Plugging The Holes: ESPN Insider

[nevcraw]

Denver Broncos: What went wrong in the second half?
The Broncos' 2-8 collapse after a 6-0 start cost them what appeared to be a guaranteed playoff spot; teams that start 6-0 have historically made the playoffs more than 96 percent of the time. The 2003 Vikings were the only team since 1990 to also start 6-0 and proceed to miss the playoffs. So what changed? And what do the Broncos need to do in 2010 to play more like their first-half version?

Denver can start with something it can't control: Injuries. Denver starters missed only three games from Weeks 1-9, an absurdly low total. From Week 10 on, they missed 10; that's still way below league average, but not a historically low total like the first-half figure was. Unfortunately, injury levels almost always regress to the mean on a year-to-year basis, and the Broncos are all but guaranteed to see more injuries, not fewer, in 2010.

On the field, the biggest difference for Denver across the two halves, though, was its rush defense. Through Week 9, Football Outsiders' advanced DVOA metric (explained here) rated the Denver run defense minus-18.2 percent DVOA against the run, the second-best figure in football. After Week 9, though, the Broncos were miserable: their 11.3 percent DVOA was the second-worst figure in football over the final eight weeks. Teams were able to get into manageable situations by running the ball on first down, averaging 4.95 yards per first-down carry during Weeks 10-17. That's way up from 4.13 yards per first-down carry in the first two months.

So, how to fix it? Denver's already made one move, allowing defensive coordinator Mike Nolan to leave for Miami. (That's not necessarily a good move.) If you're in the camp that chalks up the second-half decline to a worn-down defensive line, the Broncos would be wise to add more big bodies up front that fit their 3-4 scheme. One spot in particular would be at nose tackle, where Ronald Fields is a situational player stretched as a starter. If the Broncos target one player in free agency, it should be 49ers nose tackle Aubrayo Franklin, who would be the perfect fit for their needs and scheme.

[Dean]

Personally, I thought Fields was the best of the 3 D-line starters (even though I agree that he should be a back-up). If I were to start replacing defensive line, I would start with Kenny Peterson. He sucked big time.

[Broncolingus]

This, once again, has been 'broken' for Denver for years...its also been one (if not the top) reasons Denver won only one playoff game in the last 10 years...

...and, until it is fixed (and no, I don't mean it has to be the Ravens of 2000) that trend will only continue.

Personally, I remain a helluva lot more concerned about this (OL too) than our QB, WR, TE, etc. positions...

JMO...

[Ziggy]

Interior Oline is in just as much need of improvement as the Dline. When you can actually run the ball without your backs being constantly met in the backfield, the defense stays fresher during the game. Both lines are in need of overhauls. I'm looking for McD to add at least 4 starters via free agency and the draft.

[EltheWay]

Ok, this thread is the reason I'm stopping lurking and actually registered.

Do you 'Broncos Fans' know anything about freakin' football or do you just root for the colors and let talk radio convince you that you understand the game (and politics)?

For cryin' out loud the Broncos O-Line has been one of the dominant units for the better part of thirteen years now. The zone blocking scheme has allowed the Broncos to not only put up one of the most consistent running games, but one of the best as well. The trademark of Shanahan's consistent winning, year to year, was the protection and efficacy of the offensive line.

Now I understand that Josh McDaniels wanted to install his Daddy's pulling guard scheme. Obviously it was very successful in Ohio prep football, enough to convince McDaniels that it was the way to go in the NFL. Certainly, his time in New England didn't make this impression, as New England, under McDaniels consistently struggled to run the ball, especially when they really needed to, when Brady was hurt, and Cassell was struggling under center.

So regardless of the fact that the proven Gibbs-Dennison zone blocking scheme has worked manufacturing 1,000 yard seasons for Olandis Gary (1999), Mike Andeson (2000, 2005), Reuben Droughns (2004), and Tatum Bell (2006) (and don't even get me started on the FIVE 1,500+ yard seasons of Terrell Davis and Clinton Portis) regardless of this and completely discounting the manner that this system allowed a myriad of non-starting backs to average more than 5.0 YPC for the carries they do get: Glyn Milburn (1995), Vaughn Hebron (1996), Derek Loville (1997, 1999), Detron Smith (1999), Olandis Gary (2000), Tatum Bell (2004, 2005, 2008), Cecil Sapp (2004, 2006), Ron Dayne (2005), Kyle Johnson (2006), Selvin Young (2007, 2008), Peyton Hillis (2008), P.J. Pope (2008), this McMistake comes in and decides that even though he's got an All-Pro Left tackle, even though he's got one of the top young Right tackles in football, even though he's got proven and solid players along the interior of the line as the unit managed 1862 yards rushing in 2008 for a 4.8 YPC average over eleven runners credited with an attempt, regardless of ALL of that, this young "genius" believes that a pulling guard technique is the way to go.

So McMistake forces "his system" onto a O-Line unit that was handpicked for pass blocking and zone blocking. Well, to nobody's surprise, the personnel that excelled at pass blocking and zone blocking were mediocre at best in a scheme calling for a pulling guard. It turns out that NFL linebackers are very fast, and can absolutely fly in open space. It turns out that while a prep guard may be able to block a prep linebacker, in Ohio, that in the NFL, that is a ridiculous proposition, and in fact, the runner will often be brought down from behind by a defensive lineman or linebacker that diagnoses the tendency and run-blitzes through the hole vacated by the pulling guard.

So excuse me if I don't think the "problem" is the offensive line. To me the problem is the freakin' idiot of a head coach that thinks he understands anything about offensive football, that arrogantly believes his "system" is preferable to ALL others. The last time I checked this genius couldn't manage a measly 1,000 yard season with the FIRST running back taken in the ENTIRE freakin' 2009 draft. As long as McMistake hasn't been fired yet, Moreno will be deserving of the nickname "Kno-gain".

