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TXBRONC
03-06-2008, 09:03 PM
I haven't seen this article posted anywhere so I though I would bring to your attention. The last paragraph goes along way to explaining why Denver didn't deal for Robertson or Rogers.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=369855

Broncos Team Report
Posted: March 3, 2008
Lee Rasizer
For Sporting News


PERSONNEL ANALYSIS:

The Broncos' first foray into free agency landed them WR Keary Colbert. It isn't exactly the splashy move, but it helps address a need. Javon Walker's departure leaves a gaping hole at No. 2 receiver. Denver would prefer that Brandon Stokley remain in the slot on obvious passing downs as a No. 3. Colbert has decent speed and should be able to stretch the field, allowing Brandon Marshall and Stokley to work underneath. But Denver almost certainly isn't finished acquiring receivers. They might try to add a vertical threat in the draft. Keep an eye on Cal's DeSean Jackson, who could also fill the need for a kick returner. ...

In the next week, Denver is likely to land an additional safety capable of starting. They weren't going to throw around big dough for the likes of Gibril Wilson or Madieu Williams. Instead, players such as Sammy Knight and Marquand Manuel will get looks. John Lynch's return doesn't affect the need to fortify that spot, particularly given Hamza Abdullah's inexperience and Lynch's age. And Denver could even take a safety on the first say of the draft.

SCOUTING REPORT:

Guard Ben Hamilton's return will help the Broncos' offensive line. While he's not the ideal size and isn't a road-grader, he's excellent at using his hands to knock defenders off balance and at using his body to create seams. Hamilton also has good feet and plays well in space. He missed all of last season with post-concussion symptoms that affected his personality, but so far, he has been cleared to return this season. But unlike past seasons, he'll face stiff competition for his starting job -- the roles of fellow guards Chris Myers and Chris Kuper expanded in 2007. Still, Hamilton's deep knowledge of Denver's scheme should help his bid.

HARD TRUTH:

The Broncos finally appear to recognize that the open-checkbook policy on free agency doesn't work unless a young core already is in place. Denver has several players with limited experience expected to be key contributors next season, and the team seems willing to let them grow into their roles. The challenge now is continuing to build upon that core while bringing in middle-tier free agents to increase depth, which has suffered due to poor drafts in recent years. It would help if the Broncos could trade down in the first round and grab another first-day pick. The bottom line is that patience is going to be needed since the overall talent level doesn't match up with the AFC's best anymore.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-06-2008, 09:14 PM
Yeah....I think we've all figured out this is the way to go at this point.

As much as I hate the Steelers, I have always liked their draft day approach...best player available, almost regardless of position. Now except for QB and TE, we CAN afford to draft using that philosophy (as long as DT is addressed at some point). I stated in a different thread the reasons we could draft any position other than QB and TE.

bmarsh15
03-06-2008, 09:15 PM
Good find here's to a good draft and a couple more good additions in free agency

SmilinAssasSin27
03-06-2008, 09:21 PM
Individually, these additions have been pretty boring. However, collectively I am starting to like what I see. Sometimes the whole is truly better than the sum of it's parts.

TXBRONC
03-06-2008, 09:22 PM
Yeah....I think we've all figured out this is the way to go at this point.

As much as I hate the Steelers, I have always liked their draft day approach...best player available, almost regardless of position. Now except for QB and TE, we CAN afford to draft using that philosophy (as long as DT is addressed at some point). I stated in a different thread the reasons we could draft any position other than QB and TE.


Do you remember which thread I would like to read what you had to say. :beer:

SmilinAssasSin27
03-06-2008, 09:49 PM
I'll try and find it for ya...

SmilinAssasSin27
03-06-2008, 09:52 PM
THAT is how many needs we have. And here is why (no particular order):

RB-Not a huge NEED, but c'mon after the dust settles on this board if we go RB, ya know you ALL would be drooling at the thought of Mendenhall or Stewart in our offense.

WR-We NEED a #2, no matter how some of you downplay it. I don't want it at #12, but can we really be THAT mad if we draft Malcolm Kelly or Limas Sweed? An argument can even be made for DeSean Jackson as a returnman as our STs have been awful.

OG-Not a position of need today, but we have 2 aging vets, 1 of which still has a headache. That Albert kid from Virginia would look REAL good if we kept him in Orange and Blue.

OT-No justification needed...and there are PLENTY of options.

DT-No justification needed. Even if we trade Foxxy and a future #3 or #4 to Bmore to get to the 8 spot (ahead of Cincy and NO), noone will be too upset when we land Dorsey or Ellis. BUT if it's not one of those 2, 12 is the wrong spot to reach at the others.

S-2 gaping holes and Kenny Phillips is uber-talented.

LB-Although I think the value is in round 2, I wouldn't be at all upset if Rivers or Connor were donning Denver unis next year.

DE-Moss's health is a question and Elvis is a 1 trick pony...although it's a damn nice trick. Crowder is soild vs the run, but our other options are old/hurt. A bigger DE like Merling or Harvey who could play DE on running downs and switch to DT on passing downs could be valuable to us given our deficiencies at DT.

CB-Yes...even CB. Bly is owed a LOT of money in 2009 (I think 7.7mil) and is not even close to worth all that. He may be gone. Foxxy is trade bait now and Paymah is a FA next year too. As strong as CB appears to be now, the story may change completetly in 2009.

I think it's gonna be really hard for Shanny to screw this up. I mean, he could always end up egtting someone who busts, but that risk lies in everyone.

SR
03-06-2008, 09:56 PM
I think our team can surprise some people next year. With Nalen and Hamilton coming back I think our offensive line will be fine. We're fine at WR, but could use some depth. Our RB situation is fine. Depending on what happens with Marcus Thomas, we're okay on the defensive line, but could stand to sign another big DT. Our linebackers will be fine. Our corners are solid. Safety is our big question mark and it wouldn't surprise me if we draft that safety Kenny (forgot last name) with our first round pick.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-06-2008, 10:08 PM
Hamilton can't be depended on...thus the look at Jake Scott. Scott, Nalen and Holland w/ a wide open competition for OT among Pears, Kuper, Harris and a rookie.

dogfish
03-06-2008, 10:42 PM
translation: with the utter failure of the '00-'04 draft classes, you are now a mediocre-at-best franchise that will most likely take years to rebuild-- IF the front office can duplicate the work they did in the '06 draft. . . pull up a chair, folks. . . :cheers:

TXBRONC
03-06-2008, 11:32 PM
THAT is how many needs we have. And here is why (no particular order):

RB-Not a huge NEED, but c'mon after the dust settles on this board if we go RB, ya know you ALL would be drooling at the thought of Mendenhall or Stewart in our offense.

WR-We NEED a #2, no matter how some of you downplay it. I don't want it at #12, but can we really be THAT mad if we draft Malcolm Kelly or Limas Sweed? An argument can even be made for DeSean Jackson as a returnman as our STs have been awful.

OG-Not a position of need today, but we have 2 aging vets, 1 of which still has a headache. That Albert kid from Virginia would look REAL good if we kept him in Orange and Blue.

OT-No justification needed...and there are PLENTY of options.

DT-No justification needed. Even if we trade Foxxy and a future #3 or #4 to Bmore to get to the 8 spot (ahead of Cincy and NO), noone will be too upset when we land Dorsey or Ellis. BUT if it's not one of those 2, 12 is the wrong spot to reach at the others.

S-2 gaping holes and Kenny Phillips is uber-talented.

LB-Although I think the value is in round 2, I wouldn't be at all upset if Rivers or Connor were donning Denver unis next year.

DE-Moss's health is a question and Elvis is a 1 trick pony...although it's a damn nice trick. Crowder is soild vs the run, but our other options are old/hurt. A bigger DE like Merling or Harvey who could play DE on running downs and switch to DT on passing downs could be valuable to us given our deficiencies at DT.

CB-Yes...even CB. Bly is owed a LOT of money in 2009 (I think 7.7mil) and is not even close to worth all that. He may be gone. Foxxy is trade bait now and Paymah is a FA next year too. As strong as CB appears to be now, the story may change completetly in 2009.

I think it's gonna be really hard for Shanny to screw this up. I mean, he could always end up egtting someone who busts, but that risk lies in everyone.

Well done SAS.

fcspikeit
03-06-2008, 11:40 PM
translation: with the utter failure of the '00-'04 draft classes, you are now a mediocre-at-best franchise that will most likely take years to rebuild-- IF the front office can duplicate the work they did in the '06 draft. . . pull up a chair, folks. . . :cheers:

I was thinking pretty much the same thing...It's kind of sad really, This will be the first time in a long time that we Broncos fans will go into the season not being a serious contender.

How long has it been since we went into the season figuring 10 - 6 would be a big achievement.. I know that all of last years big signings for the most part didn't pan out, so most of us welcome the change of building through the draft and 2nd tear FA, But IMO this article wasn't talking about how to build a good team for next year as much as just excepting the fact we're one of the bottom feeders in the NFL now.

No point in blowing money when you can't win anyways right? That is the impression I got anyways... Just except the fact you suck and will for a couple more years, so start looking forward to the 2010 season.. ::(:

One really has to wonder if Mikey the GM can even be successful building a team through the draft? Beings that is the way Pat wants to go, Mikey better show this year that he has what it takes to be a real GM..

Maybe actualy interviewing the draft prospects would have been a good start? :confused:

dogfish
03-06-2008, 11:43 PM
I was thinking pretty much the same thing...It's kind of sad really, This will be the first time in a long time that we Broncos fans will go into the season not being a serious contender.

How long has it been since we went into the season figuring 10 - 6 would be a big achievement.. I know that all of last years big signings for the most part didn't pan out, so most of us welcome the change of building through the draft and 2nd tear FA, But IMO this article wasn't talking about how to build a good team for next year as much as just excepting the fact we're one of the bottom feeders in the NFL now.

No point in blowing money when you can't win anyways right? That is the impression I got anyways... Just except the fact you suck and will for a couple more years, so start looking forward to the 2010 season.. ::(:

One really has to wonder if Mikey the GM can even be successful building a team through the draft? Beings that is the way Pat wants to go, Mikey better show this year that he has what it takes to be a real GM..

Maybe actualy interviewing the draft prospects would have been a good start? :confused:



pretty much. . . and yes, i'm also concerned about shanahan's ability to build a good team through the draft-- it's something he's never had to do before, and his record in the draft pretty much speaks for itself. . . :fear:

Watchthemiddle
03-06-2008, 11:45 PM
I like this new idea.

I think the Broncos are finally getting it.

I can't remember how many times during the playoffs that I heard about the Colts, Giants, and maybe another team and how many players were playing on the field that those teams drafted.

Astronomical amount.

I would sacrifice a year or two of getting our talent in place through the draft if it meant many GREAT years down the road. Problem is, is that we don't draft well...or atleast not as well as other teams do.

TXBRONC
03-06-2008, 11:47 PM
I was thinking pretty much the same thing...It's kind of sad really, This will be the first time in a long time that we Broncos fans will go into the season not being a serious contender.

How long has it been since we went into the season figuring 10 - 6 would be a big achievement.. I know that all of last years big signings for the most part didn't pan out, so most of us welcome the change of building through the draft and 2nd tear FA, But IMO this article wasn't talking about how to build a good team for next year as much as just excepting the fact we're one of the bottom feeders in the NFL now.

No point in blowing money when you can't win anyways right? That is the impression I got anyways... Just except the fact you suck and will for a couple more years, so start looking forward to the 2010 season.. ::(:

One really has to wonder if Mikey the GM can even be successful building a team through the draft? Beings that is the way Pat wants to go, Mikey better show this year that he has what it takes to be a real GM..

Maybe actualy interviewing the draft prospects would have been a good start? :confused:

I didn't get that out of the article that we are bottom feeders. What I was understanding it to say especially in the last paragraph is that we have young core we need to continue to build up on it with young talent via the draft.

broncohead
03-07-2008, 12:16 AM
I think that we started re-building the year we drafted Cutler. Cutler, Tony S., Marshall, Elvis, and Kuper (I think thats all). All these guys have the potential to start and be solid contributors. Last years draft wasn't bad either, so far.

broncosfanscott
03-07-2008, 12:40 AM
Nice article TX and like SAS says, I think we all have come to realize this. Every team goes through this every so often and now it's our turn. I'm just glad something is being done about it. High priced players doesn't always add up to a lot of wins. As far as the draft goes, unless there is a quality players available that we need, I would like to trade down to get more picks on the first day.

lex
03-07-2008, 12:42 AM
Al Wilson

Lonestar
03-07-2008, 01:05 AM
Let me chime in here I think everyone has wrapped their heads around that as a GM mikey has left alot to be desired that that now seems to include Pat Bowlen..


