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Magnificent Seven
01-26-2010, 11:43 PM
One of the most closely watched players in the AFC West this offseason will be Denver linebacker Elvis Dumervil.

Dumervil will likely be a restricted free agent and he could be one of the most pursued players in the league. Dumervil led the NFL with 17 sacks last season. He is a perfect pass-rusher in the 3-4 defense.

Dumervil is also known as a team leader and a solid citizen. He will be attractive to teams.

One team that could make a real run at him is Miami. The Dolphins’ new defensive coordinator is Mike Nolan. Dumervil had his best NFL season under Nolan in 2009. Plus, Dumervil is from Miami. He’d probably love to play for the Dolphins.

However, expect Denver to do everything it can to keep Dumervil. He is the centerpiece of the defense. With receiver Brandon Marshall and quarterback Kyle Orton also likely restricted free agents, it wouldn’t be a surprise if Dumervil is the top priority.

Denver will likely put a high tender on Dumervil that would make it difficult for him to leave. Still, this will be a very interesting situation to watch in the coming weeks.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/9508/denver-wont-let-dumervil-simply-walk-away

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
01-26-2010, 11:46 PM
Doom stays.

I have spoken.

Shazam!
01-27-2010, 12:43 AM
I pray you're right. Losing a top-flight front seven defender in Denver, a team desperate for quality at those positions and a history of mediocrity would be horrible. Worse than when Shanahan dismantled a very serviceable DLine with Pryce and Co. years ago.

bcbronc
01-27-2010, 01:35 AM
not that this matters, just something I'm curious about...has anyone seen a breakdown of how many of Doom's sacks this year came when he lined up with his hand in the dirt vs OLB?

Magnificent Seven
01-27-2010, 01:49 AM
Coach McDaniels could be dumb if he decided to let him go. We love Dumervil and we want him to stay in Denver! Come on, Dumervil! Give us 20+ sacks in season 2010!!!!

Northman
01-27-2010, 07:03 AM
DOOM MUST STAY.

That is all.

claymore
01-27-2010, 07:36 AM
Peace out Doom. Thanks for the memories!

SOCALORADO.
01-27-2010, 08:32 AM
not that this matters, just something I'm curious about...has anyone seen a breakdown of how many of Doom's sacks this year came when he lined up with his hand in the dirt vs OLB?

I know he had 11 of his sacks on 3rd down if thats any help.
I know it was a help to the Broncos.
I cant remember the last time DEN had a pass rush like that.
97?98?

SoCalImport
01-27-2010, 11:04 AM
Just give him a new contract...like yesterday.

arapaho2
01-27-2010, 12:53 PM
my whole issue is.....the boy wonder should have made every attempt to resign him...as important as he is to the defense...before the season ended.

he has never been a problem..he has never been anything but a model player and citizen..whether capped or uncapped..those are the type of players you want around..period

to even go into free agency without a deal at least on the table is incredibley stupid ..to sit back and wait to see what other teams offer and decide if we wanna match it..is another one of the boy wonders monumental mistakes

CoachChaz
01-27-2010, 01:00 PM
Suddenly McD is the GM and the one that writes the checks. I must have missed that promotion

arapaho2
01-27-2010, 01:04 PM
Suddenly McD is the GM and the one that writes the checks. I must have missed that promotion

then you also missed the whole years worth of conversation, news reports..that state josh has full control of this team..

get with the program:rolleyes:

D1g1tal j1m
01-27-2010, 01:12 PM
I loved what Doom did for our team throughout the year, but he is a one-dimensional passrusher (a good one at that) that opposing teams ran at in the second half of the season and everyone knows the results. If Miami or any other team signs him to a large contract then Denver should not hesitate to take the compensation that will allow us to build the biggest and most physical team we can possibly have.

CoachChaz
01-27-2010, 01:19 PM
then you also missed the whole years worth of conversation, news reports..that state josh has full control of this team..

get with the program:rolleyes:

Every time I think I've achieved the elite level of being an immensely ignorant richard nogon, I'm always slapped into reality by a true master of the art.

I guess everyone twists the written word to fit their perception. Carry on, master

silkamilkamonico
01-27-2010, 01:49 PM
to even go into free agency without a deal at least on the table is incredibley stupid ..to sit back and wait to see what other teams offer and decide if we wanna match it..is another one of the boy wonders monumental mistakes


Actually, it's quite genius. How much are you willing to pay for a one trick pony? He's gauging to see how much people are willing to pay, and give up, for him.

You're argument of "f it, just give the guy top 5 money because he's Dumerville even though he isn't worth it" is a monumental mistake.

Guys like DeMarcus Ware and James Harrison actually play the run.

NightTrainLayne
01-27-2010, 02:11 PM
Please knock off the personal comments guys.

claymore
01-27-2010, 02:15 PM
Sell high!

EMB6903
01-27-2010, 02:33 PM
my whole issue is.....the boy wonder should have made every attempt to resign him...as important as he is to the defense...before the season ended.

he has never been a problem..he has never been anything but a model player and citizen..whether capped or uncapped..those are the type of players you want around..period

to even go into free agency without a deal at least on the table is incredibley stupid ..to sit back and wait to see what other teams offer and decide if we wanna match it..is another one of the boy wonders monumental mistakes

Why would Dumervil sign midseason and not wait it out to see if he can get the biggest contract?

But youre right, Its Mcdaniels fault.

silkamilkamonico
01-27-2010, 02:41 PM
Why would Dumervil sign midseason and not wait it out to see if he can get the biggest contract?

But youre right, Its Mcdaniels fault.

Shanahan missing the playoffs the last 3 years with his franchise QB = McKid's fault.

arapaho2
01-27-2010, 06:24 PM
Actually, it's quite genius. How much are you willing to pay for a one trick pony? He's gauging to see how much people are willing to pay, and give up, for him.

You're argument of "f it, just give the guy top 5 money because he's Dumerville even though he isn't worth it" is a monumental mistake.

Guys like DeMarcus Ware and James Harrison actually play the run.


no it could be incredibly stupid...lets say mid season, doom is having a good start, with a little drop off...maybe he takes a 5 year 45 mill deal..18 guaranteed...with ten million tied up in incentives extension...great were all happy!!

but because he didnt we are now were looking at comparable deals..demarcus ware signed his in 09...74 mill...45 guaranteed...ware put up 64 sacks in five seasons..ware had 45 solo tackles...11 sacks..5 forced fumbles in 09

doom has put up 43 sacks in basicaly his first three years starting...including his wasted year in the slowick system
doom had 43 solo tackles, 17 sacks..4 forced fumbles in 09

your idea is the same idealogy that allowed all the good d linemen walk out of town under shanny (pryce, Berry, heywood)...wait to see what the market brings and hope to GOD you can match it

a smart coach team signs it future stars before the value is jacked up by FA

arapaho2
01-27-2010, 06:28 PM
Why would Dumervil sign midseason and not wait it out to see if he can get the biggest contract?

But youre right, Its Mcdaniels fault.


because doom is a team player...give him a decent number...he'll stay

gaurantee the price will increase 30-40% by not signing him until the bidding war starts

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
01-27-2010, 06:33 PM
Ol' Pat is not broke and this is an uncapped season. Let's take that into account.

These players make zillions of dollars for team owners and television networks...they deserve to be broken off a piece since none of it exists without them.

arapaho2
01-27-2010, 06:45 PM
Ol' Pat is not broke and this is an uncapped season. Let's take that into account.

These players make zillions of dollars for team owners and television networks...they deserve to be broken off a piece since none of it exists without them.


we wernt broke last season either..we had close to 40 million in cap space...more then enough to keep marshall and doom signed and happy
during the season

silkamilkamonico
01-27-2010, 06:50 PM
no it could be incredibly stupid...lets say mid season, doom is having a good start, with a little drop off...maybe he takes a 5 year 45 mill deal..18 guaranteed...with ten million tied up in incentives extension...great were all happy!!

Yea, like Doomervil would sell himself short by signing up for something pedestrian like that in an elite class of LB's. Terrible argument and rational thinking.


but because he didnt we are now were looking at comparable deals..demarcus ware signed his in 09...74 mill...45 guaranteed...ware put up 64 sacks in five seasons..ware had 45 solo tackles...11 sacks..5 forced fumbles in 09

Hmm, do we want to match this offer of $$, or instead take the frist and third round draft pick or whatever great comp it is? Win......win.


doom has put up 43 sacks in basicaly his first three years starting...including his wasted year in the slowick system
doom had 43 solo tackles, 17 sacks..4 forced fumbles in 09

Meanwhile, our defense is still incredibly lowsy against the run, and Dumervil gets absolutely dwarved and is deemed irrelevant in that area, not to mention Denver was significantly worse against the run towards his side of the field, but "pay the man his elite money".


your idea is the same idealogy that allowed all the good d linemen walk out of town under shanny (pryce, Berry, heywood)...wait to see what the market brings and hope to GOD you can match it

Considering our compromise was an at best 3rd round comp pick, not really. Doom will be tendered much higher than that.

Your idea is the same ideology of paying a guy like Vince young high level-elite money because he moves the ball on the ground and Pro Bowl QB, even though he's a pedestrian at best passing QB.

EMB6903
01-27-2010, 07:05 PM
because doom is a team player...give him a decent number...he'll stay

gaurantee the price will increase 30-40% by not signing him until the bidding war starts

"BECAUSE HES A TEAM PLAYER!" lol

Doom would have been retarded to sign mid season before he was hailed All-Pro and potential defensive player of the year.

What I want to know is how you know there werent any talks about a longterm deal?

EMB6903
01-27-2010, 07:06 PM
I think Dumervil is a hell of a player. An amazing pass rusher.

Do I think he deserves James Harrison, Terrell Suggs, or Demarcus Ware type money?

no way.

arapaho2
01-27-2010, 07:13 PM
Yea, like Doomervil would sell himself short by signing up for something pedestrian like that in an elite class of LB's. Terrible argument and rational thinking.


many players do every year....maybe eli should have tested the waters..or rivers...didnt they sign early ?


Hmm, do we want to match this offer of $$, or instead take the frist and third round draft pick or whatever great comp it is? Win......win.

again based upon mcds last draft..id rather take doom



Meanwhile, our defense is still incredibly lowsy against the run, and Dumervil gets absolutely dwarved and is deemed irrelevant in that area, not to mention Denver was significantly worse against the run towards his side of the field, but "pay the man his elite money".

bull crap!!! doom lined up on both sides of the field..didnt you watch at all? surely you cant blame the run defense on doom...but then you do easily dismiss the 11 killed drives with sacks on 3rd down...4 turnovers he created not alone the other 6 sacks in the much improved passing defense


Considering our compromise was an at best 3rd round comp pick, not really. Doom will be tendered much higher than that.

Your idea is the same ideology of paying a guy like Vince young high level-elite money because he moves the ball on the ground and Pro Bowl QB, even though he's a pedestrian at best passing QB.


and again...doom had 43 solo tackles...ware 45..compare the numbers ..doom was better then a guy getting 74 million dollars

it would only be smart to offer something early and start from there...i watched shanny decide to sit and see what the FA price would be before...never quit worked out in our favor

arapaho2
01-27-2010, 07:22 PM
I think Dumervil is a hell of a player. An amazing pass rusher.

Do I think he deserves James Harrison, Terrell Suggs, or Demarcus Ware type money?

no way.

really?

doom........42 solo tackls....17 sacks....4 ff
j. allen......43 solo.............14.5..........5
d ware......45 solo.............11.............5
Mario w.....34....................9..............2
woodly......49...................13.............1
harrisen.....60...................10.............5
porter........34....................9............. 1

based off that...just what kind of money does he deserve

T.K.O.
01-27-2010, 09:48 PM
a bazillionkajilliontrillion dollars ?
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1438764958111&id=32446f7c96cf9b915f01e1b50440e6e7&tmaxh=85

Northman
01-27-2010, 09:48 PM
really?

doom........42 solo tackls....17 sacks....4 ff
j. allen......43 solo.............14.5..........5
d ware......45 solo.............11.............5
Mario w.....34....................9..............2
woodly......49...................13.............1
harrisen.....60...................10.............5
porter........34....................9............. 1

based off that...just what kind of money does he deserve


Amen.

But i guess its Doom's fault that he didnt get to play in the system designed for him like Ware and company had for his entire tenure in Denver. I guess its his fault that there is virtually no Dline in front of him either to help alleviate the pressure in the running game. I mean ****, he's a one man army he should of been covering and tackling everyone out there. :lol: How bout we pay the guy, get some help on the Dline for him and try keeping a system implanted so that the guy can be consistant where it suits him best. Nah, thats silly talk. Lets just dump the guy now because we all know in the next draft we are going to pick up 7 unproven HOF's right off the bat and all we be well in Broncoland.

T.K.O.
01-27-2010, 09:53 PM
Every time I think I've achieved the elite level of being an immensely ignorant richard nogon, I'm always slapped into reality by a true master of the art.

I guess everyone twists the written word to fit their perception. Carry on, master

richard nogon ?.......thats too:lol:

Medford Bronco
01-27-2010, 09:58 PM
a bazillionkajilliontrillion dollars ?
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1438764958111&id=32446f7c96cf9b915f01e1b50440e6e7&tmaxh=85

He deserves his part of the stimulus package.
:lol:

He stimulates our pass rush :salute:

JDL
01-27-2010, 11:16 PM
I love the misinformation people state around here as if they haven't followed football ever or seriously don't believe others have.

Demarcus Ware

2006 - 71 Tackles 11.5 Sacks 5PD 5FF
2007 - 84 Tackles 14 Sacks 4PD 4FF
2008 - 84 Tackles 20 Sacks 2PD 6FF
2009 - 57 Tackles 11 Sacks 6PD 5FF (Think maybe it was just a down year due to the barrage of injuries he had? a back injury most of the year and a neck injury late.)

James Harrison

2006 - 20 Tackles 0 Sacks 0PD 0FF (not a starter)
2007 - 98 Tackles 8.5 Sacks 3PD 7FF
2008 - 101 Tackles 16 Sacks 3PD 7FF
2009 - 79 Tackles 10 Sacks 2PD 5FF

Those are the gold standards for 3-4 LBs. Suggs is a step below and that is a big reason he hasn't been able to get paid yet.