Neither is the problem in Denver the defensive line. The defense in Denver didn't break down in the manner that casual fans looking at the numbers might presume. Football is a dynamic game. The offensive units numbers are partly produced as a function of the defensive units ability to get stops, and create additional drives via turnovers. Teh defensive units numbers are partly produced as a function of the offensive units ability to put together drives and keep the opposing offense on the sidelines.

The Broncos 2008 offense was MUCH better than the numbers would indicate. Had the Broncos even had a middling to mediocre defense the offense would have had many additional possessions from which to score and put up stats. In the same vein, had the Broncos 2009 offense had any competent play at Quarterback or had anything resembling an NFL offensive scheme (instead of the obvious and predictable tendencies and play calling that they employed) the 2009 Broncos Defense would have revealed itself as MUCH better than the numbers indicate.

Make no mistake, the Broncos defense didn't "tire" down the stretch, opposing offenses didn't make adjustments to Nolan's 3-4 schemes, as the 3-4 is a very fundamentally sound defense allowing a devastating one two punch of run blitzes and pass blitzes making it difficult for any offense to put together any kind of lengthy drive, no the problem in 2009, which lands at the defense's doorstep, is the complete inability of the Orton/McMistake offense to put any kind of drive together, time after time, after time after time.

The Broncos defense not only played to a sufficient level to keep the Broncos in the game of almost every game played this season, but in fact, the Broncos defense was effective enough, that had the Broncos had anything RESEMBLING a starting NFL quarterback, and anything resembling an effective NFL passing game, and anything resembling a passable NFL running game, the Broncos should have won nearly every game they played. Yes, you read that right. The 2009 Broncos defense was good enough to win nearly EVERY single game the Broncos played. Yes, that translates to being a Super Bowl defense.

You take the Cutler/Marshall/Royal/Scheffler/Hillis offense of 2008 with the two young stud 'Ryan' tackles, and the solid interior of that O-line that returned in 2009, if you don't fire Shanahan and send this club back into irrelevancy, and if you didn't let McMistake waste three first round draft picks on Kno-gain Moreno, Robert "I have no concept of Sportsmanship" Ayers, or Alphonso "Ted Gregory" Smith do you really think that Shanahan couldn't have improved the defense himself?

I mean what position on offense could you have possibly drafted to impove? The Broncos offense was the most dynamic in all of the NFL in 2008. They were a relevant Super Bowl level offense already.

I feel bad for Jay Cutler. In 2008 he felt like he needed to score on every drive. Cutler is a leader, and an accountable player. It was his team and he understood that if he didn't try to make a play, even when nothing was there, the team didn't have a chance to win. Certainly the Broncos defense was going to give up points on seemingly EVERY single possession, as they never demonstrated the ability to stop anybody, ever.

Now that we've seen Cutler traded from probably the best combination of overall skill level talent in the NFL with Marshall, Royal, Stokley, Scheffler, Graham, Hillis etc. along with the best pass blocking and run blocking line in football (including the best left tackle in the game) to Chicago where, arguably, Cutler had the combination of the worst skill level talent and the worst pass/run blocking O-line, its interesting what was revealed.

Namely that Cutler managed to lead the Bears offense to score more points that McMistake and his hand picked QB could score with a loaded for bear Offensive unit. Yep, you didn't hear that from the Denver Post did you (no agenda there, eh?).

I'm a long time Broncos season ticket holder that has loved this team and this franchise for the better part of almost forty years. I can't even say I'm even a Broncos fan anymore.

If being a Broncos fan means having to root for the Broncos to win than I'm definitely not one. I'm rooting for Pat Bowlen to realize what an idiotic owner he is. He's inherited Dan Reeves and John Elway, botched the firing of Reeves in choosing Wade Phillips and wasted ENTIRE drafts of the Wade era during the prime of Elway's career (anybody ever look at those drafts, not a single player came out of them). Bowlen can't take credit for the long-term success the club enjoyed under Shanahan either, because John and Jack Elway lobbying for Shanahan to return led to that hiring. No, Pat Bowlen is a bumbling rich trust fund idiot. He's managed to allow one Woody Paige column, the "fire Bowlen" one, and his own egotistical nonsense to manage something that hasn't occurred around these parts since the mid-seventies, making the Broncos irrelevant.

Mark my words. The Broncos won't be a relevant football team for the better part of the coming decade.

We had it all.

Young stud QB that ESPN's survey of NFL GMs revealed was the best young QB in the game, best young WRs in the game in Marshall and Royal, best power back with the best hands of any RB in the NFL, best young left and right tackle in the game, best young deep threat TE in the game, best blocking TE in the game. Best pure pass rusher in the game. Best cover corner in the game.

Now its gone.

You think Shanahan would have allowed Elvis Dumervil and his 43 sacks in four years to hit free agency? How 'bout Brandon Marshall and his three 100 catch seasons in three years? You think Shanahan would have allowed Champ Bailey to reach the end of his contract?

Mark my words. Five years from now not one of these players will be a Bronco:

Jay Cutler
Brandon Marshall
Peyton Hillis
Champ Bailey
Elvis Dumervil
Eddie Royal
Tony Scheffler
Daniel Graham
Ryan Clady
Ryan Harris


If you can't see the insanity of that core group NOT being Denver Broncos, then you don't understand a darn thing about football. So go back to listening to 850 KOA radio, and reading the Denver Post completely oblivious to the realization that unless they rah-rah the Broncos chances they lose readership/audience share in this fickle market where most Broncos fans are transplants from different regions.

What's wrong with the Broncos, isn't the O-Line, it isn't the three journeyman defensive lineman, it isn't the nose tackle, it isn't even that D.J. Williams is the weirdest combination of best athleticism tied to worst instincts ever seen in an NFL uniform (that's what you get for converting a running back to defense), no the problem with the Denver Broncos is that we have an idiot for an owner.

Pat "I'm in charge" Bowlen fired the best thing that ever happened to him, and in doing so revealed that he's absolutely clueless about the success he's enjoyed in owning this club. One idiot hired another...

