Broncos coach McDaniels can do it all, or at least he's trying

[Lonestar]

Krieger: Broncos coach McDaniels can do it all, or at least he's trying
By Dave Krieger
Denver Post Columnist
POSTED: 01/21/2010 01:00:00 AM MST
UPDATED: 01/21/2010 10:56:21 AM MST

In retrospect, as soon as Josh McDaniels explained in his season-ending news conference that run blitzing is "never a good formula," we should have known Mike Nolan was gone.

Nolan's aggressive mind-set is no secret in the NFL. When it was working for the Broncos early in the season, nobody seemed to mind. When it started working against them as the season wore on, people — including, apparently, Nolan's boss — started to mind.

Considering the defensive talent he inherited, especially up front, some of us thought it was amazing Nolan's smoke and mirrors worked as long as they did. Evidently, McDaniels was not among us.

In any case, an odd pattern seems to be emerging. When McDaniels arrived a year ago, the Broncos' strength was their offense. Almost immediately, he began to dismantle it by trading the quarterback. By almost every statistical measure, the offense McDaniels found was better than the one he created.

A year later, the team's strength is the defense, which improved from 29th in the NFL a year ago to seventh this season. So, as soon as the season is over, McDaniels and the defensive coordinator mutually agree to put 2,000 miles between them.

Trying to understand why this doesn't look as odd from the inside as it does from out here, I put in a call to Broncos chief operating officer Joe Ellis, owner Pat Bowlen's right-hand man. I asked if they are dismantling their most effective unit each year on purpose. I wondered if this is what Bowlen had in mind when he hired McDaniels a year ago.

"I would just tell you this — that Pat supports what Josh has done 100 percent," Ellis said.

"And while some of it may appear to have been difficult and a change in philosophy and a change in how this team is trying to operate, what Josh's philosophy is — which is to bring in tough, smart players that are accountable to their teammates, their coaches, their head coach, their organization, the owner and their fans — all of that Pat believes in to the fullest extent."

As do a lot of the players, Ellis said.

In light of the Nolan departure, I asked how this is any different from the Mike Shanahan days. Like Shanahan, McDaniels has final say over personnel, runs the offense, calls the plays and now apparently intends to run the defense too. General manager Brian Xanders might as well be in the witness protection program. Wasn't Bowlen trying to get away from this concentration of power when he fired Shanahan?

"Pat has put Josh and Brian collectively in the position of running the football program for us," Ellis said. "And the decisions that have been made are not decisions that are made in isolation. Pat is informed. If Pat's not here, I am informed on his behalf.

"I mean, there's direct communication ongoing on a daily basis between Josh, myself and Pat, between Brian, myself and Pat, on all issues related to the team. But the voice you hear, and this is the way Pat wanted it, is the guy that's running the football program for him, and that's Josh."

I may have pointed out that in the space of 30 seconds he had gone from Josh and Brian running the football program to just Josh.

"Josh and Brian are speaking to Pat, and I'm involved in a lot of that as well, on all of the issues that come up, and they speak to him together," Ellis said. "But then Josh is the voice that relays what they collectively or we collectively feel is the best way to let the information out to the public. You can agree or disagree as to whether multiple voices should be heard."

Actually, the issue I was getting at isn't so much who's talking. It's who's deciding. A year ago, there was a lot of sentiment that Shanahan simply had too much on his plate, that there weren't enough hours in the day for one man to be head coach, de facto offensive coordinator and de facto GM — and do all three jobs well.

Like McDaniels, Shanahan had personnel people working with him, sometimes even one with the GM title, but the Broncos' erratic drafts suggested that was not necessarily the best model. Evidently, Bowlen didn't feel that way because he has essentially replicated that structure for McDaniels.

McDaniels runs the offense. He is taking charge of the defense. He will run the draft. He will make the trades. It is Shanny Redux with one major revision: McDaniels keeps the boss in the loop. Give him this: It's a pretty smart revision.

Like Shanahan, he will ultimately be judged on the results. If he wins enough games, his tactics will be all good. That's the Bill Belichick credo. McDaniels is counting on it.

Dave Krieger: 303-954-5297, dkrieger@denverpost.com or twitter.com/DaveKrieger



Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_14234589#ixzz0dHnHhMyh

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I just hope for my team's sake that once again, the owner isn't giving the coach enough rope to hang himself. Shanny didn't suffer for his drafting and his decisions of the past 10 years, we did as the fans. Whether or not McDaniels is here for the long term, we the fans are still the ones holding the bag if his decisions suck. He gets paid either way...

[Lonestar]

I just hope for my team's sake that once again, the owner isn't giving the coach enough rope to hang himself. Shanny didn't suffer for his drafting and his decisions of the past 10 years, we did as the fans. Whether or not McDaniels is here for the long term, we the fans are still the ones holding the bag if his decisions suck. He gets paid either way...


I've seen nothing to support your allegation that Pat gave mike enough rope to hang himself.


Nor do I believe he is doing that to Josh.

sour grapes maybe?

[Northman]

Might of turned out different had McD given Nolan more to work with in the Dline. Guess he never thought of that. lol

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I've seen nothing to support your allegation that Pat gave mike enough rope to hang himself.


Nor do I believe he is doing that to Josh.

sour grapes maybe?

Huh? Giving your coach "absolute power" over all of football operations (coaching, drafting, Free Agency, player contracts, etc) with little to no "checks and balances" like having a good GM at his side is giving your HC the "rope to hang himself", IMO.

It says everything you need to know in the article, JR. Mike had absolute control. Josh does, too. We all knew that Shanny's GMs were puppetts and "yes men", it pretty much admits Brian Xanders is one also.

What are YOU talking about and what article are YOU reading?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Might of turned out different had McD given Nolan more to work with in the Dline. Guess he never thought of that. lol

Might also have turned out different if Shanahan had LEFT more to work with in the DL. How many years did he have to FIX the DL?????

[Northman]

Might also have turned out different if Shanahan had LEFT more to work with in the DL. How many years did he have to FIX the DL?????

Weak sauce. McD had ample opportunity to address the lines in this past offseason but chose to go another route including giving up draft picks to move up for reaches.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Weak sauce. McD had ample opportunity to address the lines in this past offseason but chose to go another route including giving up draft picks to move up for reaches.

If Coach McD had ample opportunity to address the lines in his FIRST offseason, how LONG did Shanahan have to address them??????

[Northman]

If Coach McD had ample opportunity to address the lines in his FIRST offseason, how LONG did Shanahan have to address them??????

What does anything have to do with Shanahan? Seriously? Why are you thumping on the Shanahan tenure? This is about McD, not Shanahan. Now your just deflecting.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

What does anything have to do with Shanahan? Seriously? Why are you thumping on the Shanahan tenure? This is about McD, not Shanahan. Now your just deflecting.

This has everything to do with Shanahan. If the team was GREAT the last year he was here - he would still be here. You can't expect a new coach to make a team perfect his first year, that obviously was nothing more than an average team when he took over.

[rationalfan]

I just hope for my team's sake that once again, the owner isn't giving the coach enough rope to hang himself. Shanny didn't suffer for his drafting and his decisions of the past 10 years, we did as the fans. Whether or not McDaniels is here for the long term, we the fans are still the ones holding the bag if his decisions suck. He gets paid either way...

nothing against you personally, but i just find it incredibly ironic that you criticize the owner of the broncos while referring to the broncos as your team.

i'm not suggesting owners aren't due criticism; but owners do deserve respect from fans who too often feel like they should be running the team.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

nothing against you personally, but i just find it incredibly ironic that you criticize the owner of the broncos while referring to the broncos as your team.

i'm not suggesting owners aren't due criticism; but owners do deserve respect from fans who too often feel like they should be running the team.


Um, who's paying for that owner's cushy office? This team? His hand picked coach? Yeah, that's right, we are. Everyone who spends his or her hard earned dollars on this franchise is "part of the team" as far as I'm concerned.

I have a ton of respect for Pat Bowlen, I just think that his willingness to hand over the keys to every coach and just let them do what they think is best shows me:

A) He's probably not much of a "football mind" he's a business man. Which is okay as long as we win.
B) He didn't learn much from the "bad parts" of the Shanahan tenure as the coach.

If I didn't want to express my opinion, pro or con, I wouldn't be here, and neither would you.

[Northman]

This has everything to do with Shanahan. If the team was GREAT the last year he was here - he would still be here. You can't expect a new coach to make a team perfect his first year, that obviously was nothing more than an average team when he took over.

And yet Nolan was supposed to make an allstar defense with what we had? McD is the one who makes the moves, it wasnt rocket science about what the main issues are with this team especially on defense. How is it the rest of the planet knows whats wrong with the Broncos but McDaniels doesnt? :lol:

[dogfish]

does anyone know what joe ellis' football qualifications are? does he HAVE any? or is he just a bean counter/hired stooge/PR guy?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

And yet Nolan was supposed to make an allstar defense with what we had? McD is the one who makes the moves, it wasnt rocket science about what the main issues are with this team especially on defense. How is it the rest of the planet knows whats wrong with the Broncos but McDaniels doesnt? :lol:

You will not find one post on this board where I have posted anything negative in regards to Nolan. Also, no new coach can plug all the holes that need plugging in one off season, and one draft, if he is taking over an average team.

[Northman]

You will not find one post on this board where I have posted anything negative in regards to Nolan. Also, no new coach can plug all the holes that need plugging in one off season, and one draft, if he is taking over an average team.