Elvis Dumervil

2006 - 17.5 Tackles 8.5 Sacks 1PD 1FF
2007 - 39 Tackles 12.5 Sacks 4PD 4FF
2008 - 24 Tackles 5 Sacks 0PD 1FF
2009 - 49 Tackles 17 Sacks 3PD 4FF

All stats per NFL.com

You know the density of some of the people here. How is it acceptable to be that way and be some willfully deceptive to try and prove your misinformed point? Above is the ENTIRE picture... you see what Ware and Harrison did to earn their big contracts, it isn't even debatable it is far above what Dumervil did in his best season. The reason for the discrepancy is his inability to be truly stout at the point of attack and overall attack opposing rushers. We can't pay him in the HOPE he becomes one of those elite/special players, those guys got paid for proving it.

Nobody is suggesting that we give Dumervil away for a bag of peanuts, he's a great player and seems to be a genuinely good person we all can feel good about being a Bronco but consider...

Elvis Dumervil (4th rd)
Jared Allen (4th rd)
Dwight Freeney (1st rd)
Lamar Woodley (2nd rd)
Will Smith (1st rd)
Trent Cole (5th rd)
Andre Carter (1st rd)
Demarcus Ware (1st rd)
Brian Orakpo (1st rd)
Julius Peppers (1st rd)
Aaron Schobel (2nd rd)
James Harrison (UDFA)
Clay Matthews (1st rd)
Robert Mathis (5th rd)
Tully Banta Cain (7th rd)
Joey Porter (3rd rd)
Mario Williams (1st rd)
Tamba Hali (1st rd)
Ray Edwards (4th rd)
Juqua Parker (UDFA)

Blast from the past: Bertrand Berry (UDFA), Reggie Hayward (3rd rd), Simon Fletcher (2nd rd) <- our all-time sack leader.

So, you have a very simple scenario. Dumervil (reportedly) wants Demarcus Ware money, he has not produced like Demarcus Ware. The market will probably pay him something just under Ware and Denver will get a 1st rd and 3rd rd pick. Finding a pass-rusher... particularly a 3-4 OLB pass rusher, does not really require a 1st rd pick, not to replace Dumervil's production... so from a value standpoint, it makes a lot of sense to seriously consider trading him. Same honestly goes for a guy like Ryan Harris (RTs easy to find, Washington might be willing to give up a very early 2nd rd pick for him and it wouldn't cost that to replace him, plus injury considerations.)

It's pure valuation. There is this sense from some people that teams should and will no doubt give up half their draft for any of our players they are so damn special and great... take Tony Scheffler and the people who constantly propose just trading him for a 2nd... like huh???? McD already tried to trade him and really couldn't find a suitor, the league is actually pretty saturated with TEs and Scheffler is very inconsistent and has fumbling issues. Nice weapon and I like him, but let's be honest about what these guys are ACTUALLY worth - whether contract or draft picks. I read somewhere that Bowlen is around the 20th wealthiest owner (he's no billionaire owner) money matters. The Broncos are a valuable franchise, but that isn't all that goes into the supporting of these player's salaries. Denver has to be cost conscious and not be giving too overinflated of contracts to players who have not earned it. Again love Doom, but Denver cannot risk paying him Ware money to find out if he can produce like Ware one day. It just seems really simple.

arapaho2
01-28-2010, 12:18 PM
I love the misinformation people state around here as if they haven't followed football ever or seriously don't believe others have.

Demarcus Ware

2006 - 71 Tackles 11.5 Sacks 5PD 5FF
2007 - 84 Tackles 14 Sacks 4PD 4FF
2008 - 84 Tackles 20 Sacks 2PD 6FF
2009 - 57 Tackles 11 Sacks 6PD 5FF (Think maybe it was just a down year due to the barrage of injuries he had? a back injury most of the year and a neck injury late.)

James Harrison

2006 - 20 Tackles 0 Sacks 0PD 0FF (not a starter)
2007 - 98 Tackles 8.5 Sacks 3PD 7FF
2008 - 101 Tackles 16 Sacks 3PD 7FF
2009 - 79 Tackles 10 Sacks 2PD 5FF

Those are the gold standards for 3-4 LBs. Suggs is a step below and that is a big reason he hasn't been able to get paid yet.

Elvis Dumervil

2006 - 17.5 Tackles 8.5 Sacks 1PD 1FF
2007 - 39 Tackles 12.5 Sacks 4PD 4FF
2008 - 24 Tackles 5 Sacks 0PD 1FF
2009 - 49 Tackles 17 Sacks 3PD 4FF

All stats per NFL.com

You know the density of some of the people here. How is it acceptable to be that way and be some willfully deceptive to try and prove your misinformed point? Above is the ENTIRE picture... you see what Ware and Harrison did to earn their big contracts, it isn't even debatable it is far above what Dumervil did in his best season. The reason for the discrepancy is his inability to be truly stout at the point of attack and overall attack opposing rushers. We can't pay him in the HOPE he becomes one of those elite/special players, those guys got paid for proving it.

Nobody is suggesting that we give Dumervil away for a bag of peanuts, he's a great player and seems to be a genuinely good person we all can feel good about being a Bronco but consider...

Elvis Dumervil (4th rd)
Jared Allen (4th rd)
Dwight Freeney (1st rd)
Lamar Woodley (2nd rd)
Will Smith (1st rd)
Trent Cole (5th rd)
Andre Carter (1st rd)
Demarcus Ware (1st rd)
Brian Orakpo (1st rd)
Julius Peppers (1st rd)
Aaron Schobel (2nd rd)
James Harrison (UDFA)
Clay Matthews (1st rd)
Robert Mathis (5th rd)
Tully Banta Cain (7th rd)
Joey Porter (3rd rd)
Mario Williams (1st rd)
Tamba Hali (1st rd)
Ray Edwards (4th rd)
Juqua Parker (UDFA)

Blast from the past: Bertrand Berry (UDFA), Reggie Hayward (3rd rd), Simon Fletcher (2nd rd) <- our all-time sack leader.

So, you have a very simple scenario. Dumervil (reportedly) wants Demarcus Ware money, he has not produced like Demarcus Ware. The market will probably pay him something just under Ware and Denver will get a 1st rd and 3rd rd pick. Finding a pass-rusher... particularly a 3-4 OLB pass rusher, does not really require a 1st rd pick, not to replace Dumervil's production... so from a value standpoint, it makes a lot of sense to seriously consider trading him. Same honestly goes for a guy like Ryan Harris (RTs easy to find, Washington might be willing to give up a very early 2nd rd pick for him and it wouldn't cost that to replace him, plus injury considerations.)

It's pure valuation. There is this sense from some people that teams should and will no doubt give up half their draft for any of our players they are so damn special and great... take Tony Scheffler and the people who constantly propose just trading him for a 2nd... like huh???? McD already tried to trade him and really couldn't find a suitor, the league is actually pretty saturated with TEs and Scheffler is very inconsistent and has fumbling issues. Nice weapon and I like him, but let's be honest about what these guys are ACTUALLY worth - whether contract or draft picks. I read somewhere that Bowlen is around the 20th wealthiest owner (he's no billionaire owner) money matters. The Broncos are a valuable franchise, but that isn't all that goes into the supporting of these player's salaries. Denver has to be cost conscious and not be giving too overinflated of contracts to players who have not earned it. Again love Doom, but Denver cannot risk paying him Ware money to find out if he can produce like Ware one day. It just seems really simple.

how convieniet for you to forget,,,doom has been in four differant defensive schemes since his rookie campaign...didnt play until the second half of his rookie season and did that as a third and long de..

had a decent season as a 2nd yr de in TWO DIFFERANT SCHEMES..IN 07

Played with a broken hand in a horrible slowick system where inside push wasnt wanted from the DTs..allowing the qb to step up and away the pass rush of the Des..in 08

then is moved to a 3-4 olb in his forth defensive scheme in his third season..in 09

and so i see nothing that says not worth some big bucks

as for him wanting ware money...your gonna have to show me where that was stated..link please..cause as it stands now i truely believe if we would have put a fair and decent contract on the table..he would have signed

and contrary to your belief if a nfl sack leader was so easy to find..most teams would have one..as it is alot of teams have the average..6-8 sack guy...but very few will have the 12-15 sack per season guys

CoachChaz
01-28-2010, 12:34 PM
how convieniet for you to forget,,,doom has been in four differant defensive schemes since his rookie campaign...didnt play until the second half of his rookie season and did that as a third and long de..

had a decent season as a 2nd yr de in TWO DIFFERANT SCHEMES..IN 07

Played with a broken hand in a horrible slowick system where inside push wasnt wanted from the DTs..allowing the qb to step up and away the pass rush of the Des..in 08

then is moved to a 3-4 olb in his forth defensive scheme in his third season..in 09

and so i see nothing that says not worth some big bucks

as for him wanting ware money...your gonna have to show me where that was stated..link please..cause as it stands now i truely believe if we would have put a fair and decent contract on the table..he would have signed
and contrary to your belief if a nfl sack leader was so easy to find..most teams would have one..as it is alot of teams have the average..6-8 sack guy...but very few will have the 12-15 sack per season guys

Unfounded assumption. Show me ANY player headed towards free agency that is having a career year that has no desire to test free agency if given the chance and I'll show you someone that just got a ridiculous contract. (Demarcus Ware)

arapaho2
01-28-2010, 01:04 PM
Unfounded assumption. Show me ANY player headed towards free agency that is having a career year that has no desire to test free agency if given the chance and I'll show you someone that just got a ridiculous contract. (Demarcus Ware)

its also an unfounded assumption he wouldnt ...right?
but again your dismissing the fact doom is a team player..sure he wants and in my opinion deserves to be paid...but there is nooooo reason whatso ever to not atleast put up a contract on the table and start working towards an agreed on amount. there are players every year that take less to stay with the team they played on

we have no record of doom being a me type guy..thers nothing but a hrad working team player

if we could get a deal done early in the season before the probowl nod..before the leagues sack champ title..before FA....it woulda been a smart move to do so

just because you fans dont think he's worth ware type money is no reason to try and get an extension early

EMB6903
01-28-2010, 02:31 PM
really?

doom........42 solo tackls....17 sacks....4 ff
j. allen......43 solo.............14.5..........5
d ware......45 solo.............11.............5
Mario w.....34....................9..............2
woodly......49...................13.............1
harrisen.....60...................10.............5
porter........34....................9............. 1

based off that...just what kind of money does he deserve

Pull out all the stats you want to say Dumervil is as good as Allen, Ware, Mario Williams and James Harrison is crazy. As outstanding of a pass rusher as Dumervil is hes still a huge liability against the run whether you want to admit that or not. Im a big fan of his and hope he remains a Bronco.

But I dont think he deserves to be one of the highest paid defensive players in league history. Thats all.

TXBRONC
01-28-2010, 02:43 PM
I love the misinformation people state around here as if they haven't followed football ever or seriously don't believe others have.

Demarcus Ware

2006 - 71 Tackles 11.5 Sacks 5PD 5FF
2007 - 84 Tackles 14 Sacks 4PD 4FF
2008 - 84 Tackles 20 Sacks 2PD 6FF
2009 - 57 Tackles 11 Sacks 6PD 5FF (Think maybe it was just a down year due to the barrage of injuries he had? a back injury most of the year and a neck injury late.)

James Harrison

2006 - 20 Tackles 0 Sacks 0PD 0FF (not a starter)
2007 - 98 Tackles 8.5 Sacks 3PD 7FF
2008 - 101 Tackles 16 Sacks 3PD 7FF
2009 - 79 Tackles 10 Sacks 2PD 5FF

Those are the gold standards for 3-4 LBs. Suggs is a step below and that is a big reason he hasn't been able to get paid yet.

Elvis Dumervil

2006 - 17.5 Tackles 8.5 Sacks 1PD 1FF
2007 - 39 Tackles 12.5 Sacks 4PD 4FF
2008 - 24 Tackles 5 Sacks 0PD 1FF
2009 - 49 Tackles 17 Sacks 3PD 4FF

All stats per NFL.com

You know the density of some of the people here. How is it acceptable to be that way and be some willfully deceptive to try and prove your misinformed point? Above is the ENTIRE picture... you see what Ware and Harrison did to earn their big contracts, it isn't even debatable it is far above what Dumervil did in his best season. The reason for the discrepancy is his inability to be truly stout at the point of attack and overall attack opposing rushers. We can't pay him in the HOPE he becomes one of those elite/special players, those guys got paid for proving it.

Nobody is suggesting that we give Dumervil away for a bag of peanuts, he's a great player and seems to be a genuinely good person we all can feel good about being a Bronco but consider...

Elvis Dumervil (4th rd)
Jared Allen (4th rd)
Dwight Freeney (1st rd)
Lamar Woodley (2nd rd)
Will Smith (1st rd)
Trent Cole (5th rd)
Andre Carter (1st rd)
Demarcus Ware (1st rd)
Brian Orakpo (1st rd)
Julius Peppers (1st rd)
Aaron Schobel (2nd rd)
James Harrison (UDFA)
Clay Matthews (1st rd)
Robert Mathis (5th rd)
Tully Banta Cain (7th rd)
Joey Porter (3rd rd)
Mario Williams (1st rd)
Tamba Hali (1st rd)
Ray Edwards (4th rd)
Juqua Parker (UDFA)

Blast from the past: Bertrand Berry (UDFA), Reggie Hayward (3rd rd), Simon Fletcher (2nd rd) <- our all-time sack leader.

So, you have a very simple scenario. Dumervil (reportedly) wants Demarcus Ware money, he has not produced like Demarcus Ware. The market will probably pay him something just under Ware and Denver will get a 1st rd and 3rd rd pick. Finding a pass-rusher... particularly a 3-4 OLB pass rusher, does not really require a 1st rd pick, not to replace Dumervil's production... so from a value standpoint, it makes a lot of sense to seriously consider trading him. Same honestly goes for a guy like Ryan Harris (RTs easy to find, Washington might be willing to give up a very early 2nd rd pick for him and it wouldn't cost that to replace him, plus injury considerations.)

It's pure valuation. There is this sense from some people that teams should and will no doubt give up half their draft for any of our players they are so damn special and great... take Tony Scheffler and the people who constantly propose just trading him for a 2nd... like huh???? McD already tried to trade him and really couldn't find a suitor, the league is actually pretty saturated with TEs and Scheffler is very inconsistent and has fumbling issues. Nice weapon and I like him, but let's be honest about what these guys are ACTUALLY worth - whether contract or draft picks. I read somewhere that Bowlen is around the 20th wealthiest owner (he's no billionaire owner) money matters. The Broncos are a valuable franchise, but that isn't all that goes into the supporting of these player's salaries. Denver has to be cost conscious and not be giving too overinflated of contracts to players who have not earned it. Again love Doom, but Denver cannot risk paying him Ware money to find out if he can produce like Ware one day. It just seems really simple.