What the Broncos need is to not be irrelevant, but that's going to take longer than a decade to turn around.

Champ Bailey will be 32 next season. Brian Dawkins will be 37. Kyle Orton will continue to be inept, but put up fraudulent numbers in the "I can't pass downfield" system that we seem to run. McMistake will continue to lambast Ryan Clady for not being "accountable" as Kno-gain Moreno reveals himself to be a bust, incapable of averaging more than about 3.1 YPC and never seeing a 1,000 yard season.

If a head coach in another NFL market went bust on three first round draft picks (Moreno, Ayers, Smith), and tried to trade his young stud Pro-Bowl QB, then lied about it, then alienated that QB by continuing to be duplicitous about the deception, then alienated his young stud WR, and young stud TE, how long do you think he'd still be a head coach? I mean really?

McMistake managed all of that in a single season. He actually went bust on three first round draft picks in one draft. That's never happened in the history of the NFL draft, to any coach, ever...

So keep posting about what the Broncos need...'cause its just wasted words. This team is doomed, as long as McMistake is running things its going to get a lot worse before its gets better, and that process is going to last a lot longer than anyone realizes...

[SoCalImport]

So keep posting about what the Broncos need...'cause its just wasted words. This team is doomed, as long as McMistake is running things its going to get a lot worse before its gets better, and that process is going to last a lot longer than anyone realizes...

Maybe making a blanket statement about every poster in here is...well..
A little too "DOOM" for my tastes.

So what should people in a Broncos forum post about? How "DOOMED" the team is? That'll get old...actually that got old months ago.
If you can't manage to gain some enjoyment from being a fan of a sport or team then you're right. We're "DOOMED"!

[Dirk]

:rolleyes:

Another McD hater. Hooray! :tsk:


Welcome to the boards. I think.

I have a headache after reading all of that. Although I agree with some of what you wrote, I am willing to give the guy another year or two before I look for a hard hat.

[Skinny]

I just don't think there's anyway SF doesn't lock Franklin up for atleast another year. They would be fools not too. When Patrick Willis speaks, people should listen.

But with Nolans former ties with SF and Aubrayo, Miami would probably be the favorite in the sweepstakes if it came to that. Would love to have him in Denver though.

[claymore]

Ok, this thread is the reason I'm stopping lurking and actually registered.

Do you 'Broncos Fans' know anything about freakin' football or do you just root for the colors and let talk radio convince you that you understand the game (and politics)?
..................................
.........
...............

So keep posting about what the Broncos need...'cause its just wasted words. This team is doomed, as long as McMistake is running things its going to get a lot worse before its gets better, and that process is going to last a lot longer than anyone realizes...

GREAT first post. :salute:

[NightTrainLayne]

Welcome to the board EltheWay.

That post has to be the most amazing first post I've ever seen from a poster. I hope you feel better after getting that all off your chest. I agree with some, and disagree with a lot of it, but it's a well thought out criticism.

The problem is, that it insinuates over and over that we'd be better off with Shanahan here continuing to run Shanny's system. That's all well and good, and I understand that line of thought. But then, you appear to denigrate McD for not continuing to run Shanny's system. That's just an avoidance of reality.

Once Shanny was gone, so too were his systems. It doesn't matter who got hired, the odds are close to 100% that the new coach would be running an entirely different system, requiring a different skill-set of players, especially along the interior O-line.

Also, you talk about how great the 3-4 is, and that it's not the D-line's fault but the offense. . ..well that's a HUGE check-mark in McD's favor if you ask me. After-all, Shanny was going to keep the inept Slowik as his D coordinator, which would have meant more of what we saw in 2008. .. certainly no switch to the 3-4 which McD instituted (admittedly with the help of Nolan).

I can't agree at all with your criticism of Bowlen. My feeling as a fan since I was a toddler is that Bowlen is one of the best owner's in the league, and certainly not a "trust-fund" idiot.

Finally, I am dumbfounded by the following statement you made:


If being a Broncos fan means having to root for the Broncos to win than I'm definitely not one.

An odd statement. I guess you have defined yourself, in your own words, as not being a Bronco fan. .. That's kinda sad. I've wondered often over the past 8-9 years why our stadium never seemed to be the same as the old Mile High. I wonder how many other season ticket holders aren't fans anymore either. My guess is, based on the lackluster support is that a big portion of them aren't. That's sad for all of us.

[TXBRONC]

Personally, I thought Fields was the best of the 3 D-line starters (even though I agree that he should be a back-up). If I were to start replacing defensive line, I would start with Kenny Peterson. He sucked big time.

I agree with you about Fields he was the best of the three starting defensive linemen. I also agree that we could make do with Fields if upgraded the defensive ends slots. That being said right now I think we're probably going to be in a position to draft Terrance Cody, in my humble opinion he would be an upgrade over Fields.

[rationalfan]

EltheWay,

I stopped reading your post after about 35 percent of it - brevity is the key on the Internet. So, if you addressed this later forgive me.

But it's rather subjective to dislike McD for not using a system that his predecessor developed. Each coach will have his own philosophies. They're Type A personalities, it's to be expected. For instance, if you take my job I won't expect you to work exactly the way I do - and I'm sure you wouldn't either.

The other side of this discussion is that people carry so much vitriol toward McD's choice to change a system that worked. Yet, the people who present that attack fail to look at the flip side; McD's trying to change the personnel to fit his system that was very successful, one that set the league's scoring record.

I was too young to pay attention to this at the time, but I suspect Shanny received similar criticism when he decided to dump big money free agent receivers for undrafted or waiver wire receivers. And I'm sure he inspired a lot of vitriol when he decided to start an uknown 6th round draft pick at running back. But it worked.

Give McD time to fail, or succeed.

[dogfish]

Ok, this thread is the reason I'm stopping lurking and actually registered.

Do you 'Broncos Fans' know anything about freakin' football or do you just root for the colors and let talk radio convince you that you understand the game (and politics)?