We have failed so badly in some of those drafts as to not even have decent ST players out of them..

2006 Seemed to turn thing around and while we are not quite yet bottom feeders we have a lot riding on a few young shoulders of those kids in 2006-07 drafts along with a few veterans .

If the OLINE can be fixed and get us back to old standards and by that I;m not talking about being able to run at will between the 20's but being productive inside the 5.

If we can pick up a couple three potential starters on this draft, by the time we get through the first half of the season we could catch fire with all the youth and maybe make a decent run..

I think we are looking more like 2009 myself but one never knows..

Thomas has a alot of raw talent same with Moss one stud OLT, one Stud DT in the draft and there is enough other talent here to do some serious damage with a couple of injuries in SAN and you never know which way the ball will bounce.

Remember folks most games are won and lost on the LOS..

fcspikeit
03-07-2008, 01:23 AM
I didn't get that out of the article that we are bottom feeders. What I was understanding it to say especially in the last paragraph is that we have young core we need to continue to build up on it with young talent via the draft.

So you suspect the article is intended to mean, "Facing the Hard Truth" "we have young core we need to continue to build up on it with young talent via the draft" :D

It's great your a glass half full kind of guy :salute:

To me this is about "Facing the Hard Truth" Your one of the worst teams in the NFL. Your not going to do much next year anyways so just look forward to the future and don't waist money on FA's who could help you win a couple more games "next" year, because we both know 2 or 3 more wins is only going to put you just out of the playoffs..

fcspikeit
03-07-2008, 02:12 AM
I like this new idea.

I think the Broncos are finally getting it.

I can't remember how many times during the playoffs that I heard about the Colts, Giants, and maybe another team and how many players were playing on the field that those teams drafted.

Astronomical amount.


This has nothing to do with a "new idea" Its not like us drafting players is a new idea. One could say not drafting shit players would be a new idea.

Isn't that really the problem? We have drafted a lot of players the last 13 years. The draft isn't a new idea!

Some times people make it sound like we're not going to get talent in FA, instead we're going to get talent in the draft, as if Mikey hasn't been trying all these years to get talent in the draft.

I get that we're not going after the top FA's on the board, how does that help Shanahan make better draft choices? Its not like he's been trading all our 1st day picks away all these years. What does not getting talent in FA have to do with that? Were we spending all our money on FA to where we couldn't pay the draft choices?

The reason we have always had to fill our holes in FA isn't because we didn't draft players, its because Shanahan is always picking bust's. If we had as good a GM as the normal NFL team some of our past draft picks would still be playing for us.

Here's what I'm saying, getting players in FA hasn't been the problem! It was the solution for bad drafting. As in, we can't pick players for crap so we will pick up good players someone else drafted. Pat figuring out free agency isn't the solution to the problem. Doesn't solve the problem...

The only solution is, Mikey has to do a better job of picking players or we better get someone who can. If he continues to suck at drafting players and we lose the 5 or 6 wins we have been getting from free agents, we will be a 4 - 12 team.

Anyways,, drafting players isn't a "new idea". However, Drafting "good" players would be..




I would sacrifice a year or two of getting our talent in place through the draft if it meant many GREAT years down the road.

I would too but we both know it's not that simple. First we have to actualy get talent through the draft... Maybe Mikey hasn't thought about that? Maybe beings he has always picked up FA's to fill the hole's, he took more risk's, figuring we didn't really need the players to begin with? maybe now he will actualy try to get good players?





Problem is, is that we don't draft well...or atleast not as well as other teams do.


Your right! :salute:

With this new approach, we are now putting all our egg's in one basket. We all better hope Mikey has figured out how to draft, or we will suck, big time!

Imagine how bad we would be if we were forced to play with only the players Shanahan has drafted? :shocked:

TXBRONC
03-07-2008, 08:27 AM
So you suspect the article is intended to mean, "Facing the Hard Truth" "we have young core we need to continue to build up on it with young talent via the draft" :D

It's great your a glass half full kind of guy :salute:

To me this is about "Facing the Hard Truth" Your one of the worst teams in the NFL. Your not going to do much next year anyways so just look forward to the future and don't waist money on FA's who could help you win a couple more games "next" year, because we both know 2 or 3 more wins is only going to put you just out of the playoffs..

I was of the understanding the hard truth was that they need to get away from going after high priced free agents because its not helping to be what right now looks like young talented core. They are not playoff contenders at this point but I think they more talented than 6-10.

But then you come along and spit in my half full glass. Curse you FC curse you.:laugh: Just kidding

MHCBill
03-07-2008, 08:55 AM
I think the '05 class was the start. At least we still have some solid NFL contributors from that class.

Coupled with '06 and '07 classes we have started to put together a nice core of talented, youthful players.

With such a high pick in round one and two this year we need to continue the recent trend. We can not afford a "bust" draft this year. It doesn't mean we need to come away with 4 or 5 studs, but we need a stud or two and a couple other solid contributors.

Some folks on the board don't believe it or don't want to accept it, but we will not be "competing" this year. I'm of the opinion that it's short-sighted as well as naive to think we can compete for the Super Bowl EVERY year. We've been trying very hard for the Super Bowl basically the last five years. We never got there, but due to poor drafts up till '05 and many questionable free agent acquisitions we find ourselves on the downside of the cycle.

On the good side, we are quickly coming out of the downside of the cycle and with another solid draft this year, coupled with intelligent FA acquisitions I feel that we can again truly compete next year.

So, sit back and enjoy this season of growth. We are almost done retooling this team. We can't afford a set back with this year's draft and I think the front office is doing a nice job this off-season not mortgaging the future with bad contracts. We are putting ourselves in better position to start resigning our core players starting in 2009.

We are a spoiled bunch of fans aren't we? We have a couple down years and we feel like the World's ended. More than half of this league would die for what we've done and where we aim to be year after year. So what, we took a step back for a year or two... we're on our way back.

atwater27
03-07-2008, 11:43 AM
Yeah....I think we've all figured out this is the way to go at this point.

As much as I hate the Steelers, I have always liked their draft day approach...best player available, almost regardless of position. Now except for QB and TE, we CAN afford to draft using that philosophy (as long as DT is addressed at some point). I stated in a different thread the reasons we could draft any position other than QB and TE.

I agree. However, I would add cornerback to your list of non-draftables.

Lonestar
03-07-2008, 12:29 PM
I agree. However, I would add cornerback to your list of non-draftables.


I think mikey will always look CB, LB and RB in the draft in the lower rounds..

Not that he should take one but he mentioned one time you can never have to many of them..

atwater27
03-07-2008, 12:35 PM
I don't know... Having 2 awesome starters and 2 reserves that could start on some teams should be enough.

fcspikeit
03-07-2008, 02:00 PM
I don't know... Having 2 awesome starters and 2 reserves that could start on some teams should be enough.


I agree with you but as Jr said, Mikey always seems to look in the late rounds for CB's and RB's.. It probably has something to do with his BPA approach...

Lonestar
03-07-2008, 02:03 PM
I don't know... Having 2 awesome starters and 2 reserves that could start on some teams should be enough.


I agree with you but as Jr said, Mikey always seems to look in the late rounds for CB's and RB's.. It probably has something to do with his BPA approach...


I do not think we are going to have two reserves after this off season and if we do they are UFA next year.. That is why I believe mikey will take another one at least as a draft choice or a FA during the off season..

fcspikeit
03-07-2008, 02:24 PM
I was of the understanding the hard truth was that they need to get away from going after high priced free agents because its not helping to be what right now looks like young talented core. They are not playoff contenders at this point but I think they more talented than 6-10.

But then you come along and spit in half full glass. Curse you FC curse you.:laugh: Just kidding

As far as I'm concerned, every player you acquire should add to your wins next year. Otherwise whats the point in even signing them?

If we are a 9 - 7 team then by getting the top guys in FA, would have made us a 11 - 5, 12 - 4 team. If that is the case we should be getting those guys.. With 11 or 12 wins you have a chance to compete and maybe even win it all. That in itself is justification enough to believe you are only one or two players away...


But then you come along and spit in half full glass. Curse you FC curse you.:laugh: Just kidding

you know what they say, misery loves company ::D:

dogfish
03-07-2008, 05:08 PM
I don't know... Having 2 awesome starters and 2 reserves that could start on some teams should be enough.

i would agree, except we've made no move to sign either of those reserves long term-- either or both could be gone next year. . . i really wish we would have spent some of our cap space to lock at least one of them into a contract extension rather than bringing in guys like keary colbert. . . you're right that CB isn't a hole right now, and there's no reason to let it become one. . . if those guys have good seasons the price will just go up, and it will be harder and more expensive to keep them around. . . i wish they'd get it taken care of. . .

SmilinAssasSin27
03-07-2008, 05:31 PM
I agree. However, I would add cornerback to your list of non-draftables.

But look at the reasoning and think beyond 2008. Bly is gonna be owed WAY more than he is worth...above 7.5mil. Our other 2 CBs not named Champ are both currenty RFAs. CB IS a need.

silkamilkamonico
03-07-2008, 05:36 PM
CB depth is a need.

Bly signed a 5 year contract last year. Unless Denver wants more dead money lingering on the cap for the next 4 years, they shouldn't think about doing anything with them for the next couple years.

CB depth is need, but so is virtually every unit of positions on both sides of the ball with the exception of QB and TE.

HammeredOut
03-07-2008, 06:45 PM
pretty much. . . and yes, i'm also concerned about shanahan's ability to build a good team through the draft-- it's something he's never had to do before, and his record in the draft pretty much speaks for itself. . . :fear:

The Broncos have been one of the most successful teams in the NFL for drafting.

2007
Rnd Name College Note
1 Jarvis Moss Florida
2 Crowder Tim Texas
3 Harris Ryan Notre Dame
4 Thomas Marcus Florida

2006
Rnd Name College Note
1 Jay Cutler Vanderbilt
2 Tony Scheffler Western Michigan
4 Brandon Marshall Central Florida
4 Elvis Dumervil Louisville
4 Domenik Hixon Akron
5 Chris Kuper North Dakota
6 Greg Eslinger Minnesota

2005
Rnd Name College Note
2 Darrent Williams Oklahoma State
3 Karl Paymah Washington State
3 Domonique Foxworth Maryland
3 Maurice Clarett Ohio State
6 Chris Myers Miami (FL)
7 Paul Ernster Northern Arizona

2004
Rnd Name College Note
1 D.J. Williams Miami (FL)
2 Tatum Bell Oklahoma State
2 Darius Watts Marshall
3 Jeremy LeSueur Michigan
5 Jeff Shoate San Diego State
6 Triandos Luke Alabama
6 Josh Sewell Nebraska
7 Matt Mauck Louisiana State
7 Brandon Miree Pittsburgh
7 Bradlee Van Pelt Colorado State

2003
Rnd Name College Note
1 George Foster Georgia
2 Terry Pierce Kansas State
4 Quentin Griffin Oklahoma
4 Nicholas Eason Clemson
4 Bryant McNeal Clemson
5 Ben Claxton Mississippi
5 Adrian Madise Texas Christian
6 Aaron Hunt Texas Tech
7 Clint Mitchell Florida
7 Ahmaad Galloway Alabama

2002
Rnd Name College Note
1 Ashley Lelie Hawaii
2 Clinton Portis Miami (FL)
3 Dorsett Davis Mississippi State
4 Sam Brandon UNLV
5 Herb Haygood Michigan State
6 Jeb Putzier Boise State
7 Chris Young Georgia Tech
7 Monsanto Pope Virginia

2001
Rnd Name College Note
1 Willie Middlebrooks Minnesota
2 Paul Toviessi Marshall
3 Reggie Hayward Iowa State
4 Ben Hamilton Minnesota
4 Nick Harris California
6 Kevin Kasper Iowa

