen. Just like mtnman hated Jake for no apparent reason. some of these guys will hate Josh and maybe even Pat until they move on or they get tired of being a bronco fan.

You have been nothing but logical and they can not see the forest for the trees because of their hate.

Time to place them on IGGY.

come one jr...you hated shanny...never a day went by without you ragging and bagging on him...for every little thing..nothing would change that

you got worse when he drafted cutler..then you bagged on both shanny and cutler

as for mntman..he didnt like plummer...but there was alot of apparent reasons...like his ability to throw ints...his penchant for mistakes...earning him the name..jake the mistake plummer...his inability to pass fromthe pocket....his terrible long ball...you recall the lame ducks tumbling to earth dont you..his left handed passes

there was reasons to hate him...just as there were reasons to hate cutler for you...like being drafted

you need to quit being so condensending to posters for the same attitude and type of posts we seen you post for the past four years...in other words pot meet kettle

Lonestar
02-16-2010, 12:09 PM
Mtnman hated Jake day one. Had nothing to do with his time in DEN.

Enough said.

As for me not liking mike the GM that was something very few else understood. Till after he was fired. Everyone. Was ok with him being the Lord of all if we was winning.

But once he got mediocore many jumped from his band wagon. Since he was fired with the exception of some die hards most have leapt.

Did I point out mikes fupaws absolutely. But that was after stanuchly being a mike defender as late as ashley being a rookie.

After that my eyes opened wide to really study what he was doing to the team via Personnel and his total control.

I had facts on my side. The haters do not have anything but hate from day one. Like mtnman did for Jake.

Because Josh is from a hated proven winning Program was enough for some, he smacked his lips for others, because he is short, young, got control in players, changed scheme, mike was God but got fired and last but not least because jay got his panties in a wad.

More reasons to count yet all were oK while we was winning kept from sniping. But the minute there was adversty became a pack of hyenas again. Yapping from the fringes.

See you in a week or two.

Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

rcsodak
02-16-2010, 06:23 PM
I dont think you can say that Pat wanted all this drama and complete overhaul. Ive seen nothing in print to verify that assumption by you. Now, Pat is supporting his HC which is something he has done in the past but that doesnt automatically put Pat in the "he wanted to rebuild this team" mode. Pat stated that 8-8, 7-9, etc werent cutting it. He wants to win, and win NOW. I do think McD will get at least this year and possibly next to do the job but dont kid yourself. Pat wants to be back in the playoffs and in for SB contention and he isnt going to wait 5-10 years down the road to do that. I dont know how you came to that conclusion but that isnt what Pat said when he hired McDaniels.

Guess what. The ONLY way you get a team into the playoffs, FAST, is by free agency...ie overspending. That also gets you into cap-hell.

1. We've witnessed first hand how shanny worked. Flunk at the draft and try to save face by bringing in unwanted/overpriced FA's.

1a. We've also witnessed how that got the team in cap hot water.

I'm of the thought that Mr Bowlen has learned from past errors. No more over-paying for 1/2yr rentals. Especially troubled ones (IHOP anyone?).


2. Yes, McD/Bowlen have both said they want to win "now", and yes, they did bring in a bunch of FA's last year. But most of them were replacements for the shit-ass-terrible Shanny players on defense. Call them a "bridge". He needed some better players to right-the-ship.

In year 2, which is really McD's FIRST full off-season in which he will have a chance to sit down with his scouts/coaches, and FULLY research the incoming class of rookies. (Anybody that wants to argue this point, go ahead and embarrass yourself)

This isn't a "complete overhaul". If it was, they'd have stated who their base players are, and build around them. ie KC

This is strictly a get rid of the shit-ass players who can't/won't fit in, and bring in those that can/will.

They got a good start last year. The players know what is demanded of them and they'll have a good grasp of the schemes/system.

It's now up to them to help lead their incoming teammates. And to try to get better next year.

It's really as simple as that.


"The man who removes a mountain begins by carrying away small stones."
-- Chinese proverb

Northman
02-16-2010, 06:33 PM
Guess what. The ONLY way you get a team into the playoffs, FAST, is by free agency...ie overspending. That also gets you into cap-hell.

1. We've witnessed first hand how shanny worked. Flunk at the draft and try to save face by bringing in unwanted/overpriced FA's.