For cryin' out loud the Broncos O-Line has been one of the dominant units for the better part of thirteen years now. The zone blocking scheme has allowed the Broncos to not only put up one of the most consistent running games, but one of the best as well. The trademark of Shanahan's consistent winning, year to year, was the protection and efficacy of the offensive line.

Now I understand that Josh McDaniels wanted to install his Daddy's pulling guard scheme. Obviously it was very successful in Ohio prep football, enough to convince McDaniels that it was the way to go in the NFL. Certainly, his time in New England didn't make this impression, as New England, under McDaniels consistently struggled to run the ball, especially when they really needed to, when Brady was hurt, and Cassell was struggling under center.

So regardless of the fact that the proven Gibbs-Dennison zone blocking scheme has worked manufacturing 1,000 yard seasons for Olandis Gary (1999), Mike Andeson (2000, 2005), Reuben Droughns (2004), and Tatum Bell (2006) (and don't even get me started on the FIVE 1,500+ yard seasons of Terrell Davis and Clinton Portis) regardless of this and completely discounting the manner that this system allowed a myriad of non-starting backs to average more than 5.0 YPC for the carries they do get: Glyn Milburn (1995), Vaughn Hebron (1996), Derek Loville (1997, 1999), Detron Smith (1999), Olandis Gary (2000), Tatum Bell (2004, 2005, 2008), Cecil Sapp (2004, 2006), Ron Dayne (2005), Kyle Johnson (2006), Selvin Young (2007, 2008), Peyton Hillis (2008), P.J. Pope (2008), this McMistake comes in and decides that even though he's got an All-Pro Left tackle, even though he's got one of the top young Right tackles in football, even though he's got proven and solid players along the interior of the line as the unit managed 1862 yards rushing in 2008 for a 4.8 YPC average over eleven runners credited with an attempt, regardless of ALL of that, this young "genius" believes that a pulling guard technique is the way to go.

So McMistake forces "his system" onto a O-Line unit that was handpicked for pass blocking and zone blocking. Well, to nobody's surprise, the personnel that excelled at pass blocking and zone blocking were mediocre at best in a scheme calling for a pulling guard. It turns out that NFL linebackers are very fast, and can absolutely fly in open space. It turns out that while a prep guard may be able to block a prep linebacker, in Ohio, that in the NFL, that is a ridiculous proposition, and in fact, the runner will often be brought down from behind by a defensive lineman or linebacker that diagnoses the tendency and run-blitzes through the hole vacated by the pulling guard.

So excuse me if I don't think the "problem" is the offensive line. To me the problem is the freakin' idiot of a head coach that thinks he understands anything about offensive football, that arrogantly believes his "system" is preferable to ALL others. The last time I checked this genius couldn't manage a measly 1,000 yard season with the FIRST running back taken in the ENTIRE freakin' 2009 draft. As long as McMistake hasn't been fired yet, Moreno will be deserving of the nickname "Kno-gain".

Neither is the problem in Denver the defensive line. The defense in Denver didn't break down in the manner that casual fans looking at the numbers might presume. Football is a dynamic game. The offensive units numbers are partly produced as a function of the defensive units ability to get stops, and create additional drives via turnovers. Teh defensive units numbers are partly produced as a function of the offensive units ability to put together drives and keep the opposing offense on the sidelines.

The Broncos 2008 offense was MUCH better than the numbers would indicate. Had the Broncos even had a middling to mediocre defense the offense would have had many additional possessions from which to score and put up stats. In the same vein, had the Broncos 2009 offense had any competent play at Quarterback or had anything resembling an NFL offensive scheme (instead of the obvious and predictable tendencies and play calling that they employed) the 2009 Broncos Defense would have revealed itself as MUCH better than the numbers indicate.

Make no mistake, the Broncos defense didn't "tire" down the stretch, opposing offenses didn't make adjustments to Nolan's 3-4 schemes, as the 3-4 is a very fundamentally sound defense allowing a devastating one two punch of run blitzes and pass blitzes making it difficult for any offense to put together any kind of lengthy drive, no the problem in 2009, which lands at the defense's doorstep, is the complete inability of the Orton/McMistake offense to put any kind of drive together, time after time, after time after time.

The Broncos defense not only played to a sufficient level to keep the Broncos in the game of almost every game played this season, but in fact, the Broncos defense was effective enough, that had the Broncos had anything RESEMBLING a starting NFL quarterback, and anything resembling an effective NFL passing game, and anything resembling a passable NFL running game, the Broncos should have won nearly every game they played. Yes, you read that right. The 2009 Broncos defense was good enough to win nearly EVERY single game the Broncos played. Yes, that translates to being a Super Bowl defense.

You take the Cutler/Marshall/Royal/Scheffler/Hillis offense of 2008 with the two young stud 'Ryan' tackles, and the solid interior of that O-line that returned in 2009, if you don't fire Shanahan and send this club back into irrelevancy, and if you didn't let McMistake waste three first round draft picks on Kno-gain Moreno, Robert "I have no concept of Sportsmanship" Ayers, or Alphonso "Ted Gregory" Smith do you really think that Shanahan couldn't have improved the defense himself?

I mean what position on offense could you have possibly drafted to impove? The Broncos offense was the most dynamic in all of the NFL in 2008. They were a relevant Super Bowl level offense already.

I feel bad for Jay Cutler. In 2008 he felt like he needed to score on every drive. Cutler is a leader, and an accountable player. It was his team and he understood that if he didn't try to make a play, even when nothing was there, the team didn't have a chance to win. Certainly the Broncos defense was going to give up points on seemingly EVERY single possession, as they never demonstrated the ability to stop anybody, ever.

Now that we've seen Cutler traded from probably the best combination of overall skill level talent in the NFL with Marshall, Royal, Stokley, Scheffler, Graham, Hillis etc. along with the best pass blocking and run blocking line in football (including the best left tackle in the game) to Chicago where, arguably, Cutler had the combination of the worst skill level talent and the worst pass/run blocking O-line, its interesting what was revealed.