2000
Rnd Name College Note
1 Deltha O'Neal California
2 Ian Gold Michigan
2 Kenoy Kennedy Arkansas
3 Chris Cole Texas A&M
4 Jerry Johnson Florida State
4 Cooper Carlisle Florida
5 Muneer Moore Richmond
6 Mike Anderson Utah
7 Jarious Jackson Notre Dame
7 Leroy Fields Jackson State

1999
Rnd Name College Note
1 Al Wilson Tennessee
2 Montae Reagor Texas Tech
2 Lennie Friedman Duke
3 Chris Watson Eastern Illinois
3 Travis McGriff Florida
4 Olandis Gary Georgia
5 David Bowens Western Illinois
5 Darwin Brown Texas Tech
6 Desmond Clark Wake Forest
6 Chad Plummer Cincinnati
7 Billy Miller USC
7 Justin Swift Kansas State

1998
Rnd Name College Note
1 Marcus Nash Tennessee
2 Eric Brown Mississippi State
3 Brian Griese Michigan
4 Curtis Alexander Alabama
5 Chris Howard Michigan
7 Trey Teague Tennessee
7 Nate Wayne Mississippi

1997
Rnd Name College Note
1 Trevor Pryce Clemson
3 Dan Neil Texas
4 Cory Gilliard Ball State

1996
Rnd Name College Note
1 John Mobley Kutztown (PA)
2 Tory James Louisiana State
3 Detron Smith Texas A&M
3 Mark Campbell Florida
4 Jeff Lewis Northern Arizona
4 Darius Johnson Oklahoma
5 Patrick Jeffers Virginia
6 Tony Veland Nebraska
7 Leslie Ratliffe Tennessee
7 Chris Banks Kansas
7 L.T. Levine Kansas
7 Brian Gragert Wyoming

1995
Rnd Name College Note
4 Jamie Brown Florida A&M
4 Ken Brown Virginia Tech
5 Phil Yeboah-Kodie Penn State
6 Fritz Fequeire Iowa
6 Terrell Davis Georgia
7 Steve Russ Air Force
7 Byron Chamberlain Wayne State (NE)

1994
Rnd Name College Note
2 Allen Aldridge Houston
4 Randy Fuller Tennessee State
7 Keith Burns Oklahoma State
7 Butler By'not'e Ohio State
7 Tom Nalen Boston College

1993
Rnd Name College Note
1 Dan Williams Toledo
2 Glyn Milburn Stanford
3 Rondell Jones North Carolina
3 Jason Elam Hawaii
4 Jeff Robinson Idaho
5 Kevin Williams UCLA
6 Melvin Bonner Baylor
7 Clarence Williams Washington State
7 Antonius Kimbrough Jackson State
8 Brian Stablein Ohio State

1992
Rnd Name College Note
1 Tommy Maddox UCLA
2 Shane Dronett Texas
4 Chuck Johnson Texas
5 Frank Robinson Boise State
7 Ron Geater Iowa
7 Jim Johnson Michigan State
7 Jon Bostick Nebraska
8 Dietrich Lockridge Jackson State
9 Muhammad Oliver Oregon
10 Bob Meeks Auburn
11 Cedric Tillman Alcorn State
12 John Granby Virginia Tech

1991
Rnd Name College Note
1 Mike Croel Nebraska
2 Reggie Johnson Florida State
3 Keith Traylor Central State (OK)
4 Derek Russell Arkansas
5 Greg Lewis Washington
6 Nick Subis San Diego State
8 Kenny Walker Nebraska
9 Don Gibson USC
10 Curtis Mayfield Oklahoma State
11 Shawn Moore Virginia

1990
Rnd Name College Note
2 Alton Montgomery Houston
4 Jeroy Robinson Texas A&M
5 Jeff Davidson Ohio State
5 Le-Lo Lang Washington
6 Ronne Haliburton Louisiana State
7 Shannon Sharpe Savannah State
8 Brad Leggett USC
9 Todd Ellis South Carolina
10 James Szymanski Michigan State
10 Anthony Thompson East Carolina

1989
Rnd Name College Note
1 Bobby Humphrey Alabama suplapmental
1 Steve Atwater Arkansas
2 Doug Widell Boston College
2 Warren Powers Maryland
3 Darrell Hamilton North Carolina
4 Richad McCullough Clemson

dogfish
03-07-2008, 06:54 PM
The Broncos have been one of the most successful teams in the NFL for drafting.

2007
Rnd Name College Note
1 Jarvis Moss Florida
2 Crowder Tim Texas
3 Harris Ryan Notre Dame
4 Thomas Marcus Florida

2006
Rnd Name College Note
1 Jay Cutler Vanderbilt
2 Tony Scheffler Western Michigan
4 Brandon Marshall Central Florida
4 Elvis Dumervil Louisville
4 Domenik Hixon Akron
5 Chris Kuper North Dakota
6 Greg Eslinger Minnesota

2005
Rnd Name College Note
2 Darrent Williams Oklahoma State
3 Karl Paymah Washington State
3 Domonique Foxworth Maryland
3 Maurice Clarett Ohio State
6 Chris Myers Miami (FL)
7 Paul Ernster Northern Arizona

2004
Rnd Name College Note
1 D.J. Williams Miami (FL)
2 Tatum Bell Oklahoma State
2 Darius Watts Marshall
3 Jeremy LeSueur Michigan
5 Jeff Shoate San Diego State
6 Triandos Luke Alabama
6 Josh Sewell Nebraska
7 Matt Mauck Louisiana State
7 Brandon Miree Pittsburgh
7 Bradlee Van Pelt Colorado State

2003
Rnd Name College Note
1 George Foster Georgia
2 Terry Pierce Kansas State
4 Quentin Griffin Oklahoma
4 Nicholas Eason Clemson
4 Bryant McNeal Clemson
5 Ben Claxton Mississippi
5 Adrian Madise Texas Christian
6 Aaron Hunt Texas Tech
7 Clint Mitchell Florida
7 Ahmaad Galloway Alabama

2002
Rnd Name College Note
1 Ashley Lelie Hawaii
2 Clinton Portis Miami (FL)
3 Dorsett Davis Mississippi State
4 Sam Brandon UNLV
5 Herb Haygood Michigan State
6 Jeb Putzier Boise State
7 Chris Young Georgia Tech
7 Monsanto Pope Virginia

2001
Rnd Name College Note
1 Willie Middlebrooks Minnesota
2 Paul Toviessi Marshall
3 Reggie Hayward Iowa State
4 Ben Hamilton Minnesota
4 Nick Harris California
6 Kevin Kasper Iowa

2000
Rnd Name College Note
1 Deltha O'Neal California
2 Ian Gold Michigan
2 Kenoy Kennedy Arkansas
3 Chris Cole Texas A&M
4 Jerry Johnson Florida State
4 Cooper Carlisle Florida
5 Muneer Moore Richmond
6 Mike Anderson Utah
7 Jarious Jackson Notre Dame
7 Leroy Fields Jackson State




what??



:lol: :pound:


we have a grand total of ONE player from the '00-'04 drafts still on the team! two, if hamilton makes the squad this year. . . those should be the players making up the heart of our team right now, and the vast majority of them aren't even playing football any more. . . those drafts were complete and utter disasters, there's no other word for it. . .

and the '04 draft produced only one quality starter (RIP), with a couple of decent backups. . . the jury is still very much out on the '07 class, leaving '06 as the ONLY truly good draft we've had this century. . . pro football weekly recently ranked us dead-last of all 32 teams for drafting over the past decade. . . tell me when was the last time denver drafted a pro bowler, let alone an all pro. . .

no, i'm sorry-- the complete and total failure of multiple draft classes is why denvre has had to lean almost exclusively on free agency and trades to build our team, and is the reason why we are now no longer a competitive franchise. . . .

HammeredOut
03-07-2008, 07:26 PM
what??



:lol: :pound:


we have a grand total of ONE player from the '00-'04 drafts still on the team! two, if hamilton makes the squad this year. . . those should be the players making up the heart of our team right now, and the vast majority of them aren't even playing football any more. . . those drafts were complete and utter disasters, there's no other word for it. . .

and the '04 draft produced only one quality starter (RIP), with a couple of decent backups. . . the jury is still very much out on the '07 class, leaving '06 as the ONLY truly good draft we've had this century. . . pro football weekly recently ranked us dead-last of all 32 teams for drafting over the past decade. . . tell me when was the last time denver drafted a pro bowler, let alone an all pro. . .

no, i'm sorry-- the complete and total failure of multiple draft classes is why denvre has had to lean almost exclusively on free agency and trades to build our team, and is the reason why we are now no longer a competitive franchise. . . .

1 Jay Cutler Vanderbilt
2 Tony Scheffler Western Michigan
4 Brandon Marshall Central Florida
4 Elvis Dumervil Louisville
4 Domenik Hixon Akron
3 Domonique Foxworth Maryland
1 D.J. Williams Miami (FL)
2 Tatum Bell Oklahoma State
1 George Foster Georgia
1 Ashley Lelie Hawaii
2 Clinton Portis Miami (FL)
6 Jeb Putzier Boise State
4 Ben Hamilton Minnesota
1 Deltha O'Neal California
2 Ian Gold Michigan
2 Kenoy Kennedy Arkansas
4 Cooper Carlisle Florida
6 Mike Anderson Utah

I could carry on and give you there stats while they played for the Broncos. Id say this is one of the most successful teams at drafting by far. we could compare other teams and Id be able to prove it.

If you know much about the NFL, players rarely stay with one team for 8 years like you are indicating. These players are not John Elway. Look at all the trades, salary cap issues, bonuses, and other factors outside of football that cause a player to either be cut or traded for financial reasons. I think you have not made any point about how successful this team has not been at drafting because these players that the Broncos do draft get recycled in a trade or released. Find me one player that usually stays with one team for 8 seasons in the NFL that issnt drafted in the top 5. Thats right you won't find to many of them.

To answer your question about drafting and how successful they are at it. How many times has this team missed the playoffs the last 25 years.

Besides you answered your own question. The average NFL career lasts just 4 seasons.

fcspikeit
03-07-2008, 07:44 PM
1 Jay Cutler Vanderbilt
2 Tony Scheffler Western Michigan
4 Brandon Marshall Central Florida
4 Elvis Dumervil Louisville
4 Domenik Hixon Akron
3 Domonique Foxworth Maryland
1 D.J. Williams Miami (FL)
2 Tatum Bell Oklahoma State
1 George Foster Georgia
1 Ashley Lelie Hawaii
2 Clinton Portis Miami (FL)
6 Jeb Putzier Boise State
4 Ben Hamilton Minnesota
1 Deltha O'Neal California
2 Ian Gold Michigan
2 Kenoy Kennedy Arkansas
4 Cooper Carlisle Florida
6 Mike Anderson Utah

I could carry on and give you there stats while they played for the Broncos. Id say this is one of the most successful teams at drafting by far. we could compare other teams and Id be able to prove it.

If you know much about the NFL, players rarely stay with one team for 8 years like you are indicating. These players are not John Elway. Look at all the trades, salary cap issues, bonuses, and other factors outside of football that cause a player to either be cut or traded for financial reasons. I think you have not made any point about how successful this team has not been at drafting because these players that the Broncos do draft get recycled in a trade or released. Find me one player that usually stays with one team for 8 seasons in the NFL that issnt drafted in the top 5. Thats right you won't find to many of them.

To answer your question about drafting and how successful they are at it. How many times has this team missed the playoffs the last 25 years.

Besides you answered your own question. The average NFL career lasts just 4 seasons.

WoW! Just Wow!! :jaw: :lol: :rofl:

dogfish
03-07-2008, 07:49 PM
1 Jay Cutler Vanderbilt
2 Tony Scheffler Western Michigan
4 Brandon Marshall Central Florida
4 Elvis Dumervil Louisville
4 Domenik Hixon Akron
3 Domonique Foxworth Maryland
1 D.J. Williams Miami (FL)
2 Tatum Bell Oklahoma State
1 George Foster Georgia
1 Ashley Lelie Hawaii
2 Clinton Portis Miami (FL)
6 Jeb Putzier Boise State
4 Ben Hamilton Minnesota
1 Deltha O'Neal California
2 Ian Gold Michigan
2 Kenoy Kennedy Arkansas
4 Cooper Carlisle Florida
6 Mike Anderson Utah

I could carry on and give you there stats while they played for the Broncos. Id say this is one of the most successful teams at drafting by far. we could compare other teams and Id be able to prove it.