Can he plug all the holes in one year? No. Can he plug the most important holes in one year? Oh yea. Did he do it when it was obvious? No.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

does anyone know what joe ellis' football qualifications are? does he HAVE any? or is he just a bean counter/hired stooge/PR guy?

The way it sounds, he's Bowlen's glorified administrative assistant, aka "coffee getter and phone answerer". :noidea:

[JDL]

What's funny is that it is the talent Shanahan left behind that mainly got us to 8-8... Marshall and Stokely won 3 of those games (games that they really shouldn't have won.)

What's even funnier is the idea that McDaniels took over some team that couldn't be turned around quickly.

Whisenhunt took over a very bad 5-11 team and improved their performance by 3 wins first year, took another step the next year and then the next.

Mike Smith in Atlanta took over a 4-12 team and improved it to 11-5, 1 year.

Harbaugh took over a 5-11 team and went 11-5, 1 year.

Wade Phillips took over a 9-7 team and went 13-3 (that's tied for the most wins in Cowboys history)

McCarthy improved a 4-12 team to 8-8

Sparano improved a 1-15 team to 11-5, 1 freaking season folks!

Sean Payton took a 3-13 team to 11-5, you guessed it, 1 season

That's all just the last couple of years... and people are going to seriously say with a straight face that Shanahan left the cupboard too bare for McDaniels to succeed? Whether you support McD or not... you have to agree that is utter and ridiculous nonsense... even more it's just dumb.



As for the ACTUAL thread point. I am not sure why Bowlen thinks it is best to have one man basically run the show. I really don't have a lot of confidence in even the best of coaches to manage all that let alone a very young coach with no head coaching experience whatsoever... that's a lot to ask of anyone. Really, there's been far more failures with that type of power structure than successes. I worry even more as Bowlen gets on in years and is clearly having issues, what will occur with the football program. It is important to have a strong football structure in place and Denver doesn't right now. I think the best way you do that is how Pittsburgh has always done it... even with Art Rooney, he filled the executive positions with strong football guys. They had say and they had power, Cowher didn't have full say on the draft or free agency. By placing good people at the top, they can manage coaching decisions (when a new one is needed, etc.) This is a function I know Bowlen has enjoyed, but really as he advances in age, he really should have someone (who is more than a lacky) to run the football operation (that means everything from business side to the football side) ... have strong heads at the top of the scouting department, football team and other departments.) The coaches main job is to coach, not worry about player issues and the like... it's an interesting dynamic about Arizona too having that separation has allowed Boldin to coexist with Whisenhunt.. they've rarely had issues with each other (only once incident where Whisenhunt commented on the ongoing negotiations) and have worked well together. That separation is really beneficial, there can be a lot of hurt feelings in negotations and they can be tough, that's why the player has a representative and why it is better if the organization has some with the power to make the call who is not the head coach. Head Coach should always have input, they are a team, but it provides a buffer. I honestly can't see that power structure having any long-term success and in most cases any short-term either. Just seems like a bad mix, regardless of who is calling the shots.

[topscribe]

What's funny is that it is the talent Shanahan left behind that mainly got us to 8-8... Marshall and Stokely won 3 of those games (games that they really shouldn't have won.)

What's even funnier is the idea that McDaniels took over some team that couldn't be turned around quickly.

Whisenhunt took over a very bad 5-11 team and improved their performance by 3 wins first year, took another step the next year and then the next.

Mike Smith in Atlanta took over a 4-12 team and improved it to 11-5, 1 year.

Harbaugh took over a 5-11 team and went 11-5, 1 year.

Wade Phillips took over a 9-7 team and went 13-3 (that's tied for the most wins in Cowboys history)

McCarthy improved a 4-12 team to 8-8

Sparano improved a 1-15 team to 11-5, 1 freaking season folks!

Sean Payton took a 3-13 team to 11-5, you guessed it, 1 season

That's all just the last couple of years... and people are going to seriously say with a straight face that Shanahan left the cupboard too bare for McDaniels to succeed? Whether you support McD or not... you have to agree that is utter and ridiculous nonsense... even more it's just dumb.



As for the ACTUAL thread point. I am not sure why Bowlen thinks it is best to have one man basically run the show. I really don't have a lot of confidence in even the best of coaches to manage all that let alone a very young coach with no head coaching experience whatsoever... that's a lot to ask of anyone. Really, there's been far more failures with that type of power structure than successes. I worry even more as Bowlen gets on in years and is clearly having issues, what will occur with the football program. It is important to have a strong football structure in place and Denver doesn't right now. I think the best way you do that is how Pittsburgh has always done it... even with Art Rooney, he filled the executive positions with strong football guys. They had say and they had power, Cowher didn't have full say on the draft or free agency. By placing good people at the top, they can manage coaching decisions (when a new one is needed, etc.) This is a function I know Bowlen has enjoyed, but really as he advances in age, he really should have someone (who is more than a lacky) to run the football operation (that means everything from business side to the football side) ... have strong heads at the top of the scouting department, football team and other departments.) The coaches main job is to coach, not worry about player issues and the like... it's an interesting dynamic about Arizona too having that separation has allowed Boldin to coexist with Whisenhunt.. they've rarely had issues with each other (only once incident where Whisenhunt commented on the ongoing negotiations) and have worked well together. That separation is really beneficial, there can be a lot of hurt feelings in negotations and they can be tough, that's why the player has a representative and why it is better if the organization has some with the power to make the call who is not the head coach. Head Coach should always have input, they are a team, but it provides a buffer. I honestly can't see that power structure having any long-term success and in most cases any short-term either. Just seems like a bad mix, regardless of who is calling the shots.

Once again, we're faced with watching a few statistics run by without the
opportunity to analyze them. But I do know it is a mistake to judge one
individual by the exploits of another, in a different situation, involving different
players with different schedules.

There are reasons for the turnarounds of those teams and for the record of
this one . . . and they do not all necessarily involve the head coach.

I just see no merit in this argument . . .

EDIT: I wrote that before reading your long paragraph. (Frankly, I do wish you
would break them up a bit more. Your writing is very good, IMO, but the long,
long paragraphs cause me to peruse, rather than read, and that is not doing
you justice.)

When I saw the appreciation North gave your post, I went back and made an
effort to read it. Some good points there. I thought the same when Shanny
was here and had total power and responsibility.

-----

[Northman]

What's funny is that it is the talent Shanahan left behind that mainly got us to 8-8... Marshall and Stokely won 3 of those games (games that they really shouldn't have won.)

What's even funnier is the idea that McDaniels took over some team that couldn't be turned around quickly.

Whisenhunt took over a very bad 5-11 team and improved their performance by 3 wins first year, took another step the next year and then the next.

Mike Smith in Atlanta took over a 4-12 team and improved it to 11-5, 1 year.

Harbaugh took over a 5-11 team and went 11-5, 1 year.

Wade Phillips took over a 9-7 team and went 13-3 (that's tied for the most wins in Cowboys history)

McCarthy improved a 4-12 team to 8-8

Sparano improved a 1-15 team to 11-5, 1 freaking season folks!

Sean Payton took a 3-13 team to 11-5, you guessed it, 1 season

That's all just the last couple of years... and people are going to seriously say with a straight face that Shanahan left the cupboard too bare for McDaniels to succeed? Whether you support McD or not... you have to agree that is utter and ridiculous nonsense... even more it's just dumb.



As for the ACTUAL thread point. I am not sure why Bowlen thinks it is best to have one man basically run the show. I really don't have a lot of confidence in even the best of coaches to manage all that let alone a very young coach with no head coaching experience whatsoever... that's a lot to ask of anyone. Really, there's been far more failures with that type of power structure than successes. I worry even more as Bowlen gets on in years and is clearly having issues, what will occur with the football program. It is important to have a strong football structure in place and Denver doesn't right now. I think the best way you do that is how Pittsburgh has always done it... even with Art Rooney, he filled the executive positions with strong football guys. They had say and they had power, Cowher didn't have full say on the draft or free agency. By placing good people at the top, they can manage coaching decisions (when a new one is needed, etc.) This is a function I know Bowlen has enjoyed, but really as he advances in age, he really should have someone (who is more than a lacky) to run the football operation (that means everything from business side to the football side) ... have strong heads at the top of the scouting department, football team and other departments.) The coaches main job is to coach, not worry about player issues and the like... it's an interesting dynamic about Arizona too having that separation has allowed Boldin to coexist with Whisenhunt.. they've rarely had issues with each other (only once incident where Whisenhunt commented on the ongoing negotiations) and have worked well together. That separation is really beneficial, there can be a lot of hurt feelings in negotations and they can be tough, that's why the player has a representative and why it is better if the organization has some with the power to make the call who is not the head coach. Head Coach should always have input, they are a team, but it provides a buffer. I honestly can't see that power structure having any long-term success and in most cases any short-term either. Just seems like a bad mix, regardless of who is calling the shots.

Great post and totally on the money.

[Dean]

I certainly don't see Pat Bowlen as calling the shots. Think back over the last ten years. Other than a few firings, what has he done?

It is merely my opinion but I don't think Pat Bowlen takes any part in the football operations and further more it is completely by choice. He doesn't call the shots and that is exactly how he wants it.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Once again, we're faced with watching a few statistics run by without the
opportunity to analyze them. But I do know it is a mistake to judge one
individual by the exploits of another, in a different situation, involving different
players with different schedules.

There are reasons for the turnarounds of those teams and for the record of
this one . . . and they do not all necessarily involve the head coach.