Namely that Cutler managed to lead the Bears offense to score more points that McMistake and his hand picked QB could score with a loaded for bear Offensive unit. Yep, you didn't hear that from the Denver Post did you (no agenda there, eh?).

I'm a long time Broncos season ticket holder that has loved this team and this franchise for the better part of almost forty years. I can't even say I'm even a Broncos fan anymore.

If being a Broncos fan means having to root for the Broncos to win than I'm definitely not one. I'm rooting for Pat Bowlen to realize what an idiotic owner he is. He's inherited Dan Reeves and John Elway, botched the firing of Reeves in choosing Wade Phillips and wasted ENTIRE drafts of the Wade era during the prime of Elway's career (anybody ever look at those drafts, not a single player came out of them). Bowlen can't take credit for the long-term success the club enjoyed under Shanahan either, because John and Jack Elway lobbying for Shanahan to return led to that hiring. No, Pat Bowlen is a bumbling rich trust fund idiot. He's managed to allow one Woody Paige column, the "fire Bowlen" one, and his own egotistical nonsense to manage something that hasn't occurred around these parts since the mid-seventies, making the Broncos irrelevant.

Mark my words. The Broncos won't be a relevant football team for the better part of the coming decade.

We had it all.

Young stud QB that ESPN's survey of NFL GMs revealed was the best young QB in the game, best young WRs in the game in Marshall and Royal, best power back with the best hands of any RB in the NFL, best young left and right tackle in the game, best young deep threat TE in the game, best blocking TE in the game. Best pure pass rusher in the game. Best cover corner in the game.

Now its gone.

You think Shanahan would have allowed Elvis Dumervil and his 43 sacks in four years to hit free agency? How 'bout Brandon Marshall and his three 100 catch seasons in three years? You think Shanahan would have allowed Champ Bailey to reach the end of his contract?

Mark my words. Five years from now not one of these players will be a Bronco:

Jay Cutler
Brandon Marshall
Peyton Hillis
Champ Bailey
Elvis Dumervil
Eddie Royal
Tony Scheffler
Daniel Graham
Ryan Clady
Ryan Harris


If you can't see the insanity of that core group NOT being Denver Broncos, then you don't understand a darn thing about football. So go back to listening to 850 KOA radio, and reading the Denver Post completely oblivious to the realization that unless they rah-rah the Broncos chances they lose readership/audience share in this fickle market where most Broncos fans are transplants from different regions.

What's wrong with the Broncos, isn't the O-Line, it isn't the three journeyman defensive lineman, it isn't the nose tackle, it isn't even that D.J. Williams is the weirdest combination of best athleticism tied to worst instincts ever seen in an NFL uniform (that's what you get for converting a running back to defense), no the problem with the Denver Broncos is that we have an idiot for an owner.

Pat "I'm in charge" Bowlen fired the best thing that ever happened to him, and in doing so revealed that he's absolutely clueless about the success he's enjoyed in owning this club. One idiot hired another...

What the Broncos need is to not be irrelevant, but that's going to take longer than a decade to turn around.

Champ Bailey will be 32 next season. Brian Dawkins will be 37. Kyle Orton will continue to be inept, but put up fraudulent numbers in the "I can't pass downfield" system that we seem to run. McMistake will continue to lambast Ryan Clady for not being "accountable" as Kno-gain Moreno reveals himself to be a bust, incapable of averaging more than about 3.1 YPC and never seeing a 1,000 yard season.

If a head coach in another NFL market went bust on three first round draft picks (Moreno, Ayers, Smith), and tried to trade his young stud Pro-Bowl QB, then lied about it, then alienated that QB by continuing to be duplicitous about the deception, then alienated his young stud WR, and young stud TE, how long do you think he'd still be a head coach? I mean really?

McMistake managed all of that in a single season. He actually went bust on three first round draft picks in one draft. That's never happened in the history of the NFL draft, to any coach, ever...

So keep posting about what the Broncos need...'cause its just wasted words. This team is doomed, as long as McMistake is running things its going to get a lot worse before its gets better, and that process is going to last a lot longer than anyone realizes...

and after all this angry blather, you do realize that the "idiot" head coach produced a season that was remarkably similar to what the guy with the super bowl rings had been putting out there, right?

McD was a rookie, what was mike's excuse?

for all your apparent belief in your own football genius, you should know that you didn't say a single damn thing that hasn't been debated on here ad nauseum, so don't wrench your shoulder patting yourself on the back. . . :wave:

i happen to agree that it was a bad move to impliment a different blocking sscheme without the proper personnel in place, but your suggestion that a traditional power blocking scheme is only fit for high school football flies in the face of reality. . . look over the list of super bowl winners from the past decade, and tell me how many predominantly ZBS teams you see. . .

for all our statistical success, no one has been afraid of our running game since probably the day clinton portis left. . .

also, show me ANY evidence that shanahan was capable of fixing the defense. . . you do know that he'd committed to bringing back one of the worst defensive coordinators in league history, right? and the guy had drafted all of about two or three quality defensive players in the last decade. . .

hey, we all wish we could go back to mike's glory years, but how many years do you fall short before you try something else? i wasn't happy about the cutler trade either, but for all your talk about the best young this and the best young that, we won eight games last year and had the worst defense i have ever seen. . .


also. . . if you aren't a fan of the broncos, why are you here? with your deep understanding of the game, you're clearly entitled to watch more relevant football than mcidiot can provide. . . i hear the saints still have some room on the bandwagon, our feelings won't be hurt if you decide to go check that out. . .