1a. We've also witnessed how that got the team in cap hot water.

I'm of the thought that Mr Bowlen has learned from past errors. No more over-paying for 1/2yr rentals. Especially troubled ones (IHOP anyone?).


2. Yes, McD/Bowlen have both said they want to win "now", and yes, they did bring in a bunch of FA's last year. But most of them were replacements for the shit-ass-terrible Shanny players on defense. Call them a "bridge". He needed some better players to right-the-ship.

In year 2, which is really McD's FIRST full off-season in which he will have a chance to sit down with his scouts/coaches, and FULLY research the incoming class of rookies. (Anybody that wants to argue this point, go ahead and embarrass yourself)

This isn't a "complete overhaul". If it was, they'd have stated who their base players are, and build around them. ie KC

This is strictly a get rid of the shit-ass players who can't/won't fit in, and bring in those that can/will.

They got a good start last year. The players know what is demanded of them and they'll have a good grasp of the schemes/system.

It's now up to them to help lead their incoming teammates. And to try to get better next year.

It's really as simple as that.


"The man who removes a mountain begins by carrying away small stones."
-- Chinese proverb


Although i agree that Bowlen is learning it doesnt mean that he wont allow McDaniels to try and pursue free agents. Just because Shanny failed at evaluating free agent talent doesnt mean that McDaniels will. As for this being his first year of evaluating talent thats debateable but not written in stone. He came in unprepared and it was unfortuante for the Broncos which he admitted later. But again, more changes being made both in coaching and player personnel doesnt really give me a gleam of optimism. When Spags left the Giants they had a guy behind him who they thought werent going to miss a beat and look what happened. Martindale might be familiar with the scheme that Nolan put in place but there's zero guarantee this guy will be just as successful. Especially if McD doesnt get the necessary help on the Dline which ultimately was our downfall late in the season not too mention our awesome scoring on offense. So yes, he is getting his boyz in place and getting "prepared" for the draft so i expect results in a big way this year. Time to put up or shut up.

rcsodak
02-16-2010, 06:54 PM
That's why keeping Bates as OC might have been a good idea. At least for the first year.

1. Bates didn't want to stay, no?

2. Why do that? Just so they can overhaul in year 2? :confused:

Why is not making the changes in year 1 the best way to go about change? That way, you get it instilled in the players' heads, and then THEY can help the incoming class from their experience!

Instead of everybody thinking they know more than the headcoach does (not aiming at you, spike), why don't they just sit back, see what he's doing, and maybe understand why he's doing it.

Isn't it better to have 40+ "coaches" on the field than a half-dozen?

rcsodak
02-16-2010, 06:58 PM
Umm, it's YOU that continues to use the "system" as an excuse, over and over. What the hell are you talking about? You referenced McDaniels not having the personnel for his system in your last super McDaniels' excuse laden post. Excuses are all anybody seems to come up with, it's just sad.

EXCUSES:what WE use when referring to McD

REASONING:what YOU use when referring to shanny


Gotcha! :lol:

HORSEPOWER 56
02-16-2010, 07:49 PM
EXCUSES:what WE use when referring to McD

REASONING:what YOU use when referring to shanny


Gotcha! :lol:


When did I refer to Shanny other than to say that he's no longer here and that I feel the reason he was given so much time without playoff wins was because he won 2 Superbowls? Other than that, I don't hide behind Shanahan in my criticism of McDaniels.

I'm not like you guys who feel that to defend McDaniels you have to bring up what Shanahan failed to do like it has anything to do with what McDaniels did this past year. Just like anytime I say anything about Orton, the Orton apologists have to immediately bring Cutler into the discussion to justify defending Orton.

If you can't defend McDaniels without attacking Shanny, or defend Orton without attacking Cutler, then it's obvious that you don't have much of a defense.

What you guys keep doing is like bad political attack ads where if I bring up a point like "If McDaniels doesn't get us to the playoffs this year, I think Bowlen will can him", you reply, "Well, he gave Shanahan 10 years to screw up the Broncos, blah, blah, blah".

If I say "Orton's accuracy and scrambling ability is questionable for a starting QB", you reply, "Well, Cutler threw 26 ints with the Bears, at least Orton didn't throw 26 ints".