If you know much about the NFL, players rarely stay with one team for 8 years like you are indicating. These players are not John Elway. Look at all the trades, salary cap issues, bonuses, and other factors outside of football that cause a player to either be cut or traded for financial reasons. I think you have not made any point about how successful this team has not been at drafting because these players that the Broncos do draft get recycled in a trade or released. Find me one player that usually stays with one team for 8 seasons in the NFL that issnt drafted in the top 5. Thats right you won't find to many of them.

To answer your question about drafting and how successful they are at it. How many times has this team missed the playoffs the last 25 years.

Besides you answered your own question. The average NFL career lasts just 4 seasons.

you have hixon on your list there, you're really reaching-- the guy played like two games for us! :lol:


and if you consider ashley lilly, george foster and tatum bell examples of succsseful drafting, then your standards are obviously not very high. . . and those were the GOOD picks from those classes. . .


ah well, there's no way i'm going to waste my time arguing this-- most of our draftees besides the '06 class have been abject failures, the record speaks for itself-- if they weren't they'd still be here, or starring somewhere else. . .

dogfish
03-07-2008, 07:50 PM
WoW! Just Wow!! :jaw: :lol: :rofl:


i'm gonna bet that this guy is either a relative or a close friend of shanahan-- there's just no other explanation. . . .

HammeredOut
03-07-2008, 08:04 PM
you have hixon on your list there, you're really reaching-- the guy played like two games for us! :lol:


and if you consider ashley lilly, george foster and tatum bell examples of succsseful drafting, then your standards are obviously not very high. . . and those were the GOOD picks from those classes. . .


ah well, there's no way i'm going to waste my time arguing this-- most of our draftees besides the '06 class have been abject failures, the record speaks for itself-- if they weren't they'd still be here, or starring somewhere else. . .

Hixon was a cut and paste error he is not suppose to be up there.

Asley Lillie had 1084 yards with a 20.4 yard average per catch. His production was about 800 yards a year if you average out his last three seasons, and his last season was a throwback as a bronco.

Tatem Bell had basically back to back 1000 yard seasons with the Broncos with 921, and 1025 before he had some problems and the Broncos got rid of him.

All of those players i listed have been Starters and worked well in the Bronco system. If you say that back to back 1000 yard seasons with your back-up running back, along with player that will average about 800 yards a season as a bronco is bad. Then i think the entire Bronco nation is awe struck.

Besides, not many rookies will come in and perform from year one. Usually takes the second year before they catch on.

You keep switching back and forth between 00-04 to 06. Im not sure where you are going with this. But to further my point the Broncos traded off there first rounder that one year and took a few chances, it may have been one of the bad drafts of this decade, but it certainly didnt impact on how well this club has drafted over the last few decades.

silkamilkamonico
03-07-2008, 08:23 PM
The Broncos have been one of the most successful teams in the NFL for drafting.


Actually, the Broncos have been one of the worst drafting teams in the NFL since Mike Shanahan took over.

The proof is in the picks, or lack of picks.

There are literally some NFL teams that have gotten more impact players out of one draft than the Broncos have from the 2001 through the 2004 drafts combined.

Even the 2005 and the 2006 drafts, which looked incredibly strong at one time, are losing draft impact value.

In the 2005 draft, we have garnered 1 impact starter in Williams, 1 default starter in Meyers, and 2 valuable backups that we will likely lose to free agency, along with Meyers.

The 2006 draft which looked to be loaded from top to bottom for Denver's picks, is still very strong, and is the only draft that can be looked at as an impact positive.

1 possibly 2 impact drafts out of 12 in Shanahan's tenure? Yea, Denver's arguably the worst drafting team in the NFL since Shanahan has taken over.

HammeredOut
03-07-2008, 08:30 PM
Actually, the Broncos have been one of the worst drafting teams in the NFL since Mike Shanahan took over.

The proof is in the picks, or lack of picks.

There are literally some NFL teams that have gotten more impact players out of one draft than the Broncos have from the 2001 through the 2004 drafts combined.

Even the 2005 and the 2006 drafts, which looked incredibly strong at one time, are losing draft impact value.

In the 2005 draft, we have garnered 1 impact starter in Williams, 1 default starter in Meyers, and 2 valuable backups that we will likely lose to free agency, along with Meyers.

The 2006 draft which looked to be loaded from top to bottom for Denver's picks, is still very strong, and is the only draft that can be looked at as an impact positive.

1 possibly 2 impact drafts out of 12 in Shanahan's tenure? Yea, Denver's arguably the worst drafting team in the NFL since Shanahan has taken over.

2 Conference Championships
2 Superbowl Wins
3 Division Championships
2 Overall Championships

The last 12 years sounds pretty bad, I think you are right. This team has had record of 130-78 record since he has been here. They should have what 200-30 record over the last 12 years since Shanahan has been here.

Is this the same person on three different profiles??

silkamilkamonico
03-07-2008, 08:46 PM
2 Conference Championships
2 Superbowl Wins
3 Division Championships
2 Overall Championships


The last 12 years sounds pretty bad, I think you are right. This team has had record of 130-78 record since he has been here. They should have what 200-30 record over the last 12 years since Shanahan has been here.

IMHO, SHanahan's tenure has been, bar none, the worst stretch of drafting within the organization. But it has also been the most successful. It's successful because Shanahan is a great X's and O's coach(the best in the game according to many NFL analysts), and key trades, and some free agency.

The only problem with free agent signings, is you overpay for them, risk strapping your cap if they don't work out, and then in Denver's case where there's been a stretch of a lot of failed signings, strap your cap with dead money, and be in a position where you cannot only sign many free agents, but you don't have your previous drafts picks from the last 5-7 years making up your roster.

It's why the organization is in the state that it's in.




Is this the same person on three different profiles??

What same person? Shanahan? What?

Lonestar
03-07-2008, 08:47 PM
Actually, the Broncos have been one of the worst drafting teams in the NFL since Mike Shanahan took over.

The proof is in the picks, or lack of picks.

There are literally some NFL teams that have gotten more impact players out of one draft than the Broncos have from the 2001 through the 2004 drafts combined.

Even the 2005 and the 2006 drafts, which looked incredibly strong at one time, are losing draft impact value.

In the 2005 draft, we have garnered 1 impact starter in Williams, 1 default starter in Meyers, and 2 valuable backups that we will likely lose to free agency, along with Meyers.

The 2006 draft which looked to be loaded from top to bottom for Denver's picks, is still very strong, and is the only draft that can be looked at as an impact positive.

1 possibly 2 impact drafts out of 12 in Shanahan's tenure? Yea, Denver's arguably the worst drafting team in the NFL since Shanahan has taken over.



I totally agree with you here the number of impact players outside of LB and low round OLINE guys has sucked.

Have here been a couple of hits YEP but playing here for a year or tow and moving on IS NOT considered building via the draft and that is what the quality teams do..

Look at SAN NYG and NE for example and see how many of their starters from last year were draft choice and look at the list mikey has DAFTED since 1995 up through 2004 and it is almost laughable.. Take the first day LB's and the low round OLINE and RBBC we have had it is a total joke.

ONE DE price who got fat and lazy in no time, worried more about his record label than playing football.
ONE RB poorti$$$ that wanted nothing to do in hicksville DEN.
ONE WR ashley that was only good for one year 2004 WHEN EVERY WR was all world with the ROE BS.
ONE DB delta that was such a head case he cost us more in points than he produced.. ONE great play and then burnt the next..

Sorry folks that is mickeys legacy, because we all know that mikey had nothing to do with last years draft other that give the final OK, and the 2006 draft I really believe that Dinger was the prime mover for that offensive gluttony.

Time for Pat to hire a real GM..

Fan in Exile
03-07-2008, 08:51 PM
No sadly it's not three different people. What you have to understand is that people who are by nature negative do not assign any value to positive news. They may view themselves as "realistic" but it's just not true. These people are unable to see any good, they can't have a balanced outlook.

It really isn't worth arguing with them. The fact that they have to go back to 04 should be a tip off to them that they don't have to worry so much but really it isn't.

If you're curious Dr. Segerstrom has done a lot of research on this I'm sure if you google her name you should be able to find some.

Lonestar
03-07-2008, 08:54 PM
2 Conference Championships
2 Superbowl Wins
3 Division Championships
2 Overall Championships

The last 12 years sounds pretty bad, I think you are right. This team has had record of 130-78 record since he has been here. They should have what 200-30 record over the last 12 years since Shanahan has been here.

Is this the same person on three different profiles??

HE has been on the downside since John left..

He was lucky to have the inside track on FAgency those first couple of years while he was here, but then everyone else started beating him to the better players..

HE has screwed the pooch on lousy FA's bringing in clowns year after year. Gardener, carter, rice, Kennedy and Adams to name a few, total losers..

Many of those great years also can also be attributed to a weak division/conference..

Sorry mikey is a great coach who has worked miracles with the talent levels he has brought in here..

silkamilkamonico
03-07-2008, 08:54 PM
Look at SAN NYG and NE for example and see how many of their starters from last year were draft choice and look at the list mikey has DAFTED since 1995 up through 2004 and it is almost laughable..

Jacksonville is the epitome of this argument.

They have been their team from almost entirely of draft picks with very few free agent signings. They have very good scouting, and have drafted extraordinarily well enough to make the a contender.

The result?

Jacksonville is filled with depth, and virtually every single position, with some impact players, a plethora of solid contributors, and most importantly, all have reasonable to minimal contracts because their rookie contracts have either been extended, or players still on their rookie contracts.

They rarely overspend for any free agents.

Now, they not only have a rock solid team all the way across the board, but they also have the mone3y in free agency to make what they feel are key moves to put them over the top, and that's what they've done this year.

I'm not saying Jacksonville is going to be one of the best teams, but looking at their roster, that organization is built with a stable group of players that they've drafted that will be there for a stretch period of time.

I envy Jacksonville's upper management.

Nature Boy
03-07-2008, 09:30 PM
Jacksonville is the epitome of this argument.

They have been their team from almost entirely of draft picks with very few free agent signings. They have very good scouting, and have drafted extraordinarily well enough to make the a contender.

The result?

Jacksonville is filled with depth, and virtually every single position, with some impact players, a plethora of solid contributors, and most importantly, all have reasonable to minimal contracts because their rookie contracts have either been extended, or players still on their rookie contracts.

They rarely overspend for any free agents.

Now, they not only have a rock solid team all the way across the board, but they also have the mone3y in free agency to make what they feel are key moves to put them over the top, and that's what they've done this year.

I'm not saying Jacksonville is going to be one of the best teams, but looking at their roster, that organization is built with a stable group of players that they've drafted that will be there for a stretch period of time.

I envy Jacksonville's upper management.


What do you know. Arn't you the guy who was saying Mario Williams wasn't worth his hype getting drafted #1 overall?


I heard that same argument for Mario Williams.

Williams was also a better prospect that Long is in just about every measurable out there.

frauschieze
03-07-2008, 10:24 PM
What do you know. Arn't you the guy who was saying Mario Williams wasn't worth him hype getting drafted #1 overall?

:pound: You should be a stand up comic.

silkamilkamonico
03-08-2008, 03:42 AM
What do you know. Arn't you the guy who was saying Mario Williams wasn't worth him hype getting drafted #1 overall?

No.

I said based on your logic of calling Jarvis Moss a bust because he didn't "break out" in his 6 games of action, the same argument could be said about Mario Williams in his first season as the #1 draft pick.

And then he goes and lights it up in his second season.

You're the one calling Jarvis Moss a "bust" because he didn't break out in his first 6 games played, when the fact is, less than 10% of DE's actually do break out in their first year.

There goes that argument.

Nature Boy
03-08-2008, 04:08 AM
The difference with Jarvis Moss and Mario Williams is, Mario Williams showed promise. Although Mario didn't get huge sack totals and was not praised all over ESPN, (In fact he was laughed at and Kubiack mocked at for his selection as that was all you remembered, ESPN verbage) Mario Williams was good enough to hold down the starting job, played all 16 games, record 4.5 sacks and batted 3 passes down.