[Elevation inc]

mcbean and peterson were the worst startiong 3-4 De's in football over the course of the season....holliday was our best DE but he is a rotation guy though he should be brought back.., LE kevin smith is also good but his knee injury slowed him down.....

honestly fields should be in NT rotation with baker or thomas like this year and marcus thomas or baker should kick outside and we should select a guy like odrick, alulua, jones, or carrington in the draft for RE 5 technique, thrown in smith and holliday for a fresh 5 technique rotation and we would be ten times better just off that.

getting someone like franklin or Dan williams to that Nt role scenario would make our DL elite in my opinion.....then we could still work baker on the back burner a bit as well.....

throw in john jerry from ole miss, and a guy like JD walton at center and our Lines become much improved.....

[Elevation inc]

Ok, this thread is the reason I'm stopping lurking and actually registered.

Do you 'Broncos Fans' know anything about freakin' football or do you just root for the colors and let talk radio convince you that you understand the game (and politics)?

For cryin' out loud the Broncos O-Line has been one of the dominant units for the better part of thirteen years now. The zone blocking scheme has allowed the Broncos to not only put up one of the most consistent running games, but one of the best as well. The trademark of Shanahan's consistent winning, year to year, was the protection and efficacy of the offensive line.


lol your funny perhaps you should have kept lurking....you know the last team to win a SB with that famed ZBS system................us in 1998....wow 12 years ago....that system sure does work for stats between the 20's right, but isnt the goal of this game to win a SB not look pretty running from the 20-20????


the system ran its course and denver has yet to evolve which is probally why we havent been back yet.....

times change now teams like the texans and oakland use the ZBS as well....hows that working for them????? lol

im glad the zbs has finally left and i hope it never comes back....maybe we will actually have a OL that can run block in december and january for a change......lots of redzone rushing TD's would be nice to, finally.....

but hey you do your thing superman.....:rolleyes:

[Lonestar]

Well I see we have another mike/jay lover and Josh?Kyle hater join the ranks.

quite a post for about the 2 paragraphs I read of it. After that I was wondering if slowitt had joined us.

Clearly he was wrong in several areas, especially about all of the talent we will supposedly lose because Josh is the coach.

I will agree somewhat about changing the blocking scheme, it probably should not have been done until the players are there to do so.o\

But then you have to ask, when he came to town and kept dennison and read all the press clipping about how great a OLINE we had. Does anyone think that he discussed this change with them (Rick and the Oline) and got assurances that they could do it?

Could be the reason that hamilton was dumped and dennison was "allowed" to leave with out any thought of promoting him?

When Josh came to town he said we would get bigger, stronger, faster and meaner across the board. I'll bet dollars to donuts that they were given a strengthing guideline to beef up the OLINE and instruction on how he wanted them to block. Either dennison was a failure in this area or the OLINE was. Now to be fair to rick he was a LB in his career here and was brought on and learned under a master of the ZBS, so how could he know how to teach them anything but ZBS. He had NO practical experience to fall back on.

So who is responsible for that I'm guessing the Buck stops at Joshes doorstep, but I'll bet that Pats insistence that he stay and the rep of the loin had something to mitigate that.

As for the rest of the rant I hope he/she got it out of their system. Other wise the logins of negative nancy or debbie downer are available. all he has to do is ask admin to change his logon.:D

[Lonestar]

lol your funny perhaps you should have kept lurking....you know the last team to win a SB with that famed ZBS system................us in 1998....wow 12 years ago....that system sure does work for stats between the 20's right, but isnt the goal of this game to win a SB not look pretty running from the 20-20????


the system ran its course and denver has yet to evolve which is probally why we havent been back yet.....

times change now teams like the texans and oakland use the ZBS as well....hows that working for them????? lol

im glad the zbs has finally left and i hope it never comes back....maybe we will actually have a OL that can run block in december and january for a change......lots of redzone rushing TD's would be nice to, finally.....

but hey you do your thing superman.....:rolleyes:


I'd guess if we would have had ha same OLINE as we did in the SB years, perhaps we would have went back a couple of times. But mike got cheap on players on the LOS thinking that he could use 4th to 7th rounders and make it work like the old days.

NAnd we were pretty damned good between the 20's and one of the reasons that Jason maybe be a HOF kicker with all the use he got kicking 35 to 50 yarders for almost a decade. he had a pretty damned good % of them but considering how many he did he got a lot of practice.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

It is not time to move on and do what the big boys do to win in the playoffs.

They win red zone battles with talented BIGGER LOS players. It is once having talented players that can think but sometimes you just need the BEEF. If the defenders stay and home and do not over pursue the ZBS does not have a chance for cut back runners.

As more and more teams moved to the ZBS DC got wise to it, because they were playing more teams doing it (for the most part with larger player than we).
NOw it is not unique and they only see us every so many years they have to plan for it more. It was matter of time before it beat.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

lol your funny perhaps you should have kept lurking....you know the last team to win a SB with that famed ZBS system................us in 1998....wow 12 years ago....that system sure does work for stats between the 20's right, but isnt the goal of this game to win a SB not look pretty running from the 20-20????


the system ran its course and denver has yet to evolve which is probally why we havent been back yet.....

times change now teams like the texans and oakland use the ZBS as well....hows that working for them????? lol

im glad the zbs has finally left and i hope it never comes back....maybe we will actually have a OL that can run block in december and january for a change......lots of redzone rushing TD's would be nice to, finally.....

but hey you do your thing superman.....:rolleyes:

Technically, Indianapolis uses the heck out of the outside zone running scheme. It's the cornerstone to their play-action passing game as a matter of fact. No, Indy isn't exactly a dominant running football team (what did they rank, dead last in rushing this year? :confused:) but they did win a Superbowl this decade and have been the most competitive team in the league over the past decade.

I understand your point, but technically you're not exactly correct on this one.

[wbmustang]

Ok, this thread is the reason I'm stopping lurking and actually registered.

Do you 'Broncos Fans' know anything about freakin' football or do you just root for the colors and let talk radio convince you that you understand the game (and politics)?

For cryin' out loud the Broncos O-Line has been one of the dominant units for the better part of thirteen years now. The zone blocking scheme has allowed the Broncos to not only put up one of the most consistent running games, but one of the best as well. The trademark of Shanahan's consistent winning, year to year, was the protection and efficacy of the offensive line.