For the first three years of his career he was strictly a down lineman so I don't think that a real fair comparison.

GEM
01-28-2010, 04:01 PM
JDL....you proved your point finely...and you would have done so even better had you left calling everybody dense out. I have trouble reading the rest of your post after you feel the need to point out the density of our posters here....even if sometimes it is true. :lol:

CoachChaz
01-28-2010, 04:40 PM
JDL....you proved your point finely...and you would have done so even better had you left calling everybody dense out. I have trouble reading the rest of your post after you feel the need to point out the density of our posters here....even if sometimes it is true. :lol:

The only people that are dense are the ones that dont agree with the negativity.

GEM
01-28-2010, 04:43 PM
The only people that are dense are the ones that dont agree with the negativity.

It was a sad attempt at being funny. :pout:

yardog
01-28-2010, 04:57 PM
The only people that are dense are the ones that dont agree with the negativity.

Here I was thinking it was the ones of us that see the negativity in our situation.

arapaho2
01-28-2010, 05:36 PM
Pull out all the stats you want to say Dumervil is as good as Allen, Ware, Mario Williams and James Harrison is crazy. As outstanding of a pass rusher as Dumervil is hes still a huge liability against the run whether you want to admit that or not. Im a big fan of his and hope he remains a Bronco.

But I dont think he deserves to be one of the highest paid defensive players in league history. Thats all.


dude...where did i say he did???? :tsk:...take a break chill out...read..digest..understand...then open your yap

i am merely saying had mcd started the contract negotiations prior to the end of the season..chances are we get him cheaper then waiting to match the bidding wars now after the season ends...you savvey?

as for him not being as good as those guys..i'll respectfully call your post crap....doom in his new role of 3-4 olb played just as well as any of those guys did...you cant say the run game was worse his side...he lined up both sides all game...always moving sometimes hand in the dirt..sometimes up..sometimes right...sometimes left..he had

but for you to say the defense was worse on his side of the ball is a out right lie

what he has done is show remarkable ability to adapt and be productive...more then any of those guys...aside from peezy they all been basiccaly in the same system...and they all have dline help

doom has been basicaly on his own..has had 5 dif DC cordinators...survied the hellish season under slowick..and came out looking great...he deserves to be paid

arapaho2
01-28-2010, 05:37 PM
The only people that are dense are the ones that dont agree with the negativity.


dont you mean blindly follow mcd and believe he is gods gift to football ???:confused:

Ravage!!!
01-28-2010, 05:56 PM
its also an unfounded assumption he wouldnt ...right?
but again your dismissing the fact doom is a team player..sure he wants and in my opinion deserves to be paid...but there is nooooo reason whatso ever to not atleast put up a contract on the table and start working towards an agreed on amount. there are players every year that take less to stay with the team they played on

Every player wants to get paid. RARELY do you see a guy give up money so they can stay on one team. Usually, thats one that has already gotten paid BIG bucks in the past. Doom hasn't.

Even Wilfork, from the NE Patriots, the team that EVERYONE says is pure team oriented and will stay with the Patriots because they ARE the Patriots, said that he's not going to stay simply because they might have a shot at the title. He wants the most money.

Doom knows that he MUST cash in NOW.. while his value is at its highest. It may never be this high, and at the right time like it is right now..... ever again. He's going to want to get paid.

Even Kyle Orton, the boards "team player".. stated that EVERY player looks forward to that time when they are UFA. Because they want the money.

There is no reason to believe that Doom is going to play santa clause.

WARHORSE
01-28-2010, 06:21 PM
If Dumerville wants a decent and fair deal....pay him.


If he wants a Ware/Suggs type contract..........BYE BYE.


I'll trade him to NE for Vince Wilfork. NE needs a pass rush.

arapaho2
01-28-2010, 06:32 PM
If Dumerville wants a decent and fair deal....pay him.


If he wants a Ware/Suggs type contract..........BYE BYE.


I'll trade him to NE for Vince Wilfork. NE needs a pass rush.


thats my point...alot of really good player give the home team a discount..are willing to work with a team that treats them right

but we also know once the FA bidding wars start...the price goes up

we shoulda started the process along time ago before it gets outrageous

Northman
01-28-2010, 07:17 PM
I'll trade him to NE for Vince Wilfork. NE needs a pass rush.

So does Denver.

Ziggy
01-28-2010, 07:25 PM
So does Denver.

True, but I'd take a dominant 3-4 NT over a 3-4 rushing LB every time. They are both valuable, but it all starts with the NT.

Northman
01-28-2010, 07:49 PM
True, but I'd take a dominant 3-4 NT over a 3-4 rushing LB every time. They are both valuable, but it all starts with the NT.

Unfortuantely, that NT is looking for his own big payday which probably means the highest bidder.

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
01-28-2010, 07:52 PM
Unfortuantely, that NT is looking for his own big payday which probably means the highest bidder.

I'm sure he'll be franchised, you get two franchise and two of the other tags in an uncapped year.

T.K.O.
01-28-2010, 09:47 PM
does mcD negotiate contracts ?
would he be doing that while coaching a team during the season ?
or would x and other fo people handle that ?
just wondering....i dont recall shanny sitting at the bargaining table with a bunch of agents hashing out the details of contracts while gameplanning ,coaching and watching film on upcoming opponents ?:confused:

EMB6903
01-29-2010, 07:39 PM
dude...where did i say he did???? :tsk:...take a break chill out...read..digest..understand...then open your yap

i am merely saying had mcd started the contract negotiations prior to the end of the season..chances are we get him cheaper then waiting to match the bidding wars now after the season ends...you savvey?

as for him not being as good as those guys..i'll respectfully call your post crap....doom in his new role of 3-4 olb played just as well as any of those guys did...you cant say the run game was worse his side...he lined up both sides all game...always moving sometimes hand in the dirt..sometimes up..sometimes right...sometimes left..he had

but for you to say the defense was worse on his side of the ball is a out right lie

what he has done is show remarkable ability to adapt and be productive...more then any of those guys...aside from peezy they all been basiccaly in the same system...and they all have dline help

doom has been basicaly on his own..has had 5 dif DC cordinators...survied the hellish season under slowick..and came out looking great...he deserves to be paid

Actually you pretty much did say that. comparing Suggs, Ware, and Harrisons stats right here....


really?

doom........42 solo tackls....17 sacks....4 ff
j. allen......43 solo.............14.5..........5
d ware......45 solo.............11.............5
Mario w.....34....................9..............2
woodly......49...................13.............1
harrisen.....60...................10.............5
porter........34....................9............. 1

based off that...just what kind of money does he deserve

Youre probably too ignorant to realize that Harrison, Ware, Allen, and Suggs have some of the highest paid contracts in NFL history as far as defensive players go.

Ware= 6 year 78 mil, 40 mil guarenteed.

Allen= 6 year 74 mil, 36 mil guarenteed.

Suggs= 6 year 62 mil, 38 mil guarenteed.

Harrison= 6 year 51 mil 20 guarenteed (at the age of 31) Dont think Dumervil's contract will be this small.

I just dont think hes the type of player that deserves that type of money.

arapaho2
01-30-2010, 09:39 PM
Actually you pretty much did say that. comparing Suggs, Ware, and Harrisons stats right here....



Youre probably too ignorant to realize that Harrison, Ware, Allen, and Suggs have some of the highest paid contracts in NFL history as far as defensive players go.

Ware= 6 year 78 mil, 40 mil guarenteed.

Allen= 6 year 74 mil, 36 mil guarenteed.

Suggs= 6 year 62 mil, 38 mil guarenteed.

Harrison= 6 year 51 mil 20 guarenteed (at the age of 31) Dont think Dumervil's contract will be this small.

I just dont think hes the type of player that deserves that type of money.

ok your gonna have to help me understand just where your lack of understanding started....

when i said we made a mistake not pursueing dooms contract early in the season, when he may have signed at a cheaper rate....opposed to waiting for the bidding wars to start

or when you said he's just a pass rusher and lied about our defense being weaker on his side and not worth the money, so i showed stats that he is compareble in sacks, FF and tackles to the very best???.

you may not think a guy whos equaled the best in the leagues stats is worth top money...but im sure other teams do

so what part of my belief we coulda got him cheaper and at a fair rate if we had put up a contract early to start...dont you get

Denver Native (Carol)
01-30-2010, 09:46 PM
when i said we made a mistake not pursueing dooms contract early in the season, when he may have signed at a cheaper rate....opposed to waiting for the bidding wars to start

There is no way for any of us to know if the Broncos spoke with Doom's agent during the season, and the agent preferred to wait until the season is over - it's a possibility.

Ziggy
01-30-2010, 09:50 PM
These same folks that are now whining about Doom not being paid earlier are the same ones that would whine about him being overpaid had he gotten a new contract and disappeared in the 2nd half of the season, or had a bad season overall. Isn't hindsight great? You can always find a reason to play the hating game.

T.K.O.
01-30-2010, 09:54 PM
the broncos have been in contract "NEGOTIATIONS" with key players throughout the 09' campaign....i doubt very much that doom was excluded.
did you ever consider that it is the players ....not the team that have yet to accept or commit to the team ?
we have made offers to marshall multiple times since he got over his hissy in tc.
some reportedly would have made him one of the leagues highest paid wr's
just sayin'....i doubt the fo has been sitting on their collective arses all year hoping our rfa's just decide to stay because they like the mile high air !

TXBRONC
01-30-2010, 10:21 PM
If Dumerville wants a decent and fair deal....pay him.


If he wants a Ware/Suggs type contract..........BYE BYE.


I'll trade him to NE for Vince Wilfork. NE needs a pass rush.

A problem I see with that is we don't any other proven pass rushers on the defense.

arapaho2
01-30-2010, 10:40 PM
There is no way for any of us to know if the Broncos spoke with Doom's agent during the season, and the agent preferred to wait until the season is over - it's a possibility.


lets hope thats what happened....look at his remarks in the story you posted,,,,alot of next years and we's we'res we are ...leads me to believe he wants to come back

when a player wants to come back they will sign cheaper ...i have seen nothing from the guy thats its about money

all im saying is...its a mistake to wait to see what the market price will be when we might not want to go that high ..specially if he woulda signed cheaper...mid season

Denver Native (Carol)
01-30-2010, 10:52 PM
lets hope thats what happened....look at his remarks in the story you posted,,,,alot of next years and we's we'res we are ...leads me to believe he wants to come back

when a player wants to come back they will sign cheaper ...i have seen nothing from the guy thats its about money

all im saying is...its a mistake to wait to see what the market price will be when we might not want to go that high ..specially if he woulda signed cheaper...mid season

http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_14122887?source=rss

No one seemed to take the disappointing end of the season harder than outside linebacker Elvis Dumervil, who perhaps had the best year of any Broncos player. He led the NFL with 17 sacks, a Denver record.

"We just didn't get it done. It was a total embarrassment," Dumervil said. "I'm sorry the fans had to come out and see something like that."

Like teammates Brandon Marshall, Tony Scheffler, Kyle Orton and Chris Kuper, Dumervil has played the final game under his rookie contract and will be a restricted free agent if a new collective bargaining agreement is not passed. But Dumervil said he would like to remain in Denver.

"I'd love to be a Bronco," he said. "The community here is great. I think the coaching staff is good here. I've got good teammates. But that's not a personal decision. It depends on both sides and what we can get done. We'll see what happens."

Even though Doom states he wants to come back, many agents have a major influence on their players - i.e. the more the player gets - the more the agent gets.

EMB6903
01-30-2010, 11:02 PM
ok your gonna have to help me understand just where your lack of understanding started....

when i said we made a mistake not pursueing dooms contract early in the season, when he may have signed at a cheaper rate....opposed to waiting for the bidding wars to start



My bad, youre right. If we would have signed him mid season (when he was on pace to break the sack record) that would have been a lot cheaper for Denver.

How did signing Demarcus Ware mid season pan out?

Im pretty sure he received a huge contract regardless.

Youre only making yourself look foolish. Just stop

Ziggy
01-30-2010, 11:10 PM
If Dumerville wants a decent and fair deal....pay him.


If he wants a Ware/Suggs type contract..........BYE BYE.


I'll trade him to NE for Vince Wilfork. NE needs a pass rush.

I'm disagreeing with you here Warhorse. A dominating pass rusher is 1 of the 3 most important positions in the NFL, and one of the hardest assets to find. Look at the teams who were most successful over the last decade. Pittsburgh and New England. They both paid huge contracts to OLB pass rushers. Both are known for being frugal with stars, but knew that a dominant pass rusher is worth paying for.

Doom didn't just lead the NFL in sacks. He did it in a new system, learning a new position, and behind an average at best Dline. Put talent in front of him and he'll be challenging the sack record on a yearly basis. THis is a guy that has proven that he can put up hall of fame numbers when healthy. 43 sacks in 4 years, with 4 different D coordinators, lousy talent on the Dline in front of him, and playing different positions.

Simon Fletcher was the last dominant pass rusher this team had. It's took over a decade to replace him. How many teams don't have a dominant pass rusher? Most of them.

Let's also look at the fact that Doom is just coming into his prime, is a team player, and has great character. Factor all this up, and it's just time to pay the man. He's worth a lot more than a 1st and 3rd round pick.

EMB6903
01-30-2010, 11:13 PM
Where was doom in 2008? no where to be found

Yet we have people thinking that we should pay him 30 mil guarenteed, because he dominated in his contract year in a "new system" that benefited him?
Dumervil is an elite pass rusher but thats it. I dont think a player who is a liability against the run is worth as much as he is. as "rare" as pass rushers are.

Ziggy
01-30-2010, 11:26 PM
Where was doom in 2008? no where to be found

Yet we have people thinking that we should pay him 30 mil guarenteed, because he dominated in his contract year in a "new system" that benefited him?
Dumervil is an elite pass rusher but thats it. I dont think a player who is a liability against the run is worth as much as he is. as "rare" as pass rushers are.

He was dealing with injuries and playing in and out of the lineup in 2008. Even so, he had 5 sacks. If you want to call this year a fluke, that's your choice. 43 sacks in 4 years is no fluke. This is while playing in different systems with different coordinators every year. Spin it any way you want, but the best GM's in the league know to pay the best pass rushers. If you want to shop Doom, I guaruntee you that teams will be lining up to make offers.