Jarvis Moss being the 17th overall pick played 6 games, started 1 and recorded a measly single sack. What a bad selection. I don't know about you guys but if I were Bowlen or any team owner, I'd expect all my 1st rounders to be show up considering the doe dished out for them.

There went your argument, you can't compare Jarvis to Mario Williams. The 2 are like night and day on their rookie year.

I hope Jarvis Moss proves me wrong this season and becomes like Javon Kearse of his yesteryears or Julius Peppers, but I highly doubt it. He showed zero promise last season.

Scarface
03-08-2008, 09:45 AM
WR-We NEED a #2, no matter how some of you downplay it. I don't want it at #12, but can we really be THAT mad if we draft Malcolm Kelly or Limas Sweed? An argument can even be made for DeSean Jackson as a returnman as our STs have been awful.



We'd be passing over guys who are better tackles than those guys are WRs. I'd rather roll the dice that someone like Doucet is there in rd 2. I'd be all for Kelly, Sweed, Devin Thomas, or Doucet if we trade down. But at 12 I'd pick up a trash can and throw it like the dude from the Snickers commercial.

TXBRONC
03-08-2008, 09:59 AM
The difference with Jarvis Moss and Mario Williams is, Mario Williams showed promise. Although Mario didn't get huge sack totals and was not praised all over ESPN, (In fact he was laughed at and Kubiack mocked at for his selection as that was all you remembered, ESPN verbage) Mario Williams was good enough to hold down the starting job, played all 16 games, record 4.5 sacks and batted 3 passes down.

Jarvis Moss being the 17th overall pick played 6 games, started 1 and recorded a measly single sack. What a bad selection. I don't know about you guys but if I were Bowlen or any team owner, I'd expect all my 1st rounders to be show up considering the doe dished out for them.

There went your argument, you can't compare Jarvis to Mario Williams. The 2 are like night and day on their rookie year.

I hope Jarvis Moss proves me wrong this season and becomes like Javon Kearse of his yesteryear or Julius Peppers, but I highly doubt it. He showed zero promise last season.


Honestly you don't seem to have much understanding of what is going with Moss.

First of all from day that Moss was selected he was not to expected to start immediately. The intent was that he was going to be situational pass rusher. So he was expected to put up big numbers. His job was come in and get pressure on the quarterback. He was starting to do that with some consistency before he got hurt.

Second its incredibly disingenuous to try and compare Moss' rookie season to that of Mario Williams. Mario was expect to start from day one which by the way he did. He also played his entire rookie season and had a chance to improve but overall his rookie season was nothing to eye catching. Moss was injured so how was he going have a chance to improve if he's injured.

You say he showed zero promise I say you more than likely didn't watch any of the games because in the six games he did play he showed a lot promise. Unfortunately for him and the Broncos his season was cut short by injury.

silkamilkamonico
03-08-2008, 12:33 PM
Jarvis Moss being the 17th overall pick played 6 games, started 1 and recorded a measly single sack. What a bad selection. I don't know about you guys but if I were Bowlen or any team owner, I'd expect all my 1st rounders to be show up considering the doe dished out for them.

There went your argument, you can't compare Jarvis to Mario Williams. The 2 are like night and day on their rookie year.

I hope Jarvis Moss proves me wrong this season and becomes like Javon Kearse of his yesteryears or Julius Peppers, but I highly doubt it. He showed zero promise last season.

Mario Williams, after a stretch of 4.5 sacks in 5 games, finished the final 8 games of his rookie season with 0 sacks, started every game in those 8 games, and was not only a non impact player, but was virtually invisible in each one of those games. He was also the #1 pick in the draft. What a "bust".

Again, I wasn't comparing Jarvis to Mario. I was comparing their lack of production. Actually comparing the 2 straight up is about as ignorant as labeling a player a "bust" after their first 6 games of their career. After all, Mario had a full season, one in which he declined throughout the year.

And you're completely wrong about him showing "zero promise". That's purely speculation on your part. He not only showed promise, but he showed he was a better all around player then the coaches thought he was, and they have stated it.


Denver's problems along the dline don't consist in Jarvis Moss. It consists of a system that fails, and has proven to get the least out of it's players time after time the last few years. Don't believe me? See Trevor Pryce. Let's draft another DE in the first round, who can contribute to the lack of production and be a nonfactor "who shows zero promise" along with the rest of them.

TXBRONC
03-08-2008, 01:45 PM
Mario Williams, after a stretch of 4.5 sacks in 5 games, finished the final 8 games of his rookie season with 0 sacks, started every game in those 8 games, and was not only a non impact player, but was virtually invisible in each one of those games. He was also the #1 pick in the draft. What a "bust".

Again, I wasn't comparing Jarvis to Mario. I was comparing their lack of production. Actually comparing the 2 straight up is about as ignorant as labeling a player a "bust" after their first 6 games of their career. After all, Mario had a full season, one in which he declined throughout the year.

And you're completely wrong about him showing "zero promise". That's purely speculation on your part. He not only showed promise, but he showed he was a better all around player then the coaches thought he was, and they have stated it.


Denver's problems along the dline don't consist in Jarvis Moss. It consists of a system that fails, and has proven to get the least out of it's players time after time the last few years. Don't believe me? See Trevor Pryce. Let's draft another DE in the first round, who can contribute to the lack of production and be a nonfactor "who shows zero promise" along with the rest of them.

Well said Silk.

I remember coaching saying something to the effect they were surprised that Moss played the run better than they thought he would.

dogfish
03-08-2008, 03:14 PM
We'd be passing over guys who are better tackles than those guys are WRs. I'd rather roll the dice that someone like Doucet is there in rd 2. I'd be all for Kelly, Sweed, Devin Thomas, or Doucet if we trade down. But at 12 I'd pick up a trash can and throw it like the dude from the Snickers commercial.

"NOOOOOO!!!!"




that's pretty much the reaction i'd have as well. . . .

HammeredOut
03-08-2008, 03:35 PM
HE has been on the downside since John left..

He was lucky to have the inside track on FAgency those first couple of years while he was here, but then everyone else started beating him to the better players..

HE has screwed the pooch on lousy FA's bringing in clowns year after year. Gardener, carter, rice, Kennedy and Adams to name a few, total losers..

Many of those great years also can also be attributed to a weak division/conference..

Sorry mikey is a great coach who has worked miracles with the talent levels he has brought in here..

You hit the nail on the head there. Shanny is one of the best coaches in the game. He brings in some rookies, makes them look good while they are here and turns them over for other established players.

Dogfish was trying to say they were all flops because only one player was on the team since 8 years ago. Well if you look at some of the trades they have made such as the Champ Bailey for Portis, Bly for a few packages of gatorade.

Shanny has made miracles out of talent that was passed over so much in the draft because this team never has top 10 picks or top end picks to choose from. You can't expect HOF to come out of end of the first and second rounds to often, or other teams would have selected those players along time ago.

Nature Boy
03-08-2008, 03:59 PM
Honestly you don't seem to have much understanding of what is going with Moss.

First of all from day that Moss was selected he was not to expected to start immediately. The intent was that he was going to be situational pass rusher. So he was expected to put up big numbers. His job was come in and get pressure on the quarterback. He was starting to do that with some consistency before he got hurt.

Second its incredibly disingenuous to try and compare Moss' rookie season to that of Mario Williams. Mario was expect to start from day one which by the way he did. He also played his entire rookie season and had a chance to improve but overall his rookie season was nothing to eye catching. Moss was injured so how was he going have a chance to improve if he's injured.

You say he showed zero promise I say you more than likely didn't watch any of the games because in the six games he did play he showed a lot promise. Unfortunately for him and the Broncos his season was cut short by injury.

Buzz, buzz wrong answer.

I am aware of Jarvis Moss situation before he was drafted. The guy came out early. In his freshman year or so at Florida, he suffered from a staff infection that caused him to lose considerable amount of weight. Fact is, Moss did not get much field time in college and especially not in the NFL. With that known, why waste a 1st rounder on the guy? That is also one of my points, he's a horrible selection by Coach Shanny. No excuses, all 1st rounders should make some kind of impact or he's a bust or will be the way he's looking.

2ndly, it was Silkamilka who compared Moss's rookie year to Mario Williams, not I. I only point out it's not even comparable. One sucks and the other didn't.

If you would like, I can make a DVD copy of the Broncos 1st 6 games and send it to you to show you how lousy Jarvus Moss was out there. He looked like a Jr. Varsity player playing in the Varsity squad.:welcome:

Lonestar
03-08-2008, 04:00 PM
You hit the nail on the head there. Shanny is one of the best coaches in the game. He brings in some rookies, makes them look good while they are here and turns them over for other established players.

Dogfish was trying to say they were all flops because only one player was on the team since 8 years ago. Well if you look at some of the trades they have made such as the Champ Bailey for Portis, Bly for a few packages of gatorade.

Shanny has made miracles out of talent that was passed over so much in the draft because this team never has top 10 picks or top end picks to choose from. You can't expect HOF to come out of end of the first and second rounds to often, or other teams would have selected those players along time ago.

Hey I totally agree with DOG on mickeys drafting, he has sucked from day one if you factor out the 3-4 LB he took on day one that became starters.


The fact are you have to be able to get starters on your day one picks anyone that comes out of the pack on day two are just gravy..

Can some day one picks be bust sure they can.. BUT MOST of mikey have been bust and not good finds..

BY day one here folks we are talking about if you do to have your head up your ass the top ONE HUNDRED players to come out..and starting this year the top 65

If you can't consistently come out of those top 100 players with two starters a year on day one then something is seriously wrong some where, in your organization.. I think Pat has finally stopped drinking mickeys koolade and now expects results in the draft..

I think that mikey isa great coach and could be a lot better if he did not screw himself with poor DAFTING year after year..

You are correct I do not expect HOF players in the draft where we normally draft but so far we have never had even one.. But superbowl teams are not always loaded with HOF players either..

Nature Boy
03-08-2008, 04:07 PM
Mario Williams, after a stretch of 4.5 sacks in 5 games, finished the final 8 games of his rookie season with 0 sacks, started every game in those 8 games, and was not only a non impact player, but was virtually invisible in each one of those games. He was also the #1 pick in the draft. What a "bust".



Say what? Mario Williams is a "Bust". Did you watch game last year where Denver got spanked by what was suppose to be their subordinate team the Texans? Mario Williams played like a veteran pro-bowler in that game and was the MVP. A game in which Brandon Marshall and Dummerville who were petitioning for pro-bowl votes but didn't show up.

Not comparing Jarvis to Mario Williams? You kidding me? You're the only one comparing the 2.

I don't care how you guys spin it. Jarvis Moss got 1 sack and 12 tackles in his rookie campaign. He sucked, badly.
:welcome:

HammeredOut
03-08-2008, 04:51 PM
Hey I totally agree with DOG on mickeys drafting, he has sucked from day one if you factor out the 3-4 LB he took on day one that became starters.


The fact are you have to be able to get starters on your day one picks anyone that comes out of the pack on day two are just gravy..

Can some day one picks be bust sure they can.. BUT MOST of mikey have been bust and not good finds..

BY day one here folks we are talking about if you do to have your head up your ass the top ONE HUNDRED players to come out..and starting this year the top 65

If you can't consistently come out of those top 100 players with two starters a year on day one then something is seriously wrong some where, in your organization.. I think Pat has finally stopped drinking mickeys koolade and now expects results in the draft..

I think that mikey isa great coach and could be a lot better if he did not screw himself with poor DAFTING year after year..

You are correct I do not expect HOF players in the draft where we normally draft but so far we have never had even one.. But superbowl teams are not always loaded with HOF players either..


There are 53 spots on the team that need to be filled. 45 active.

Give some stats to back up your statment.

So far this team has to draft based on potential and not what a player has already done or can do. That is the problem with having late draft picks. If you look at the long line of draft picks this team has taken and turned out, I am impressed. They have alot of starters drafted. Fans can say a player is not good or great with a statement, but I like on field and game stats myself.