Now I understand that Josh McDaniels wanted to install his Daddy's pulling guard scheme. Obviously it was very successful in Ohio prep football, enough to convince McDaniels that it was the way to go in the NFL. Certainly, his time in New England didn't make this impression, as New England, under McDaniels consistently struggled to run the ball, especially when they really needed to, when Brady was hurt, and Cassell was struggling under center.

So regardless of the fact that the proven Gibbs-Dennison zone blocking scheme has worked manufacturing 1,000 yard seasons for Olandis Gary (1999), Mike Andeson (2000, 2005), Reuben Droughns (2004), and Tatum Bell (2006) (and don't even get me started on the FIVE 1,500+ yard seasons of Terrell Davis and Clinton Portis) regardless of this and completely discounting the manner that this system allowed a myriad of non-starting backs to average more than 5.0 YPC for the carries they do get: Glyn Milburn (1995), Vaughn Hebron (1996), Derek Loville (1997, 1999), Detron Smith (1999), Olandis Gary (2000), Tatum Bell (2004, 2005, 2008), Cecil Sapp (2004, 2006), Ron Dayne (2005), Kyle Johnson (2006), Selvin Young (2007, 2008), Peyton Hillis (2008), P.J. Pope (2008), this McMistake comes in and decides that even though he's got an All-Pro Left tackle, even though he's got one of the top young Right tackles in football, even though he's got proven and solid players along the interior of the line as the unit managed 1862 yards rushing in 2008 for a 4.8 YPC average over eleven runners credited with an attempt, regardless of ALL of that, this young "genius" believes that a pulling guard technique is the way to go.

So McMistake forces "his system" onto a O-Line unit that was handpicked for pass blocking and zone blocking. Well, to nobody's surprise, the personnel that excelled at pass blocking and zone blocking were mediocre at best in a scheme calling for a pulling guard. It turns out that NFL linebackers are very fast, and can absolutely fly in open space. It turns out that while a prep guard may be able to block a prep linebacker, in Ohio, that in the NFL, that is a ridiculous proposition, and in fact, the runner will often be brought down from behind by a defensive lineman or linebacker that diagnoses the tendency and run-blitzes through the hole vacated by the pulling guard.

So excuse me if I don't think the "problem" is the offensive line. To me the problem is the freakin' idiot of a head coach that thinks he understands anything about offensive football, that arrogantly believes his "system" is preferable to ALL others. The last time I checked this genius couldn't manage a measly 1,000 yard season with the FIRST running back taken in the ENTIRE freakin' 2009 draft. As long as McMistake hasn't been fired yet, Moreno will be deserving of the nickname "Kno-gain".

Neither is the problem in Denver the defensive line. The defense in Denver didn't break down in the manner that casual fans looking at the numbers might presume. Football is a dynamic game. The offensive units numbers are partly produced as a function of the defensive units ability to get stops, and create additional drives via turnovers. Teh defensive units numbers are partly produced as a function of the offensive units ability to put together drives and keep the opposing offense on the sidelines.

The Broncos 2008 offense was MUCH better than the numbers would indicate. Had the Broncos even had a middling to mediocre defense the offense would have had many additional possessions from which to score and put up stats. In the same vein, had the Broncos 2009 offense had any competent play at Quarterback or had anything resembling an NFL offensive scheme (instead of the obvious and predictable tendencies and play calling that they employed) the 2009 Broncos Defense would have revealed itself as MUCH better than the numbers indicate.

Make no mistake, the Broncos defense didn't "tire" down the stretch, opposing offenses didn't make adjustments to Nolan's 3-4 schemes, as the 3-4 is a very fundamentally sound defense allowing a devastating one two punch of run blitzes and pass blitzes making it difficult for any offense to put together any kind of lengthy drive, no the problem in 2009, which lands at the defense's doorstep, is the complete inability of the Orton/McMistake offense to put any kind of drive together, time after time, after time after time.

The Broncos defense not only played to a sufficient level to keep the Broncos in the game of almost every game played this season, but in fact, the Broncos defense was effective enough, that had the Broncos had anything RESEMBLING a starting NFL quarterback, and anything resembling an effective NFL passing game, and anything resembling a passable NFL running game, the Broncos should have won nearly every game they played. Yes, you read that right. The 2009 Broncos defense was good enough to win nearly EVERY single game the Broncos played. Yes, that translates to being a Super Bowl defense.

You take the Cutler/Marshall/Royal/Scheffler/Hillis offense of 2008 with the two young stud 'Ryan' tackles, and the solid interior of that O-line that returned in 2009, if you don't fire Shanahan and send this club back into irrelevancy, and if you didn't let McMistake waste three first round draft picks on Kno-gain Moreno, Robert "I have no concept of Sportsmanship" Ayers, or Alphonso "Ted Gregory" Smith do you really think that Shanahan couldn't have improved the defense himself?

I mean what position on offense could you have possibly drafted to impove? The Broncos offense was the most dynamic in all of the NFL in 2008. They were a relevant Super Bowl level offense already.

I feel bad for Jay Cutler. In 2008 he felt like he needed to score on every drive. Cutler is a leader, and an accountable player. It was his team and he understood that if he didn't try to make a play, even when nothing was there, the team didn't have a chance to win. Certainly the Broncos defense was going to give up points on seemingly EVERY single possession, as they never demonstrated the ability to stop anybody, ever.

Now that we've seen Cutler traded from probably the best combination of overall skill level talent in the NFL with Marshall, Royal, Stokley, Scheffler, Graham, Hillis etc. along with the best pass blocking and run blocking line in football (including the best left tackle in the game) to Chicago where, arguably, Cutler had the combination of the worst skill level talent and the worst pass/run blocking O-line, its interesting what was revealed.

Namely that Cutler managed to lead the Bears offense to score more points that McMistake and his hand picked QB could score with a loaded for bear Offensive unit. Yep, you didn't hear that from the Denver Post did you (no agenda there, eh?).