EMB6903
01-31-2010, 02:16 PM
He was dealing with injuries and playing in and out of the lineup in 2008. Even so, he had 5 sacks. If you want to call this year a fluke, that's your choice. 43 sacks in 4 years is no fluke. This is while playing in different systems with different coordinators every year. Spin it any way you want, but the best GM's in the league know to pay the best pass rushers. If you want to shop Doom, I guaruntee you that teams will be lining up to make offers.

Why would you even bring up that I said Dumervil's 2009 season was a fluke? I never once said such thing. I just dont think hes worth 60 million dollars. I think players paid that type of money shouldnt have years where they are nowhere to be found, and he was an average player at best in 2008.(Slowick excuse is getting old)

This team has too many needs to dish out that type of money to one player.

arapaho2
01-31-2010, 11:49 PM
My bad, youre right. If we would have signed him mid season (when he was on pace to break the sack record) that would have been a lot cheaper for Denver.

How did signing Demarcus Ware mid season pan out?

Im pretty sure he received a huge contract regardless.

Youre only making yourself look foolish. Just stop




speaking of fools...how did signing one of the best pass rushers in the game work out...pretty well for the cowboys id say..wouldnt you? i wonder how much more they might have payed him if there was a bidding war???

how did waiting for FA work for the titans with haynsworth???...thats right they lost him when he walked for the highest contract

the game always has solid indevidules who will sign....i just dont see where your narrow mind cannot grasp the idealogy that some players may be satisfied with a fair contract...which would be cheaper then letting FA set the bottom line

EMB6903
02-01-2010, 02:30 PM
speaking of fools...how did signing one of the best pass rushers in the game work out...pretty well for the cowboys id say..wouldnt you? i wonder how much more they might have payed him if there was a bidding war???

how did waiting for FA work for the titans with haynsworth???...thats right they lost him when he walked for the highest contract

the game always has solid indevidules who will sign....i just dont see where your narrow mind cannot grasp the idealogy that some players may be satisfied with a fair contract...which would be cheaper then letting FA set the bottom line


Ware has no weaknesses defensively, hes not a liability against the run nor rushing the passer. Hes also solid in coverage for a big man.

a player like that I wouldnt mind paying.

but youre only looking stupid thinking Dumervil is as good as Ware.


as for youre last BS comment on... "some players are satisfied with a fair contract" Youre living in a dream world kiddo.

"HOME TOWN DISCOUNT" <~~~~ LMAO

T.K.O.
02-01-2010, 05:29 PM
Let's now talk about some of this weekend's headlines:

Is Dumervil on Miami's radar?
The biggest Dolphin-related story to come out of this weekend really relates back to the biggest story last week - Mike Nolan's hiring as defensive coordinator. With Nolan now in Miami, speculation is beginning about Miami's possible interest in Broncos outside linebacker Elvis Dumervil - who led the NFL in 2009 with 17 sacks.

Most of this speculation is stemming from a report by ESPN's Adam Schefter, who tweeted:

Mike Nolan brings 3-4 defense to Miami, along with knowledge of Broncos free agent LB Elvis Dumervil. Look for him to be on Miami's radar.

But Dumervil is scheduled to be a restricted free agent - meaning the Dolphins can't simply negotiate with him and sign him, if they were interested. Instead, they would have to work something out with the Broncos as well. I'd imagine that Denver will at least use the first round tender on Dumervil ($2.4 million) and could even use the first-and-third round tender offer ($3.1 million).



So if the Dolphins were interested, you'd have to expect the Dolphins to try working out a trade with Denver rather than simply handing over at least a first round pick. And in all honesty, I wouldn't even think about giving up the #12 overall pick for Dumervil. Why? The guy is only 5'11 and is a one trick pony. Yes - he can rush the passer. But he gets blocked into next week when teams run at him. He flat out stinks against the run. In fact, of all 3-4 OLBs to play at least 25% of their team's defensive snaps, ProFootballFocus rated Dumervil as the 2nd worst run defender in the league.

Besides, don't the Dolphins already have a one trick pass-rushing pony named Cameron Wake? Why not let him develop? Let's see what Nolan and his scheme can do for him.

Nomad
02-01-2010, 05:41 PM
Would you trade Dumervil for Porter??

arapaho2
02-01-2010, 05:51 PM
Ware has no weaknesses defensively, hes not a liability against the run nor rushing the passer. Hes also solid in coverage for a big man.

a player like that I wouldnt mind paying.

but youre only looking stupid thinking Dumervil is as good as Ware.


as for youre last BS comment on... "some players are satisfied with a fair contract" Youre living in a dream world kiddo.

"HOME TOWN DISCOUNT" <~~~~ LMAO


where did i say that??? oh i get it your minds made up so your sticking your head in the sand...got it

claymore
02-01-2010, 05:52 PM
Would you trade Dumervil for Porter??

No!

Nomad
02-01-2010, 05:54 PM
No!

I wouldn't either but I thought I'd ask the question being he told Rome he wanted to be traded!!

arapaho2
02-01-2010, 05:55 PM
Ware has no weaknesses defensively, hes not a liability against the run nor rushing the passer. Hes also solid in coverage for a big man.

a player like that I wouldnt mind paying.

but youre only looking stupid thinking Dumervil is as good as Ware.


as for youre last BS comment on... "some players are satisfied with a fair contract" Youre living in a dream world kiddo.

"HOME TOWN DISCOUNT" <~~~~ LMAO


weird though how ware has no weakness...not a liability..good against the run..all around...and doom isnt:coffee:

it must be that additional 3 solo tackles that put him over the edge

claymore
02-01-2010, 05:55 PM
I wouldn't either but I thought I'd ask the question being he told Rome he wanted to be traded!!

We dont have the leadership to keep that dude in check. His play no longer outweighs his mouth too.

Nomad
02-01-2010, 05:57 PM
we dont have the leadership to keep that dude in check. his play no longer outweighs his mouth too.

qft!!

TXBRONC
02-01-2010, 05:59 PM
Would you trade Dumervil for Porter??

I wouldn't. Porter is six years older than Dumervil and his production is about the same as that of Dumervil.

JDL
02-01-2010, 06:02 PM
Where was doom in 2008? no where to be found

Yet we have people thinking that we should pay him 30 mil guarenteed, because he dominated in his contract year in a "new system" that benefited him?
Dumervil is an elite pass rusher but thats it. I dont think a player who is a liability against the run is worth as much as he is. as "rare" as pass rushers are.

Actually, Ware-money is $40mil guaranteed. :)

It would be an $80million deal. Franchise QBs have been getting in the $90-100mil range and there are people here thinking, 'oh, yeah give him whatever he wants!! he's irreplaceable' :rolleyes:


If he is willing to do $15SB-25Mil guaranteed... well sure, of course sign him, but the contract he is rumored to want is OBSCENE and he simply isn't THAT good/valuable. Very good player, love him on the team, but let's get real here.. he doesn't play the run well, outstanding pass rusher. He is what he is and he is NOT Demarcus Ware.

arapaho2
02-01-2010, 06:04 PM
I wouldn't. Porter is six years older than Dumervil and his production is about the same as that of Dumervil.


porter was actually alot worse then doom this year

arapaho2
02-01-2010, 06:05 PM
Actually, Ware-money is $40mil guaranteed. :)

It would be an $80million deal. Franchise QBs have been getting in the $90-100mil range and there are people here thinking, 'oh, yeah give him whatever he wants!! he's irreplaceable' :rolleyes:


If he is willing to do $15SB-25Mil guaranteed... well sure, of course sign him, but the contract he is rumored to want is OBSCENE and he simply isn't THAT good/valuable. Very good player, love him on the team, but let's get real here.. he doesn't play the run well, outstanding pass rusher. He is what he is and he is NOT Demarcus Ware.

people keep sayingg that...as of yet i have seen not one single shred of proof that is anywhere near truth

JDL
02-01-2010, 06:07 PM
weird though how ware has no weakness...not a liability..good against the run..all around...and doom isnt:coffee:

it must be that additional 3 solo tackles that put him over the edge

Uhhh FOR THE 1000th!!!!! TIME Ware had back and shoulder injuries this year that limited his production....

He earned that contract with 71, 84, and 84 tackles to go with 45.5 sacks over those 3 seasons (in other words, a complete player)... Elvis Dumervil has racked up 39, 24, 49 ... yeah dude... you win... you're brilliant. :rolleyes: :lol:

JDL
02-01-2010, 06:09 PM
people keep sayingg that...as of yet i have seen not one single shred of proof that is anywhere near truth

DPO article a few weeks ago... RUMORED... so EVERYONE has basically said IF ... THAT"S IFFFFFFF he wants that... then he has to go... it is very simple... and you are the one arguing he is as good as Ware ... no? lol

I love Doom... but he isn't Ware and doesn't deserve that kind of contract... period.

arapaho2
02-01-2010, 06:42 PM
Uhhh FOR THE 1000th!!!!! TIME Ware had back and shoulder injuries this year that limited his production....

He earned that contract with 71, 84, and 84 tackles to go with 45.5 sacks over those 3 seasons (in other words, a complete player)... Elvis Dumervil has racked up 39, 24, 49 ... yeah dude... you win... you're brilliant. :rolleyes: :lol:


doom racked up tackes in three differant systems..playing a 3rd down de..a full time DE..a OLB...for jim bates, bob slowick mid season , and bob slowick dc..three totaly differant schemes, differant duties,


thers kinda a differance there between denver with their non exixtant front and the cowboys solid wall..id say

but hey your the brilliant one

arapaho2
02-01-2010, 06:50 PM
DPO article a few weeks ago... RUMORED... so EVERYONE has basically said IF ... THAT"S IFFFFFFF he wants that... then he has to go... it is very simple... and you are the one arguing he is as good as Ware ... no? lol

I love Doom... but he isn't Ware and doesn't deserve that kind of contract... period.

rumors are the fuel for old ladies tounges:listen:


again where have i said he's as good as ware...intellect isnt a strong point with you is it

i only posted his stats this past year...and it was wares 20 sacks that got the contract

i would look at wares first three years as a 3-4 olbr and then look at dooms first year as a 3-4 olb ...kinda isnt proving anything to look at wares best years ina position he's comfertable with ..with alot of dline help...to dooms first year ina new position and say doom isnt worth it

but hey its your world we just live in it

Ravage!!!
02-01-2010, 07:05 PM
Doom isn't the player that Ware is. He's a liability against the run.

dogfish
02-01-2010, 07:39 PM
Doom isn't the player that Ware is. He's a liability against the run.

a lot of people think ware is the best defensive player in the league, too. . .

so if every player who doesn't measure up to ware isn't worth keeping, we're going to have a mighty small defensive roster. . .


and as for this whole "he wants DWare money" thing, it's nothing beyond pure speculation with no evidence whatsoever to substantiate the claim. . . it's no better than gossip and should be given zero credibility. . . .

of course, it's also a forgone conclusion that he is going to want a substantial pay raise-- that typically happens when you're an all-pro working for a 4th rounder's salary. . . if we don't want to pay him what he's worth, we can let somebody else shell out for a guy who's as good a pass rusher as anyone in the league, proven effective in multiple fronts with little talent around him, and durable and hard-working. . . smart personnel execs will line up to pay a guy like elvis-- the fact that parcells reportedly wants him should tell people what his worth is to those who really know the game. . .

but yea, we can always just go back to having no pass rush-- you can do that for real cheap. . .

maybe jarvis moss is ready to step up. . . .

HORSEPOWER 56
02-01-2010, 08:01 PM
Once again, WHO THE HELL REALLY CARES HOW MUCH PLAYERS COST AND WHY???????

It's not coming out of your pocket! If the Broncos want him back, they'll spend the money. If they don't they won't. It's that simple!

The Panthers are rumored to not want to re-sign Julius Peppers because of his high price. If we aren't willing to pay Doom, would we be willing to drop Ware/Haynesworth type money on Peppers?

Peppers is a freak who can rush the passer and play the run. He is athletic enough to stand up in a 3-4 OLB role or even play the 5 technique DE on passing downs. He can also, of course, be a down 4-3 DE in the nickel or dime package. Would you guys pay for his services?

If we let Dumervil go because we're unwilling to pay him, who do we replace him with? Draft another rookie pass-rushing LB who may or may not turn out okay? Get in a bidding war for a FA like Peppers or try to trade for a guy like Adalius Thomas?

Either way, we're going to:

a) spend a lot of money on a FA for the same production - or -
b) spend draft pick(s) that we should be using on areas of need like the D-line on another OLB pass rusher when we just let one walk

Those are the options - well we could just let Doom walk and not try to replace him. That would be SUPER-AWESOME seeing as how he alone had more sacks and QB pressures than the rest of the team COMBINED.

I'd rather cut Jarvis Moss and DJ "worthless ILB in the 3-4" Williams (nothing he did this year couldn't have been done by Woodyard) and get their big-money contracts off the books to pay Dumervil then to just let Dumervil walk (even for draft picks).

TXBRONC
02-01-2010, 10:50 PM
a lot of people think ware is the best defensive player in the league, too. . .

so if every player who doesn't measure up to ware isn't worth keeping, we're going to have a mighty small defensive roster. . .


and as for this whole "he wants DWare money" thing, it's nothing beyond pure speculation with no evidence whatsoever to substantiate the claim. . . it's no better than gossip and should be given zero credibility. . . .

of course, it's also a forgone conclusion that he is going to want a substantial pay raise-- that typically happens when you're an all-pro working for a 4th rounder's salary. . . if we don't want to pay him what he's worth, we can let somebody else shell out for a guy who's as good a pass rusher as anyone in the league, proven effective in multiple fronts with little talent around him, and durable and hard-working. . . smart personnel execs will line up to pay a guy like elvis-- the fact that parcells reportedly wants him should tell people what his worth is to those who really know the game. . .

but yea, we can always just go back to having no pass rush-- you can do that for real cheap. . .

maybe jarvis moss is ready to step up. . . .

According to some people Dumervil is a greedy selfish person if he wants a substantial raise. He suppose to give the Broncos a hometown discount.

Now back in reality, Dumervil does deserve a substatial raise and if Denver wont give it him there will be teams willing to paying well for his services.

TXBRONC
02-01-2010, 10:56 PM
Once again, WHO THE HELL REALLY CARES HOW MUCH PLAYERS COST AND WHY???????