Jarvis Moss is an example of a player that I think is really a 3-4 LB myself. He was drafted based on potential and his burst of the line. I listed the players that have made this roster based on drafting, and it seems surprising to me that there are a slew of 3rd, 4th rounders that have made the team. I wouldn't say that his drafting is a bust by any means. Besides, there are not many rookies that have come into the league and posted top 10 stats at there skilled position, ever.

I think that you a missing the point of Shannys system and system needs. Shanny has had more then enough players to come in and fill in threw the draft.

And to further my point as to who played where 8 seasons ago i will list them

B Stokley Played for Baltimore, Indy, then the Broncos in the last 8 seasons. Does that mean the Ravens thinks he is a flop

T Henry-Bills, Titans, Broncos, he must be a bust

D-Bly-Rams, Lions, Broncos. St.Louis must also think he is a bust.

Champ Bailey-Redskins, Broncos. Redskins must have let him go because he is a bust.

Ian Gold. Broncos-Bucs,

John Lynch- Bucs then Broncos

J Engelberger 49s-Broncos now this guy is really a bust

D-Graham- Pats-Broncos

S-Adams- Raiders, Seahawks, Bengels, Bills, then Broncos.

Well i think you should get my point. There is literally no players in the NFL that stay on that particular team from which they are drafted from for 8 seasons.

silkamilkamonico
03-08-2008, 05:07 PM
Say what? Mario Williams is a "Bust". Did you watch game last year where Denver got spanked by what was suppose to be their subordinate team the Texans? Mario Williams played like a veteran pro-bowler in that game and was the MVP. A game in which Brandon Marshall and Dummerville who were petitioning for pro-bowl votes but didn't show up.

Not comparing Jarvis to Mario Williams? You kidding me? You're the only one comparing the 2.


Unbelievable. Your using stats. Not me. That's a comparison. I'm using the logic of you're argument. That's not a comparison.

Second, I said, "according to your logic", that people said that about Williams after his rookie season. Mario Williams was drafted 2 years ago. What he did last year is irrelevant, when "labeling" him after his rookie season, which you're doing to Moss. Denver played Houston when Mario was in his second year. Not first. I think you're missing out on that one too.

Let's see if you can find another point to completely miss on.


Mario Williams played like a veteran pro-bowler in that game and was the MVP.

He also had a Pro Bowl like season.

What? You mean, a player can actually have a good second year after having a sub par rookie year? Say it ain't so.

dogfish
03-08-2008, 05:21 PM
why the hell are you guys even arguing super mario vs. jarvis moss?


regardless of which one of you "started it," there IS no comparison. . . mario was a #1 overall pick and one of the most gifted D-ends to ever come out of the college ranks. . . moss was an admitted project player who wasn't anywhere close to mario's grade (who is?)-- it's ridiculous to even compare the two. . . every bit as ridiculous as it is to judge moss after six games. . . try to have a little more patience than a six year old on a long car trip if you can. . . . :coffee:

silkamilkamonico
03-08-2008, 05:24 PM
-- it's ridiculous to even compare the two. . . every bit as ridiculous as it is to judge moss after six games. . .

Agreed.

But if Nature Boy is right, and players can't possibly get better after their rookie season, we're in a lot of trouble, with a lot of different players.

Nature Boy
03-08-2008, 05:30 PM
Unbelievable. Your using stats. Not me. That's a comparison. I'm using the logic of you're argument. That's not a comparison.

Second, I said, "according to your logic", that people said that about Williams after his rookie season. Mario Williams was drafted 2 years ago. What he did last year is irrelevant, when "labeling" him after his rookie season, which you're doing to Moss. Denver played Houston when Mario was in his second year. Not first. I think you're missing out on that one too.

Let's see if you can find another point to completely miss on.




Difference here is Mario Willaims had a de,cent rookie campaign and showed promise. Jarvis Moss hoever had 1 sack and 12 tackles in 6 games. See the difference, PROMISE or lack of. That is why I'm calling Jarvis a "Bust" as it stands. No one ever called Mario Williams a "Bust" after his rookie year, they only questioned he's draft position, but not anymore after 2007.

You brought Mario Williams into this thread, not I. I am done repeating myself, you SilkoMilko is on ignore now. Pointless, repetitive, moot points are your arguments that I have already dispelled.

dogfish
03-08-2008, 05:38 PM
Agreed.

But if Nature Boy is right, and players can't possibly get better after their rookie season, we're in a lot of trouble, with a lot of different players.

yea. . . luckily, we all know that's NOT the case. . . personally, i think it could easily take until '09 before we really see moss start to realize that enormous potential that made us move up to get him-- OR, he could indeed end up busting. . . but it's way too soon to tell. . . every player's career takes a different path, and different guys develop at different paces-- it took easy ed four full years to catch his first 100 passes, and if anyone calls him a bust they should get smacked upside the head. . .

HammeredOut
03-08-2008, 05:45 PM
yea. . . luckily, we all know that's NOT the case. . . personally, i think it could easily take until '09 before we really see moss start to realize that enormous potential that made us move up to get him-- OR, he could indeed end up busting. . . but it's way too soon to tell. . . every player's career takes a different path, and different guys develop at different paces-- it took easy ed four full years to catch his first 100 passes, and if anyone calls him a bust they should get smacked upside the head. . .

According to you then.. Your 04 draft picks should be panning out.

Nature Boy
03-08-2008, 06:07 PM
yea. . . luckily, we all know that's NOT the case. . . personally, i think it could easily take until '09 before we really see moss start to realize that enormous potential that made us move up to get him-- OR, he could indeed end up busting. . . but it's way too soon to tell. . . every player's career takes a different path, and different guys develop at different paces-- it took easy ed four full years to catch his first 100 passes, and if anyone calls him a bust they should get smacked upside the head. . .

Ed was not even close to being the #17th overall pick. When he came out the draft, had he played more than 5 yrs would have been an accomplishment. We all know he supersede that.

silkamilkamonico
03-08-2008, 06:13 PM
Difference here is Mario Willaims had a de,cent rookie campaign and showed promise. Jarvis Moss hoever had 1 sack and 12 tackles in 6 games. See the difference, PROMISE or lack of. That is why I'm calling Jarvis a "Bust" as it stands. No one ever called Mario Williams a "Bust" after his rookie year, they only questioned he's draft position, but not anymore after 2007.

You brought Mario Williams into this thread, not I. I am done repeating myself, you SilkoMilko is on ignore now. Pointless, repetitive, moot points are your arguments that I have already dispelled.

"Calling someone a "bust" after 6 games played = low football IQ."

Players have the ability to get better after their first year.

See Mario Williams.

lex
03-08-2008, 06:22 PM
why the hell are you guys even arguing super mario vs. jarvis moss?


regardless of which one of you "started it," there IS no comparison. . . mario was a #1 overall pick and one of the most gifted D-ends to ever come out of the college ranks. . . moss was an admitted project player who wasn't anywhere close to mario's grade (who is?)-- it's ridiculous to even compare the two. . . every bit as ridiculous as it is to judge moss after six games. . . try to have a little more patience than a six year old on a long car trip if you can. . . . :coffee:

Its difficult to know Moss' upside relative to Williams' with all that went on with his infection that made him lose a lot of weight and strength. Had Moss not had that infection, I could easily see him being a top 5 or 10 pick.

Nature Boy
03-08-2008, 06:26 PM
"Calling someone a "bust" after 6 games played = low football IQ."

Players have the ability to get better after their first year.

See Mario Williams.



Let's just say I am so smart I am making an educated prediction. That's the difference from a genius and a normal or average is connecting the non-obvious. In this case, it's not exactly hard. And should Jarvis Moss do develop, it'll will not be on his rookie contract he'll likely sign with another team already. Moss did not play much in College or barely last yr. A lousy pick at #17. Should've drafted an O-lineman instead in 07.

fcspikeit
03-08-2008, 06:43 PM
You hit the nail on the head there. Shanny is one of the best coaches in the game. He brings in some rookies, makes them look good while they are here and turns them over for other established players.

Dogfish was trying to say they were all flops because only one player was on the team since 8 years ago. Well if you look at some of the trades they have made such as the Champ Bailey for Portis, Bly for a few packages of gatorade.


And where did Mikey draft those few packages of Gatorade? ;)

Your right though, we got a steal for those "BUSTS" Mikey drafted in the 1st and 2nd round... And please spare us all how good you think Bell was. We could plug the water boy in at RB and he would get a 1000 yards. The bottom line is, we traded 2 very high picks who can't even make it as backups on another team.



Shanny has made miracles out of talent that was passed over so much in the draft because this team never has top 10 picks or top end picks to choose from. You can't expect HOF to come out of end of the first and second rounds to often, or other teams would have selected those players along time ago.

We have picked a lot higher then the Colts and Pats, the last 8 years. Why don't you take a look at their drafts and compare them with Mikey's. It isn't even close!

This isn't about how many of the picks are still playing with us, its about how many are even playing in the NFL. It's pathetic! Take a look at the best 5 teams from the last 8 years and compare their draft's to ours. As I said, this isn't about who is still playing with the team who drafted them. Just count the # of starters, backups and those so bad they aren't even playing anymore...

You can't count the players who have ever started as starters either, If they are starters they need to have been able to hold a starting roll their entire carrier.

Trust me, we have talked about this a lot in the past and I have seen multiple post's that flat out prove Mikey has one of the worst draft records in the NFL the last 13 years. I'm not going to go back through to show you all the #'s, if you really believe Shanahan is a good GM when it comes to the draft, do the research for yourself and compare what he has done with the rest of the league..

Npba900
03-08-2008, 11:44 PM
Listed below are all the draft picks made by coach Shanahan from 1995-2007. From what I can see w/o a doubt, the 07, 06, and 05 drafts look to be the best that Shanahan has presided over. In 2004, with the exception of DJ Williams, that draft class was an obsolute disaster. The 2003, draft class a complete bust as well b/c none of those players are currently on the Bronco roster 5 years later. By the way, what the hell happened in in '97? Did we really have only one draft pick! That's rather odd.


2007
1.17 DE Jarvis Moss Florida from JAC
2.24 DE Tim Crowder Texas
3.06 OT Ryan Harris Notre Dame from WAS
4.22 DT Marcus Thomas Florida from DEN through ATL and MIN

2006
1.11 QB Jay Cutler Vanderbilt from STL; trade 2006 1.15 and 3.04
2.29 TE Tony Scheffler Western Michigan
4.22 WR Brandon Marshall Central Florida from WAS; trade 2005 1.25 used to select QB Jason Campbell plus rec'd 2005 3.12 and 2006 1st (1.22)
4.29 DE Elvis Dumervil Louisville
4.33 WR Domenik Hixon Akron compensatory pick
5.28 OG Chris Kuper North Dakota
6.29 OC Greg Eslinger Minnesota

2005
2.24 CB Darrent Williams Oklahoma State
3.12 CB Karl Paymah Washington State from WAS; trade draft picks 2005 1.25 plus rec'd 2006 1st and 2006 4th
3.26 pick forfeited due to salary cap violations
3.34 CB Domonique Foxworth Maryland compensatory pick
3.38 RB Maurice Clarett Ohio State compensatory pick
6.26 OC Chris Myers Miami
7.25 P Paul Ernster Northern Arizona

2004
1.17 OLB D.J. Williams Miami from CIN; trade draft pick 2004 1.24, 4.22 and CB Deltha O'Neal
2.09 RB Tatum Bell Oklahoma State from WAS; trade RB Clinton Portis plus receive CB Champ Bailey
2.22 WR Darius Watts Marshall
3.22 DB Jeremy LeSueur Michigan
5.20 CB Jeff Shoate San Diego State
6.06 WR Triandos Luke Alabama from WAS; compensation DT Lional Dalton (2003)
6.25 OC Josh Sewell Nebraska
7.24 QB Matt Mauck Louisiana State
7.46 RB Brandon Miree Pittsburgh compensatory pick
7.49 QB Bradlee Van Pelt Colorado State compensatory pick