I'm a long time Broncos season ticket holder that has loved this team and this franchise for the better part of almost forty years. I can't even say I'm even a Broncos fan anymore.

If being a Broncos fan means having to root for the Broncos to win than I'm definitely not one. I'm rooting for Pat Bowlen to realize what an idiotic owner he is. He's inherited Dan Reeves and John Elway, botched the firing of Reeves in choosing Wade Phillips and wasted ENTIRE drafts of the Wade era during the prime of Elway's career (anybody ever look at those drafts, not a single player came out of them). Bowlen can't take credit for the long-term success the club enjoyed under Shanahan either, because John and Jack Elway lobbying for Shanahan to return led to that hiring. No, Pat Bowlen is a bumbling rich trust fund idiot. He's managed to allow one Woody Paige column, the "fire Bowlen" one, and his own egotistical nonsense to manage something that hasn't occurred around these parts since the mid-seventies, making the Broncos irrelevant.

Mark my words. The Broncos won't be a relevant football team for the better part of the coming decade.

We had it all.

Young stud QB that ESPN's survey of NFL GMs revealed was the best young QB in the game, best young WRs in the game in Marshall and Royal, best power back with the best hands of any RB in the NFL, best young left and right tackle in the game, best young deep threat TE in the game, best blocking TE in the game. Best pure pass rusher in the game. Best cover corner in the game.

Now its gone.

You think Shanahan would have allowed Elvis Dumervil and his 43 sacks in four years to hit free agency? How 'bout Brandon Marshall and his three 100 catch seasons in three years? You think Shanahan would have allowed Champ Bailey to reach the end of his contract?

Mark my words. Five years from now not one of these players will be a Bronco:

Jay Cutler
Brandon Marshall
Peyton Hillis
Champ Bailey
Elvis Dumervil
Eddie Royal
Tony Scheffler
Daniel Graham
Ryan Clady
Ryan Harris


If you can't see the insanity of that core group NOT being Denver Broncos, then you don't understand a darn thing about football. So go back to listening to 850 KOA radio, and reading the Denver Post completely oblivious to the realization that unless they rah-rah the Broncos chances they lose readership/audience share in this fickle market where most Broncos fans are transplants from different regions.

What's wrong with the Broncos, isn't the O-Line, it isn't the three journeyman defensive lineman, it isn't the nose tackle, it isn't even that D.J. Williams is the weirdest combination of best athleticism tied to worst instincts ever seen in an NFL uniform (that's what you get for converting a running back to defense), no the problem with the Denver Broncos is that we have an idiot for an owner.

Pat "I'm in charge" Bowlen fired the best thing that ever happened to him, and in doing so revealed that he's absolutely clueless about the success he's enjoyed in owning this club. One idiot hired another...

What the Broncos need is to not be irrelevant, but that's going to take longer than a decade to turn around.

Champ Bailey will be 32 next season. Brian Dawkins will be 37. Kyle Orton will continue to be inept, but put up fraudulent numbers in the "I can't pass downfield" system that we seem to run. McMistake will continue to lambast Ryan Clady for not being "accountable" as Kno-gain Moreno reveals himself to be a bust, incapable of averaging more than about 3.1 YPC and never seeing a 1,000 yard season.

If a head coach in another NFL market went bust on three first round draft picks (Moreno, Ayers, Smith), and tried to trade his young stud Pro-Bowl QB, then lied about it, then alienated that QB by continuing to be duplicitous about the deception, then alienated his young stud WR, and young stud TE, how long do you think he'd still be a head coach? I mean really?

McMistake managed all of that in a single season. He actually went bust on three first round draft picks in one draft. That's never happened in the history of the NFL draft, to any coach, ever...

So keep posting about what the Broncos need...'cause its just wasted words. This team is doomed, as long as McMistake is running things its going to get a lot worse before its gets better, and that process is going to last a lot longer than anyone realizes...

TLDR= Too Long Didn't Read

[Elevation inc]

Technically, Indianapolis uses the heck out of the outside zone running scheme. It's the cornerstone to their play-action passing game as a matter of fact. No, Indy isn't exactly a dominant running football team (what did they rank, dead last in rushing this year? :confused:) but they did win a Superbowl this decade and have been the most competitive team in the league over the past decade.

I understand your point, but technically you're not exactly correct on this one.

lol and they arent a great running team and never have been.....although addai was beasting it in the SB, but a ZBS oriented attack like denvers, houstons, and oaklands is what i was refering to...matter of fact our hybrid crap this year is kinda what indy tries...and that got them nowhere once peyton was shut down....and there own GM is now blaming the OL for losing the SB....

so i still concur the ZBS has run its course...some zone runs are good and a part of the package which mcd did say he would use but it is time to get lineman that can simply owerpower DT's 1v1 rather than needing help it will simply open the offense and run game up more...itys a new game and that full zbs just doesnt get it done....and a nybrid just gets to confusing these days.....pick what you want and roll with it....

but i understand your train of thought as well......

[Elevation inc]

Technically, Indianapolis uses the heck out of the outside zone running scheme. It's the cornerstone to their play-action passing game as a matter of fact. No, Indy isn't exactly a dominant running football team (what did they rank, dead last in rushing this year? :confused:) but they did win a Superbowl this decade and have been the most competitive team in the league over the past decade.
I understand your point, but technically you're not exactly correct on this one.

lol i missed this:D.....2 words PEYTON MANNING!!!!!! not a rush attack....

[Brand]

The last team to win a SB using the ZBS was the Broncos......

The ZBS loses punch in the running game in the red Zone. Frankly, the issue is that the Broncos need Olinemen wh oare bigger who can power block and can use the ZBS. They need the larger athletic linemen rather than the smaller athletic linmen. Further, the League has created rules that have limited the ZBS (crack back blocks) that made it work.

I would bet that Shanahan's scheme in Washington will not be the same ZBS he used in Denver.