It's not coming out of your pocket! If the Broncos want him back, they'll spend the money. If they don't they won't. It's that simple!

The Panthers are rumored to not want to re-sign Julius Peppers because of his high price. If we aren't willing to pay Doom, would we be willing to drop Ware/Haynesworth type money on Peppers?

Peppers is a freak who can rush the passer and play the run. He is athletic enough to stand up in a 3-4 OLB role or even play the 5 technique DE on passing downs. He can also, of course, be a down 4-3 DE in the nickel or dime package. Would you guys pay for his services?

If we let Dumervil go because we're unwilling to pay him, who do we replace him with? Draft another rookie pass-rushing LB who may or may not turn out okay? Get in a bidding war for a FA like Peppers or try to trade for a guy like Adalius Thomas?

Either way, we're going to:

a) spend a lot of money on a FA for the same production - or -
b) spend draft pick(s) that we should be using on areas of need like the D-line on another OLB pass rusher when we just let one walk

Those are the options - well we could just let Doom walk and not try to replace him. That would be SUPER-AWESOME seeing as how he alone had more sacks and QB pressures than the rest of the team COMBINED.

I'd rather cut Jarvis Moss and DJ "worthless ILB in the 3-4" Williams (nothing he did this year couldn't have been done by Woodyard) and get their big-money contracts off the books to pay Dumervil then to just let Dumervil walk (even for draft picks).

I agree with most of what you said except the slam on Williams. There aint no way in hell Woodyard would have been able to hold up for 16 games as an inside linebacker because he's way to small. I like the guy but that's not anywhere realistic to say the Woodyard would have done just a well.

rcsodak
02-01-2010, 11:34 PM
Coach McDaniels could be dumb if he decided to let him go. We love Dumervil and we want him to stay in Denver! Come on, Dumervil! Give us 20+ sacks in season 2010!!!!

For a 1 or a 1 and a 3? Hells bells....SELL!

He's not a franchise player, people. I love what they got out of him this year, buy did you notice the run yards teams got against the right side of the defense?

Or how he disappeared at times?

Lets get some picks for him...BM...TS, and buy an entirely new Dline!

rcsodak
02-01-2010, 11:36 PM
my whole issue is.....the boy wonder should have made every attempt to resign him...as important as he is to the defense...before the season ended.

he has never been a problem..he has never been anything but a model player and citizen..whether capped or uncapped..those are the type of players you want around..period

to even go into free agency without a deal at least on the table is incredibley stupid ..to sit back and wait to see what other teams offer and decide if we wanna match it..is another one of the boy wonders monumental mistakes

Remind me, again....


....which NFL team did you run?


:coffee:

rcsodak
02-01-2010, 11:39 PM
your idea is the same idealogy that allowed all the good d linemen walk out of town under shanny (pryce, Berry, heywood)...wait to see what the market brings and hope to GOD you can match it

a smart coach team signs it future stars before the value is jacked up by FA

Please enlighten us as to the sacks the aforementioned got after they left.

Maybe you should just list the number of GAMES they played....that'd more than likely be a higher number.

Berry - 40/6yrs (14.5 contract year, then single digits)
"Heywood"- (Hayward) 17.5/5yrs
Pryce - 26/4yrs (13 contract year, then......)

Fail.

rcsodak
02-02-2010, 12:00 AM
really?

doom........42 solo tackls....17 sacks....4 ff
j. allen......43 solo.............14.5..........5
d ware......45 solo.............11.............5
Mario w.....34....................9..............2
woodly......49...................13.............1
harrisen.....60...................10.............5
porter........34....................9............. 1

based off that...just what kind of money does he deserve


How many did he have during the early run? How many in the 2nd half?

rcsodak
02-02-2010, 12:12 AM
Every player wants to get paid. RARELY do you see a guy give up money so they can stay on one team. Usually, thats one that has already gotten paid BIG bucks in the past. Doom hasn't.

Even Wilfork, from the NE Patriots, the team that EVERYONE says is pure team oriented and will stay with the Patriots because they ARE the Patriots, said that he's not going to stay simply because they might have a shot at the title. He wants the most money.

Doom knows that he MUST cash in NOW.. while his value is at its highest. It may never be this high, and at the right time like it is right now..... ever again. He's going to want to get paid.

Even Kyle Orton, the boards "team player".. stated that EVERY player looks forward to that time when they are UFA. Because they want the money.

There is no reason to believe that Doom is going to play santa clause.

Show me a player that's played 6yrs under his rookie contract, without lamenting, and has been a Pro-Bowler on a SB winning team, and I'll show you someone that has the RIGHT to say enough is enough.

rcsodak
02-02-2010, 12:15 AM
thats my point...alot of really good player give the home team a discount..are willing to work with a team that treats them right

but we also know once the FA bidding wars start...the price goes up

we shoulda started the process along time ago before it gets outrageous

Exactly HOW MANY of the 200+ RFA's, THIS YEAR, had their contracts renegotiated during the season?

You don't have any basis for your argument, honestly.

Not with the uncertainty of the CBA, cap/no cap, especially.

:rolleyes:

rcsodak
02-02-2010, 12:22 AM
A problem I see with that is we don't any other proven pass rushers on the defense.

Didn't have one before Doom either.

:laugh:

rcsodak
02-02-2010, 12:26 AM
Why would you even bring up that I said Dumervil's 2009 season was a fluke? I never once said such thing. I just dont think hes worth 60 million dollars. I think players paid that type of money shouldnt have years where they are nowhere to be found, and he was an average player at best in 2008.(Slowick excuse is getting old)

This team has too many needs to dish out that type of money to one player.

Didn't seem to stop Peppers from getting paid. :coffee:

rcsodak
02-02-2010, 12:30 AM
Let's now talk about some of this weekend's headlines:

Is Dumervil on Miami's radar?
The biggest Dolphin-related story to come out of this weekend really relates back to the biggest story last week - Mike Nolan's hiring as defensive coordinator. With Nolan now in Miami, speculation is beginning about Miami's possible interest in Broncos outside linebacker Elvis Dumervil - who led the NFL in 2009 with 17 sacks.

Most of this speculation is stemming from a report by ESPN's Adam Schefter, who tweeted:

Mike Nolan brings 3-4 defense to Miami, along with knowledge of Broncos free agent LB Elvis Dumervil. Look for him to be on Miami's radar.

But Dumervil is scheduled to be a restricted free agent - meaning the Dolphins can't simply negotiate with him and sign him, if they were interested. Instead, they would have to work something out with the Broncos as well. I'd imagine that Denver will at least use the first round tender on Dumervil ($2.4 million) and could even use the first-and-third round tender offer ($3.1 million).



So if the Dolphins were interested, you'd have to expect the Dolphins to try working out a trade with Denver rather than simply handing over at least a first round pick. And in all honesty, I wouldn't even think about giving up the #12 overall pick for Dumervil. Why? The guy is only 5'11 and is a one trick pony. Yes - he can rush the passer. But he gets blocked into next week when teams run at him. He flat out stinks against the run. In fact, of all 3-4 OLBs to play at least 25% of their team's defensive snaps, ProFootballFocus rated Dumervil as the 2nd worst run defender in the league.

Besides, don't the Dolphins already have a one trick pass-rushing pony named Cameron Wake? Why not let him develop? Let's see what Nolan and his scheme can do for him.

That SIMPLY can't be true.....



.....cuz arapahoe says so. :rolleyes:

rcsodak
02-02-2010, 12:40 AM
Uh oh....

....I'm gonna get scolded by the "multi-quote" police....


:tsk:

KCL
02-02-2010, 12:54 AM
Show me a player that's played 6yrs under his rookie contract, without lamenting, and has been a Pro-Bowler on a SB winning team, and I'll show you someone that has the RIGHT to say enough is enough.



Hey I know someone like that....:lol:

:couch:

arapaho2
02-02-2010, 12:23 PM
That SIMPLY can't be true.....



.....cuz arapahoe says so. :rolleyes:


thanks...i knew your old hate would follow...:lol:.....:coffee:

T.K.O.
02-02-2010, 01:08 PM
i like doom and think we should try our best to keep him,but not at the expense of being unable to sign quality guys at other key positions.
if he will play for a reasonable sum...hell yeah
if he wants a haynesworth type deal.....not gonna happen.
i just hope al davis doesnt offer him 100+ mil cuz then he'll be all over orton like stank on.....twice a year;)

EMB6903
02-02-2010, 02:23 PM
where did i say that??? oh i get it your minds made up so your sticking your head in the sand...got it

YOU! Youre saying that. You might not have said it straight up, but youre the one who brought up "How did signing Ware midseason work out for Dallas?" along with comparing the two's stats... So obviously youre thinking there is a simular comparison.

dunk7
02-02-2010, 03:23 PM
Remind me, again....


....which NFL team did you run?


:coffee:

God forbid you express an opinion on here. I guess we should all just assume perfection with our wonderful Coach.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-02-2010, 03:34 PM
The bottom line fact remains in all of this that Dumervil is our only reliable pass rusher.

If we allow him to leave via FA, yes I understand we'll be compensated somehow (probably a draft pick or two), then who becomes "that guy" on our defense?

We aren't the Pittsburgh Steelers where they could trade away Harrison and still have Woodley. We aren't the NYG where we could lose Umeniora and still have Tuck and Kiwanuka. We have nobody else right now. I have very little faith that Robert Ayers will ever be that guy. He never has been. He might turn out to be a solid, balanced OLB but he'll never be that dominant pass rushing threat from the edge.

There are many guys who correctly state that Dumervil isn't a "complete" player in that he struggles vs the run, but right now, we just don't have another option unless we're willing to give some other FA an ass ton of cash or take a HUGE gamble on another high-round rookie draft pick. We just dropped a 1st and 2nd rounder on 2 "pass rushers" one of which is no longer a Bronco (Crowder) and the other can't earn a spot (Moss). Do we really want to blow another pick on this postion and hope it doesn't turn out the same?

Sometimes, you just have to be content with what you have and pay the good players you've got. It's a crap shoot out there both in FA and the draft and we just can't afford (well, McDaniels can't) to completely rebuild this team on both sides of the ball.

CoachChaz
02-02-2010, 03:39 PM
The bottom line fact remains in all of this that Dumervil is our only reliable pass rusher.

If we allow him to leave via FA, yes I understand we'll be compensated somehow (probably a draft pick or two), then who becomes "that guy" on our defense?

We aren't the Pittsburgh Steelers where they could trade away Harrison and still have Woodley. We aren't the NYG where we could lose Umeniora and still have Tuck and Kiwanuka. We have nobody else right now. I have very little faith that Robert Ayers will ever be that guy. He never has been. He might turn out to be a solid, balanced OLB but he'll never be that dominant pass rushing threat from the edge.

There are many guys who correctly state that Dumervil isn't a "complete" player in that he struggles vs the run, but right now, we just don't have another option unless we're willing to give some other FA an ass ton of cash or take a HUGE gamble on another high-round rookie draft pick. We just dropped a 1st and 2nd rounder on 2 "pass rushers" one of which is no longer a Bronco (Crowder) and the other can't earn a spot (Moss). Do we really want to blow another pick on this postion and hope it doesn't turn out the same?

Sometimes, you just have to be content with what you have and pay the good players you've got. It's a crap shoot out there both in FA and the draft and we just can't afford (well, McDaniels can't) to completely rebuild this team on both sides of the ball.

What you say makes sense, but let's look at it this way. Did the amount of big runs gained to his side exceed the amount of sacks he accumulated? I dont know the number or if it did, but I'm guessing people are trying to see if having 17 sacks is worth giving up 200 yards rushing. The proverbial rock and a hard place.

As far as Ayers goes...I think he'll be fine. he reminds me of Anthony Spencer in a way. Dallas was about to give up on him because he always seemed to be just a step slow or a step shirt. Then finally...he caught up to ti and played awesome. I think Ayers will be the same way, once everything becomes 2nd nature for him.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-02-2010, 03:53 PM
What you say makes sense, but let's look at it this way. Did the amount of big runs gained to his side exceed the amount of sacks he accumulated? I dont know the number or if it did, but I'm guessing people are trying to see if having 17 sacks is worth giving up 200 yards rushing. The proverbial rock and a hard place.

As far as Ayers goes...I think he'll be fine. he reminds me of Anthony Spencer in a way. Dallas was about to give up on him because he always seemed to be just a step slow or a step shirt. Then finally...he caught up to ti and played awesome. I think Ayers will be the same way, once everything becomes 2nd nature for him.

I think the same could be said for Dumervil. He's playing OLB now and it isn't his job to really "anchor vs the run" anymore like when he was a DE. Now, he's a pursuit guy. No Elvis probably isn't the next Lawrence Taylor who could do it all, but he's easily as good an edge rusher as Harrison, Ware or even a 4-3 guy like Freeney (who also can't anchor vs the run for shit but is being paid because he does pressure the QB).

There are options out there, but right now, I just can't see a better option out there. Fans tend to get all excited about the thought of more draft picks for players but really, how often do those turn out like you thought they would? The only reason that NFL teams get to draft 7 new players every year along with FAs and UDFAs is because the flush valve is always cycling and sending more turd players that didn't pan out back out to sea. The NFL doesn't bring in 224+ new players a year because that many retire or receive career ending injuries. It's because the vast majority of the players drafted/signed to contracts just plain don't cut it.

dogfish
02-02-2010, 04:57 PM
The bottom line fact remains in all of this that Dumervil is our only reliable pass rusher.

If we allow him to leave via FA, yes I understand we'll be compensated somehow (probably a draft pick or two), then who becomes "that guy" on our defense?

We aren't the Pittsburgh Steelers where they could trade away Harrison and still have Woodley. We aren't the NYG where we could lose Umeniora and still have Tuck and Kiwanuka. We have nobody else right now. I have very little faith that Robert Ayers will ever be that guy. He never has been. He might turn out to be a solid, balanced OLB but he'll never be that dominant pass rushing threat from the edge.

There are many guys who correctly state that Dumervil isn't a "complete" player in that he struggles vs the run, but right now, we just don't have another option unless we're willing to give some other FA an ass ton of cash or take a HUGE gamble on another high-round rookie draft pick. We just dropped a 1st and 2nd rounder on 2 "pass rushers" one of which is no longer a Bronco (Crowder) and the other can't earn a spot (Moss). Do we really want to blow another pick on this postion and hope it doesn't turn out the same?