2003
1.20 OT George Foster Georgia
2.19 OLB Terry Pierce Kansas State
4.11 RB Quentin Griffin Oklahoma from CAR; trade draft picks
4.17 DE Nick Eason Clemson
4.31 DE Bryant McNeal Clemson from NE; trade draft picks (was from GB; trade WR Terry Glenn (2002))
5.22 OG Ben Claxton Mississippi from NE; trade draft picks
5.23 WR Adrian Madise Texas Christian
6.21 DE Aaron Hunt Texas Tech
7.13 DE Clint Mitchell Florida from CAR; trade draft picks
7.21 RB Ahmaad Galloway Alabama

2002
1.19 WR Ashley Lelie Hawaii
2.19 RB Clinton Portis Miami
3.31 DT Dorsett Davis Mississippi State
4.33 FS Sam Brandon Nevada-Las Vegas
5.09 WR Herb Haygood Michigan State
6.19 TE Jeb Putzier Boise State
7.17 SS Chris Young Georgia Tech
7.20 DT Monsanto Pope Virginia

2001
1.24 CB Willie Middlebrooks Minnesota
2.20 DE Paul Toviessi Marshall
3.25 DE Reggie Hayward Iowa State
4.18 OG Ben Hamilton Minnesota
4.25 P Nick Harris California
6.27 WR Kevin Kasper Iowa

2000
1.15 CB Deltha O'Neal California
2.09 OLB Ian Gold Michigan
2.14 SS Kenoy Kennedy Arkansas
3.08 WR Chris Cole Texas A&M
4.07 DT Jerry Johnson Florida State
4.18 OG Cooper Carlisle Florida
5.25 WR Muneer Moore Richmond
6.23 RB Mike Anderson Utah
7.08 QB Jarious Jackson Notre Dame
7.40 WR Leroy Fields Jackson State

1999
1.31 MLB Al Wilson Tennessee
3.06 CB Chris Watson Eastern Illinois
3.32 WR Travis McGriff
4.32 RB Olandis Gary Georgia
5.25 DE David Bowens Western Illinois
5.34 CB Darwin Brown
6.10 TE Desmond Clark Wake Forest
6.35 WR Chad Plummer
7.32 TE Justin Swift Kansas State

1998
1.30 WR Marcus Nash
2.31 S Eric Brown Mississippi State
3.30 QB Brian Griese Michigan
4.30 RB Curtis Alexander
5.30 RB Chris Howard
7.30 LB Nate Wayne Mississippi

1997
1.28 DE Trevor Pryce Clemson

3 67 Dan Neil G Texas
4 124 Cory Gilliard DB Ball State


1996
1.15 LB John Mobley Kutztown, Pa.
2.14 CB Tory James Louisiana State
3.04 RB Detron Smith Texas A&M
3.17 DT Mark Campbell
4.05 QB Jeff Lewis
5.27 WR Patrick Jeffers
6.14 DB Tony Veland

1995
4.26 LB Ken Brown
5.12 LB Phil Yeboah-Kodie
6.25 RB Terrell Davis Georgia
7.10 LB Steve Russ

HammeredOut
03-09-2008, 02:11 PM
And where did Mikey draft those few packages of Gatorade? ;)

Your right though, we got a steal for those "BUSTS" Mikey drafted in the 1st and 2nd round... And please spare us all how good you think Bell was. We could plug the water boy in at RB and he would get a 1000 yards. The bottom line is, we traded 2 very high picks who can't even make it as backups on another team.




We have picked a lot higher then the Colts and Pats, the last 8 years. Why don't you take a look at their drafts and compare them with Mikey's. It isn't even close!

This isn't about how many of the picks are still playing with us, its about how many are even playing in the NFL. It's pathetic! Take a look at the best 5 teams from the last 8 years and compare their draft's to ours. As I said, this isn't about who is still playing with the team who drafted them. Just count the # of starters, backups and those so bad they aren't even playing anymore...

You can't count the players who have ever started as starters either, If they are starters they need to have been able to hold a starting roll their entire carrier.

Trust me, we have talked about this a lot in the past and I have seen multiple post's that flat out prove Mikey has one of the worst draft records in the NFL the last 13 years. I'm not going to go back through to show you all the #'s, if you really believe Shanahan is a good GM when it comes to the draft, do the research for yourself and compare what he has done with the rest of the league..

If you look at the 8 years and compare those with the NFL average of a 4 year career. Then I wouldn't be surprised. Like I said before I like on field stats and how they performed while they were Broncos. And this team has been one of the top 5 teams the last 8 seasons. Just look at the record.

Besides, you are trying to compare teams that have great HOF QB's that will be first ballot on NE and Indy, and you also have players willing to go to those teams and sign for less money. Something Denver doesnt have the luxury of. I have listed the draft and who was who that was selected. Id say there are more then enough players that went on and became starters in around the league.

I will go from year to year.

95 Terrell Davis, had seasons of 1117,1538, 1750,2008 yards as Bronco
96 John Mobley started 8 seasons and won back to back championships
96 Tory James has 39 Career INTs
97 Dan Neil a 9 year starter
97 Trevor Price 79 Career sacks
98 Brian Griese a good back up Qb teams are still trading for.
98 Eric Brown played 7 seasons
98 Nate Wayne played 8 seasons
99 Orlandis Gary popped off a 1200 yard season in just 12 games as a rookie
99 Des Clark still getting 500-600 yard seasons
99 Al Wilson went to the pro-bowl 5 times
00 Mike Anderson, popped off a 1457 yard season as a rookie
00 Cooper Carlisle still and 8 year starter
00 Kenoy Kennedy still an 8 year starter
00 Ian Gold an 8 year starter
00 Deltha Oneil an 8 year starter popped off 25 PD as a Bronco and had 10 INTs in one season with Bengels
01 Nick Harris avg 44.3 yards a punt last season.
01 Ben Hamilton still starting
01 Reggie Hayword 38 career sacks
01 Middlebrooks showed up for 4 years but atleast lasted 4 seasons
02 Ashley Lilie averaged about 800 yards a season the last 3 seasons as a Bronco
02 Clintin Portis after 6 seasons has nearly 8000 yards of total rushing
02 Jeb Putzier is still lingering around
02 Sam Brandon out lasted the 4 year career average and went 5
02 Mo Pope played 4 seasons the NFL average
03 George Foster part of that pillage deal we got out of detroit.
04 Tatum Bell we got back to back 1000 yard seasons as a back-up and a key part of that pillage deal in detroit
04 DJ Williams still starting
05 D Williams RIP
05 D Foxworth is still starting
05 Maurice Clarette. Naw just kidding
06 Jay Cutler
06 B Marshall a 1000 yard season
06 E Dumerville a sack master
06 Tony Scheffler
07 the jury is still out until next season.

Id say that drafting is not the problem here. You can't expect to get all starters across the board for you team all the way down to the 7th round like i think you are trying to indicate.

And if these players performed well while they were here and had better then good stats. I am satisfied. If we had the ability to trade off players on a downword and have the ability to get something back for them, Then it was a successful trade.

and so far about 34 players have panned out to have NFL careers. That seems like a success to me. The Patroits have only really drafted an O-line, Brady, and L Muroony since 00'.

Put up stats and PROVE your POINT :welcome:

And you will be very hard pressed to find any player in the NFL that stays with the same team for 5 seasons. Very Rare. Thats NFL football.

silkamilkamonico
03-09-2008, 02:42 PM
Let's just say I am so smart I am making an educated prediction. That's the difference from a genius and a normal or average is connecting the non-obvious. In this case, it's not exactly hard.

You're a "genius", and you don't even know what a comparison is?

If this was a year ago, you would be saying Mario Williams was the ultimate first round bust, because he was chosen #1 overall, and didn't play like the first overall pick.

There goes the "theory" of Nature Boy = "Genius".

Nature Boy
03-09-2008, 05:16 PM
You're a "genius", and you don't even know what a comparison is?

If this was a year ago, you would be saying Mario Williams was the ultimate first round bust, because he was chosen #1 overall, and didn't play like the first overall pick.

There goes the "theory" of Nature Boy = "Genius".

If I was talking about 1 DE, say Jarvis Moss and you bring in Mario Williams. I don't know about you but I'd say that's an automatic comparison. But anyways, I am tired of repeating myself. You win if it makes you feel bettet. :welcome:

fcspikeit
03-09-2008, 05:59 PM
If you look at the 8 years and compare those with the NFL average of a 4 year career. Then I wouldn't be surprised. Like I said before I like on field stats and how they performed while they were Broncos. And this team has been one of the top 5 teams the last 8 seasons. Just look at the record.


There is no doubt Shanahan is a good coach, because of that, we have done more with less talent then most teams. The fact is, almost every RB we had that put up great #'s while here couldn't maintain a starters roll anywhere else. That tells us the system made them what they were.. That is a credit to Shanahan the coach not the GM..



Besides, you are trying to compare teams that have great HOF QB's that will be first ballot on NE and Indy, and you also have players willing to go to those teams and sign for less money. Something Denver doesnt have the luxury of. I have listed the draft and who was who that was selected. Id say there are more then enough players that went on and became starters in around the league.


I only used the Colts and Pats because they have consistently drafted in the late rounds the last few years as we have. If I had used one of the teams always drafting in the top 10 you would say they drafted better because they were picking higher...

Being able to get FA at a better price has nothing to do with it. We are talking about being able to draft talent, Mikey has done alright in FA, I would say better then most. He has working out some deals via trade that was well in our favor.. However, for some reason his eye for talent stops with the draft..




Id say that drafting is not the problem here. You can't expect to get all starters across the board for you team all the way down to the 7th round like i think you are trying to indicate.

And if these players performed well while they were here and had better then good stats. I am satisfied. If we had the ability to trade off players on a downword and have the ability to get something back for them, Then it was a successful trade.

and so far about 34 players have panned out to have NFL careers. That seems like a success to me. The Patroits have only really drafted an O-line, Brady, and L Muroony since 00'.

Put up stats and PROVE your POINT :welcome:

And you will be very hard pressed to find any player in the NFL that stays with the same team for 5 seasons. Very Rare. Thats NFL football.

As I said before, this isn't about keeping the players you drafted, It is about the # of good players drafted.

You didn't prove anything by throwing out some players and saying that proves your point. I asked you to compare what Shanahan has done with the rest of the league. Your making this into a one sided debate by only showing what Shanahan has done.

There has been none biased studies done, that compare what Shanahan has done in the draft with the rest of the NFL over the last 13 years. They counted the # of starters, backups and complete bust's. Shanahan/Denver was among the worst in the NFL. I didn't post the stats, I for the most part was under the same impression you are about our draft record. After looking over the stats, it was clear to see, Mikey is terrible at the draft. If anyone has the study that was done handy please post it, Otherwise I will see if I can find it... I believe Dream was the one that posted it before?

When you consider how bad we have been at the draft, it really is amazing how well we have done under Shanahan. If we had a real GM that could draft as well as most NFL teams, How much better would we be?

HammeredOut
03-10-2008, 05:23 PM
There is no doubt Shanahan is a good coach, because of that, we have done more with less talent then most teams. The fact is, almost every RB we had that put up great #'s while here couldn't maintain a starters roll anywhere else. That tells us the system made them what they were.. That is a credit to Shanahan the coach not the GM..





I only used the Colts and Pats because they have consistently drafted in the late rounds the last few years as we have. If I had used one of the teams always drafting in the top 10 you would say they drafted better because they were picking higher...

Being able to get FA at a better price has nothing to do with it. We are talking about being able to draft talent, Mikey has done alright in FA, I would say better then most. He has working out some deals via trade that was well in our favor.. However, for some reason his eye for talent stops with the draft..





As I said before, this isn't about keeping the players you drafted, It is about the # of good players drafted.

You didn't prove anything by throwing out some players and saying that proves your point. I asked you to compare what Shanahan has done with the rest of the league. Your making this into a one sided debate by only showing what Shanahan has done.

There has been none biased studies done, that compare what Shanahan has done in the draft with the rest of the NFL over the last 13 years. They counted the # of starters, backups and complete bust's. Shanahan/Denver was among the worst in the NFL. I didn't post the stats, I for the most part was under the same impression you are about our draft record. After looking over the stats, it was clear to see, Mikey is terrible at the draft. If anyone has the study that was done handy please post it, Otherwise I will see if I can find it... I believe Dream was the one that posted it before?

When you consider how bad we have been at the draft, it really is amazing how well we have done under Shanahan. If we had a real GM that could draft as well as most NFL teams, How much better would we be?