I just see no merit in this argument . . .

-----

Also not sure, but I wonder if any of those other HC's had to put at the TOP of their priority list, trying to replace a whiney starting QB who wanted out of town, rather than trying to get down to handling all the other aspects of what he should have been trying to concentrate on.

[topscribe]

Also not sure, but I wonder if any of those other HC's had to put at the TOP of their priority list, trying to replace a whiney starting QB who wanted out of town, rather than trying to get down to handling all the other aspects of what he should have been trying to concentrate on.

That is a reason JDL's point was very good. The last two regimes have had
relatively weak GMs. A strong GM could have dealt with the likes of Cutler,
leaving the HC more to what a HC does . . .

It would seem.

-----

[Northman]

Also not sure, but I wonder if any of those other HC's had to put at the TOP of their priority list, trying to replace a whiney starting QB who wanted out of town, rather than trying to get down to handling all the other aspects of what he should have been trying to concentrate on.

Cutler did do himself a disservice with his antics. However, according to the select few who think McD can do no wrong it has been said that McD would of been great for Jay because he was a QB type of coach. If thats the case, McD blew a huge opportunity to even try and work with the kid. Furthermore, he helped run the kid out of town because he couldnt just be up front with the guy from the get go. So really, the only reason why he had to replace his QB is because he helped create the drama that created the shitstorm to begin with. If you look at the history of the coaches that JDL pointed out. You dont see the drama there because the coaches go into those situations and try to work with the crew they have. Phillips didnt go into Dallas and say, hey i want to trade for Joe Namath because i dont think Romo can cut it here. All those coaches at least tried to use the players they had on the roster before making their determinations. Again, this just comes down to homework which McD failed to do. You have to know the situation your getting into and the players you are dealing with. If not, than you only have yourself to blame when the storm comes down.

[spikerman]

For all of the "the cupboard was bare" talk I seem to remember that when Shanahan was fired, the football experts said that the Denver job was the best job available because of all of the talent on the team. How did the team go from that position to having so little talent that despite McDaniels' best efforts he could do no better than Shanahan's last year?

[topscribe]

For all of the "the cupboard was bare" talk I seem to remember that when Shanahan was fired, the football experts said that the Denver job was the best job available because of all of the talent on the team. How did the team go from that position to having so little talent that despite McDaniels' best efforts he could do no better than Shanahan's last year?

I recall, as the 2008 season progressed, how people were talking about how
little talent there was on the club, especially on the defensive side. I also
recall how, before the season started, most had the Broncos winning from two
to four games, which they had to be basing on the 2008 team because nobody
knew much about the 2009 team.

Whoever thought the 2008 team had a lot of talent was self-delusional . . .

-----

[Northman]

For all of the "the cupboard was bare" talk I seem to remember that when Shanahan was fired, the football experts said that the Denver job was the best job available because of all of the talent on the team. How did the team go from that position to having so little talent that despite McDaniels' best efforts he could do no better than Shanahan's last year?


One would think that a coach coming in would see the offense and say "wow, now i just need a good DC and some solid defensive players and i think we have a real shot here".

[spikerman]

I recall, as the 2008 season progressed, how people were talking about how
little talent there was on the club, especially on the defensive side. I also
recall how, before the season started, most had the Broncos winning from two
to four games, which they had to be basing on the 2008 team because nobody
knew much about the 2009 team.

Whoever thought the 2008 team had a lot of talent was self-delusional . . .

-----

From Bill Williamson after the announcement of the firing:

"Posted by ESPN.com's Bill Williamson

For the first time in 14 years, Pat Bowlen will be making a significant hire as the owner of the Denver Broncos.

What will he do? Whatever he wants.

Bowlen is the possessor of the greatest job in the NFL as a result of his firing of coach Mike Shanahan.


http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/tag/_/name/shanahan-fired

From the Seattle Times, also found on ESPN. It's an AP article.

Shanahan went 146-91 in 14 seasons with Denver, including the playoffs. However, he was a pedestrian 24-24 over the last three seasons.

The new coach coming in will have pieces to work with - the offense is fully loaded. With Pro Bowlers Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall, rookie wideout Eddie Royal and a young offensive line, the Broncos finished with the second-best offense in the league.

It's that defense that needs work. The Broncos gave up 448 points this season, third-worst in the NFL.

Defensive deficiencies aside, Ekuban thinks the team is on the right path.

"Whoever comes in is going to have a well-stocked team that should be ready to go," said Ekuban, a pending free agent who hopes to be back. "As any year, some things are going to change. But I wouldn't touch that offense ... They did a tremendous job. Wish we could've helped."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2008574176_apfbnshanahanfired.html

From Michael Lombardi:

"One thing I do know is that Denver, despite its financial constraints, is the prime job in the NFL right now. It has a QB and a left tackle, and it can only get better on defense. This is the best job out there, and I suspect the best defensive coaches available will be in line to take it. "

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/diner-news-denver-fallout.html




I remember the pundits on ESPN saying the same kinds of things. I know there is a difference in opinion. I just don't think it makes much sense to say that McDaniels had a harder job than Mike Smith, or Tony Sporano and they won in their first year with the team.

Like I've said before, although I am pretty anti-McDaniels right now, I would ultimately love to see him succeed. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong, but right now I just don't see this team getting better.

[topscribe]

From Bill Williamson after the announcement of the firing:

"Posted by ESPN.com's Bill Williamson

For the first time in 14 years, Pat Bowlen will be making a significant hire as the owner of the Denver Broncos.

What will he do? Whatever he wants.

Bowlen is the possessor of the greatest job in the NFL as a result of his firing of coach Mike Shanahan.


http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/tag/_/name/shanahan-fired

From the Seattle Times, also found on ESPN. It's an AP article.

Shanahan went 146-91 in 14 seasons with Denver, including the playoffs. However, he was a pedestrian 24-24 over the last three seasons.

The new coach coming in will have pieces to work with - the offense is fully loaded. With Pro Bowlers Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall, rookie wideout Eddie Royal and a young offensive line, the Broncos finished with the second-best offense in the league.

It's that defense that needs work. The Broncos gave up 448 points this season, third-worst in the NFL.

Defensive deficiencies aside, Ekuban thinks the team is on the right path.

"Whoever comes in is going to have a well-stocked team that should be ready to go," said Ekuban, a pending free agent who hopes to be back. "As any year, some things are going to change. But I wouldn't touch that offense ... They did a tremendous job. Wish we could've helped."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2008574176_apfbnshanahanfired.html

From Michael Lombardi:

"One thing I do know is that Denver, despite its financial constraints, is the prime job in the NFL right now. It has a QB and a left tackle, and it can only get better on defense. This is the best job out there, and I suspect the best defensive coaches available will be in line to take it. "

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/diner-news-denver-fallout.html




I remember the pundits on ESPN saying the same kinds of things. I know there is a difference in opinion. I just don't think it makes much sense to say that McDaniels had a harder job than Mike Smith, or Tony Sporano and they won in their first year with the team.

Like I've said before, although I am pretty anti-McDaniels right now, I would ultimately love to see him succeed. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong, but right now I just don't see this team getting better.

I'm glad you included Michael Lombardi in there. He's the only one you cited
whom I know whose attic windows are all shut. Burger Bill sometimes is as
clueless as Tiger Woods at a conference on celibacy.

Anyway, there is no doubt that Denver was considered a premium coaching
opportunity--and it still would be. I give Mr. Bowlen a lion's share of credit for
that.

And there is no doubt the offense was loaded with talent. It still is, except
now at center and left guard--and those were manned by the same people
who excelled the year before (age just caught up with them, apparently).

But just look at that defense (if you must):

Champ Bailey
Elvis Dumervil
D.J. Williams (okay, we have all the talent out of the way now)
Ebenezer Ekuban
John Engleberger
DeWayne Robertson
Jamie Winborn
Nate Webster
Dré Bly
Marquand Manuel
Marlon McCree

How many of those guys could start for any other team, unless one is just
starved for a player at his position (as in Bly)? How many are still around
today?

McDaniels didn't inherit all that talent, when the team as a whole is considered.
And some of the talent he did inherit came with baggage (as in Cutler and
Marshall, for instance) that served to derail much of the progress he was
trying to make.

I am really not impressed with what was left of the 2008 team. My posts have
proven that I have not supported McDaniels in every instance, but I believe
he has done a fine job in bringing this team along toward improvement, given
what he had to work with.

-----

[spikerman]

The lack of talent you cite on defense is valid Top, especially in the front 7 which is why I was surprised he didn't focus on it more in the offseason. IMO, he should have focused most of the draft and free agency there.

[Hoser]

For all of the "the cupboard was bare" talk I seem to remember that when Shanahan was fired, the football experts said that the Denver job was the best job available because of all of the talent on the team. How did the team go from that position to having so little talent that despite McDaniels' best efforts he could do no better than Shanahan's last year?

I think all the "talent" everybody was referring to was Cutler.

One of the things I like about our team is that in 2008 if Cutler gets injured and Orton is our backup we probably win 3-4 games. Now in 2009 with Orton as the starter we win 8 games and beat several playoff teams and take a couple others down to the wire (Indy, Philly).

While we certainly weren't awesome this year, it seems like we're more of a team, not just riding on the arm of one player. I don't think we won a single game in 08 where Cutler had a poor game.