Sometimes, you just have to be content with what you have and pay the good players you've got. It's a crap shoot out there both in FA and the draft and we just can't afford (well, McDaniels can't) to completely rebuild this team on both sides of the ball.

absolutely, 100% agree with you. . . i quite frankly could care less if the guy's a subpar run defender at this point-- he's our ONLY pass rusher, and sometimes you have to sacrifice in one area because no team fields 22 all-stars who can dominate in every area. . . if we trade in doom for a big ugly OLB who can stop the run but doesn't rush the passer any better than the rest of our LBs, we're going to have twenty sacks and no pressure next year, and go back to sucking balls on defense. . .

chris johnson isn't a tough inside/goal line runner, adrian peterson fumbles a lot, peyton manning can't scramble. . . pat williams and vince wilfork aren't pass rushers. . . desean jackson doesn't make many catches over the middle. . . etc etc. . . but everybody wants those guys on their team, because they're brilliant at what they do well. . . they're impact players. . .

doom was an impact player for us this year, and he's the only young building block we have on defense. . . he's also the only competent pass rusher we've signed, drafted or developed in the last decade, and if we let him walk we deserve it if we go another ten years without finding a comparable guy. . .

Cugel
02-02-2010, 07:38 PM
and again...doom had 43 solo tackles...ware 45..compare the numbers ..doom was better then a guy getting 74 million dollars

it would only be smart to offer something early and start from there...i watched shanny decide to sit and see what the FA price would be before...never quit worked out in our favor

I remember Shanahan saying "we were surprised" at how much $ teams were willing to offer Bert Berry and Reggie Hayward. They actually thought they could refuse to negotiate during the season -- because Shanahan had to have the last word on everything including player negotiations and he was rather busy during the season acting as coach -- and then let the player "test the waters and see what sort of interest was there."

Well, he let Hayward and Berry "test the waters" and surprise, surprise! there was a LOT of interest there.

Neither of those guys is remotely the pass rusher Dumervil is.

He'll get totally ludicrous money unless the current CBA situation has teams holding back. But, probably at least ONE team would like the best pass-rusher in the NFL on their team next season and will offer him Tyson Jackson type money to do it:
8/7/2009: Signed a five-year, $57 million contract with $31 million guaranteed.

That's for a ROOKIE who's done exactly NOTHING in the NFL except be drafted in the top 10. Dumervil is a proven commodity now. He probably is worth MORE than $60 million with at least $35 million guaranteed.

Two CERTAIN Predictions:

#1 -- Some team will pay Dumervil a vast sum. The Broncos won't be able to match.

#2 --- Some idiot Broncos fans will say "good riddance! He's not worth that much!"

It certainly looks like the defense will be WORSE next year if they lose Dumervil. You don't lose the NFL sack leader and not have it affect you!

With McDaniels job depending on how the team does this season you'd think he would actually want to keep his best players. Except apparently that's not how he thinks. :coffee:

I would not be surprised at all to see Sheffler, Marshall AND Dumervil all go via FA, Denver sign Kyle Orton to a monster contract -- and then after McDaniels is fired in late January 2011 Denver will be stuck with paying Orton Matt Cassel type money:
six-year, $63 million contract. The deal includes $28 million guaranteed and $40.5 million in the first three seasons.

KC fans are NOT happy at all that Cassel is gouging the team for that kind of money and Denver fans probably won't be particularly happy in 2011 with Orton getting a monster contract and sitting on the bench or the new Broncos management trying to deal him to the Lions or something. :coffee:

powderaddict
02-02-2010, 08:10 PM
Do we know for a fact that the Broncos have made no attempts at all to work on an extension?

Is it possible that Dumervil wants to force Denver's hand, and get a huge payday? Do we know for a fact that he agreed to a "home team" discount if an extension would be offered mid-season?

Seems to me to be business as usual in the NFL :shrug:

Lonestar
02-02-2010, 08:31 PM
Do we know for a fact that the Broncos have made no attempts at all to work on an extension?

Is it possible that Dumervil wants to force Denver's hand, and get a huge payday? Do we know for a fact that he agreed to a "home team" discount if an extension would be offered mid-season?

Seems to me to be business as usual in the NFL :shrug:

NO body knows Squat ..... anyone saying they do is full of SHAT.

We all know that mike screwed the pooch on heyward and the other guy NOT getting them locked up BEFORE the season started.

We ALL know that signing Doom to a huge contract prior to the season would have been double dumb, coming off a 5 sack lousy season last year and then changing the Defense and his position with NO IDEA what he was going to do.

Now we suffer the Money or get the first and third for him IF we decide not to match.

Say la vie.

Nickademus
02-03-2010, 12:01 AM
thats my point...alot of really good player give the home team a discount..are willing to work with a team that treats them right

but we also know once the FA bidding wars start...the price goes up

we shoulda started the process along time ago before it gets outrageous

So let me get this strait you wanted to extend a guy who just had his worst season, ( I know he was injured) was moving to a new possition, and has shown he isnt good against the run before the season started? Maybe if shanny was here this happens but with a new coaching staff and basically a new FO this has to be a joke. maybe we should extend moreno's deal now so that if he goes all TD on us we will have him locked up forever. I doubt anyone wants doom to leave but if we get a first and third for him I will not complain. If Doom were even half the run defender as some of the guys you are compairing him to I wouldnt be so ready to see him go, but he is a pass rusher and that seems to be it, a very good pass rusher but none the less only a pass rusher. I agree that if we had some help on the D-line this would help to minimize Dooms weakness against the run but if we give him the money it has been speculated that he wants how can we afford a decent line to do that?

TXBRONC
02-03-2010, 09:36 AM
absolutely, 100% agree with you. . . i quite frankly could care less if the guy's a subpar run defender at this point-- he's our ONLY pass rusher, and sometimes you have to sacrifice in one area because no team fields 22 all-stars who can dominate in every area. . . if we trade in doom for a big ugly OLB who can stop the run but doesn't rush the passer any better than the rest of our LBs, we're going to have twenty sacks and no pressure next year, and go back to sucking balls on defense. . .

chris johnson isn't a tough inside/goal line runner, adrian peterson fumbles a lot, peyton manning can't scramble. . . pat williams and vince wilfork aren't pass rushers. . . desean jackson doesn't make many catches over the middle. . . etc etc. . . but everybody wants those guys on their team, because they're brilliant at what they do well. . . they're impact players. . .

doom was an impact player for us this year, and he's the only young building block we have on defense. . . he's also the only competent pass rusher we've signed, drafted or developed in the last decade, and if we let him walk we deserve it if we go another ten years without finding a comparable guy. . .

Rather than letting Dumervil walk away we would better trying to find guys like Pat Williams and Vince Wilfork who take up lots of space and blockers. If we do that I think will see Dumervil's improve against the run.

CoachChaz
02-03-2010, 09:48 AM
I'd like to keep Doom, but...if they can find a way to lose a 17 sack guy and replace him with a 10 sack guy (Ayers, FA, etc) that wont allow 15 yard runs off the edge on a regular basis...I'm all for it

SOCALORADO.
02-03-2010, 10:33 AM
I'd like to keep Doom, but...if they can find a way to lose a 17 sack guy and replace him with a 10 sack guy (Ayers, FA, etc) that wont allow 15 yard runs off the edge on a regular basis...I'm all for it

Yeah.....i guess. Why not just re-sign Doom. His position is just so damn hard to replace in the 34, man.
Also, what about Ayers competeing with Haggan?

CoachChaz
02-03-2010, 10:41 AM
Yeah.....i guess. Why not just re-sign Doom. His position is just so damn hard to replace in the 34, man.
Also, what about Ayers competeing with Haggan?

It's all assumption. I really like the way Ayers progressed last year and I expect him to be even better. Having an additional threat on the other side makes it less imprtant for Doom to notch 15 sacks or so every season. Granted...Ayers could turn out to be a huge bust, but if it works out, then it's just better for the defense. But it still doesnt make Doom any better against the run. It's like having a receiver that can only run 9 routes (Lelie). Eventually they get exposed and it hurts the team

Biz1
02-03-2010, 10:45 AM
Yeah.....i guess. Why not just re-sign Doom. His position is just so damn hard to replace in the 34, man.
Also, what about Ayers competeing with Haggan?

With no salary caps in place, why can't Denver simply price him right out of the market?.

SOCALORADO.
02-03-2010, 11:00 AM
With no salary caps in place, why can't Denver simply price him right out of the market?.

I am not sure they cant. Arent there stipulations for each respective position? I mean i guess the broncos could just say,
"Yeah, we want 3 1st rounders for Doom",
and then there would be no takers, however that wouldnt go over really well with Doom or his agent, who most likely represents other players.
He does deserve his $$.

Cugel
02-03-2010, 11:28 AM
Do we know for a fact that the Broncos have made no attempts at all to work on an extension?

Is it possible that Dumervil wants to force Denver's hand, and get a huge payday? Do we know for a fact that he agreed to a "home team" discount if an extension would be offered mid-season?

Seems to me to be business as usual in the NFL :shrug:

NFL reality 101:

1. No player contracts are guaranteed.
2. Injuries are a fact of life.
3. Players who are injured entering FA lose a tremendous amount of money and if there is a question about whether they are seriously hurt, they can lose most of their bargaining position.
4. Dumervil had NEVER had a season that would justify the expectation that he could emerge as an NFL star.

Thus there is incentive for BOTH sides to do a new contract PRIOR to the 2009 season. Dumervil gets security if he's hurt or simply doesn't perform. The team takes a risk on signing him to a long-term contract, but then if he succeeds they keep a player who would otherwise get a MASSIVE windfall in FA.

This sort of deal is done virtually every time a player re-signs with his own team rather than permitting him to play out his contract.

Both sides give up something.

Obviously this requires the team to evaluate how good they think the player is BEFORE he has a HUGE season, but that's what coaches and GMs are for. Talent evaluation is their job. They ought to know better than anybody exactly what kind of player they have and if he's worth the money.

Identifying and tying up key players in long-term contracts is exactly how the Patriots have been able to stay on top of the league for nearly 10 years (despite the NFL being designed to create "parity" by giving the worst teams the best draft picks).

There were NO reports about serious negotiations between Doom & the Broncos before the season. DURING the season is probably too late. The team seems (at best) to be counting on the fact that Doom will be a restricted FA instead of un-restricted because of the expiration of the CBA.

But, forcing a player to stay on a team and not paying him what he deserves NEVER ends well for the team. They can't keep offering him one-year franchise contracts or count on matching other teams' offer-sheets. That's just a BAD way to do business and creates bad blood. Forcing a player to play for you simply means he'll find a way off the team in short order -- usually the next season.

Exhibit A: Brandon Marshall. Doom hasn't acted out like Marshall, but then he's not a WR! WRs are always prima-donnas in this league if you haven't noticed the Broncos are now losing one of the top 5 WRs in the NFL.

Homers can blather about how he's not that great -- but watch him in the Pro-bowl for the next 5 years -- then talk. :coffee:

Cugel
02-03-2010, 11:37 AM
I am not sure they cant. Arent there stipulations for each respective position? I mean i guess the broncos could just say,
"Yeah, we want 3 1st rounders for Doom",
and then there would be no takers, however that wouldnt go over really well with Doom or his agent, who most likely represents other players.
He does deserve his $$.

Because of the expiration of the CBA those players like Marshall and Doom who would be unrestricted FAs, now are "restricted." The Broncos must offer Doom a contract for the average salary of the top 10 players at that position (expensive).

If Doom refuses to sign the Broncos contract any team signing him to an offer sheet has to surrender draft picks. What picks is determined by whether the team gives the player a 1st round tender or not.
If Doom signs with another team the Broncos have the right to keep him by matching the other team's contract.

This leads to intensive warfare if the other team wants to prevent the Broncos from keeping Doom. They sign him to a "poison pill" contract that is designed to make it very hard on the Broncos to match. You saw the Vikings steal OL Hutchinson from the Seahawks by this method. Shanahan tried to steal Raiders WR Brown the same way and Al Davis bitched about it for years afterward (having to pay through the nose to match the Broncos offer).

If no team is willing to sign him and surrender their first and third picks for instance Doom could try and play hard-ball and refuse to sign the Broncos contract and sit out the season and re-enter as an UN-restricted FA in 2011. That rarely works for the player though and there may be NO 2011 season because of the threatened owners lockout of the players.

In that case, Doom would miss TWO full NFL seasons and his value would be much less. I doubt he can afford to sit out. But, if Doom feels he's being screwed by the team it will create the same bad blood as with Marshall and that never leads to anything good for the team as we're seeing with Marshall.

arapaho2
02-03-2010, 11:52 AM
So let me get this strait you wanted to extend a guy who just had his worst season, ( I know he was injured) was moving to a new possition, and has shown he isnt good against the run before the season started? Maybe if shanny was here this happens but with a new coaching staff and basically a new FO this has to be a joke. maybe we should extend moreno's deal now so that if he goes all TD on us we will have him locked up forever. I doubt anyone wants doom to leave but if we get a first and third for him I will not complain. If Doom were even half the run defender as some of the guys you are compairing him to I wouldnt be so ready to see him go, but he is a pass rusher and that seems to be it, a very good pass rusher but none the less only a pass rusher. I agree that if we had some help on the D-line this would help to minimize Dooms weakness against the run but if we give him the money it has been speculated that he wants how can we afford a decent line to do that?


if you understand why he and other bronco players on defense had bad years..yes then we would have been wise to start talks...

08 was his worst year..he also had no line help, a suck ass scheme...you remember it right?..rush wide...Dts not asked to penetrate instead get pushed back into the linebackers..qb steps up in pocket and shreds us...teams shredded us in the middle of the line

your stupidity has no bounds...extending promising pass rusher on his last year of a rookie contract..or at least starting the negotiations during the season..is a hell of a lot differant then extending a rb who didnt break a 100 yards once and didnt crack a 1000 for the season after his rookie yr....to even compare the two leaves me baffled at your ability to even type

gee how can we afford to sign doom and a dline??????:confused:

i dunno..how are we gonna sign all these day one picks were getting from losing doom, marshall and scheff...if we cant sign doom and a dline then we got no business looking for 1st rd picks

how did we afford to cut a very cheap mike leach...our long time LS who never missed a snap.....so we can pay lonnie paxton 1.6 mill in 09??

was knowshon worth 5 mill last season??....its ludicrious to say he was worth that amount..(it includes his bonus) for his 3.8 ypc ar 59 yards per game...yet say we cant afford doom?