Well The only stat you have come up with is another forum user, and what he said some while ago and a few high 5's.

If you are saying that 34 players that have come out of the draft and had atleast a minimum 4 year career is not a good thing. Then I don't know what kind of drafting you are talking about because it doesn't exist. The players I listed I thought was good, as there career stats up until now have shown.

If they performed while they were Broncos and had great stats while they were here, then I would say its a success for the Broncos drafting. I could care less how they did after they left the Broncos, and I think alot of other fans would say the same aswell.

And most of those players I listed played more then the Average NFL career, how can that not be a good draft pick. The only way fans like yourself will ever learn about football insightfully is threw gaining knowledge in forums like this. Because if you didn't understand my point about drafting and having players make the roster, then I don't know if you should talking about football.

:beer:
:defense:

silkamilkamonico
03-10-2008, 09:17 PM
If they performed while they were Broncos and had great stats while they were here, then I would say its a success for the Broncos drafting. I could care less how they did after they left the Broncos, and I think alot of other fans would say the same aswell.


Every single team in the NFl has players, that they drafted, be a success and put up great stats. That proves time and time again that it is not enough to be a good drafting organization that builds results.

Why Denver is bad at drafting in the Shanahan era (this is my humble opinion, feel free to argue).

1)Denver is one of the lowest teams in the NFL, if not the lowest, that's 53 man roster is made up of player that they did not draft.

2)Teams that draft well have a core makeup of players, including impact players, that that team has drafted. (i.e. Indianapolis Colts - almost every single starter on offense, was drafted by the Colts organization. The Colts have more Starters on offense alone that they drafted then Denver does on their entire offense/defense/special teams makeup as starters.

3)When a team has a continuous turnover of drafted players, that leave for whatever reason while still on their rookie contract, they are drafting terrible. It allows no continuity, and it gives no basis of a foundation for a team to build around. In Shanahan's 12(?) drafts here, Denver has, for the first time, a basis to build around and succeed.

Notes about Denver's drafting during the Shanahan era. Keep in mind "busts" don't include players like Ashley Lelie, who was a contributor, but hardly an impact player like a first round player should be.

-Denver has arguably had more first round "busts" then "impact" players.

-Denver in the top 5 of all NFL teams with 1st round drafted "busts".

-Denver is in the bottom 5 in drafted first round "impact" players. And this includes teams like New England, and Indianapolis that have continuously draft lower than Denver.

-Denver's most drafting success has been oline, on the second day. Face it, that's sad.

-Shanahan has made some great picks with franchise players in Davis, Mobley, Pryce, Neil, Wilson, Hamilton, Portis, WIlliams, Cutler, and Marshall.

-Shanahan's also made some godforsaken blunders in Nash, Reagor, Middlebrooks, Toviesi, DDavis, Pierce, Watts, and Clarett. All were either released before the start of preseason, made 0 contribution to the team, or was such a disappointment that they were flat out released before their rookie contract expires, which is a sad sad thing. None of these players were second day picks.

dogfish
03-10-2008, 09:38 PM
2)Teams that draft well have a core makeup of players, including impact players, that that team has drafted. (i.e. Indianapolis Colts - every single starter on offense, was drafted by the Colts organization. The Colts have more Starters on offense alone that they drafted then Denver does on their entire offense/defense/special teams makeup as starters.



for the better part of this decade, the colts have had a core of peyton manning, marvin harrison, reggie wayne, tarik glenn, and dallas clarke (jeff saturday was a UDFA that was originally signed by baltimore, but never played there). . . ryan diem and jake scott were also draft picks. . . with that core, they have won one super bowl, and been one of the conference's top seeds how many times now? that's not even mentioning draft pick edge james, a two-time rushing champ who was an instrumental part of their O for many years-- but they draft so many good players, they can't afford to keep them all, and james left town for big money in AZ. . . and they promptly replaced him with another talented draft pick (joseph addai) who's already proven to be a success at this level. . .

and that's just the O. . . they also have big time stars bob sanders and dwight freeney on defense. . . and other very solid players including marlin jackson, robert mathis, kelvin hayden, and freddy keiaho. . . antione bethea and ed johnson are solid role players that have helped the D come together. . . mike peterson and marcus washingto were studs they could't afford to keep. . .

they've built a team that is one of the top 2-3 super bowl favorites year in and year out, and they've done it almost exclusively through the draft-- the only thing even close to an impact free agent that they've brought in is DTs booger macfarland and corey simon, and neither really played a significant role there. . . oh wait, i guess they did sign a kicker! :lol:

seriously, anyone who thinks the broncos drafts can even be compared to drafts like that. . . *shakes head* time to take off the orange-tinted glasses. . . just look at all the pro-bowlers and all-pros, the guys who have led the league in various statistical categories. . . 2 first ballot hall of famers for sure, and two others who'll have very good chances when all's said and done. . . and before anyone brings it up, yes, manning was a #1 overall pick-- but bob sanders was a 2nd rounder, and he just won the defensive MVP. . . when was the last time denver drafted an all-pro? hell, besides d.j. williams we hadn't drafted a player worth keeping in years, let alone anything resembling a quality core player-- if not for an excellent '06 draft, we wouldn't even HAVE a core to build around! but yea, we're world beaters because lilly got a thousand yards one year. . . :lol:

HammeredOut
03-11-2008, 09:43 PM
Every single team in the NFl has players, that they drafted, be a success and put up great stats. That proves time and time again that it is not enough to be a good drafting organization that builds results.

Why Denver is bad at drafting in the Shanahan era (this is my humble opinion, feel free to argue).

1)Denver is one of the lowest teams in the NFL, if not the lowest, that's 53 man roster is made up of player that they did not draft.

2)Teams that draft well have a core makeup of players, including impact players, that that team has drafted. (i.e. Indianapolis Colts - almost every single starter on offense, was drafted by the Colts organization. The Colts have more Starters on offense alone that they drafted then Denver does on their entire offense/defense/special teams makeup as starters.

3)When a team has a continuous turnover of drafted players, that leave for whatever reason while still on their rookie contract, they are drafting terrible. It allows no continuity, and it gives no basis of a foundation for a team to build around. In Shanahan's 12(?) drafts here, Denver has, for the first time, a basis to build around and succeed.

Notes about Denver's drafting during the Shanahan era. Keep in mind "busts" don't include players like Ashley Lelie, who was a contributor, but hardly an impact player like a first round player should be.

-Denver has arguably had more first round "busts" then "impact" players.

-Denver in the top 5 of all NFL teams with 1st round drafted "busts".

-Denver is in the bottom 5 in drafted first round "impact" players. And this includes teams like New England, and Indianapolis that have continuously draft lower than Denver.

-Denver's most drafting success has been oline, on the second day. Face it, that's sad.

-Shanahan has made some great picks with franchise players in Davis, Mobley, Pryce, Neil, Wilson, Hamilton, Portis, WIlliams, Cutler, and Marshall.

-Shanahan's also made some godforsaken blunders in Nash, Reagor, Middlebrooks, Toviesi, DDavis, Pierce, Watts, and Clarett. All were either released before the start of preseason, made 0 contribution to the team, or was such a disappointment that they were flat out released before their rookie contract expires, which is a sad sad thing. None of these players were second day picks.

This team has never had anything higher then a top 15 pick since Shanny took over.

D O'neill was a 15th overall pick and thus fur he has 39 Career INTs and had a whack load of pass deflections.

There is no such thing as team loyalty these days. There are far to many talented players that are healthier then the next player. Injuries happen so much in the NFL that players don't stick around that long because of them.

Im not sure about which first round draft busts you are referring to because as I seen since 95. All of them have started and put up good numbers from where they were drafted from.

I don't how you can expect Hall of Famers in at the end of the first round like you are indicating. This team has had its fair share of good players and most of them I listed played for the Broncos for about 4 seasons the average NFL career anyways.

You have not given any stats or finished off your points by stats either. I would like to see what you are trying to indicate by showing how much of a bust they were and compare those players within 10 draft spots either side of where that player was selected, and you will understand what I am talking about.

If you don't do the research I will, and show you, this discussion issnt even locker room worthy.

fcspikeit
03-12-2008, 12:02 AM
This team has never had anything higher then a top 15 pick since Shanny took over.


How long have you been a Broncos fan? Lets see, Cutler was drafted 2 years ago...





I would like to see what you are trying to indicate by showing how much of a bust they were and compare those players within 10 draft spots either side of where that player was selected, and you will understand what I am talking about.

This would be completely unfair to Shanahan! You wouldn't be comparing him to the other GM's individual draft record, you would be comparing him against the entire NFL. Every GM has drafted bust's in the first round. If you went 10 either direction you will surely find a better player then what Mickey drafted.

The only fair way to do it is to compare each GM's draft record as a whole against Mickey. Beings we have one of the highest winning% One should compare what Mickey has done against the other GM's with the same winning%. Pats, Colts, Pitt, etc, etc. Figuring, those with the same winning% were picking around the same spot as Shanahan.

TXBRONC
03-12-2008, 07:21 AM
This team has never had anything higher then a top 15 pick since Shanny took over.

D O'neill was a 15th overall pick and thus fur he has 39 Career INTs and had a whack load of pass deflections.

There is no such thing as team loyalty these days. There are far to many talented players that are healthier then the next player. Injuries happen so much in the NFL that players don't stick around that long because of them.

Im not sure about which first round draft busts you are referring to because as I seen since 95. All of them have started and put up good numbers from where they were drafted from.

I don't how you can expect Hall of Famers in at the end of the first round like you are indicating. This team has had its fair share of good players and most of them I listed played for the Broncos for about 4 seasons the average NFL career anyways.

You have not given any stats or finished off your points by stats either. I would like to see what you are trying to indicate by showing how much of a bust they were and compare those players within 10 draft spots either side of where that player was selected, and you will understand what I am talking about.

If you don't do the research I will, and show you, this discussion issnt even locker room worthy.

That's not exactly accurate Jay Cutler was taken with 11th overall pick two years ago.

silkamilkamonico
03-12-2008, 10:01 AM
This team has never had anything higher then a top 15 pick since Shanny took over.

Oops. Great research there.



There is no such thing as team loyalty these days. There are far to many talented players that are healthier then the next player. Injuries happen so much in the NFL that players don't stick around that long because of them.

are you saying we have the least amount of drafted players and more "busts" because of injuries? What?


Im not sure about which first round draft busts you are referring to because as I seen since 95. All of them have started and put up good numbers from where they were drafted from.

Willie Middlebrooks and MArcus Nash? Marcus Nash had what, 4 career catches? I don't even think you understand what you're arguing.


I don't how you can expect Hall of Famers in at the end of the first round like you are indicating.

I didn't say anything about HOF. Now you're just taking my argument and reaching. Completely.


This team has had its fair share of good players and most of them I listed played for the Broncos for about 4 seasons the average NFL career anyways.

Every team has it's fair share of good players. You're not understanding that for some reason. Does that make every team a great drafting team?


You have not given any stats or finished off your points by stats either. I would like to see what you are trying to indicate by showing how much of a bust they were and compare those players within 10 draft spots either side of where that player was selected, and you will understand what I am talking about.

I don't have to give stats. Any Denver fan since Shanahan took over knows what I'm talking about. They know how Marcus Nash and Willie Middlebrooks failed miserably. They know that Terry Pierce was flat out released after his 1-2 seasons. They know that Paul Toviesi didn't do anything for the organization.


and you will understand what I am talking about.

I'm not sure I wanna understand what you're talking about. According to you, Marcus Nash was a good first round pick because he had 4 career catches.

If stats say that's a good pick because you got production, then according to your logic there is no such thing as a first round pick bust.


If you don't do the research I will, and show you, this discussion issnt even locker room worthy.

You're right, it isn't locker room worthy. You completely ignored my notes about drafting, you haven't offered any basis of your own other than, "if he got some stats he was a good pick", and you're getting at me for not doing any "research", when your the one who hasn't been a Denver fan very long and actually think 4 catches in 2 seasons makes a first round WR a "good pick".
'
You haven't even given any example of what you consider a draft bust. Probably because they all put up at least a little stats.

Chinese is a very difficult language to learn when you're looking at words and thinking trees.