[Hoser]

Also, lets remember in 2008 we beat just two playoff teams and played a total of 4 against teams that ended up in the post season. Also don't forget one of those wins was San Diego who finished 8-8 and it was a game we should have lost (Thanks Ed). The other two were Atlanta and Miami who lost their only playoff games.

This year we beat the Patriots, Cowboys, Chargers (Legitimately), and Bengals (Lucky, I know). Our schedule was balls to the walls hard as well with 7 playoff teams in the lineup. There is no doubt that everybody took a big collective *gulp* when they saw this years schedule.

In 2008 we had a creampuff schedule and our opponents had a combined 1 playoff win. This years 8-8 record is far more impressive than last years 8-8 record IMO.

[spikerman]

I think all the "talent" everybody was referring to was Cutler.

One of the things I like about our team is that in 2008 if Cutler gets injured and Orton is our backup we probably win 3-4 games. Now in 2009 with Orton as the starter we win 8 games and beat several playoff teams and take a couple others down to the wire (Indy, Philly).

While we certainly weren't awesome this year, it seems like we're more of a team, not just riding on the arm of one player. I don't think we won a single game in 08 where Cutler had a poor game.

I think it was Cutler, Clady, Marshall, and Scheffler along with what was supposed to be a good offensive line overall. Either way, there wasn't a team looking for a coach with more pieces in place when Shanahan was fired. IMO, there were more weaknesses at the start of this season than at the end of last season.

[topscribe]

Also, lets remember in 2008 we beat just two playoff teams and played a total of 4 against teams that ended up in the post season. Also don't forget one of those wins was San Diego who finished 8-8 and it was a game we should have lost (Thanks Ed). The other two were Atlanta and Miami who lost their only playoff games.

This year we beat the Patriots, Cowboys, Chargers (Legitimately), and Bengals (Lucky, I know). Our schedule was balls to the walls hard as well with 7 playoff teams in the lineup. There is no doubt that everybody took a big collective *gulp* when they saw this years schedule.

In 2008 we had a creampuff schedule and our opponents had a combined 1 playoff win. This years 8-8 record is far more impressive than last years 8-8 record IMO.

I'm not so sure the Bengals game is one the Broncos should have lost.

Remember, Marshall dropped a sure TD pass that would have won it . . .

-----

[Hoser]

I'm not so sure the Bengals game is one the Broncos should have lost.

Remember, Marshall dropped a sure TD pass that would have won it . . .

-----

Do you mean Chargers game?

And even though Marshall dropped a TD pass, that mistake is on us as a team. The refs handed us a win because the game would have been over for sure.

[topscribe]

Do you mean Chargers game?

And even though Marshall dropped a TD pass, that mistake is on us as a team. The refs handed us a win because the game would have been over for sure.

No, Marshall dropped a 50-yard TD pass in the Bengals game with nothing but grass behind him.

-----

[Hoser]

No, Marshall dropped a 50-yard TD pass in the Bengals game with nothing but grass behind him.

-----

Ah okay. I was watching that game online and it was cutting out a bunch so I guess I missed it. Definitely didn't miss the Holy Stokely though :D

But yeah, I didn't say we should have lost the Bengals game, just said it was lucky, and the only reason I included that is to throw a bone to people that would use that to attack my argument.

[Lonestar]

And yet Nolan was supposed to make an allstar defense with what we had? McD is the one who makes the moves, it wasnt rocket science about what the main issues are with this team especially on defense. How is it the rest of the planet knows whats wrong with the Broncos but McDaniels doesnt? :lol:



I think everyone wanted to see ore talent on the DL .. But remember that Fields was his hand picked guy as a FA, so he just may have been responsible for us not looking deeper in the FA area and Draft class.

I'm not sure on this, but I would suspect I'm pretty close on this.

This is something anyone that was not in the war room will never know for sure.

[topscribe]

I think everyone wanted to see ore talent on the DL .. But remember that Fields was his hand picked guy as a FA, so he just may have been responsible for us not looking deeper in the FA area and Draft class.

I'm not sure on this, but I would suspect I'm pretty close on this.

This is something anyone that was not in the war room will never know for sure.

Yes, Fields was the guy Nolan wanted. But he was also the best available at
the time.

Remember, about all that was left on the field were the corners and a missed
swath or two (if you're a farmer).

-----

[Lonestar]

I think all the "talent" everybody was referring to was Cutler.

One of the things I like about our team is that in 2008 if Cutler gets injured and Orton is our backup we probably win 3-4 games. Now in 2009 with Orton as the starter we win 8 games and beat several playoff teams and take a couple others down to the wire (Indy, Philly).

While we certainly weren't awesome this year, it seems like we're more of a team, not just riding on the arm of one player. I don't think we won a single game in 08 where Cutler had a poor game.

outstanding commentary, we were a better team in 09.


Also, lets remember in 2008 we beat just two playoff teams and played a total of 4 against teams that ended up in the post season. Also don't forget one of those wins was San Diego who finished 8-8 and it was a game we should have lost (Thanks Ed). The other two were Atlanta and Miami who lost their only playoff games.

This year we beat the Patriots, Cowboys, Chargers (Legitimately), and Bengals (Lucky, I know). Our schedule was balls to the walls hard as well with 7 playoff teams in the lineup. There is no doubt that everybody took a big collective *gulp* when they saw this years schedule.

In 2008 we had a creampuff schedule and our opponents had a combined 1 playoff win. This years 8-8 record is far more impressive than last years 8-8 record IMO.


I for one was trying to figure out IF we could win as many as 4 games with this years schedule. I looked hard and fast on this one when I was trying to predict W-L's.

Only a few folks could have dreamed we would have been 6-0 at the bye. NO ONE would have put hard earned cash on it.

Now it did not turn out like I thought it would because I thought we would improve as time went on.

We did not and because of injuries and lack of talent on the LOS we digressed.

[Lonestar]

Yes, Fields was the guy Nolan wanted. But he was also the best available at
the time.

Remember, about all that was left on the field were the corners and a missed
swath or two (if you're a farmer).

-----


There were others better on the table but we were not going to sell the farm to get them. But he did stake a lot on him and he played great for awhile. but you just can't win consistently with a 305 pound NT. IMHO

[topscribe]

There were others better on the table but we were not going to sell the farm to get them. But he did stake a lot on him and he played great for awhile. but you just can't win consistently with a 305 pound NT. IMHO

Actually, Fields is more like 314. But that is still lightweight by NFL standards, of course.

*and I thought I was big* :shocked:

-----

[Ziggy]

I think it was Cutler, Clady, Marshall, and Scheffler along with what was supposed to be a good offensive line overall. Either way, there wasn't a team looking for a coach with more pieces in place when Shanahan was fired. IMO, there were more weaknesses at the start of this season than at the end of last season.

You think that the Broncos had more talent than the Jets?

[Lonestar]

Actually, Fields is more like 314. But that is still lightweight by NFL standards, of course.

*and I thought I was big* :shocked:

-----

Ok I'll give you that one, i had read somewhere he was 305 or so at seasons end.

BUT even at 314, is puuuuny in the NFL.

some folks are saying we had all this talent on offense and for the most part we had outstanding from the year before. But how much of was TEAM talent and how much was ME or I talent.

That is the whole key IMHO, if they are only out there for a new contract, then what have you once they get it.

We had a great OLINE in 2008, but with one injury to harris the house of cards fell.

Had not injuries happened on the team well who knows how much better we may have been.

The defense has been discussed ad nauseam and we all agree that it HAD to BE BLOWN up.

[BroncoJoe]

Um, who's paying for that owner's cushy office? This team? His hand picked coach? Yeah, that's right, we are. Everyone who spends his or her hard earned dollars on this franchise is "part of the team" as far as I'm concerned.

I have a ton of respect for Pat Bowlen, I just think that his willingness to hand over the keys to every coach and just let them do what they think is best shows me:

A) He's probably not much of a "football mind" he's a business man. Which is okay as long as we win.
B) He didn't learn much from the "bad parts" of the Shanahan tenure as the coach.

If I didn't want to express my opinion, pro or con, I wouldn't be here, and neither would you.

Are you a season ticket holder?

[dogfish]

I think it was Cutler, Clady, Marshall, and Scheffler

and kuper, harris, royal, graham, stokley, champ, dumervil and DJ williams. . . this team wasn't lacking in talent-- piss poor in depth and balance, yes, but there was a solid amount of talent in place. . .


You think that the Broncos had more talent than the Jets?

not necessarily, but i don't know that they had less-- just in different places. . . also, the jets added bart scott, jim leonhard and lito sheppard in FA. . . they managed to get hot at the right time, but if the colts and bengals didn't lay down for them i don't think they would have even made the playoffs. . .

[Northman]

I think all the "talent" everybody was referring to was Cutler.

One of the things I like about our team is that in 2008 if Cutler gets injured and Orton is our backup we probably win 3-4 games. Now in 2009 with Orton as the starter we win 8 games and beat several playoff teams and take a couple others down to the wire (Indy, Philly).

While we certainly weren't awesome this year, it seems like we're more of a team, not just riding on the arm of one player. I don't think we won a single game in 08 where Cutler had a poor game.

Same can be said about Orton. However, Orton got a LOT more help than Jay did in 08' from the defense and running game.

[CoachChaz]

These threads make it harder and harder to bother logging in every day

[claymore]

These threads make it harder and harder to bother logging in every day

Fan base is divided. It could take a couple years at the longest to work its way out. And for some of us it may never be the same.

[CoachChaz]

Fan base is divided. It could take a couple years at the longest to work its way out. And for some of us it may never be the same.

Which to me is ridiculous. I love this team and this game as much as anyone, but at the end of the day...i have no control over it. They could go 0-16 for the next 20 years and you know what? I'll still be a Broncos fan. I can understand being disappointed about some things, but people go to excessive levels. Every day I expect to see someone post a thread about McDaniels SAT scores and how he was a horrible hire because they were'nt as high as their own...or a thread showing how McD's coaching style is influenced by the vehicle he drives.

The incessant hatred of someone who has accomplished exactly what the previous coach had been and MORE than most other NFL coaches have is just tiring. When there are 12 threads about how pathetic our coach is after ONE YEAR, it gets really boring, redundant and flat out narrow-minded around here. This forum is full of diverse and intelligent people and yet we all fall into the same trap of...well...basically whining about a football team. We're better than that, but seem to choose not to be lately. That, to me, is more disappointing than any decisions or results that come from the Denver organization

[claymore]

Which to me is ridiculous. I love this team and this game as much as anyone, but at the end of the day...i have no control over it. They could go 0-16 for the next 20 years and you know what? I'll still be a Broncos fan. I can understand being disappointed about some things, but people go to excessive levels. Every day I expect to see someone post a thread about McDaniels SAT scores and how he was a horrible hire because they were'nt as high as their own...or a thread showing how McD's coaching style is influenced by the vehicle he drives.

The incessant hatred of someone who has accomplished exactly what the previous coach had been and MORE than most other NFL coaches have is just tiring. When there are 12 threads about how pathetic our coach is after ONE YEAR, it gets really boring, redundant and flat out narrow-minded around here. This forum is full of diverse and intelligent people and yet we all fall into the same trap of...well...basically whining about a football team. We're better than that, but seem to choose not to be lately. That, to me, is more disappointing than any decisions or results that come from the Denver organization

I care alot less than I did roughly a year ago. But you see it different than those of us that have had a hard time.

To me the feeling is like knowing something bad is going to happen, and no one would or will listen, and when it happens eeveryone acts suprised, or ok with what has happened.

Its almost like a bad dream.

Im not a very loving, or emotional guy towards people. There are very few things on Earth I truly care about. The Broncos are one of those things.

I have taken a step back, and will never love them as much as I did.

Im not going to say I learned priorities, because they are still the same to me, God, Family Country, Broncos, ..... and anything else.

I could care less what happens in Haiti, but I care about the Broncos. Its just the way I am.

[CoachChaz]

I care alot less than I did roughly a year ago. But you see it different than those of us that have had a hard time.

To me the feeling is like knowing something bad is going to happen, and no one would or will listen, and when it happens eeveryone acts suprised, or ok with what has happened.

Its almost like a bad dream.

Im not a very loving, or emotional guy towards people. There are very few things on Earth I truly care about. The Broncos are one of those things.

I have taken a step back, and will never love them as much as I did.

Im not going to say I learned priorities, because they are still the same to me, God, Family Country, Broncos, ..... and anything else.

I could care less what happens in Haiti, but I care about the Broncos. Its just the way I am.

...and all of this is valid. I can completely understand being disappointed. The area that I'm completely burnt out on is when one Broncos fan attacks another Broncos fan for having a different opinion on a coach. or when intelligent fans start creating different immature ways of attacking the coaches and owner and everyone else simply because something didnt happen the way that fan thinks it should have.

People around here are better than that and while I have disappointments in this team as much as anyone...I think I am even MORE disappointed with the fans and some of the media. That's all I'm saying

[claymore]

...and all of this is valid. I can completely understand being disappointed. The area that I'm completely burnt out on is when one Broncos fan attacks another Broncos fan for having a different opinion on a coach. or when intelligent fans start creating different immature ways of attacking the coaches and owner and everyone else simply because something didnt happen the way that fan thinks it should have.

People around here are better than that and while I have disappointments in this team as much as anyone...I think I am even MORE disappointed with the fans and some of the media. That's all I'm saying

Alot of folks have gotten personal over it. Id like to say I havent done it, but ive slipped a couple of times.

I Also hate the name calling, of current coach, and former players.

[CoachChaz]

Alot of folks have gotten personal over it. Id like to say I havent done it, but ive slipped a couple of times.

I Also hate the name calling, of current coach, and former players.

It's easy to get caught up in it...especially when there are so many people here that force their opinion and provide blind hatred/love on both sides of the argument. Like i said...I just expect better from the people here and the adolescent slander and commentary is just getting boring for me.

[Nomad]

Alot of folks have gotten personal over it. Id like to say I havent done it, but ive slipped a couple of times.

I Also hate the name calling, of current coach, and former players.

Nothing a good beer can't cure or does it make it worse:confused::D

[elsid13]

Nothing a good beer can't cure or does it make it worse:confused::D

A good beer is always the solution.

[Superchop 7]

This has everything to do with Shanahan. If the team was GREAT the last year he was here - he would still be here. You can't expect a new coach to make a team perfect his first year, that obviously was nothing more than an average team when he took over.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

Shannys huge mistake was "not" hiring Nolan.

The number 2 offense combined with the number 7 defense ? scary good.

Carol, 24 months from now......Josh is gone, Shanny is on top of the world.

You can look back and thank Joe Ellis.

[elsid13]

At the beginning of the season, I posted that I thought McDaniels was overextending himself with all the roles he was playing (HC, OC, QB Coach) on the team. I still think that he is. He needs to focus more on the HC job and less on the OC/QB coach part.

[topscribe]

At the beginning of the season, I posted that I thought McDaniels was overextending himself with all the roles he was playing (HC, OC, QB Coach) on the team. I still think that he is. He needs to focus more on the HC job and less on the OC/QB coach part.

That may well be true, except that I hope McD delegates the OC part better but
stays on the QB. Probably no one can coach a QB better, save possibly Shanny
and/or Kubiak.

-----

[elsid13]

That may well be true, except that I hope McD delegates the OC part better but
stays on the QB. Probably no one can coach a QB better, save possibly Shanny.

-----

Shanahan had some very good QB coaches that help develop the guys that played for him. Shanahan oversaw the development but guys like Kubes, Bates etc are the guys made our QBs.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

Shannys huge mistake was "not" hiring Nolan.

The number 2 offense combined with the number 7 defense ? scary good.

Carol, 24 months from now......Josh is gone, Shanny is on top of the world.

You can look back and thank Joe Ellis.

Remember your other "bold prediction" which did not pan out???????

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52004

At this point, I can guarantee LAST PLACE in the AFC West.

I will bring back the thread at the end of the year.

Have a nice day.

GO BRONCOS.

[turftoad]

One would think that a coach coming in would see the offense and say "wow, now i just need a good DC and some solid defensive players and i think we have a real shot here".

Exactly.

We should have hired Rex Ryan.

[topscribe]

Shanahan had some very good QB coaches that help develop the guys that played for him. Shanahan oversaw the development but guys like Kubes, Bates etc are the guys made our QBs.

That is true. And, come to think of it, McDaniels has McCoy, who is also known
for his QB coaching. I wonder how much McD is allowing McCoy to do just that . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

Might of turned out different had McD given Nolan more to work with in the Dline. Guess he never thought of that. lol

He gave him fields the one guy he really wanted. :D

If the run blitzing was really working I could understand nolan getting upset but allowing a couple three RB's to set club records, and to be one tenth of a yard per attempt from being the worst in the league.

Perhaps he promised to get some better players for the DL, since he was directing him run blitz LESS not eliminate it from the playbook.

Looks to me like a DC that was begining to think he he was bigger than the TEAM.
Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

[arapaho2]

I recall, as the 2008 season progressed, how people were talking about how
little talent there was on the club, especially on the defensive side. I also
recall how, before the season started, most had the Broncos winning from two
to four games, which they had to be basing on the 2008 team because nobody
knew much about the 2009 team.

Whoever thought the 2008 team had a lot of talent was self-delusional . . .

-----


the little talent was the defensive side...not the offensive side which is the side mcd came in and dismantled

and for most fans predictions..again that was based on a few things.
1st being...he traded away a 25 yr old probowl qb that pretty much carried the team the year before
2nd the lack of defensive playmakers and dline..of which he used the 12th pick on a rd
3rd being the switch to a 3-4 from the 4-3

but put it in a realistic view of the fans ....how many games do you think we would have won this year without the surprise improvments on the defensive side..4-5?

[turftoad]

He gave him fields the one guy he really wanted. :D

If the run blitzing was really working I could understand nolan getting upset but allowing a couple three RB's to set club records, and to be one tenth of a yard per attempt from being the worst in the league.

Perhaps he promised to get some better players for the DL, since he was directing him run blitz LESS not eliminate it from the playbook.

Looks to me like a DC that was begining to think he he was bigger than the TEAM.
Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

Looks clear to me and the majority that the only one that thinks he's bigger than the team is McD.

[topscribe]

the little talent was the defensive side...not the offensive side which is the side mcd came in and dismantled

and for most fans predictions..again that was based on a few things.
1st being...he traded away a 25 yr old probowl qb that pretty much carried the team the year before
2nd the lack of defensive playmakers and dline..of which he used the 12th pick on a rd
3rd being the switch to a 3-4 from the 4-3

but put it in a realistic view of the fans ....how many games do you think we would have won this year without the surprise improvments on the defensive side..4-5?

Of course, by "dismantling" you mean the Cutler trade. First, the initial decision
to trade Cutler was made by Mr. Bowlen. He is the one who announced,
essentially, "I've had it. He's gone."