You see what I mean? You guys are the ones constantly bringing up Shanny and Cutler for comparisons, not me. You guys are deflecting by trying to bring in people that have no real relevance to the discussion as "examples". All I said that started all of this mess is that I think Bowlen is going to give McDaniels one more year to "improve" the Broncos. I don't think going from 8-8 to 8-8 is improvement, some of you disagree. It's fine to disagree, but understand I'm not the one dragging Shanahan into this, you are.

:shots:

TXBRONC
02-17-2010, 06:53 PM
Although i agree that Bowlen is learning it doesnt mean that he wont allow McDaniels to try and pursue free agents. Just because Shanny failed at evaluating free agent talent doesnt mean that McDaniels will. As for this being his first year of evaluating talent thats debateable but not written in stone. He came in unprepared and it was unfortuante for the Broncos which he admitted later. But again, more changes being made both in coaching and player personnel doesnt really give me a gleam of optimism. When Spags left the Giants they had a guy behind him who they thought werent going to miss a beat and look what happened. Martindale might be familiar with the scheme that Nolan put in place but there's zero guarantee this guy will be just as successful. Especially if McD doesnt get the necessary help on the Dline which ultimately was our downfall late in the season not too mention our awesome scoring on offense. So yes, he is getting his boyz in place and getting "prepared" for the draft so i expect results in a big way this year. Time to put up or shut up.

McDaniels has as much power as Shanahan ever did so if he feels that a high profile going to make the team better he's going to do it. Bowlen wont stop him.

tsiguy96
02-17-2010, 10:31 PM
he says what he believes was the weakness...not positive he knows...if that were the case he woulda opened up the o a little bit when we struggled..think outside the box...in our case the box being the area from the LOS out ten yards...that offesne and its limitations were a weakness all season

if he knew the weakness ....i would hope to see a qb drafted as proof

and before he can fix the team..he must fix his own weaknesses..theres a few, believe me

he has plenty of weaknesses, everyone is hoping he can fix himself as well as teh team. orton is not worse than the interior OL played last year, or the run defense, which was one of the worst in the league the last 8 games.

The Glue Factory
02-18-2010, 03:25 PM
When did I refer to Shanny other than to say that he's no longer here and that I feel the reason he was given so much time without playoff wins was because he won 2 Superbowls? Other than that, I don't hide behind Shanahan in my criticism of McDaniels.

I'm not like you guys who feel that to defend McDaniels you have to bring up what Shanahan failed to do like it has anything to do with what McDaniels did this past year. Just like anytime I say anything about Orton, the Orton apologists have to immediately bring Cutler into the discussion to justify defending Orton.

If you can't defend McDaniels without attacking Shanny, or defend Orton without attacking Cutler, then it's obvious that you don't have much of a defense.

What you guys keep doing is like bad political attack ads where if I bring up a point like "If McDaniels doesn't get us to the playoffs this year, I think Bowlen will can him", you reply, "Well, he gave Shanahan 10 years to screw up the Broncos, blah, blah, blah".

If I say "Orton's accuracy and scrambling ability is questionable for a starting QB", you reply, "Well, Cutler threw 26 ints with the Bears, at least Orton didn't throw 26 ints".

You see what I mean? You guys are the ones constantly bringing up Shanny and Cutler for comparisons, not me. You guys are deflecting by trying to bring in people that have no real relevance to the discussion as "examples". All I said that started all of this mess is that I think Bowlen is going to give McDaniels one more year to "improve" the Broncos. I don't think going from 8-8 to 8-8 is improvement, some of you disagree. It's fine to disagree, but understand I'm not the one dragging Shanahan into this, you are.

:shots:

So to make you happy all we can do is compare last year to... last year? How pointless do you want to get?! Not everything to refute your argument has been a comparison to the past, but I guess you just don't want to see it that way.

I find your double-standard infuriating when you provide us "reasons" to support your argument but label other's reasons as excuses. Your reasons can be called excuses just as easily as the excuses of others are by yourself. If you want to have a discussion or debate please be gracious and don't label other people's reasons, opinions or logic as an excuse unless you're willing to have it done to you.

Dirk
02-18-2010, 04:48 PM
One way or another, we will know. Excuses...reasoning...ideas...plans...whatever the case may be.

It will all come out in the wash and not one person here knows how that is going to be. We all just have to wait and see.