Lonestar
02-03-2010, 11:55 AM
I am not sure they cant. Arent there stipulations for each respective position? I mean i guess the broncos could just say,
"Yeah, we want 3 1st rounders for Doom",
and then there would be no takers, however that wouldnt go over really well with Doom or his agent, who most likely represents other players.
He does deserve his $$.

Yes he deserves a raise. But with the lack of Young talent OR depth at some poistions, it behooves as a TEAM/Business to improve as Best we can without breaking the bank.
How can you justify selling the farm on a one trick pony that very well have another injury plagued year like last year 5 sacks.

Does anone really believe he will consistently get 15+ sacks a year without more help on the DL line.

Or that since he is a liability on the run they will not just run toward his side neutrializing him. Eventually OC will figure out a way to slow him down.

I like the kid and think he should get paid.

Not worth a mega contract for this team his real value is as a RFA a first and a Third.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

arapaho2
02-03-2010, 11:58 AM
NFL reality 101:

1. No player contracts are guaranteed.
2. Injuries are a fact of life.
3. Players who are injured entering FA lose a tremendous amount of money and if there is a question about whether they are seriously hurt, they can lose most of their bargaining position.
4. Dumervil had NEVER had a season that would justify the expectation that he could emerge as an NFL star.

Thus there is incentive for BOTH sides to do a new contract PRIOR to the 2009 season. Dumervil gets security if he's hurt or simply doesn't perform. The team takes a risk on signing him to a long-term contract, but then if he succeeds they keep a player who would otherwise get a MASSIVE windfall in FA.

This sort of deal is done virtually every time a player re-signs with his own team rather than permitting him to play out his contract.

Both sides give up something.

Obviously this requires the team to evaluate how good they think the player is BEFORE he has a HUGE season, but that's what coaches and GMs are for. Talent evaluation is their job. They ought to know better than anybody exactly what kind of player they have and if he's worth the money.

Identifying and tying up key players in long-term contracts is exactly how the Patriots have been able to stay on top of the league for nearly 10 years (despite the NFL being designed to create "parity" by giving the worst teams the best draft picks).

There were NO reports about serious negotiations between Doom & the Broncos before the season. DURING the season is probably too late. The team seems (at best) to be counting on the fact that Doom will be a restricted FA instead of un-restricted because of the expiration of the CBA.

But, forcing a player to stay on a team and not paying him what he deserves NEVER ends well for the team. They can't keep offering him one-year franchise contracts or count on matching other teams' offer-sheets. That's just a BAD way to do business and creates bad blood. Forcing a player to play for you simply means he'll find a way off the team in short order -- usually the next season.

Exhibit A: Brandon Marshall. Doom hasn't acted out like Marshall, but then he's not a WR! WRs are always prima-donnas in this league if you haven't noticed the Broncos are now losing one of the top 5 WRs in the NFL.

Homers can blather about how he's not that great -- but watch him in the Pro-bowl for the next 5 years -- then talk. :coffee:
:beer:
thats all i been trying to say.....you of course said it better

some people dont get it

Biz1
02-03-2010, 12:14 PM
Because of the expiration of the CBA those players like Marshall and Doom who would be unrestricted FAs, now are "restricted." The Broncos must offer Doom a contract for the average salary of the top 10 players at that position (expensive).

If Doom refuses to sign the Broncos contract any team signing him to an offer sheet has to surrender draft picks. What picks is determined by whether the team gives the player a 1st round tender or not.
If Doom signs with another team the Broncos have the right to keep him by matching the other team's contract.

This leads to intensive warfare if the other team wants to prevent the Broncos from keeping Doom. They sign him to a "poison pill" contract that is designed to make it very hard on the Broncos to match. You saw the Vikings steal OL Hutchinson from the Seahawks by this method. Shanahan tried to steal Raiders WR Brown the same way and Al Davis bitched about it for years afterward (having to pay through the nose to match the Broncos offer).

If no team is willing to sign him and surrender their first and third picks for instance Doom could try and play hard-ball and refuse to sign the Broncos contract and sit out the season and re-enter as an UN-restricted FA in 2011. That rarely works for the player though and there may be NO 2011 season because of the threatened owners lockout of the players.

In that case, Doom would miss TWO full NFL seasons and his value would be much less. I doubt he can afford to sit out. But, if Doom feels he's being screwed by the team it will create the same bad blood as with Marshall and that never leads to anything good for the team as we're seeing with Marshall.

TY for posting this

Denver Native (Carol)
02-03-2010, 01:06 PM
I thought it would be appropriate to post this here, as it may have to do with contracts:

Yesterday, my sister called the Broncos' Ticket Office to see when the ticket renewal would be mailed out, and also if the price would remain the same as last year.

The lady she spoke with said:

"The tickets will be mailed out next week; however, at this time, we do not know if the price will remain the same - that is yet to be determined"

I thought it was VERY strange that the ticket renewal will be mailed out next week - BUT IT HAS NOT YET BEEN DETERMINED IF THE PRICE WILL BE THE SAME, OR BE INCREASED!!!!!!!

Could this be because some contracts are now being negotiated??????

Thoughts

T.K.O.
02-03-2010, 01:34 PM
it also would have been very difficult to "evaluate" how many players would adapt to entirely new defensive and offensive systems.that could well have been a factor in the broncos not working out deals before the season.
that and the fact that no team knew wether or not a new cba would be reached during the season or shortly after has had an impact on alot of teams

arapaho2
02-03-2010, 01:37 PM
I thought it would be appropriate to post this here, as it may have to do with contracts:

Yesterday, my sister called the Broncos' Ticket Office to see when the ticket renewal would be mailed out, and also if the price would remain the same as last year.

The lady she spoke with said:

"The tickets will be mailed out next week; however, at this time, we do not know if the price will remain the same - that is yet to be determined"

I thought it was VERY strange that the ticket renewal will be mailed out next week - BUT IT HAS NOT YET BEEN DETERMINED IF THE PRICE WILL BE THE SAME, OR BE INCREASED!!!!!!!

Could this be because some contracts are now being negotiated??????

Thoughts


doubt it...more of a economy thing i'd bet...can fans afford to pay more...can the stadium and owner afford to stay the same

but bowlen is under the current cap and im sure he has the money to pay contracts...

Denver Native (Carol)
02-03-2010, 01:49 PM
doubt it...more of a economy thing i'd bet...can fans afford to pay more...can the stadium and owner afford to stay the same

but bowlen is under the current cap and im sure he has the money to pay contracts...

If it's more of an economy thing, then the only determination would be - keep the price the same, or lower the price. Not sure if any NFL team has ever lowered prices.

Lonestar
02-03-2010, 02:08 PM
Because of the expiration of the CBA those players like Marshall and Doom who would be unrestricted FAs, now are "restricted." The Broncos must offer Doom a contract for the average salary of the top 10 players at that position (expensive).

If Doom refuses to sign the Broncos contract any team signing him to an offer sheet has to surrender draft picks. What picks is determined by whether the team gives the player a 1st round tender or not.
If Doom signs with another team the Broncos have the right to keep him by matching the other team's contract.

This leads to intensive warfare if the other team wants to prevent the Broncos from keeping Doom. They sign him to a "poison pill" contract that is designed to make it very hard on the Broncos to match. You saw the Vikings steal OL Hutchinson from the Seahawks by this method. Shanahan tried to steal Raiders WR Brown the same way and Al Davis bitched about it for years afterward (having to pay through the nose to match the Broncos offer).

If no team is willing to sign him and surrender their first and third picks for instance Doom could try and play hard-ball and refuse to sign the Broncos contract and sit out the season and re-enter as an UN-restricted FA in 2011. That rarely works for the player though and there may be NO 2011 season because of the threatened owners lockout of the players.

In that case, Doom would miss TWO full NFL seasons and his value would be much less. I doubt he can afford to sit out. But, if Doom feels he's being screwed by the team it will create the same bad blood as with Marshall and that never leads to anything good for the team as we're seeing with Marshall.

I believe that is incorrect. AS I understand it has RFA his salary goes up 50% over what he made this past year. I could have gotten bad info but remember seeing that in several different post from NON member postings.

It came from Espn/DP/SI articles.

If that is true from a business point of view we let him test the market after tendering him as a High tender that means a first and a third from the team that tenders him an offer sheet. If we want to match it we can if not we get their first and third.

That is how I understand RFA. since those teams that were in the final 8 can't sign FA unless they lose one that meant that first is going to be something better than a 24 and most likely being a #10-18 draft choice. and a corresponding #74-82 in the third.

I have little doubt that we can replace his most likely 12-15 sacks a year by merely picking up some better NT/DE's and allowing us to Blitz from other than OLB all the time.
The OC are going to find a way to defense him with doubles IF he is our only sack threat That is just a matter of time.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-03-2010, 03:30 PM
Yes he deserves a raise. But with the lack of Young talent OR depth at some poistions, it behooves as a TEAM/Business to improve as Best we can without breaking the bank.
How can you justify selling the farm on a one trick pony that very well have another injury plagued year like last year 5 sacks.

Does anone really believe he will consistently get 15+ sacks a year without more help on the DL line.

Or that since he is a liability on the run they will not just run toward his side neutrializing him. Eventually OC will figure out a way to slow him down.

I like the kid and think he should get paid.

Not worth a mega contract for this team his real value is as a RFA a first and a Third.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

Why? So we can take that first and third and draft another Jarvis Moss and Marcus Thomas? I don't give a shit if we draft Ndamukong Suh, there's absolutely ZERO guarantee that any rookie is going to do anything in the NFL. A pass rusher in the hand (Dumervil) is worth two in the draft because draft picks haven't played a snap.

Odds are, whoever we use that first round pick that we get for Doom on will get pretty much the SAME CONTRACT that we are having such a hard time offering to Dumervil! Look at how much a top 10 pick makes before he takes a snap! It's lunacy to think we're saving money by letting Dumervil walk just to pay another first round draft pick's salary that he may or may not even earn! YOU PAY PRODUCTIVE PLAYERS. YOU DON'T RISK YOUR TEAMS FUTURE REACHING FOR DRAFT PICKS ON A WHIM AND A HOPE THAT THEY MIGHT BE GOOD SOMEDAY!

I said in a different thread that if you're counting on the draft to fix THIS YEAR'S PROBLEMS, then you've already lost. The draft is for building the future, not solving today's problems.

CoachChaz
02-03-2010, 03:48 PM
Why? So we can take that first and third and draft another Jarvis Moss and Marcus Thomas? I don't give a shit if we draft Ndamukong Suh, there's absolutely ZERO guarantee that any rookie is going to do anything in the NFL. A pass rusher in the hand (Dumervil) is worth two in the draft because draft picks haven't played a snap.

Odds are, whoever we use that first round pick that we get for Doom on will get pretty much the SAME CONTRACT that we are having such a hard time offering to Dumervil! Look at how much a top 10 pick makes before he takes a snap! It's lunacy to think we're saving money by letting Dumervil walk just to pay another first round draft pick's salary that he may or may not even earn! YOU PAY PRODUCTIVE PLAYERS. YOU DON'T RISK YOUR TEAMS FUTURE REACHING FOR DRAFT PICKS ON A WHIM AND A HOPE THAT THEY MIGHT BE GOOD SOMEDAY!

I said in a different thread that if you're counting on the draft to fix THIS YEAR'S PROBLEMS, then you've already lost. The draft is for building the future, not solving today's problems.

I agree and disagree.

I agree that we'll spend the same money on a draft pick that very well could be a bust. I'm all for paying Doom...provided the price is right. If he wants some monster contract like Ware, I'll be hesitant because there are alot of holes in his game. I have no problem rewarding him for putting up some numbers, but there has to be a limit. If he demands alot more than he is worth, then I have no problem letting him walk.

But as far as draft picks not fixing this years problems, I'll disagree to an extent. We NEED some guys to come in and perform right away. We NEED young OL to fill glaring holes and we NEED some good 3-4 DL to help out. Unfortunately, we're not in a position where we can wait too long for guys to "pan out" at certain positions.

Good post

HORSEPOWER 56
02-03-2010, 03:56 PM
I agree and disagree.

I agree that we'll spend the same money on a draft pick that very well could be a bust. I'm all for paying Doom...provided the price is right. If he wants some monster contract like Ware, I'll be hesitant because there are alot of holes in his game. I have no problem rewarding him for putting up some numbers, but there has to be a limit. If he demands alot more than he is worth, then I have no problem letting him walk.

But as far as draft picks not fixing this years problems, I'll disagree to an extent. We NEED some guys to come in and perform right away. We NEED young OL to fill glaring holes and we NEED some good 3-4 DL to help out. Unfortunately, we're not in a position where we can wait too long for guys to "pan out" at certain positions.

Good post

Once again, why do you care so much how much Bowlen decides to pay him? It doesn't make sense that the fans think so much about the players' salaries. Either they get paid and stay or they don't. The Broncos won't go bankrupt if they pay Dumervil - even if it's Ware-type money.

As for the draft, yes we need (well, we as fans think we need) guys to come in and be productive right away, but the odds are against it. You know it and so do I, coach. I just hope the guys we drafted last year (Moreno, Smith, Ayers, McBath, etc) play better this year. That's all you can really expect.

CoachChaz
02-03-2010, 04:04 PM
Once again, why do you care so much how much Bowlen decides to pay him? It doesn't make sense that the fans think so much about the players' salaries. Either they get paid and stay or they don't. The Broncos won't go bankrupt if they pay Dumervil - even if it's Ware-type money.

As for the draft, yes we need (well, we as fans think we need) guys to come in and be productive right away, but the odds are against it. You know it and so do I, coach. I just hope the guys we drafted last year (Moreno, Smith, Ayers, McBath, etc) play better this year. That's all you can really expect.

As far as Doom and his contract go, I guess I dont want the team to be locked into something long term if Doom finds himeself unable to come close to repeating his numbers from ONE season. Keep in mind, the odds are good that there will eventually be a salary cap again.

The draft...well, there is a reason why there is a OROY and a DROY award. becasue rookies can and will come in and produce. houston neede LB help and Cushing came in, filled a hole and produced. As far as Denver is concerned, there is no guarantee that any "quality" OG or DE will sign with us...if there are even any available. So, we will be relying on someone to come in and fill a hole and excel. Clady did it. Hell, there's a rookie RB playing in the Super Bowl helping Manning's passign game by running the ball well.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-03-2010, 04:19 PM
As far as Doom and his contract go, I guess I dont want the team to be locked into something long term if Doom finds himeself unable to come close to repeating his numbers from ONE season. Keep in mind, the odds are good that there will eventually be a salary cap again.

The draft...well, there is a reason why there is a OROY and a DROY award. becasue rookies can and will come in and produce. houston neede LB help and Cushing came in, filled a hole and produced. As far as Denver is concerned, there is no guarantee that any "quality" OG or DE will sign with us...if there are even any available. So, we will be relying on someone to come in and fill a hole and excel. Clady did it. Hell, there's a rookie RB playing in the Super Bowl helping Manning's passign game by running the ball well.

I'm not saying that rookies can't/don't contribute, I'm saying that if you're banking on a rookie to come in and start for you right away because you have a gaping hole at that position, you'd better be ready for some disappointment. Most rookies aren't major contributors their first year.

You're absolutely right that there is no guarantee that any "quality" OG or DE will sign with us. just like there is absolutely no guarantee that we'll be able to find anyone either through FA or the draft to replace Dumervil's production if we trade him away. He's ours right now. We get the first shot to keep him and his double digit sacks (which he's done more often than not) on the team. Allowing Elvis to leave just creates another hole for us to try to fill with either a rookie draft pick or a high priced FA (because almost all FAs get paid more than they're worth). I'd rather just keep the home-grown guy and let other teams struggle with who they're going to get to rush the passer.

CoachChaz
02-03-2010, 04:36 PM
I'm not saying that rookies can't/don't contribute, I'm saying that if you're banking on a rookie to come in and start for you right away because you have a gaping hole at that position, you'd better be ready for some disappointment. Most rookies aren't major contributors their first year.

You're absolutely right that there is no guarantee that any "quality" OG or DE will sign with us. just like there is absolutely no guarantee that we'll be able to find anyone either through FA or the draft to replace Dumervil's production if we trade him away. He's ours right now. We get the first shot to keep him and his double digit sacks (which he's done more often than not) on the team. Allowing Elvis to leave just creates another hole for us to try to fill with either a rookie draft pick or a high priced FA (because almost all FAs get paid more than they're worth). I'd rather just keep the home-grown guy and let other teams struggle with who they're going to get to rush the passer.


...and like I said...I'm okay with this. As long as my future salary cap doesnt take a significant hit because we want to pay a one trick pony more than he's worth. Most people can barely see Ware being worth the contract he got...Doom is not as good as Ware. Now, it's all speculation that he'll want what Ware gets, but if he wants anything close, it's still too much.

All I'm saying is that at some point, one season of 17 sacks and little else, has to have a limit when it comes to spending money.

SOCALORADO.
02-03-2010, 05:28 PM
...and like I said...I'm okay with this. As long as my future salary cap doesnt take a significant hit because we want to pay a one trick pony more than he's worth. Most people can barely see Ware being worth the contract he got...Doom is not as good as Ware. Now, it's all speculation that he'll want what Ware gets, but if he wants anything close, it's still too much.

All I'm saying is that at some point, one season of 17 sacks and little else, has to have a limit when it comes to spending money.

Yeah. hopefully Doom works with the DEN FO.
So what would be an acceptable contract?
Give us what you would offer to Doom if you were Bowlen.

CoachChaz
02-03-2010, 05:33 PM
Yeah. hopefully Doom works with the DEN FO.
So what would be an acceptable contract?
Give us what you would offer to Doom if you were Bowlen.

Given the fact he had 17 sacks and did little else while transitioning to a new position...


5 years, $30 mil with escalators for performance achievements. (Make the Pro Bowl, get 12 sacks, get 15 sacks, get 20 sacks, record 50 tackles, record 75 tackles, etc)

SOCALORADO.
02-03-2010, 05:40 PM
Given the fact he had 17 sacks and did little else while transitioning to a new position...


5 years, $30 mil with escalators for performance achievements. (Make the Pro Bowl, get 12 sacks, get 15 sacks, get 20 sacks, record 50 tackles, record 75 tackles, etc)

OK. Then were on the same page. Good. I had it at 35 Mil, but were close.

Lonestar
02-03-2010, 07:38 PM
I agree and disagree.

I agree that we'll spend the same money on a draft pick that very well could be a bust. I'm all for paying Doom...provided the price is right. If he wants some monster contract like Ware, I'll be hesitant because there are alot of holes in his game. I have no problem rewarding him for putting up some numbers, but there has to be a limit. If he demands alot more than he is worth, then I have no problem letting him walk.

But as far as draft picks not fixing this years problems, I'll disagree to an extent. We NEED some guys to come in and perform right away. We NEED young OL to fill glaring holes and we NEED some good 3-4 DL to help out. Unfortunately, we're not in a position where we can wait too long for guys to "pan out" at certain positions.

Good post

Who Said the first and a third have to be used in those positions perhaps it is time and money well spent in getting another 2 and 3-4 for the first depending on how high the choice is.

And I really doubt that 15-24 choice and a third is going to cost the same as a Ware contract would. and If it id get close there is a great chance you get two good players out of it .

Folks I have a lot less fear factor, about drafting players than I did say two years ago.

yes they are a crap shoot but a lost less than 1999 thru2005 and then again in 2007.:salute:

Lonestar
02-03-2010, 07:45 PM
I'm not saying that rookies can't/don't contribute, I'm saying that if you're banking on a rookie to come in and start for you right away because you have a gaping hole at that position, you'd better be ready for some disappointment. Most rookies aren't major contributors their first year.

You're absolutely right that there is no guarantee that any "quality" OG or DE will sign with us. just like there is absolutely no guarantee that we'll be able to find anyone either through FA or the draft to replace Dumervil's production if we trade him away. He's ours right now. We get the first shot to keep him and his double digit sacks (which he's done more often than not) on the team. Allowing Elvis to leave just creates another hole for us to try to fill with either a rookie draft pick or a high priced FA (because almost all FAs get paid more than they're worth). I'd rather just keep the home-grown guy and let other teams struggle with who they're going to get to rush the passer.

The odds are we can fill gaping holes that I see ORG, Center, and NT with quality players in this years draft. If we have the picks to get them. as for losing Marshall we have the players to take those receptions once he is not on the field. Perhaps they will not be a s flashy but hen they may even be better at making the catch once they get some looks. We may be surprised.

a few years back we had a pedestrian Qb and two OK WRs.

Griese, Smith and Eddie Mac. The passing game survived Sharped departure quite well. IIRC they both got a 100 catches and almost 100 yards each.

Dean
02-03-2010, 07:55 PM
The odds are we can fill gaping holes that I see ORG, Center, and NT with quality players in this years draft. If we have the picks to get them. as for losing Marshall we have the players to take those receptions once he is not on the field. Perhaps they will not be a s flashy but hen they may even be better at making the catch once they get some looks. We may be surprised.

I don't feel comfortable trading a BIG maybe for a sure thing. IMO it won't matter though because Marshall won't come back unless there are no significant offers.


a few years back we had a pedestrian Qb and two OK WRs.

Griese, Smith and Eddie Mac. The passing game survived Sharped departure quite well. IIRC they both got a 100 catches and almost 100 yards each.

If we survived so well, why was Shannon lured back with a big contract?:questionmark:

Lonestar
02-03-2010, 10:26 PM
I don't feel comfortable trading a BIG maybe for a sure thing. IMO it won't matter though because Marshall won't come back unless there are no significant offers.



If we survived so well, why was Shannon lured back with a big contract?:questionmark:


Once BAL cut him because of his huge contract.So he could retire as a Broncos more than anything else

I do not recall the last contract being all that big.


If it was, it was done because Mike was generous with Pats money.

Nickademus
02-05-2010, 01:40 AM
if you understand why he and other bronco players on defense had bad years..yes then we would have been wise to start talks...

08 was his worst year..he also had no line help, a suck ass scheme...you remember it right?..rush wide...Dts not asked to penetrate instead get pushed back into the linebackers..qb steps up in pocket and shreds us...teams shredded us in the middle of the line

your stupidity has no bounds...extending promising pass rusher on his last year of a rookie contract..or at least starting the negotiations during the season..is a hell of a lot differant then extending a rb who didnt break a 100 yards once and didnt crack a 1000 for the season after his rookie yr....to even compare the two leaves me baffled at your ability to even type

gee how can we afford to sign doom and a dline??????:confused:

i dunno..how are we gonna sign all these day one picks were getting from losing doom, marshall and scheff...if we cant sign doom and a dline then we got no business looking for 1st rd picks

how did we afford to cut a very cheap mike leach...our long time LS who never missed a snap.....so we can pay lonnie paxton 1.6 mill in 09??

was knowshon worth 5 mill last season??....its ludicrious to say he was worth that amount..(it includes his bonus) for his 3.8 ypc ar 59 yards per game...yet say we cant afford doom?

while I will leave the personal jabs out the point I was making was that the new coaching staff and FO had no idea what they had in doom. IMHO marshall would have been the only one of the players from that draft that they would have considered extending. not because doom was an up and coming pass rusher who may be ok as an olb but because they had no Idea that he would thrive in a new system, but they did know that he sucked against the run and that while dinged up he didnt have the best year.

TXBRONC
02-05-2010, 10:30 AM
while I will leave the personal jabs out the point I was making was that the new coaching staff and FO had no idea what they had in doom. IMHO marshall would have been the only one of the players from that draft that they would have considered extending. not because doom was an up and coming pass rusher who may be ok as an olb but because they had no Idea that he would thrive in a new system, but they did know that he sucked against the run and that while dinged up he didnt have the best year.

I disagree. If they felt by the end of the offseason (OTAs and camp) they had no idea whatsoever in what kind of player they had in Dumervil then why in hell would start him? No by the end of preseason they would have been able educated guess as to whether or not be able to thrive in the 3-4. If fact I do remember article being written before season even that they pretty sure was going thrive in the 3-4.

Now if you're saying even by midseason that still would have no idea if Dumervil was thrive in the 3-4 I would say you're mistaken. Because by midseason he was already in double digit sacks they knew by then that he was thriving. Based on that it would have been good idea in my opinion for them to at least start negotiations on a new contract.

Nickademus
02-05-2010, 10:59 AM
I agree that by mid season they knew what they had and my guess is that his agent shut any talks down at this point because he too knew what he had if you remember there was talk of doom breaking the sack record at that point. If the staff thought he was going to do as well as he did in the pre season then you are right they should have extended him them I just think that a wait and see policy was put into place and thats why we didnt get any deals done.

TXBRONC
02-05-2010, 11:32 AM
I agree that by mid season they knew what they had and my guess is that his agent shut any talks down at this point because he too knew what he had if you remember there was talk of doom breaking the sack record at that point. If the staff thought he was going to do as well as he did in the pre season then you are right they should have extended him them I just think that a wait and see policy was put into place and thats why we didnt get any deals done.

That would be the perfect time to negotiations on a new contract. I don't think most agents would be dumb ass enough not to want to talk. There way to many unknowns, Dumervil could ended up IR, and of course you don't if you're going break the record at mid season. In my opinion it's a win/win if they can get a new contract worked out before the end of the season.

I wasn't meaning that should have extended Dumervil's contract before start of the season just because they were pretty sure he could handle the position. To be fair they still needed to see what he could do when games really counted.

arapaho2
02-05-2010, 12:18 PM
players at the end of a contract need that security..thats why they extend contracts

if the player refused to negotiate on his last year...he always takes the risk of a career ending injury....then hes shit out of luck

Lonestar
02-05-2010, 04:23 PM
players at the end of a contract need that security..thats why they extend contracts

if the player refused to negotiate on his last year...he always takes the risk of a career ending injury....then hes shit out of luck


Your correct on this item.. BUT when should we have offered him an extension


We did not have a clue on how good he was going to be, we did not even know prior to TC if he had a clue and could work in space for sure.

It was not until preseason games did we know that he could get after the QB against other teams.

I take what happens in TC with a grain of salt. Until you know how good the D is going to be against other teams anything the O does means NADA IMHO.

Same thing goes for the D which was IIRC tearing it up in TC against the run but we all saw how that turned out.

Eddie R was doing great in TC and he more or less disappeared in the season.



Should we have tried to extend him during the season.

Who Knows that we did not?

Who know for sure that he did not decide to roll the dice?

rcsodak
02-06-2010, 11:02 PM
NFL reality 101:

1. No player contracts are guaranteed.
2. Injuries are a fact of life.
3. Players who are injured entering FA lose a tremendous amount of money and if there is a question about whether they are seriously hurt, they can lose most of their bargaining position.
4. Dumervil had NEVER had a season that would justify the expectation that he could emerge as an NFL star.

Thus there is incentive for BOTH sides to do a new contract PRIOR to the 2009 season. Dumervil gets security if he's hurt or simply doesn't perform. The team takes a risk on signing him to a long-term contract, but then if he succeeds they keep a player who would otherwise get a MASSIVE windfall in FA.

This sort of deal is done virtually every time a player re-signs with his own team rather than permitting him to play out his contract.

Both sides give up something.

Obviously this requires the team to evaluate how good they think the player is BEFORE he has a HUGE season, but that's what coaches and GMs are for. Talent evaluation is their job. They ought to know better than anybody exactly what kind of player they have and if he's worth the money.

Identifying and tying up key players in long-term contracts is exactly how the Patriots have been able to stay on top of the league for nearly 10 years (despite the NFL being designed to create "parity" by giving the worst teams the best draft picks).

There were NO reports about serious negotiations between Doom & the Broncos before the season. DURING the season is probably too late. The team seems (at best) to be counting on the fact that Doom will be a restricted FA instead of un-restricted because of the expiration of the CBA.

But, forcing a player to stay on a team and not paying him what he deserves NEVER ends well for the team. They can't keep offering him one-year franchise contracts or count on matching other teams' offer-sheets. That's just a BAD way to do business and creates bad blood. Forcing a player to play for you simply means he'll find a way off the team in short order -- usually the next season.

Exhibit A: Brandon Marshall. Doom hasn't acted out like Marshall, but then he's not a WR! WRs are always prima-donnas in this league if you haven't noticed the Broncos are now losing one of the top 5 WRs in the NFL.

Homers can blather about how he's not that great -- but watch him in the Pro-bowl for the next 5 years -- then talk. :coffee:

Ridiculous.

Brand new coach...short amount of time to evaluate ALL players. Has to deal with petulant qb...wr.

He hardly had time to worry about contracts leading up to the season.

Reality knocks.