Second, I believe it was a good move, whether or not Cutler becomes a star
elsewhere. You look at it as their moving out a "Pro Bowl" QB (an honor that
actually should have gone to Rivers, IMO). Cutler is not yet even a "good"
QB, and he will not be until he can sort out his receivers from the opponents'.

Everybody glorifies Cutler because of his arm. Well, Ryan Leaf, Jeff George,
Steve Tensi, and Bobby Douglas all had much stronger arms than Joe Montana,
Bart Starr, Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning. Most of them had greater
mobility, too. But the latter four had it "between the ears." They just had "it."
They also had something else none of the former four had: Super Bowl rings.

Cutler has none of that, so far. In fact, Kyle Orton had a better year in nearly
every statistical category than did Cutler.

But what the FO did when they traded Cutler was to jettison an attitude that
threatened to derail what the Broncos were trying to accomplish as a team.
Marshall is the next to go if the Broncos can get the appropriate value back
for him. One more "me" guy gone, to be replaced by a "team" guy.

I have not been happy with everything this FO has done, and I have said so
without qualification. But the "dismantling" has my support.

If you think that a "beast" WR means a SB ring, then let's count up how many
Moss, T.O., and Ochocinco have among them . . .

And if you want to look at the QB with the most SB rings, look at the guy with
on of the most pedestrian arms and so-so mobility: Joe Montana. But, you see,
he was a team guy . . .

-----

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Are you a season ticket holder?

No. What does that really have to do with anything? If you're curious about my "financial worth" as a fan then you're as out to lunch as the "rational fan". I buy ball caps, jerseys, license plates, hoodies, jackets, T-shirts and all the rest and I pay to go see the Broncos whenever they are within reasonable driving distance.

Not all of us have the good fortune to love the Broncos and live in Colorado. I'm also in the military, so paying the exorbitant prices for season tickets that I'd rarely, if ever, get a chance to use serves no purpose.

Does being a season ticket holder get me into some exclusive "super cool fan club" or something? Does it make my opinion as a fan more or less valid? I'm now extremely curious as to why it has anything to do with my previous post.

[dogfish]

These threads make it harder and harder to bother logging in every day

come on coach, hang in there-- we need ya. . . especially with the draft coming up. . .






Im not going to say I learned priorities, because they are still the same to me, God, Family Country, Broncos, ..... and anything else.


oh, what?? bitch, you LIED to me! i thought you said you loved me. . .


*sobs*

[dogfish]

At the beginning of the season, I posted that I thought McDaniels was overextending himself with all the roles he was playing (HC, OC, QB Coach) on the team. I still think that he is. He needs to focus more on the HC job and less on the OC/QB coach part.

when he said he was going to call the plays, i was concerned about this as well-- it's a LOT to handle, and i think that might have been reflected in the stale play calling. . . if we see the same play predictable play calling this year, i hope JMFMCD will at least consider delegating some of that. . .

good coaches are smart enough to put a quality staff around them-- parcells had belichick as his DC, ditka had buddy ryan. . . cowher had an all-world coaching staff, and tomlin still had lebeau when they won the bowl. . . shanahan had kubiak, gibbs and turner. . . etc etc. . .

[dogfish]

No. What does that really have to do with anything? If you're curious about my "financial worth" as a fan then you're as out to lunch as the "rational fan". I buy ball caps, jerseys, license plates, hoodies, jackets, T-shirts and all the rest and I pay to go see the Broncos whenever they are within reasonable driving distance.

Not all of us have the good fortune to love the Broncos and live in Colorado. I'm also in the military, so paying the exorbitant prices for season tickets that I'd rarely, if ever, get a chance to use serves no purpose.

Does being a season ticket holder get me into some exclusive "super cool fan club" or something? Does it make my opinion as a fan more or less valid? I'm now extremely curious as to why it has anything to do with my previous post.

baldy joe, you just got served. . . . :heh:

[Ziggy]

One would think that a coach coming in would see the offense and say "wow, now i just need a good DC and some solid defensive players and i think we have a real shot here".

And a quote from Northman on January 2nd....

"Josh will learn from that. But, like i stated in my initial post. BB doesnt put up with flava clowns either no matter who it is. At the end of the day its McD's team and he can run it how he best sees fit. If that means he needs to call out players for not stepping up in crunch time than thats what he will do. Marshall isnt the virgin mary when it comes to being honest so ill take McD's word over Brandon right now. Like you said, i think ultimately Denver is heading in the right direction and if certain players dont want to be a part of that than see ya later. I just hope all the fair weathered fans go with them."

And on January 3rd, Northman posted:

"At least your honest, ill give you that. A lot of the guys who talk shit try to play it off like they are being fair and reasonable. At least your up front so i give you mad props for being honest. I dont care who the coach is as i will give them the opportunity to do what they need to do. I hated Phillips when he was coaching but still gave him the chance to succeed. In the end he couldnt do it and if McD cant do it he too will be replaced. But, one year just isnt enough time for any coach yet some want him gone already. Its ok to like certain players, i get that. But in the end its about the team and winning and thats all i care about. If in the next couple of years McD cant get us back on track then it will be time to look elsewhere. But he should be able to do it his way. I know if any of us were coaching we would be doing it our way as well so its hypocritical for some of the people on this board to constantly cry about some of the changes that are being made. If McD thinks what he is doing is best for the team than let him do it. In the end he's the one that has to answer for the moves if they dont work out. The Broncos will always be here as will I win or lose."

[HORSEPOWER 56]

And a quote from Northman on January 2nd....

"Josh will learn from that. But, like i stated in my initial post. BB doesnt put up with flava clowns either no matter who it is. At the end of the day its McD's team and he can run it how he best sees fit. If that means he needs to call out players for not stepping up in crunch time than thats what he will do. Marshall isnt the virgin mary when it comes to being honest so ill take McD's word over Brandon right now. Like you said, i think ultimately Denver is heading in the right direction and if certain players dont want to be a part of that than see ya later. I just hope all the fair weathered fans go with them."

And on January 3rd, Northman posted:

"At least your honest, ill give you that. A lot of the guys who talk shit try to play it off like they are being fair and reasonable. At least your up front so i give you mad props for being honest. I dont care who the coach is as i will give them the opportunity to do what they need to do. I hated Phillips when he was coaching but still gave him the chance to succeed. In the end he couldnt do it and if McD cant do it he too will be replaced. But, one year just isnt enough time for any coach yet some want him gone already. Its ok to like certain players, i get that. But in the end its about the team and winning and thats all i care about. If in the next couple of years McD cant get us back on track then it will be time to look elsewhere. But he should be able to do it his way. I know if any of us were coaching we would be doing it our way as well so its hypocritical for some of the people on this board to constantly cry about some of the changes that are being made. If McD thinks what he is doing is best for the team than let him do it. In the end he's the one that has to answer for the moves if they dont work out. The Broncos will always be here as will I win or lose."

Yeah, but folks can only get kicked in the nuts so much before they realize it hurts. That was when we still had a DC that made us #7 in the league. Now we don't. Northman became a different guy when Nolan was shown the door.

What will be your trigger Zig? McDaniels canning Orton? Letting Doom walk? Demoting Ryan Clady because he doesn't fit his "power blocking" scheme? Releasing Eddy Royal because he's not Wes Welker? How about if the Broncos go 4-12 this year? What will it take for you? Every fan has a breaking point before they say - This is the last straw, McD is ****ing up! Some have just reached theirs. You may or may not reach yours.

It was no different when Shanny was here and his drafting, his QB controversies, his unwillingness to fix the D-line, the Browncos, his unwillingness to bring in a RB who wasn't just a piece of cheap junk journeyman, his revolving carousel at DC, etc.

[topscribe]

Yeah, but folks can only get kicked in the nuts so much before they realize it hurts. That was when we still had a DC that made us #7 in the league. Now we don't. Northman became a different guy when Nolan was shown the door.

What will be your trigger Zig? McDaniels canning Orton? Letting Doom walk? Demoting Ryan Clady because he doesn't fit his "power blocking" scheme? Releasing Eddy Royal because he's not Wes Welker? How about if the Broncos go 4-12 this year? What will it take for you? Every fan has a breaking point before they say - This is the last straw, McD is ****ing up! Some have just reached theirs. You may or may not reach yours.

It was no different when Shanny was here and his drafting, his QB controversies, his unwillingness to fix the D-line, the Browncos, his unwillingness to bring in a RB who wasn't just a piece of cheap junk journeyman, his revolving carousel at DC, etc.

I'll bet you are satisfied you presented a great argument here. But what you
did is to draw a lot of assumptions from out of your imagination.

What you are still hanging onto is glossing over the evidence that Nolan may
have found the door all by himself. You also glossed over that the #7 ranking
is misleading in consideration of the fact that the Broncos were #26 in run
defense.

You also drew some faulty inferences about Shanny, too, but this is not the
place to get into that.

The point is, you cannot gloss over any of the evidence and come up with a
fair conclusion. In fact, if you consider the evidence, you just may find you
cannot come to a fair conclusion at all just yet . . .

-----

[Broncolingus]

No problem with the article (...although, what is anyone in the front office going to say but that?).

...got to give dude a few seasons to see. If things get worse (or stay same for 2-3 seasons), he gets canned. If things get better, then the choices are right...

At this point, I'd like to see Denver put together a friggin 16 game season...I don't know if I even care so much about the playoffs next year, but this (fast start) slow finish 'culture' has got to ******* change next year...

THAT's the biggest issue IMO...

[Northman]

Which to me is ridiculous. I love this team and this game as much as anyone, but at the end of the day...i have no control over it. They could go 0-16 for the next 20 years and you know what? I'll still be a Broncos fan. I can understand being disappointed about some things, but people go to excessive levels. Every day I expect to see someone post a thread about McDaniels SAT scores and how he was a horrible hire because they were'nt as high as their own...or a thread showing how McD's coaching style is influenced by the vehicle he drives.

The incessant hatred of someone who has accomplished exactly what the previous coach had been and MORE than most other NFL coaches have is just tiring. When there are 12 threads about how pathetic our coach is after ONE YEAR, it gets really boring, redundant and flat out narrow-minded around here. This forum is full of diverse and intelligent people and yet we all fall into the same trap of...well...basically whining about a football team. We're better than that, but seem to choose not to be lately. That, to me, is more disappointing than any decisions or results that come from the Denver organization

To be fair mate, there is plenty of homerism as well. The constant excuse threads get tiring and annoying as all get out. And all the folks who see straight down the line get lost in the aftermath.

[Northman]

A good beer is always the solution.

Mmmmmm Beeeeeeer. :salute:

[Northman]

And a quote from Northman on January 2nd....

"Josh will learn from that. But, like i stated in my initial post. BB doesnt put up with flava clowns either no matter who it is. At the end of the day its McD's team and he can run it how he best sees fit. If that means he needs to call out players for not stepping up in crunch time than thats what he will do. Marshall isnt the virgin mary when it comes to being honest so ill take McD's word over Brandon right now. Like you said, i think ultimately Denver is heading in the right direction and if certain players dont want to be a part of that than see ya later. I just hope all the fair weathered fans go with them."

And on January 3rd, Northman posted:

"At least your honest, ill give you that. A lot of the guys who talk shit try to play it off like they are being fair and reasonable. At least your up front so i give you mad props for being honest. I dont care who the coach is as i will give them the opportunity to do what they need to do. I hated Phillips when he was coaching but still gave him the chance to succeed. In the end he couldnt do it and if McD cant do it he too will be replaced. But, one year just isnt enough time for any coach yet some want him gone already. Its ok to like certain players, i get that. But in the end its about the team and winning and thats all i care about. If in the next couple of years McD cant get us back on track then it will be time to look elsewhere. But he should be able to do it his way. I know if any of us were coaching we would be doing it our way as well so its hypocritical for some of the people on this board to constantly cry about some of the changes that are being made. If McD thinks what he is doing is best for the team than let him do it. In the end he's the one that has to answer for the moves if they dont work out. The Broncos will always be here as will I win or lose."


So what your saying is that i cant see some good things and see some bad things from our HC? See, this is the garbage that pisses me off to no end. You fools sit there and act like i have to be on one side or the other. I look at the entire package and back when i made those statements (as Horse mentioned) i was expecting us to keep our DC and defensive strategy intact. Now, because our HC has taken upon himself to put his hands in that cookie jar im not a happy camper about it. Do i still like some of the others things he does? Yea, but meddling in his assistant coaches duties isnt one of them. So go ahead and quote me boy i dont care. Im more objective about this situation than a whole lot of you. The stuff im saying now is the same shit ive been saying since day one. So go ahead and nitpick with selective memory just be sure to take a look at all my posts before trying to call me out.

[Ziggy]

Yeah, but folks can only get kicked in the nuts so much before they realize it hurts. That was when we still had a DC that made us #7 in the league. Now we don't. Northman became a different guy when Nolan was shown the door.

What will be your trigger Zig? McDaniels canning Orton? Letting Doom walk? Demoting Ryan Clady because he doesn't fit his "power blocking" scheme? Releasing Eddy Royal because he's not Wes Welker? How about if the Broncos go 4-12 this year? What will it take for you? Every fan has a breaking point before they say - This is the last straw, McD is ****ing up! Some have just reached theirs. You may or may not reach yours.

It was no different when Shanny was here and his drafting, his QB controversies, his unwillingness to fix the D-line, the Browncos, his unwillingness to bring in a RB who wasn't just a piece of cheap junk journeyman, his revolving carousel at DC, etc.

The point that North made less than 3 weeks ago was that McD should be given the time and opportunity to do things his own way. That is exactly what he is doing. Now, North is beginning to whine because McD's way isn't exactly like his. It doesn't change what he said should be allowed to happen. Neither you or I know the circumstances behind the departure of Nolan. Only those in the room at the time of that meeting know, not writers or forum junkies like us. North stated that one year just isn't enough, and he should get more time before we bury him. 3 weeks later, he's going against everything he just said. That's called being a hypocrite.

What's my trigger? I'm a diehard Broncos fan, and a diehard Bowlen fan. Pat B will always know more about building a championship team than you and I, and I trust his judgement in this matter. McD inherited a team that was nearly depleted of talent along both the offensive and defensive lines. That's a sure formula for watching the super bowl every year from the living room couch. It's going to take a minimum of 2-3 years to change that, so Ill give him at least that much time. Does that answer your question?

[topscribe]

So what your saying is that i cant see some good things and see some bad things from our HC? See, this is the garbage that pisses me off to no end. You fools sit there and act like i have to be on one side or the other. I look at the entire package and back when i made those statements (as Horse mentioned) i was expecting us to keep our DC and defensive strategy intact. Now, because our HC has taken upon himself to put his hands in that cookie jar im not a happy camper about it. Do i still like some of the others things he does? Yea, but meddling in his assistant coaches duties isnt one of them. So go ahead and quote me boy i dont care. Im more objective about this situation than a whole lot of you. The stuff im saying now is the same shit ive been saying since day one. So go ahead and nitpick with selective memory, just be sure to take a look at all my posts before trying to call me out.

There's no need for that, my friend. You're letting your temper get the best of you.

I agree that McD should have given Nolan autonomy with the defense. Maybe
McD needs to learn to delegate better. That seems the case to me. However,
I also realize I am on the outside looking in, and I don't know all the facts from
out here. McD is our coach. All we can do is to throw our support behind him
and hope he is headed in the right direction. I think he is. That is my opinion.
But it's only an opinion. By the same token, yours is an opinion, too . . .

-----

[Northman]

There's no need for that, my friend. You're letting your temper get the best of you.

I agree that McD should have given Nolan autonomy with the defense. Maybe
McD needs to learn to delegate better. That seems the case to me. However,
I also realize I am on the outside looking in, and I don't know all the facts from
out here. McD is our coach. All we can do is to throw our support behind him
and hope he is headed in the right direction. I think he is. That is my opinion.
But it's only an opinion. By the same token, yours is an opinion, too . . .

-----


But its really not about support Top. Nothing i say here can change his status in Broncoland. The thing is, Nolan is gone and im already over it. It doesnt mean i think we will be awesome next year but thats for McD to prove and nothing i say here can change that. But, if ******** like Ziggy want to start pulling posts to try and instigate shit without (surprise surprise) looking at the total package than im going to come at him. He was trolling no ifs ans or buts about it. The best thing i can hope for is that McD gets us back to winning. Thats all, but if i want to voice a concern over a move that is made i should have my right to do it. Why is it that people feel that the only thing that should be posted is positive material on this site? Seriously.

[topscribe]

But its really not about support Top. Nothing i say here can change his status in Broncoland. The thing is, Nolan is gone and im already over it. It doesnt mean i think we will be awesome next year but thats for McD to prove and nothing i say here can change that. But, if ******** like Ziggy want to start pulling posts to try and instigate shit without (surprise surprise) looking at the total package than im going to come at him. He was trolling no ifs ans or buts about it. The best thing i can hope for is that McD gets us back to winning. Thats all, but if i want to voice a concern over a move that is made i should have my right to do it. Why is it that people feel that the only thing that should be posted is positive material on this site? Seriously.

I would answer that, but I won't say anything negative. :laugh:

-----

[Northman]

I would answer that, but I won't say anything negative. :laugh:

-----

Touche.

[Davii]

:mod:

The topic is not each other gents. Keep it on topic and knock off the personal comments.

[topscribe]

C'mon guys . . .

-----

[Ziggy]

:mod:

The topic is not each other gents. Keep it on topic and knock off the personal comments.

Will do.

[Lonestar]

AS Davi said lets try to get

:focus:

[spikerman]

I know we're supposed to be back on topic, but I just want to say that North was pretty open and clear when he changed his stance on McDaniels. He was a pretty ardent supporter, but he changed his mind. It's not surprising that there are posts in which he espouses support for McD prior to changing his stance. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Ok, that's all I wanted to say. I know we're supposed to be back on topic. :vroam:

[Nomad]

McDaniels can't do it all, he'll learn! All the other stuff is speculation and I for one don't understand sometimes but at the same time can't control so I have to trust the organization I love which is the Denver Broncos!


Northman is a great guy and great fan and I could say the same for Ziggy, but I respect their opinions. We can just keep our chins up, hope for the best, and like I said before have a good beer!!:D :beer:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

The point that North made less than 3 weeks ago was that McD should be given the time and opportunity to do things his own way. That is exactly what he is doing. Now, North is beginning to whine because McD's way isn't exactly like his. It doesn't change what he said should be allowed to happen. Neither you or I know the circumstances behind the departure of Nolan. Only those in the room at the time of that meeting know, not writers or forum junkies like us. North stated that one year just isn't enough, and he should get more time before we bury him. 3 weeks later, he's going against everything he just said. That's called being a hypocrite.

What's my trigger? I'm a diehard Broncos fan, and a diehard Bowlen fan. Pat B will always know more about building a championship team than you and I, and I trust his judgement in this matter. McD inherited a team that was nearly depleted of talent along both the offensive and defensive lines. That's a sure formula for watching the super bowl every year from the living room couch. It's going to take a minimum of 2-3 years to change that, so Ill give him at least that much time. Does that answer your question?

So essentially, you're just happy to be here. Okay that's cool, too. That's the way you make it sound. It really doesn't matter what McDaniels does to the team that Bowlen trusted him to return to greatness and you're willing to give him 2-3 years to do that. That's fine and dandy.

There are three categories of Broncos fans right now:

1) Some of us think we see what he's doing (it's really not hard to see the personnel moves, they're pretty common knowledge) and don't care for it and have a hard time seeing where it's going to make us better. We lash out and criticize every move because few of them agree with what we think this team needs or should be.

2) Others of us are willing to give him more time to acquire the pieces for "his" puzzle so we can sit back and say "I told you so" later and bask in the glory of the new-look, playoff-bound Broncos. Or, after 2-3 years of mediocrity, show him the door. These people are generally supportive, but the support is somewhat skeptical. A "wait and see" approach. I think most folks fall into this category.

3) And some of us are absolutely convinced that no matter what happens that McDaniels can do no wrong, going so far as to bash every single player, coach, or front office person that parts ways with the new regime or to bash any poster on this board that isn't immediately 100% behind everything McDaniels has done so far. Going so far in some cases as to blame the ex-head coach that was fired for why McDaniels didn't make the playoffs because he left the team talentless and awash in undisciplined headcases and whiny, little baby, me-first players.

In short, just about everyone here falls into one of these categories. It only takes a nudge one way or the other to go from one category to the other. I think Northman just moved from 2 to 1 after the dismissal of Nolan whom he thought was in the best interests of the team to keep. From what I've read, most people here don't think we should've parted with Nolan so willingly. Only the category 3 fans are really behind this move.

To me, you appear to be a category 2 poster with a lot of category 3 feelings. If, by this time next year, you haven't seen the changes you want, you'll move more toward a category one, like some already have.

[Ziggy]

McDaniels has made some mistakes, to be sure. That's what you get when you hire a first time head coach and give him full reign over everything. He's done quite a few things that I don't like.

1. After hearing him admit that he was not fully prepared for last year's draft, I think it was a huge mistake to be aggressive. I think he should have done the opposite, taken a very conservative approach, and stockpile picks for this draft, which he has had a full year to prepare for.
2. I think he's handled some issues through the media that he should have kept in house.
3. I was advocating hiring Dom Capers rather than Nolan last season, but was pleasantly surpised with Nolan's success.
4. He did very little to upgrade the offensive line last season.

He has also done some very good things. I think a house cleaning was not only warranted, but needed. It's my opinion that a new coach should be given at least 2-3 years to remake a team. There are going to be some bumps along the way, but I'm betting that Pat Bowlen anticipated that when he hired him. How he handles those bumps will go a long way in determining his success here in Denver.

You can put me in whatever category you would like. I just classify myself as a Bronco fan.

[Northman]

McDaniels can't do it all, he'll learn! All the other stuff is speculation and I for one don't understand sometimes but at the same time can't control so I have to trust the organization I love which is the Denver Broncos!


Northman is a great guy and great fan and I could say the same for Ziggy, but I respect their opinions. We can just keep our chins up, hope for the best, and like I said before have a good beer!!:D :beer:

Ziggy and i are cool. Ive apologized for my behavior and we continue to forge on. At the end of the day we all want the same thing and that is for the Broncos to become elite again. Hopefully the current HC can get it done as it would be beneficial to all of us as fans. :beer:

[arapaho2]

Of course, by "dismantling" you mean the Cutler trade. First, the initial decision
to trade Cutler was made by Mr. Bowlen. He is the one who announced,
essentially, "I've had it. He's gone."

Second, I believe it was a good move, whether or not Cutler becomes a star
elsewhere. You look at it as their moving out a "Pro Bowl" QB (an honor that
actually should have gone to Rivers, IMO). Cutler is not yet even a "good"
QB, and he will not be until he can sort out his receivers from the opponents'.

Everybody glorifies Cutler because of his arm. Well, Ryan Leaf, Jeff George,
Steve Tensi, and Bobby Douglas all had much stronger arms than Joe Montana,
Bart Starr, Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning. Most of them had greater
mobility, too. But the latter four had it "between the ears." They just had "it."
They also had something else none of the former four had: Super Bowl rings.

Cutler has none of that, so far. In fact, Kyle Orton had a better year in nearly
every statistical category than did Cutler.

But what the FO did when they traded Cutler was to jettison an attitude that
threatened to derail what the Broncos were trying to accomplish as a team.
Marshall is the next to go if the Broncos can get the appropriate value back
for him. One more "me" guy gone, to be replaced by a "team" guy.

I have not been happy with everything this FO has done, and I have said so
without qualification. But the "dismantling" has my support.

If you think that a "beast" WR means a SB ring, then let's count up how many
Moss, T.O., and Ochocinco have among them . . .

And if you want to look at the QB with the most SB rings, look at the guy with
on of the most pedestrian arms and so-so mobility: Joe Montana. But, you see,
he was a team guy . . .

-----


i wonder if you thought the same about manning as a young player...im pretty sure he threw more picks in his first five years then has cutler......

whats funny though.....cutler never really had a ATTITUDE UNTIL MCD TRIED TO TRADE HIM

but then orton?..orton also had a better run game...a better oline...better wrs...and a better defense

i know you have this opinion that your view is fact.....but its far from it

[Lonestar]

McDaniels has made some mistakes, to be sure. That's what you get when you hire a first time head coach and give him full reign over everything. He's done quite a few things that I don't like.

1. After hearing him admit that he was not fully prepared for last year's draft, I think it was a huge mistake to be aggressive. I think he should have done the opposite, taken a very conservative approach, and stockpile picks for this draft, which he has had a full year to prepare for.
2. I think he's handled some issues through the media that he should have kept in house.
3. I was advocating hiring Dom Capers rather than Nolan last season, but was pleasantly surpised with Nolan's success.
4. He did very little to upgrade the offensive line last season.

He has also done some very good things. I think a house cleaning was not only warranted, but needed. It's my opinion that a new coach should be given at least 2-3 years to remake a team. There are going to be some bumps along the way, but I'm betting that Pat Bowlen anticipated that when he hired him. How he handles those bumps will go a long way in determining his success here in Denver.

You can put me in whatever category you would like. I just classify myself as a Bronco fan.


As far as the oLine was concerned I think he added a piece here and there and relied on the word from Dennison that all was okay and they would be able to make the transition OK.

ALso knowing that it was one of the best the year before making changes before he had a chance to evaluate them himself, he would have alienated just that many more players.

[topscribe]

i wonder if you thought the same about manning as a young player...im pretty sure he threw more picks in his first five years then has cutler......

whats funny though.....cutler never really had a ATTITUDE UNTIL MCD TRIED TO TRADE HIM

but then orton?..orton also had a better run game...a better oline...better wrs...and a better defense

i know you have this opinion that your view is fact.....but its far from it

How do you know what kind of attitude Cutler had? What you mean is that
Cutler didn't show an attitude until his run-in with McDaniels. You don't even
know for sure whether McDaniels "tried to trade him" since nobody outside the
FO knows for sure, either. You are making a whole lot of guesses and then
treating them as facts.

Okay, let's go back to Cutler last year (2008) when he had a better O-line and
rushing offense (#3 in YPC) than Orton did this year (#17).

Cutler had a lot more gross yards. So we can get this out of the way right
now. Everything else is almost even: Cutler 62.3%, Orton 62.1%; Cutler 7.3
Y/A, Orton 7.1 Y/A; Cutler 86.0 QBR, Orton 86.8 QBR -- oh yes, there is one
thing that was not even: Orton played hurt. Cutler did not.

That fact of it is, Orton this year matched what Cutler did last year with
essentially the same offense. It is true this year's defense was a little better,
but this year's schedule was tougher, and, as I said, Orton played hurt--the
first part of the season with a severely dislocated finger on his throwing hand
and the last part on a high ankle sprain.

Now, you can go back and scour alllllllll my posts on any board, and you will
not find where I have been involved in any Cutler/Orton debates. That is
because I have assiduously avoided them because I support both QBs.
Therefore, I am not interested in one now. I just provided some statistical
comparisons since you opened the door.

So then, I see you bolded my paragraph where I opined that the trade was a
good move, then you charged that you know that I believe my view is fact.

Now, let me see . . . you know McD tried to trade Cutler, you know what
Cutler's private attitude was (were you his house boy or something?), and
now you know that I take my opinion as fact.

My, my . . . you know so much, how can I compete with you? :coffee:

-----

[Lonestar]

Funny TOP when I read his post the first time I was struck the same way with the attitude comment.
IIRC jay had an attitude everytime someone errored himself included while on the field.

So much so that they had to take Grieses reserved sign for his sulking spot on the bench and put jays name on it.

The only time I remember him antimated on the sidelines is during SAN games when Rivers was in his head. The rest of the time he mostly sat on his Spot by himself on the bench.

I guess myopic is a good term to use for Josh bashers.


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