And I am along for the ride! Be it good or bad. Hopefully good so we don't have to get another HC for the next 14 years!

HORSEPOWER 56
02-18-2010, 04:56 PM
So to make you happy all we can do is compare last year to... last year? How pointless do you want to get?! Not everything to refute your argument has been a comparison to the past, but I guess you just don't want to see it that way.

I find your double-standard infuriating when you provide us "reasons" to support your argument but label other's reasons as excuses. Your reasons can be called excuses just as easily as the excuses of others are by yourself. If you want to have a discussion or debate please be gracious and don't label other people's reasons, opinions or logic as an excuse unless you're willing to have it done to you.

Fair enough. I've said my peace regarding what I think will happen on this matter. Now I guess it's just wait, see, and hope for the best.

The Glue Factory
02-18-2010, 05:09 PM
Fair enough. I've said my peace regarding what I think will happen on this matter. Now I guess it's just wait, see, and hope for the best.

Isn't it that way regardless of what we say (and how we say it?) :D

rcsodak
02-18-2010, 07:59 PM
When did I refer to Shanny other than to say that he's no longer here and that I feel the reason he was given so much time without playoff wins was because he won 2 Superbowls? Other than that, I don't hide behind Shanahan in my criticism of McDaniels.

I'm not like you guys who feel that to defend McDaniels you have to bring up what Shanahan failed to do like it has anything to do with what McDaniels did this past year. Just like anytime I say anything about Orton, the Orton apologists have to immediately bring Cutler into the discussion to justify defending Orton.

If you can't defend McDaniels without attacking Shanny, or defend Orton without attacking Cutler, then it's obvious that you don't have much of a defense.

What you guys keep doing is like bad political attack ads where if I bring up a point like "If McDaniels doesn't get us to the playoffs this year, I think Bowlen will can him", you reply, "Well, he gave Shanahan 10 years to screw up the Broncos, blah, blah, blah".

If I say "Orton's accuracy and scrambling ability is questionable for a starting QB", you reply, "Well, Cutler threw 26 ints with the Bears, at least Orton didn't throw 26 ints".

You see what I mean? You guys are the ones constantly bringing up Shanny and Cutler for comparisons, not me. You guys are deflecting by trying to bring in people that have no real relevance to the discussion as "examples". All I said that started all of this mess is that I think Bowlen is going to give McDaniels one more year to "improve" the Broncos. I don't think going from 8-8 to 8-8 is improvement, some of you disagree. It's fine to disagree, but understand I'm not the one dragging Shanahan into this, you are.

:shots:

So in other words, all we can do is throw around unfounded accusations, as you are doing?

No thanks.

I'd rather use some rational thinking, and comparative reasoning, myself.

Pretty sure that's what the others are doing, as well. ;)

atwater27
02-18-2010, 08:32 PM
When did I refer to Shanny other than to say that he's no longer here and that I feel the reason he was given so much time without playoff wins was because he won 2 Superbowls? Other than that, I don't hide behind Shanahan in my criticism of McDaniels.

I'm not like you guys who feel that to defend McDaniels you have to bring up what Shanahan failed to do like it has anything to do with what McDaniels did this past year. Just like anytime I say anything about Orton, the Orton apologists have to immediately bring Cutler into the discussion to justify defending Orton.

If you can't defend McDaniels without attacking Shanny, or defend Orton without attacking Cutler, then it's obvious that you don't have much of a defense.

What you guys keep doing is like bad political attack ads where if I bring up a point like "If McDaniels doesn't get us to the playoffs this year, I think Bowlen will can him", you reply, "Well, he gave Shanahan 10 years to screw up the Broncos, blah, blah, blah".

If I say "Orton's accuracy and scrambling ability is questionable for a starting QB", you reply, "Well, Cutler threw 26 ints with the Bears, at least Orton didn't throw 26 ints".

You see what I mean? You guys are the ones constantly bringing up Shanny and Cutler for comparisons, not me. You guys are deflecting by trying to bring in people that have no real relevance to the discussion as "examples". All I said that started all of this mess is that I think Bowlen is going to give McDaniels one more year to "improve" the Broncos. I don't think going from 8-8 to 8-8 is improvement, some of you disagree. It's fine to disagree, but understand I'm not the one dragging Shanahan into this, you are.

:shots:

Right on. Couldn't be more right.:salute: