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View Full Version : Here's why not to miss Mike Nolan, and why McDaniels is smarter than you



Mr D
01-21-2010, 03:37 AM
I hope everyone to this point has finally accepted these points:

1. Mike Nolan was a conservative defensive coordinator before the Broncos.

2. Josh McDaniels said we'd be running an aggressive attacking style defense before the season, and during the season.

3. They both have the same agent, this is probably why it was easy to get Nolan here in the first place.

4. We were 26th in the league in run defense and could not stop it down the stretch.

Now - after some research, it's pretty evident Nolan leaving could have had to do with agreements on defense. Nolan wanting to be in Miami could be the bigger/main factor, but definitely understand that McDaniels and Nolan probably were not on the same page at all times.

Remember McDaniels said that blitzing against the run was NOT a good formula? Well, McDaniels is spot on with this point because outside of basic defensive logic - for example: none of the top defenses blitz to stop the run. This is WHY it is so important to get a good dline, and why Ayers was probably drafted.

This is probably why McDaniels likes to have big players on the front 7.

Guess what?

Mike Nolan blitzes to stop the run, and it's been a "staple" to his defense. (As notated here... http://www.milehighreport.com/2010/1/20/1261307/nolan-out-because-mcdaniels-wanted)

Now to further go in on this - I was talking to some more Niners fans, and numerous times throughout his tenure there it was a huge debate and problem about how he would **** up his blitzes causing Niners to give up huge plays (hence why Niners lead the league in most big plays given up on year, and always being last in defense). It probably helped us a bit this year having a veteran secondary too. It was known by the fans/media in the bay area that Nolan would blitz to stop the run, something that would hurt the defense down the line. One of his main faults to his failures - he would always be ******* up when blitzing. I would link you guys to proof but the 49ers board search does not work.

Personally - I think it is quite obvious that blitzing is not a good formula to stop the run unless you're playing Madden. I did NOT know that this was in Mike Nolan's scheme.

So for some of you, maybe this will lighten things up/help keep you at ease.

Blitzing is not a good idea to stop the run - it is what Nolan does.

The last main and key points I want to make:

1. Maybe it's a better idea that the head coach oversees the defense or has some say instead of giving all the powers to him? Coord. come and go like players, so what happens when one leaves that had full control? Not exactly a bright ending, and you're left with choices of promoting a position coach.

2. Steelers is an obvious exception.

3. Mike Nolan was only here for 1 season and our defense looked ****ty at seasons end.

4. Mike Nolan is gone and we shall move forward...:defense::salute:

DenBronx
01-21-2010, 03:47 AM
still wish we had nolan.

Lonestar
01-21-2010, 03:53 AM
Makes as much sense as some have put up.

silkamilkamonico
01-21-2010, 03:58 AM
Touche

Mr D
01-21-2010, 04:29 AM
still wish we had nolan.

If he and McDaniels could not mesh well together, to me it's not a big deal. If we can get Pees in here, I really wouldn't mind, and it'll probably be better than they're on the same page.

Nolan is probably on the better end of defensive coordinators... but that's not saying much as defensive gurus don't come around very often.

SR
01-21-2010, 06:28 AM
Moreno isn't #24 and Ayers isn't #91.

broncofaninfla
01-21-2010, 06:34 AM
Three of the remaining teams left this season blitz to stop the run. I'd say it's been pretty successful for them wouldn't you? All are one game away from the super bowl. You never want to live off of the blitz alone but Nolan was pretty damn good at scheming blitz packages in. We lack talent on the d line but our defense also suffered from fatigue down the stretch due to how our inept offense kept them on the field so much.

Northman
01-21-2010, 06:56 AM
The only problem with the logic that you have presented Mr. D is that Nolan was the HC at San Fran. Thus, as in most cases with cordinators is they often try to do too much once they become HC's. And most of the time when they go back to their original positions they do much better. So while Nolan may have had blitzed during the run in SF im not convinced that had he strickly been the DC there that he would of had any issues. Throughout his career as a DC he has done very well on the defensive side of the ball. As a HC, not so much.

Mr D
01-21-2010, 07:42 AM
Three of the remaining teams left this season blitz to stop the run. I'd say it's been pretty successful for them wouldn't you? All are one game away from the super bowl. You never want to live off of the blitz alone but Nolan was pretty damn good at scheming blitz packages in. We lack talent on the d line but our defense also suffered from fatigue down the stretch due to how our inept offense kept them on the field so much.

Jets don't blitz to stop the run (no need for explanation, just watch). Vikings don't blitz to stop the run (great dline). Colts don't blitz to stop the run (they have speedy linebacks and a good dline. Freeney and Mathis are able to rush the outside and their speedy linebackers are able to run and fill their gaps).

New Orleans - maybe?. I did not watch them enough to look through this. Hence why they were 25th in total defense, 20th points given up, 21st in run defense.

Great/good/solid defenses don't blitz to stop the run. This is why it is important to get a good/great dline and win in the trenches at the point of attack. Blitzing to stop the run leaves you vulnerable in more ways than you think. This is why McDaniels wants a big(ger) front 7.

claymore
01-21-2010, 07:44 AM
I stopped reading when I got to the MHR url. Besides Kubiak, Nolan is the best Coordinator we've had in a long time. He isnt easily replaceable.

Mr D
01-21-2010, 07:46 AM
The only problem with the logic that you have presented Mr. D is that Nolan was the HC at San Fran. Thus, as in most cases with cordinators is they often try to do too much once they become HC's. And most of the time when they go back to their original positions they do much better. So while Nolan may have had blitzed during the run in SF im not convinced that had he strickly been the DC there that he would of had any issues. Throughout his career as a DC he has done very well on the defensive side of the ball. As a HC, not so much.

Yes, he was the HC.

However, it's kind of like McDaniels here and how McDaniels is calling all the plays and in charge of the full offense. Just imagine that on defense, I guess you can say.

Nolan had full control of the defense, he hand picked his players, his plays and called them in. I think I wrote this in the original post.

He's been more spotty on defense than you'd think, his only really good years were in Balt where he was working with a pro bowl cast (hence why Deion came out of retirement for them).


New York Giants - 1993-1996 - 5th, 11th, 17th, 14th.

Washington Redskins - 1997-1999 - 16th, 24th, 30th.

In 1993, Nolan took over much of the personnel from Bill Parcells. Let's look at the dropoff after Nolan's first year with the Giants. His defenses never cracked the top 10. When Nolan was in Washington, his defenses got progressively worse.

In 3 years with the 49ers, Nolans defensive rankings are as follows...

2005 - 32nd, 2006 - 26th, 2007 - 25th.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/7129546/11075391

Mr D
01-21-2010, 07:50 AM
I stopped reading when I got to the MHR url. Besides Kubiak, Nolan is the best Coordinator we've had in a long time. He isnt easily replaceable.

the MHR url was actually them leading to another URL that led to the Boston Herald. If you don't believe me about that, just talk to any Niner fan... or scope their forums or even start a thread.

I thought Coyer did a good job with us when we got to the AFC Championship game.

But, I will agree that Nolan is one of the better coord we've had... however the let down on defense as the season progressed and the horrible run defense was as bad as Slowiks.

gobroncsnv
01-21-2010, 07:56 AM
Well, the real key would have been to have kept Nolan and have a better front 7... But that will make ANY DC look smarter. I like Nolan, wish he'd have stayed. This team needs some continuity on BOTH sides of the ball, but especially on D. We had a good philosophy around which to build a team, but we don't have the players yet. So now, with it sounding like our philosophy will once again change, do we have to scuttle the progress we've made to move in this new direction? We need to learn how to spell traction here...

claymore
01-21-2010, 08:00 AM
the MHR url was actually them leading to another URL that led to the Boston Herald. If you don't believe me about that, just talk to any Niner fan... or scope their forums or even start a thread.

I thought Coyer did a good job with us when we got to the AFC Championship game.

But, I will agree that Nolan is one of the better coord we've had... however the let down on defense as the season progressed and the horrible run defense was as bad as Slowiks.

I will disagree that it is was as bad as slowiks. We were better in every major or minor statistical category after changing to the 3-4 with a patchwork DL.

Nolan was the best coach on our team.

This move will make or Brake JMCD.

Nomad
01-21-2010, 08:01 AM
Makes as much sense as some have put up.

Yeah, it's more research than I'd put into this, but to sum it up Nolan was a likeable guy, a decent coach, but he's no world beater!! :ohwell: As Mr.D's #4 stated Nolan is gone and moving forward.....:defense::salute:

Dirk
01-21-2010, 08:06 AM
You make a lot of good points Mr. D.

I sure hope McD can get a DC in that will be good/great. If McD can get the offense going and the defense improves from last year we will be looking pretty good.

Nomad
01-21-2010, 08:13 AM
You make a lot of good points Mr. D.

I sure hope McD can get a DC in that will be good/great. If McD can get the offense going and the defense improves from last year we will be looking pretty good.

This is what most BRONCO fans hope for but then they're some who hope McDaniels fails just to prove they were right!!.....Pathetic!!:coffee:

claymore
01-21-2010, 08:24 AM
This is what most BRONCO fans hope for but then they're some who hope McDaniels fails just to prove they were right!!.....Pathetic!!:coffee:

I doubt thats true. I think there are some including myself that are positive JMCD is terrible for this rganization, and every move he makes digs the hole further.

I think we would all love to be proven wrong.

But the continual dismantling of everything that is good at dove valley is disheartening.

Nomad
01-21-2010, 08:31 AM
I doubt thats true. I think there are some including myself that are positive JMCD is terrible for this rganization, and every move he makes digs the hole further.

I think we would all love to be proven wrong.

But the continual dismantling of everything that is good at dove valley is disheartening.

There are some that would rather see McDaniels fail not just here but listening to the Denver station a few have come on saying so and at BM....trust me!!

I can't say the dismantling is a bad thing until after next season. And like I have said if we have another 2nd half meltdown then I will doubt Mcdaniels ability to evaluate players and turn this team around. And then it's up to Bowlen to have the headache of figuring out things!!

Ziggy
01-21-2010, 08:33 AM
I'll support the next D coordinator here in Denver. That's what I do as a Bronco fan. To start dogging Nolan because he left is ridiculous. He did more with this front 7 than many of us expected. Denver may have one of the worst D lines in the NFL, and finished 7th in overall D. Besides Doom, our front 7 is well below average as a unit. Heck, even with Doom, our front 7 is well below average.

Nolan came in here and helped turn around a defense that gave up over 400 points the last 2 years. They gave up 124 points less this year, with very little offensive support. I respect Mike Nolan for what he did here this year, and wish him all the best in the future,,,,,when he's not coaching against us.

claymore
01-21-2010, 08:35 AM
There are some that would rather see McDaniels fail not just here but listening to the Denver station a few have come on saying so and at BM....trust me!!

I can't say the dismantling is a bad thing until after next season. And like I have said if we have another 2nd half meltdown then I will doubt Mcdaniels ability to evaluate players and turn this team around. And then it's up to Bowlen to have the headache of figuring out things!!

People are the same with Obama. Some defend regardless of what he does, some want him to do bad no matter what, and hope he fails.

And some like me hope we are wrong, but realize the pattern is there already, and the chances of him becoming a good president is slim.

Nomad
01-21-2010, 08:40 AM
People are the same with Obama. Some defend regardless of what he does, some want him to do bad no matter what, and hope he fails.

And some like me hope we are wrong, but realize the pattern is there already, and the chances of him becoming a good president is slim.

Are the Patriots the special interest groups!!:lol:

claymore
01-21-2010, 08:43 AM
Are the Patriots the special interest groups!!:lol:

Hell yeah! They are the big pharmaceuticals.

broncofaninfla
01-21-2010, 08:45 AM
Jets don't blitz to stop the run (no need for explanation, just watch). Vikings don't blitz to stop the run (great dline). Colts don't blitz to stop the run (they have speedy linebacks and a good dline. Freeney and Mathis are able to rush the outside and their speedy linebackers are able to run and fill their gaps).

New Orleans - maybe?. I did not watch them enough to look through this. Hence why they were 25th in total defense, 20th points given up, 21st in run defense.

Great/good/solid defenses don't blitz to stop the run. This is why it is important to get a good/great dline and win in the trenches at the point of attack. Blitzing to stop the run leaves you vulnerable in more ways than you think. This is why McDaniels wants a big(ger) front 7.

The Jets DO blitz to disrupt the run and pass, as does Coyers Colts and Williams Saints. Only the Vikings rely on their base defense to get things done.

I agree teams can't rely soley on the blitz but Nolan did a masterful job with what he had.

Maybe if Pees blitzed more against the Ravens in the playoffs they could have stopped Rice and the gang? They didn't and the Ravens ran all over them.

If we do in fact blitz less this year there might be a slight improvement to our run defense but it will be at the expense of our passing defense.

Nomad
01-21-2010, 08:49 AM
Hell yeah! They are the big pharmaceuticals.

I guess you could form your own 'Tea Party' at Dove Valley!!:D

claymore
01-21-2010, 08:52 AM
I guess you could form your own 'Tea Party' at Dove Valley!!:D

Im the wrong guy to lead that, Id just get drunk and make an ass out of myself.

Ziggy
01-21-2010, 08:53 AM
At this point the Broncos had no choice but to blitz. The 3 D lineman we were starting weren't getting it done on thier own. I have no problem with run blitzing less, as long as we upgrade the talent on the Dline. I'm a staunch supporter of McDaniels, but if he doesn't upgrade the talent on both lines in the offseason, we're looking at another year of mediocrity and late season collapse.

Nomad
01-21-2010, 08:57 AM
At this point the Broncos had no choice but to blitz. The 3 D lineman we were starting weren't getting it done on thier own. I have no problem with run blitzing less, as long as we upgrade the talent on the Dline. I'm a staunch supporter of McDaniels, but if he doesn't upgrade the talent on both lines in the offseason, we're looking at another year of mediocrity and late season collapse.

I agree!! You think he can build those lines in one offseason. I'm not a draft/FA guru by far, but it seems he would focus on both sides of the ball with the oline and dline.

Ziggy
01-21-2010, 08:59 AM
I agree!! You think he can build those lines in one offseason. I'm not a draft/FA guru by far, but it seems he would focus on both sides of the ball with the oline and dline.

Not completely, but we do have 2 good tackles and a decent guard in place. On the defensive side, we have 3 guys starting that should be backups. We need to pick up at least 2 starters on the D line, and 1 on the offensive line. If not, we're in trouble.

Nomad
01-21-2010, 09:01 AM
Not completely, but we do have 2 good tackles and a decent guard in place. On the defensive side, we have 3 guys starting that should be backups. We need to pick up at least 2 starters on the D line, and 1 on the offensive line. If not, we're in trouble.

Like I asked top yesterday, what's your opinion on this Chris Baker kid, he's supposed to have a lot of potential!!!

SOCALORADO.
01-21-2010, 09:06 AM
i'll support the next d coordinator here in denver. That's what i do as a bronco fan. To start dogging nolan because he left is ridiculous. He did more with this front 7 than many of us expected. Denver may have one of the worst d lines in the nfl, and finished 7th in overall d. Besides doom, our front 7 is well below average as a unit. Heck, even with doom, our front 7 is well below average.

Nolan came in here and helped turn around a defense that gave up over 400 points the last 2 years. They gave up 124 points less this year, with very little offensive support. I respect mike nolan for what he did here this year, and wish him all the best in the future,,,,,when he's not coaching against us.

cosign.

EastCoastBronco
01-21-2010, 09:08 AM
It still boils down to personnel on the field. You can have the greatest coach and scheme in the world but if you don't have the players to make the scheme work consistently (especially when after 6-7 games opposing O coordinators figure out how to possibly exploit it), it will be the same old story. It's been this way in Denver for so long I've almost forgotten what a solid, consistent defence looks like. This defence has been patched and patched and patched for so long that there is nothing real underneath. It needs to be rebuilt for the long haul and I have no problem waiting if they are committed to doing it correctly.
We can continue with our current revolving door policy with D coordinators or we can keep one and allow him to build this thing from the ground up. As I've said all along, the shit doesn't happen overnight. It takes time and patience.

claymore
01-21-2010, 09:18 AM
It still boils down to personnel on the field. You can have the greatest coach and scheme in the world but if you don't have the players to make the scheme work consistently (especially when after 6-7 games opposing O coordinators figure out how to possibly exploit it), it will be the same old story. It's been this way in Denver for so long I've almost forgotten what a solid, consistent defence looks like. This defence has been patched and patched and patched for so long that there is nothing real underneath. It needs to be rebuilt for the long haul and I have no problem waiting if they are committed to doing it correctly.
We can continue with our current revolving door policy with D coordinators or we can keep one and allow him to build this thing from the ground up. As I've said all along, the shit doesn't happen overnight. It takes time and patience.

The terrible thing about "letting"Nolan go is we once agian start from scratch. 5 coordinators in 5 years. I feel so sorry for Champ Bailey.

Ziggy
01-21-2010, 09:20 AM
Like I asked top yesterday, what's your opinion on this Chris Baker kid, he's supposed to have a lot of potential!!!

Everyone fell in love with him last offseason because of his size/potential. While Fields did a decent job, he was by no means a star. Still, Baker was only activated for 1 game, and recorded no stats. Who knows, maybe he found his way into Nolan's doghouse, maybe he just doesn't have what it takes to be an NFL starter. Either way, while some are counting on him to be a vital part of this D next season, I'm not. If he does, it'll be a nice surprise, but in the mean time, the Broncos had better get some depth in here.

SoCalImport
01-21-2010, 09:23 AM
Everyone fell in love with him last offseason because of his size/potential. While Fields did a decent job, he was by no means a star. Still, Baker was only activated for 1 game, and recorded no stats. Who knows, maybe he found his way into Nolan's doghouse, maybe he just doesn't have what it takes to be an NFL starter. Either way, while some are counting on him to be a vital part of this D next season, I'm not. If he does, it'll be a nice surprise, but in the mean time, the Broncos had better get some depth in here.

Baker doesn't look like a fireplug NT to me. He's probably more suited to a 4/3 DT or DE role if you ask me.

Ziggy
01-21-2010, 09:30 AM
The terrible thing about "letting"Nolan go is we once agian start from scratch. 5 coordinators in 5 years. I feel so sorry for Champ Bailey.

Champ will have 12 million reasons to be consoled here in Denver this season. Whether the Broncos hire Martindale or Pees, there will be a lot less transition than there was last season. Both will keep the 3-4 defense.

claymore
01-21-2010, 09:34 AM
Champ will have 12 million reasons to be consoled here in Denver this season. Whether the Broncos hire Martindale or Pees, there will be a lot less transition than there was last season. Both will keep the 3-4 defense.

If we pay Champ Bailey 12 million dollars this year, then I lose any shred of hope or respect for this front office that I had.

He is not even close to being worth 12 million dollars.

If he doesnt want to be a Bronco for less money screw him.

Ziggy
01-21-2010, 09:40 AM
If we pay Champ Bailey 12 million dollars this year, then I lose any shred of hope or respect for this front office that I had.

He is not even close to being worth 12 million dollars.

If he doesnt want to be a Bronco for less money screw him.

You'd better put him on your enemy list now then, becuase I don't think he's going anywhere, and I don't think he's going to want to restructure.

EastCoastBronco
01-21-2010, 09:44 AM
If we pay Champ Bailey 12 million dollars this year, then I lose any shred of hope or respect for this front office that I had.

He is not even close to being worth 12 million dollars.

If he doesnt want to be a Bronco for less money screw him.

Very true. Champ's days of being worth that much are long gone. The Pats would have unloaded him 5 years ago.

claymore
01-21-2010, 09:48 AM
Very true. Champ's days of being worth that much are long gone. The Pats would have unloaded him 5 years ago.

JMCD is an erratic guy, its the only reason im not 100% positive Champ will take a pay cut.

CoachChaz
01-21-2010, 09:55 AM
I doubt thats true. I think there are some including myself that are positive JMCD is terrible for this rganization, and every move he makes digs the hole further.

I think we would all love to be proven wrong.

But the continual dismantling of everything that is good at dove valley is disheartening.

I can see how people can feel that way, but we cant eliminate the fact that the dismantling may very well be necessary. One step back...two steps forward

claymore
01-21-2010, 09:59 AM
I can see how people can feel that way, but we cant eliminate the fact that the dismantling may very well be necessary. One step back...two steps forward

We are at the point where we should be taking a step forward. I know more turmoil will only hurt.

Winning is all that will stop the bleeding.

Zweems56
01-21-2010, 10:01 AM
http://brownsharpie.courtneygibbons.org/wp-content/comics/2008-02-01-emo-cosine.jpg
cosign.

??

SOCALORADO.
01-21-2010, 10:24 AM
If we pay Champ Bailey 12 million dollars this year, then I lose any shred of hope or respect for this front office that I had.

He is not even close to being worth 12 million dollars.

If he doesnt want to be a Bronco for less money screw him.

Agreed.

SOCALORADO.
01-21-2010, 10:24 AM
http://brownsharpie.courtneygibbons.org/wp-content/comics/2008-02-01-emo-cosine.jpg

??

cosign.

CoachChaz
01-21-2010, 10:28 AM
We are at the point where we should be taking a step forward. I know more turmoil will only hurt.

Winning is all that will stop the bleeding.

Says who? I think that's part of the problem. Alot of fans are expecting everything to be peachy in less than a year and that's really not very feasible...especially considering what we've endured. We can put the blame on whatever fits our individual arguments and agendas, but the bootom line is that things have changed on an almost daily basis in the past year. Players leaving, coaches leaving. The EASY response is to blame one guy. I mean afterall...change is apparently a BAD thing when it comes to Denver and many of the fans. People have no problems with being mired in mediocrity but shit their pants and take Lipitor any time things change in order to make improvements.

McD was given 4 years to turn things around. There WILL be rough spots along the way, but if...when it's all said and done...this is a better team and organization, then it will all have been worth it. Sit down, relax and enjoy what could be a very good ride. Afterall...even if the team goes 0-16 for the next 20 years...does anyone plan on being a fan of anyone other than the Broncos? Didnt think so.

claymore
01-21-2010, 10:38 AM
Says who? I think that's part of the problem. Alot of fans are expecting everything to be peachy in less than a year and that's really not very feasible...especially considering what we've endured. We can put the blame on whatever fits our individual arguments and agendas, but the bootom line is that things have changed on an almost daily basis in the past year. Players leaving, coaches leaving. The EASY response is to blame one guy. I mean afterall...change is apparently a BAD thing when it comes to Denver and many of the fans. People have no problems with being mired in mediocrity but shit their pants and take Lipitor any time things change in order to make improvements.

McD was given 4 years to turn things around. There WILL be rough spots along the way, but if...when it's all said and done...this is a better team and organization, then it will all have been worth it. Sit down, relax and enjoy what could be a very good ride. Afterall...even if the team goes 0-16 for the next 20 years...does anyone plan on being a fan of anyone other than the Broncos? Didnt think so.I doubt he gets 4 years at this pace. Its a billion dollar business, and we didnt crack the top 20 in jersey sales last year, fans are booing home games, and we just had the worst meltdown in Broncos history.

This year is sink or swim with McDaniels. He HAS to go 9-7 or better.

SOCALORADO.
01-21-2010, 10:43 AM
i doubt he gets 4 years at this pace. Its a billion dollar business, and we didnt crack the top 20 in jersey sales last year, fans are booing home games, and we just had the worst meltdown in broncos history.

This year is sink or swim with mcdaniels. He has to go 9-7 or better.

***cosign ;) cosign***

Nomad
01-21-2010, 10:45 AM
I doubt he gets 4 years at this pace. Its a billion dollar business, and we didnt crack the top 20 in jersey sales last year, fans are booing home games, and we just had the worst meltdown in Broncos history.

This year is sink or swim with McDaniels. He HAS to go 9-7 or better.

I agree with Chaz on being patient and letting the man build his team with the necessary changes. And I agree with you, if and only if the BRONCOS dont improve on their play down the stretch next year and have a worse record than this year, he'll be on the hot seat and maybe/probably given another year.

Ziggy
01-21-2010, 11:07 AM
I doubt he gets 4 years at this pace. Its a billion dollar business, and we didnt crack the top 20 in jersey sales last year, fans are booing home games, and we just had the worst meltdown in Broncos history.

This year is sink or swim with McDaniels. He HAS to go 9-7 or better.

I disagree with you Clay. You're one of the one's complaining about the constant change and lack of continuity, yet you're saying that a new coach should only have 2 years and be swapped out if he isn't winning right away. Luckily, Bowlen is smarter than you, and knows that some continuity is needed at the HC position in order for true change to take effect. I think McD gets at least 3 years regardless of the record. Hopefully, next year will be a successful one and we won't ever have to find out. The only time Bowlen fired a coach after 2 seasons was when he had a GM in place, Shanahan waiting in the wings, and a hall of fame QB who's career was winding down. None of that is happening now.

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
01-21-2010, 11:20 AM
Blitzing to stop the run is a no no, because once the back breaks through that initial pressure and finds a line there's not that pursuit on the second level.

Medford Bronco
01-21-2010, 11:24 AM
You make a lot of good points Mr. D.

I sure hope McD can get a DC in that will be good/great. If McD can get the offense going and the defense improves from last year we will be looking pretty good.

It helps to have better defenisive players and an offense that can be more helpful as well

Ravage!!!
01-21-2010, 11:28 AM
If we pay Champ Bailey 12 million dollars this year, then I lose any shred of hope or respect for this front office that I had.

He is not even close to being worth 12 million dollars.

If he doesnt want to be a Bronco for less money screw him.

CLay... players aren't santa clause.

Why would champ "want to play" for denver for less money? That roster bonus is looked upon as PART of their salary... simply giving away money isn't in ANYONE's business to do.

Champ isn't going to play for less money simply to play in Denver... nor should he. We'll either have to give him the roster bonus, or, restructure his contract and give him the 12.5 in a signing bonus..... some king of guaranteed money..... or he's gone. I can't blame him for that.

Ravage!!!
01-21-2010, 11:33 AM
I disagree with you Clay. You're one of the one's complaining about the constant change and lack of continuity, yet you're saying that a new coach should only have 2 years and be swapped out if he isn't winning right away. Luckily, Bowlen is smarter than you, and knows that some continuity is needed at the HC position in order for true change to take effect. I think McD gets at least 3 years regardless of the record. Hopefully, next year will be a successful one and we won't ever have to find out. The only time Bowlen fired a coach after 2 seasons was when he had a GM in place, Shanahan waiting in the wings, and a hall of fame QB who's career was winding down. None of that is happening now.

BUT... the difference is the way the organization has been run in the mean time. Losing a ton of talent with mad drama in the media, brings more eyes on him and the Broncos. That doesn't buy you more time.

Obviously, it will come down to how this season progresses. BUT... we all wanted to see a PROGRESSION as the season went along last year. INstead, we regressed. Things didn't get better as the season started, they got worse.

So its certainly not a given that McD gets 3-4 years after all the..'change'...that the new coach brought to the personnel...especially considering that one side of the ball was looking to be one of th emost up-n-coming offenses in the NFL. Now, not-so-much. That usually doesn't buy you more time.

So this year is going to be huge for McD's future...imo.

dogfish
01-21-2010, 11:38 AM
Very true. Champ's days of being worth that much are long gone. The Pats would have unloaded him 5 years ago.

well then they would have looked awfully stupid when he finished a close second in the defensive MVP voting in 2006. . . .

rationalfan
01-21-2010, 11:43 AM
this is entertaining. a couple thougths inspired by this thread:

1. Great thread starter. Love the fact that someone actually uses facts and other people's (credible) anecdotes to support a theory.

2. It's funny that people are defending Nolan still after learning he blitzed against the run too much. Because, that is the exact reason why previous D coordinators in Denver were despised (slowick, Coyer, etc.).

3. I don't agree with the idea that Nolan and Kubiak were Denver's best coordinators. Those statements just feel like people appreciating familiar name appeal. (my thoughts on Denver's best coordinators: Wade Phillips, Larry Coyer).

4. Nolan will be remembered by some fans as a saviour, only because it's contrary to the idea of support for McD.

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
01-21-2010, 11:44 AM
well then they would have looked awfully stupid when he finished a close second in the defensive MVP voting in 2006. . . .

So because he almost was awarded a meaningless ribbon he's irreplaceable?

I want champ in Denver but that's just ridiculous right there.

underrated29
01-21-2010, 11:51 AM
In 3 years with the 49ers, Nolans defensive rankings are as follows...

2005 - 32nd, 2006 - 26th, 2007 - 25th.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/7129546/11075391



yes and in 3 years mike shannahan was 9-7, 7-9, 8-8. Does that mean he is a bad coach. I think not!




And whoever said something nolan did was as bad as slowicks is way way way way off. I have never seen anything as autrocius as bob slowicks defense. That man and his D scheme is a disgrace to football. Nolan, nor anyone else, even al davis himself should not be compared to how pathetic bob slowicks defense was. Ever.

EastCoastBronco
01-21-2010, 12:00 PM
well then they would have looked awfully stupid when he finished a close second in the defensive MVP voting in 2006. . . .

We all know how MVP voting works anyway. It's a joke. Look at Woodson beating out Revis this year, for example.

Back to the point...I've got nothing against Champ. He's been a great player for the Broncos. Never worth what we paid for him IMHO but still a memorable Bronco.

Bottom line. The guy isn't worth 12 million.

LawDog
01-21-2010, 01:41 PM
The title of this thread posits that letting Nolan go was a good thing and that Coach is smarter than we think he is. The OP then goes on to say that Nolan ain't all that, never has been, etc.

Why then did Parcells snap him up in a NY minute? Is Coach smarter than Parcells too?

The OP may have a point, but I seriously doubt it is the point he thinks it is...

Northman
01-21-2010, 01:42 PM
Yes, he was the HC.

However, it's kind of like McDaniels here and how McDaniels is calling all the plays and in charge of the full offense. Just imagine that on defense, I guess you can say.

Nolan had full control of the defense, he hand picked his players, his plays and called them in. I think I wrote this in the original post.

He's been more spotty on defense than you'd think, his only really good years were in Balt where he was working with a pro bowl cast (hence why Deion came out of retirement for them).


New York Giants - 1993-1996 - 5th, 11th, 17th, 14th.

Washington Redskins - 1997-1999 - 16th, 24th, 30th.

In 1993, Nolan took over much of the personnel from Bill Parcells. Let's look at the dropoff after Nolan's first year with the Giants. His defenses never cracked the top 10. When Nolan was in Washington, his defenses got progressively worse.

In 3 years with the 49ers, Nolans defensive rankings are as follows...

2005 - 32nd, 2006 - 26th, 2007 - 25th.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/7129546/11075391

Well, no offense Mr. D but i havent seen to many subpar defenses turn out spectacular or end up being #1. You need to have great players to have a great defense. The 49rs are still trying to build a defense and they have another defensive minded coach as the HC. Thing is, when Nolan is a DC he does a great job. When he's a HC he hasnt done as well nor has his DC under him. I mean, am i supposed to really believe that because he was a HC he was in total control of the defense during that time? If so, should we fire McDaniels for not being able to put up points when he was a OC in NE? Its not that easy or clear cut. The HC has so many more responsibilities than just a OC or DC, etc. You can blame Nolan for not being a very good HC, but not a DC. If your going to do that than we might as well get rid of McDaniels for being a terrible HC who controls the offense and has done nothing with it. But, seeing how i know he has more responsibilities than just the offense i know he will need some extra time. But your SF example doesnt hold any water here. All it shows is he isnt a very good HC which has nothing to do with his DC duties.

Mr D
01-21-2010, 02:40 PM
I will disagree that it is was as bad as slowiks. We were better in every major or minor statistical category after changing to the 3-4 with a patchwork DL.

Nolan was the best coach on our team.

This move will make or Brake JMCD.

At the end of the season? Against the Raiders, Eagles, and Chiefs? I'm not going to sit here and say it's just as bad as slowiks in every detail/stat, but take a look at the last 3 games in rushing or passing

Raiders - 241 rushing yards (this is ridiculous). Couldn't stop them on the final drive.

Eagles - 322 passing yards 3 tds 1 int 104 qb rating. Couldn't stop them on the final drive.

Chiefs - 317 rushing yards (are you serious?) This was a historic day for the Chiefs as they broke some of their rushing records. Couldn't stop them period.


We were 26th in the league is run stop , just one spot higher than last year. Don't even call that improvement, because when you're dwindling with the bottom half of the league you don't improve by moving up a couple spots... other teams just suck more than you.

Mr D
01-21-2010, 02:47 PM
The Jets DO blitz to disrupt the run and pass, as does Coyers Colts and Williams Saints. Only the Vikings rely on their base defense to get things done.

I agree teams can't rely soley on the blitz but Nolan did a masterful job with what he had.

Maybe if Pees blitzed more against the Ravens in the playoffs they could have stopped Rice and the gang? They didn't and the Ravens ran all over them.

If we do in fact blitz less this year there might be a slight improvement to our run defense but it will be at the expense of our passing defense.

Jets do not blitz to stop the run, they blitz to pressure the quarterback, hence their GAP overload blitzes. Their exotic/main blitzes overload a certain gap while moving around defenders, and this is usually on passing down. Jets stop the run with their dline and linebackers. Rex Ryan didn't do this in
Ravens either. Bltizing to stop the run is not a good idea in general... you'll see that the Jets don't blitz to stop the run by just looking at their dlineman getting a push.

Colts don't blitz to stop the run either - I explained a part of what they do already. They run a cover 2 scheme. If you think Blitzing means watching linebackers run towards the LOS as it's getting handed off... then you're confused.

The only team that I'm not sure of is Saints and I wouldn't be surprised if they did...

topscribe
01-21-2010, 02:47 PM
I stopped reading when I got to the MHR url. Besides Kubiak, Nolan is the best Coordinator we've had in a long time. He isnt easily replaceable.

Too bad. That is where I find the best analyses and reporting.

-----

Lonestar
01-21-2010, 02:52 PM
I just know in my own heart unless you have a stellar DL blitzing all the time is going to cause you issues.

Run blitzing is used to cover up major weaknesses.. Which we have had for e-ions.

time to just fox the problem upgrade the DL.

I wonder if Nolan got pissed if Josh told him that fields was not getting it done and we needed to evaluate NT in the upcoming FA/Draft period.

topscribe
01-21-2010, 02:53 PM
Very true. Champ's days of being worth that much are long gone. The Pats would have unloaded him 5 years ago.

Or, in other words, 4 Pro Bowls and 3 All-Pros ago . . .

Right. :rolleyes:

-----

Lonestar
01-21-2010, 02:57 PM
Or, in other words, 4 Pro Bowls and 3 All-Pros ago . . .

Right. :rolleyes:

-----

You mean just as a Bronco right? Did you add in the skins stuff.

claymore
01-21-2010, 02:58 PM
At the end of the season? Against the Raiders, Eagles, and Chiefs? I'm not going to sit here and say it's just as bad as slowiks in every detail/stat, but take a look at the last 3 games in rushing or passing

Raiders - 241 rushing yards (this is ridiculous). Couldn't stop them on the final drive.

Eagles - 322 passing yards 3 tds 1 int 104 qb rating. Couldn't stop them on the final drive.

Chiefs - 317 rushing yards (are you serious?) This was a historic day for the Chiefs as they broke some of their rushing records. Couldn't stop them period.


We were 26th in the league is run stop , just one spot higher than last year. Don't even call that improvement, because when you're dwindling with the bottom half of the league you don't improve by moving up a couple spots... other teams just suck more than you.
You can selectively pull games out of any year to make any defense look bad. I go by the end of year statistics.

The first 6 wins count on the record, so does the defense (and their stats)that got them there.

claymore
01-21-2010, 02:59 PM
Too bad. That is where I find the best analyses and reporting.

-----

The owner is a doosh and its all opinion pieces. Thats like calling youtube game film.

topscribe
01-21-2010, 03:00 PM
The title of this thread posits that letting Nolan go was a good thing and that Coach is smarter than we think he is. The OP then goes on to say that Nolan ain't all that, never has been, etc.

Why then did Parcells snap him up in a NY minute? Is Coach smarter than Parcells too?

The OP may have a point, but I seriously doubt it is the point he thinks it is...

I don't know whether Coach is smarter than what "we" think he is because I'm
not sure what "we" all think. I do know he is smarter that what some here think
he is, and he sure as hell is smarter than any of us, in football terms.

Regarding the differences between the two clubs and their attitudes toward
Nolan, I believe Pacells wants an autonomous DC, while McDaniels wants to
be involved in every phase of the operation. It isn't a case of "smarts." It is a
case of philosophical chemistry, IMO.

-----

Mr D
01-21-2010, 03:02 PM
Well, no offense Mr. D but i havent seen to many subpar defenses turn out spectacular or end up being #1. You need to have great players to have a great defense. The 49rs are still trying to build a defense and they have another defensive minded coach as the HC. Thing is, when Nolan is a DC he does a great job. When he's a HC he hasnt done as well nor has his DC under him. I mean, am i supposed to really believe that because he was a HC he was in total control of the defense during that time? If so, should we fire McDaniels for not being able to put up points when he was a OC in NE? Its not that easy or clear cut. The HC has so many more responsibilities than just a OC or DC, etc. You can blame Nolan for not being a very good HC, but not a DC. If your going to do that than we might as well get rid of McDaniels for being a terrible HC who controls the offense and has done nothing with it. But, seeing how i know he has more responsibilities than just the offense i know he will need some extra time. But your SF example doesnt hold any water here. All it shows is he isnt a very good HC which has nothing to do with his DC duties.

It holds as much water as the ocean. Don't take it from me though, take it from the Niners fans, take it from their media, or whatever. Do the research and you'll find it.

You don't have to believe me though.

However, I'm just asking, did you know that McDaniels was in full control of the offense here, called every single offensive play, coordinated the whole offensive game plan/scheme, EVERYTHING...so why are you having such a hard time believing Nolan wasn't responsible over there? THe offensive failure/success here is ALL on McDaniels hands. Do you even know who our Ocord is? Outside of reading about him getting hired, his name was not mentioned once this season on telecast.

They brought Nolan in to bring in his defensive scheme, so it's OBVIOUS that he would be in full responsibility of that teams defense.

If McDaniels succeeds here, you can give him both the credit of being a good HC (and everything that comes along with it) and OC, because he has the responsibility of both jobs.

The Niners defense laid all on Nolan's hands. I think you're trying to use logic of business duties of a position rather than actually understanding what happened and how every NFL team operates differently.

How about Rex Ryan? Are you going to tell me that he isn't responsible for that defense even though he hand picked and calls the defensive plays? Those are his blitzes and no one else in the league uses them/knows how to use them. You logic to Nolan not being responsible for DC is just as illogical as saying McDaniels is not responsible for the offense here and Rex Ryan not responsible for the defense in NY.

turftoad
01-21-2010, 03:03 PM
I don't know whether Coach is smarter than what "we" think he is because I'm
not sure what "we" all think. I do know he is smarter that what some here think
he is, and he sure as hell is smarter than any of us, in football terms.

Regarding the differences between the two clubs and their attitudes toward
Nolan, I believe Pacells wants an autonomous DC, while McDaniels wants to
be involved in every phase of the operation. It isn't a case of "smarts." It is a
case of philosophical chemistry, IMO.

-----

It's a case of micro managing IMO.

topscribe
01-21-2010, 03:03 PM
The owner is a doosh and its all opinion pieces. Thats like calling youtube game film.

That's your opinion. I have high respect for my friend John Bena.

And I have high respect for the opinions the various authors present. I have
presented a couple myself. I find them far more scintillating than the many
"Duh, Orton sucks" pieces of genius on some of these football message boards.

-----

Mr D
01-21-2010, 03:04 PM
You can selectively pull games out of any year to make any defense look bad. I go by the end of year statistics.

The first 6 wins count on the record, so does the defense (and their stats)that got them there.


You're right, the defense/coaches do get credit for that as McDaniels does gets the wins for it.

You can also say that this team had no game film on defense to start the year... but if you want to take year end stats just take a look at how bad we were in rush defense, we were 26th in the league.

You can't just say what you said and leave it at that, because we DID finish 2-8 and that matters just as much as the bigger picture.

topscribe
01-21-2010, 03:08 PM
It's a case of micro managing IMO.

I don't know whether McDaniels presently has a special problem with delegating.
I do know that I secretly wish (well, it won't be secretly anymore, will it?) that
Nolan had been granted the autonomy he sought, if that was the case. As I
mentioned elsewhere (and as you know), the guy is an experience DC and HC,
while McDaniels is experienced at neither. I personally feel he should have
handed the reins to Nolan, come hell or high water, and himself concentrated on
offense.

But, as I implied a post or two ago, what the hell do I know? :coffee:

-----

topscribe
01-21-2010, 03:10 PM
You mean just as a Bronco right? Did you add in the skins stuff.

Nah, the poster said NE would have dumped Champ "five years ago."

Sorry, but Belichick doesn't impress me as that stupid . . .

-----

turftoad
01-21-2010, 03:21 PM
I don't know whether McDaniels presently has a special problem with delegating.
I do know that I secretly wish (well, it won't be secretly anymore, will it?) that
Nolan had been granted the autonomy he sought, if that was the case. As I
mentioned elsewhere (and as you know), the guy is an experience DC and HC,
while McDaniels is experienced at neither. I personally feel he should have
handed the reins to Nolan, come hell or high water, and himself concentrated on
offense.

But, as I implied a post or two ago, what the hell do I know? :coffee:

-----

I agree Top.
You hire an experienced DC to run the "D" and let him take it over. McD has never run a "D" in the NFL.
Nolan did a very admirable job for the talent he had to work with.
Soooo..... lets piss off the experienced DC also cuz McD is an egomaniac.

I have a hard time believing that people can't see how he is tearing this organization apart and making it a national laughing stock.

He hired the guy cuz he was experienced so let him do his freeking job.

Micro managing ego maniac.

EastCoastBronco
01-21-2010, 03:36 PM
Nah, the poster said NE would have dumped Champ "five years ago."

Sorry, but Belichick doesn't impress me as that stupid . . .

-----

Yeah...I guess Asante Samuel wasn't that great eh? Don't get mean Topsribe, it doesn't suit you.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-21-2010, 03:45 PM
Nah, the poster said NE would have dumped Champ "five years ago."

Sorry, but Belichick doesn't impress me as that stupid . . .

-----

He is that arrogant, though. All coaches believe that they are geniuses at something. With Shanny it was RBs. He thought he could just draft (or acquire as an UDFA) any old RB from pretty much anywhere and make him a 1000 yd back because his system supported it. To an extent, he was right. The ZBS is good for RBs.

McDaniels believes he can win with any old QB because his system supports it. There's no doubt that Orton had the best year of his career (stats wise) and was very protected in McDaniels' scheme. To an extent, McD is right. Just about any QB can be effective in this scheme as long as he doesn't have to put the offense on his back and win the game with big plays.

Bellichick believes himself a defensive genius. He believes that no matter how many quality defensive players he loses or trades away, that his defense will just run as usual. He traded away Seymour rather than pay him. He decided not to pay Assante Samuel. He decided to trade away Mike Vrabel and replace him with Tully Banta-Cain. I have no doubt that had Champ ever played for him, he would've been traded away or not re-signed when it came time for his big payday too. Bellichick is just that confident (arrogant) in his scheme and abilities.

topscribe
01-21-2010, 03:46 PM
Yeah...I guess Asante Samuel wasn't that great eh? Don't get mean Topsribe, it doesn't suit you.

Asante Samuel? How did we arrive at that? :confused:

I could go into a deep analysis on the events in Samuel's career and why what
happened, happened, but it would probably prove boring at this stage. But let's
just say that we may need a better example than a player with 3 Pro Bowls and
1 All-Pro to compare with a player who has a total of 9 Pro Bowls and 6 All-Pros.

Champ is not "dump" material . . .

-----

Lonestar
01-21-2010, 03:50 PM
I agree Top.
You hire an experienced DC to run the "D" and let him take it over. McD has never run a "D" in the NFL.
Nolan did a very admirable job for the talent he had to work with.
Soooo..... lets piss off the experienced DC also cuz McD is an egomaniac.

I have a hard time believing that people can't see how he is tearing this organization apart and making it a national laughing stock.

He hired the guy cuz he was experienced so let him do his freeking job.

Micro managing ego maniac.

If josh saw that run blitzing was not effective then as the guy in charge he has that right to say we are going to scale it back.

no where in any of the articles did it say we will never run blitzes or for that matter any other blitzes either.

it is his job to over see the entire situation. IF nolan got butt hurt about scaling back a failed procedure then perhaps he was not the guy Y'all think he was. It sounds as IF HIS EGO was the one to large.

We all have bosses that have the right to say no from time to time regardless of your stature

Lonestar
01-21-2010, 03:52 PM
He is that arrogant, though. All coaches believe that they are geniuses at something. With Shanny it was RBs. He thought he could just draft (or acquire as an UDFA) any old RB from pretty much anywhere and make him a 1000 yd back because his system supported it. To an extent, he was right. The ZBS is good for RBs.

McDaniels believes he can win with any old QB because his system supports it. There's no doubt that Orton had the best year of his career (stats wise) and was very protected in McDaniels' scheme. To an extent, McD is right. Just about any QB can be effective in this scheme as long as he doesn't have to put the offense on his back and win the game with big plays.

Bellichick believes himself a defensive genius. He believes that no matter how many quality defensive players he loses or trades away, that his defense will just run as usual. He traded away Seymour rather than pay him. He decided not to pay Assante Samuel. He decided to trade away Mike Vrabel and replace him with Tully Banta-Cain. I have no doubt that had Champ ever played for him, he would've been traded away or not re-signed when it came time for his big payday too. Bellichick is just that confident (arrogant) in his scheme and abilities.


So far he has been pretty damned good in NE though.

topscribe
01-21-2010, 04:02 PM
He is that arrogant, though. All coaches believe that they are geniuses at something. With Shanny it was RBs. He thought he could just draft (or acquire as an UDFA) any old RB from pretty much anywhere and make him a 1000 yd back because his system supported it. To an extent, he was right. The ZBS is good for RBs.

McDaniels believes he can win with any old QB because his system supports it. There's no doubt that Orton had the best year of his career (stats wise) and was very protected in McDaniels' scheme. To an extent, McD is right. Just about any QB can be effective in this scheme as long as he doesn't have to put the offense on his back and win the game with big plays.

Bellichick believes himself a defensive genius. He believes that no matter how many quality defensive players he loses or trades away, that his defense will just run as usual. He traded away Seymour rather than pay him. He decided not to pay Assante Samuel. He decided to trade away Mike Vrabel and replace him with Tully Banta-Cain. I have no doubt that had Champ ever played for him, he would've been traded away or not re-signed when it came time for his big payday too. Bellichick is just that confident (arrogant) in his scheme and abilities.

It's more than "deciding not to" pay. It's how much total money they believe
they can pay out. They franchised Samuel in 2007, but couldn't in 2008
because of an agreement that they would not if Samuel played in 60% of the
defensive snaps in 2007, or if the team won 12 games, according to the
Boston Globe.

But you may be right on those terms: Belichick's inflated confidence in his
defensive acumen. After all, Champ didn't hang around and let Washington
"underpay" him, so why would he have done so with NE? Under those terms,
they might have turned Champ into draft picks. But they certainly would not
have "dumped" him . . .

-----

HORSEPOWER 56
01-21-2010, 04:03 PM
So far he has been pretty damned good in NE though.

I was just making a case for him keeping Champ Bailey around. I don't think he would, either. No more than Shanny keeping Portis.

claymore
01-21-2010, 04:45 PM
That's your opinion. I have high respect for my friend John Bena.

And I have high respect for the opinions the various authors present. I have
presented a couple myself. I find them far more scintillating than the many
"Duh, Orton sucks" pieces of genius on some of these football message boards.

-----
Thats fine. We all have our sites.

You're right, the defense/coaches do get credit for that as McDaniels does gets the wins for it.

You can also say that this team had no game film on defense to start the year... but if you want to take year end stats just take a look at how bad we were in rush defense, we were 26th in the league.

You can't just say what you said and leave it at that, because we DID finish 2-8 and that matters just as much as the bigger picture.
26th in the league, which is better than what we were last year.

Everyone wants to give JMCD more time, but Nolan was the only one making strides. Making strides with the worst part of our team. Our offensive Coordinator took the offense backwards, and he is still employed.

Fire that guy and nobody cares.

Lonestar
01-21-2010, 05:37 PM
Thats fine. We all have our sites.

26th in the league, which is better than what we were last year.

Everyone wants to give JMCD more time, but Nolan was the only one making strides. Making strides with the worst part of our team. Our offensive Coordinator took the offense backwards, and he is still employed.

Fire that guy and nobody cares.

Here we go again. Making strides?

If your just using stats, perhaps you are correct.

But your failing to account for was the massive changes for BOTH sides of the ball.

You fail to acknowledge that Defenses always come around faster in the fall, not having marshall in camp mentally and then physically the 1st 10 days or so did NOTHING to help get timing down between Kyle and him. thus setting back everyone else also.

Having a compound dislocation of his forefinger on his throwing hand did nothing to help the timing issue either. Then the high ankle sprain.

Only a few fools thought that we would be firing on all cylinders last year. WHile almost everyone acknowledges that it take a QB as long as 3 years to completely learn a scheme, Y'all are on his back for not putting up cutler numbers in his first year.

Lots of reasons for failure on O OLINE that sucked, marshall, perhaps play calling since we really do not know what could be called, or what was being allowed for us to play. not sure if that is availed bitch or not.

Complex schemes do not run right if someone does not run the correct route thus not clearing out another area for the following WR.

SInce NONE of us were in the film room and really do not know what the game plan was, the played called, or if kyle threw to the wrong spot or the WR ran the route wrong. It is hard to pinpoint the blame to Josh, Kyle, Marshall, Eddie, Moreno or OLINE.

It is easy to set back on monday and pick something apart without any real knowledge of what was supposed to happen.

/RANT

Northman
01-21-2010, 05:47 PM
It holds as much water as the ocean. Don't take it from me though, take it from the Niners fans, take it from their media, or whatever. Do the research and you'll find it.

You don't have to believe me though.

However, I'm just asking, did you know that McDaniels was in full control of the offense here, called every single offensive play, coordinated the whole offensive game plan/scheme, EVERYTHING...so why are you having such a hard time believing Nolan wasn't responsible over there? THe offensive failure/success here is ALL on McDaniels hands. Do you even know who our Ocord is? Outside of reading about him getting hired, his name was not mentioned once this season on telecast.

They brought Nolan in to bring in his defensive scheme, so it's OBVIOUS that he would be in full responsibility of that teams defense.

If McDaniels succeeds here, you can give him both the credit of being a good HC (and everything that comes along with it) and OC, because he has the responsibility of both jobs.

The Niners defense laid all on Nolan's hands. I think you're trying to use logic of business duties of a position rather than actually understanding what happened and how every NFL team operates differently.

How about Rex Ryan? Are you going to tell me that he isn't responsible for that defense even though he hand picked and calls the defensive plays? Those are his blitzes and no one else in the league uses them/knows how to use them. You logic to Nolan not being responsible for DC is just as illogical as saying McDaniels is not responsible for the offense here and Rex Ryan not responsible for the defense in NY.


Well, if indeed your correct and Nolan had a major hand in his defense in SF just like Ryan has in NY. Than that would mean that McDaniels had his hands in the defense here. So really, he isnt that smart because he managed to screw up the defense instead of leaving it to the guy who knows what he is doing. If that is your point than i fully agree. McDaniels is not smart for trying to run the defense. :salute:

Denver Native (Carol)
01-21-2010, 05:49 PM
Has ANYONE ever thought that the D was BETTER because of some of the talent Coach McDaniels brought in?????????

JDL
01-21-2010, 05:58 PM
Everyone Ex- Bronco sucks... Got it ... Thanks!

Northman
01-21-2010, 05:58 PM
Has ANYONE ever thought that the D was BETTER because of some of the talent Coach McDaniels brought in?????????

With a 2-8 finish no. The fact that Nolan was able to utilize some of the players we had improved the play. If we were still using a 4-3 this past year it would of been another bloodbath regardless of who was brought in.

LawDog
01-21-2010, 06:07 PM
Has ANYONE ever thought that the D was BETTER because of some of the talent Coach McDaniels brought in?????????

That's part of it to be sure, Carol, but not all of it. Just like you need strength in all three phases of the game - O, D, ST - you also need strength in 3 areas of Defense - Talent, Scheme, Coaching. The three-legged stool analogy works great here. If any of the three legs is short, you slide off and hit the floor, even if one of the legs is quite strong (see e.g. Raiders, they have some very talented players that, on paper, look fantastic, but they are sorely lacking in other areas and thus dwell in the basement). You gotta have three matched legs to do well - now sometimes that means that you drink milk while sitting on the stool next to Daisy, and sometimes you drink beer while sitting at the bar. Either is better than one that has a short leg.

Anyway, sure they brought in some talented guys, Dawkins had a significant impact, but they weren't matched up on all three parts. The DL is not optimized to run the 3-4, so you have to cheat up a bit in other areas to make up for it. If you are committed to the 3-4 scheme, then you have to match up the talent (line) to run it, as well as staff to teach it and play-call it. We'll just have to wait and see how the offseason plays out to see what kind of a D we end up with.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-21-2010, 06:17 PM
Everyone Ex- Bronco sucks... Got it ... Thanks!

Isn't that always how it is! I remember the day that we found out Dennison and Turner were leaving that there were several posters already bashing them before their office chairs had even cooled off. As FAs leave this year or guys get traded, watch how quickly the masses turn on them. It's quite funny.

The day that the Nolan article hit the street, half of this board had a "Nolan wasn't any good and McD was the one who fixed the defense" post already written and published here.

If you're no longer one of us, then you're the ENEMY! Shit, I remember all the hate Alex Gibbs got when he took the job with the Falcons a couple of years back. All of a sudden, he was a terrible O-line coach and Dennison was better anyway if you listened to the Broncos fans. H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S! :lol:

Denver Native (Carol)
01-21-2010, 06:26 PM
That's part of it to be sure, Carol, but not all of it. Just like you need strength in all three phases of the game - O, D, ST - you also need strength in 3 areas of Defense - Talent, Scheme, Coaching. The three-legged stool analogy works great here. If any of the three legs is short, you slide off and hit the floor, even if one of the legs is quite strong (see e.g. Raiders, they have some very talented players that, on paper, look fantastic, but they are sorely lacking in other areas and thus dwell in the basement). You gotta have three matched legs to do well - now sometimes that means that you drink milk while sitting on the stool next to Daisy, and sometimes you drink beer while sitting at the bar. Either is better than one that has a short leg.

Anyway, sure they brought in some talented guys, Dawkins had a significant impact, but they weren't matched up on all three parts. The DL is not optimized to run the 3-4, so you have to cheat up a bit in other areas to make up for it. If you are committed to the 3-4 scheme, then you have to match up the talent (line) to run it, as well as staff to teach it and play-call it. We'll just have to wait and see how the offseason plays out to see what kind of a D we end up with.

Totally understandable, however, when Coach McD took over, this team was nothing more than average. You can not plug all of the holes the first year with FA's and draft choices. It takes time. You only have so much money to sign FA's, and only so many draft choices.

topscribe
01-21-2010, 06:56 PM
Totally understandable, however, when Coach McD took over, this team was nothing more than average. You can not plug all of the holes the first year with FA's and draft choices. It takes time. You only have so much money to sign FA's, and only so many draft choices.

Or available talent or time to evaluate talent and sign or draft it. When McD took
over, the FA cupboard had been stripped pretty bare in some areas, and their
talent evaluation for the draft had to be pretty much a rush job. So, frankly, I'm
quite impressed with the job they did in the FA market and the draft.

-----

Northman
01-21-2010, 07:30 PM
Totally understandable, however, when Coach McD took over, this team was nothing more than average. You can not plug all of the holes the first year with FA's and draft choices. It takes time. You only have so much money to sign FA's, and only so many draft choices.

Especially when you give them away to reach for players.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-21-2010, 07:46 PM
Especially when you give them away to reach for players.

Previous drafts were anything but perfect.

Mr D
01-21-2010, 08:46 PM
Has ANYONE ever thought that the D was BETTER because of some of the talent Coach McDaniels brought in?????????

Good point - that's been on my mind...

dogfish
01-21-2010, 09:56 PM
Previous drafts were anything but perfect.

carol, i understand what you're trying to say here, but it just comes off as defensive. . . you're correct, previous drafts were crap other than '06 and some of the '08 picks-- and that's why the guy primarily responsible for those drafts got FIRED! josh's mission here is to do better than what shanahan did post-elway, and shanny's many failures should not in any way be used to justify mistakes from the present regime. . .

everyone should understand that the cupboard was bare in some areas and that not everything was going to get addressed in one offseason. . . OTOH, JMFMCD chose to rebuild other areas and didn't do that much to address our single most glaring weakness-- even though D-line probably takes longer to develop than maybe any other position except QB. . . given that he created another hole by trading away he who shall not be named, and spent significant resources in some questionable areas (long snapper when we already had a good one, #3 TE, lamont jordan when we had hillis, gaffney and lloyd when we had stokley, etc), he now has to be answerable for the fact that the D-line is still a gaping hole. . .

hopefully he'll address it this year, and hopefully that will make everyone happy. . .

i do agree that people need to show some patience, but IMO some criticism of the way we wasted value trading up half a dozen times last year is valid, and pointing out shanahan's draft failures really does nothing to deflect it. . . if it doesn't happen this year, chalk it up to inexperience and forget it-- but if it continues, he's going to draw a lot of heat for it, and legitimately so. . .

Northman
01-21-2010, 10:00 PM
i do agree that people need to show some patience, but IMO some criticism of the way we wasted value trading up half a dozen times last year is valid, and pointing out shanahan's draft failures really does nothing to deflect it. . . .

This ^

Lonestar
01-21-2010, 11:14 PM
Isn't that always how it is! I remember the day that we found out Dennison and Turner were leaving that there were several posters already bashing them before their office chairs had even cooled off. As FAs leave this year or guys get traded, watch how quickly the masses turn on them. It's quite funny.

The day that the Nolan article hit the street, half of this board had a "Nolan wasn't any good and McD was the one who fixed the defense" post already written and published here.

If you're no longer one of us, then you're the ENEMY! Shit, I remember all the hate Alex Gibbs got when he took the job with the Falcons a couple of years back. All of a sudden, he was a terrible O-line coach and Dennison was better anyway if you listened to the Broncos fans. H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S! :lol:

I can guarantee you did not hear it from me.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

as for Nolan I'm sorry he did not or could not want to stay. I think if he would have decided to go along with Josh's edict (if it really was) about not run blitzing as much next year we could have made more progress than we might if we bring in another scheme again (not by trashing the 3-4 just different terminology for the same plays).

AS for Turner and Dennison I think their time in DEN may have been short anyway so taking promotions well No ONE can say that was not the right thing to do.

but for most the 3 coaches were placed on to high a pedestal while they were good at what they did not irreplaceable.

Lonestar
01-21-2010, 11:20 PM
Or available talent or time to evaluate talent and sign or draft it. When McD took
over, the FA cupboard had been stripped pretty bare in some areas, and their
talent evaluation for the draft had to be pretty much a rush job. So, frankly, I'm quite impressed with the job they did in the FA market and the draft.
-

You forgot to add contrary to a lot of fans not every big named FA or Draft choice could have fit into the new ideal bronco they were looking for. Team player, that is bigger, tougher, faster and smarter than the guys currently on the team.

Josh made the comment that they were looking for certain players that would fit the team goals. There was NO reason to bring in folks they Knew could not make the change, just to bring in bodies.

A total waste of signing bonuses and salary cap if your just likely to cut someone.

Lonestar
01-21-2010, 11:27 PM
i do agree that people need to show some patience, but IMO some criticism of the way we wasted value trading up half a dozen times last year is valid, and pointing out shanahan's draft failures really does nothing to deflect it. . . .

First of all I do not think it was 6 times last year, now I could be wrong but IIRC it was 3 or 4 max.

Second of all if they were not comfortable with other players last year FOR WHATEVER reason should they have wasted the pick or not use it at all?

Yes I know this gets into the we should have had more than a hundred players on the board tail chasing argument.

But the fact was IF they only wanted 100 players why bring someone in that did not fit their profile?

If this happens this year then I'll join the bitch squad, Y'all know that I can be very vocal about head coaches.:salute:

Mr D
01-22-2010, 03:27 AM
i do agree that people need to show some patience, but IMO some criticism of the way we wasted value trading up half a dozen times last year is valid, and pointing out shanahan's draft failures really does nothing to deflect it. . . if it doesn't happen this year, chalk it up to inexperience and forget it-- but if it continues, he's going to draw a lot of heat for it, and legitimately so. . .

Wait, I'm a bit confused. So you're saying that people need to show patience, yet it's valid to declare his performance on a draft? Aren't draft classes supposed to get 2-3 years before you start declaring?

The Phonso trade will always be a question as to why it happened... whether we felt like we couldn't afford another first or they were really high on him because it's not like they HAD to trade that pick... they could have always kept it and traded down this year.

dogfish
01-22-2010, 03:43 AM
You forgot to add contrary to a lot of fans not every big named FA or Draft choice could have fit into the new ideal bronco they were looking for. Team player, that is bigger, tougher, faster and smarter than the guys currently on the team.

Josh made the comment that they were looking for certain players that would fit the team goals. There was NO reason to bring in folks they Knew could not make the change, just to bring in bodies.

A total waste of signing bonuses and salary cap if your just likely to cut someone.

that "bigger, stronger, faster" makes for a great soundbyte, but turning around and drafting a 5'9", 4.5 40 corner kinda flies in the face of that philosophy, no?

i'm not trying to dog phonse too hard-- he showed a lot of talent in college, and i hope he works out for us. . . but bigger and faster he most certainly isn't. . . and for that matter, our top pick was a 4.6 RB-- don't believe everything coach says to the media. . . ;)



Wait, I'm a bit confused. So you're saying that people are showing patience, yet it's valid to declare his performance on a draft? Aren't draft classes supposed to get 2-3 years before you start declaring?

The Phonso trade will always be a question as to why it happened... whether we felt like we couldn't afford another first or they were really high on him because it's not like they HAD to trade that pick... they could have always kept it and traded down this year.

i said people should show some patience. . . and criticising the amount of selections we gave away is not the same as criticising the players we did take, at all. . .

Mr D
01-22-2010, 05:08 AM
i said people should show some patience. . . and criticising the amount of selections we gave away is not the same as criticising the players we did take, at all. . .

It is not - but it wouldn't and won't be criticized if those players turn out well, because at that point all there is to say is you HAD to have traded those picks to select those players.

Lonestar
01-22-2010, 05:23 AM
that "bigger, stronger, faster" makes for a great soundbyte, but turning around and drafting a 5'9", 4.5 40 corner kinda flies in the face of that philosophy, no?

i'm not trying to dog phonse too hard-- he showed a lot of talent in college, and i hope he works out for us. . . but bigger and faster he most certainly isn't. . . and for that matter, our top pick was a 4.6 RB-- don't believe everything coach says to the media. . . ;)




i said people should show some patience. . . and criticising the amount of selections we gave away is not the same as criticising the players we did take, at all. . .



Not so sure he was not bigger, stronger and faster than bly was. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

topscribe
01-22-2010, 12:24 PM
that "bigger, stronger, faster" makes for a great soundbyte, but turning around and drafting a 5'9", 4.5 40 corner kinda flies in the face of that philosophy, no?

i'm not trying to dog phonse too hard-- he showed a lot of talent in college, and i hope he works out for us. . . but bigger and faster he most certainly isn't. . . and for that matter, our top pick was a 4.6 RB-- don't believe everything coach says to the media. . . ;)

i said people should show some patience. . . and criticising the amount of selections we gave away is not the same as criticising the players we did take, at all. . .

Maybe McD knows a little history:

* The commonly regarded G.O.A.T. WR was not necessarily fast (Rice).
* The commonly regarded G.O.A.T. RB was not the fastest (Brown).
* The commonly regarded G.O.A.T. LB was not the fastest (Butkus).
* A CB whom many consider the greatest all-around was not the fastest (Willie Brown).
* The safety whom many are beginning to consider the G.O.A.T. is not necessarily fast (Ed Reed).

The Broncos' All-Pro safety this year is not fast (Dawkins).
Terrell Davis was not fast.

Notice also, in McD's expressed qualifications ("bigger, stronger, faster") that
"faster" is #3 in the order.

But I believe what he was getting at is he wants football players. The Pats
are a team of blue collar players, with a few stars sprinkled here and there,
and they have several rings to show for it.

The Broncos have the stars. McD is after the football players, those "blue
collar" players who compentently do their job and can be relied upon.

This is my take, anyway . . .

-----

topscribe
01-22-2010, 12:27 PM
Not so sure he was not bigger, stronger and faster than bly was. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

The Phonz is a ball-hawk, and he seems to have some football speed.

I think he'll be all right . . .

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broncofaninfla
01-22-2010, 01:02 PM
The Phonz is a ball-hawk, and he seems to have some football speed.

I think he'll be all right . . .

-----

I liked him in college and was very impressed with him at the senior bowl. I think the potential is there just has to learn how to be a pro. Good thing is we have some damn good examples to learn from.

claymore
01-22-2010, 01:03 PM
The Phonz is a ball-hawk, and he seems to have some football speed.

I think he'll be all right . . .

-----

But is he worth the #14 pick?

topscribe
01-22-2010, 01:05 PM
But is he worth the #14 pick?

That remains to be seen. I'll get back to you in another year or so . . .

-----

claymore
01-22-2010, 01:08 PM
That remains to be seen. I'll get back to you in another year or so . . .

-----

So you would use a #14 this year on his college performance/NFL performance?

topscribe
01-22-2010, 01:12 PM
So you would use a #14 this year on his college performance/NFL performance?

I'm not fond of the pick and wasn't at the time. As it stands now, Phonz has
talent, and I believe he will eventually be very good. But I have held a private
resentment that they left Maualuga on the board to take him.

But it is what it is. We must move on from here.

-----

arapaho2
01-22-2010, 01:27 PM
Totally understandable, however, when Coach McD took over, this team was nothing more than average. You can not plug all of the holes the first year with FA's and draft choices. It takes time. You only have so much money to sign FA's, and only so many draft choices.

and it stayed average....the jets were below average...did they stay that way?

as for money we had between 30 and 40 million in cap space last season....and were at the top of the league in number of draft picks we had ten picks...we then added an 11th by tradeing the 2010 bears 1st for a 2nd rnd cb projected to go in the 3rd or 4th...of course we then packaged 2 3rds to get a TE who never really saw the field outside of st..to stay at 10 picks

and out of the ten picks..only two moreno had any real playing time..ayers showed up late in the season...mcbath and bruton did well on special teams

CoachChaz
01-22-2010, 02:59 PM
The Jets were given a pass into the playoffs. Let the Colts and Bangals play with any concern the last 2 weeks and the Jets end up 7-9 after starting out 4-0 and they did this with an amazing line and a much better defense.

let's not get carried away with the Jets complete underachievement this year

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
01-22-2010, 03:01 PM
The Jets are a nice story, but I'm not buying any of it. Colts are going to dominate, Saints are going to advance. Two top seeds in the SB this year.

CoachChaz
01-22-2010, 03:10 PM
The Jets are a nice story, but I'm not buying any of it. Colts are going to dominate, Saints are going to advance. Two top seeds in the SB this year.

I'm going with Minnesota. They cant stop the run and really havent had to very much because teams were always playing catch up. Plus of you look at the teams they played that have superior pass rushers...they lost. I'm saying Minnesota 24...New Orleans 17

Nomad
01-22-2010, 03:21 PM
The Jets are a nice story, but I'm not buying any of it. Colts are going to dominate, Saints are going to advance. Two top seeds in the SB this year.

From what I've been watching on ESPN and listening on sports radio, there are going to be alot of disappointed Jets bandwagoners!! Just think the Jets already have their AFC Championship gear being advertised!!:coffee:

HORSEPOWER 56
01-22-2010, 03:47 PM
Wait, I'm a bit confused. So you're saying that people need to show patience, yet it's valid to declare his performance on a draft? Aren't draft classes supposed to get 2-3 years before you start declaring?

The Phonso trade will always be a question as to why it happened... whether we felt like we couldn't afford another first or they were really high on him because it's not like they HAD to trade that pick... they could have always kept it and traded down this year.

It wasn't just that. We drafted a CB and Safety in the second round (traded up for one of them) when there was a perfectly good NT prospect (Ron Brace) sitting right there.

We traded away picks for a TE. A FRICKIN' BLOCKING TE when we already had 2 solid TEs on the roster! You don't spend a SECOND ROUND PICK on a TE that isn't a receiving threat!

Unless Quinn turns out to be a top 10 TE IN THE LEAGUE, we spent too much on him, period. McBath and Smith get 2-3 years to see what they've got. Richard Quinn will NEVER live up to his 2nd round draft status.

Superchop 7
01-22-2010, 04:15 PM
Defensively, the Jets are playing amazing football, ranked #1 in overall defense, allowing a league low 258.3 yards per game. They finished 7th in rushing yards allowed at just over a 100 per game and 1st in passing defense, giving up only 157.8 yards per game. In addition, they gave up the fewest passing touchdowns, first downs, and yards per attempt. To top it all off, they gave up the fewest points per game, 14.7. Again, all very suffocating and dominating in any number of ways, but the Colts still have a Peyton Manning lead offense that teams have yet to contain. Despite the defensive numbers, the Jets will not be that exception.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______

Will the colts win ? Yes.

( They are "also" blitzing more, article in Washington Post )

Superchop 7
01-22-2010, 04:34 PM
Saints and Jets led the league in blitz percentage.

Patriots were 7th in blitz percentage.

Heres the deal......

If you aren't getting pressure, you damn well better blitz.

Football 101.

McDummy has zero clue at this point if he will have a dominant line, how on earth he could predict a lower percentage based on the unknown.........it sounds more like he wanted Nolan gone and knew just how to do it. (Push his buttons.......standard operating procedure under McDummy)

Denver Native (Carol)
01-22-2010, 05:06 PM
Or, it's better to get pressure, rather than get burned by the blitz

Broncolingus
01-22-2010, 05:08 PM
GP Mr D...:salute:

...and I do not believe that Nolan was 'run off.' Appears after sifting thru all the articles out there, this looked to be about (long term) contract and stability more than anything else.

...JMO.

Superchop 7
01-22-2010, 05:22 PM
The perfect case and point is Leslie Frazier. (Has brilliant blitz packages)

He went from 45.6 percent (blitz) to 30.1

Why ?

He also has the best d line in the biz.

The name of the game is to get to the QB.

Less is more......but....."whatever it takes" is the mantra.

Case in point is Rivers, once his head is on a swivel, he is far less effective. We won because we got to him.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-22-2010, 05:26 PM
The perfect case and point is Leslie Frazier. (Has brilliant blitz packages)

He went from 45.6 percent (blitz) to 30.1

Why ?

He also has the best d line in the biz.

The name of the game is to get to the QB.

Less is more......but....."whatever it takes" is the mantra.

Case in point is Rivers, once his head is on a swivel, he is far less effective. We won becuase we got to him.

So, you have the same opinion as many on here - we need to get MUCH better on the DL - I agree

Broncolingus
01-22-2010, 05:37 PM
So, you have the same opinion as many on here - we need to get MUCH better on the DL - I agree

...what you said, chicka!

rationalfan
01-22-2010, 06:01 PM
Saints and Jets led the league in blitz percentage.

Patriots were 7th in blitz percentage.

Heres the deal......

If you aren't getting pressure, you damn well better blitz.

Football 101.

McDummy has zero clue at this point if he will have a dominant line, how on earth he could predict a lower percentage based on the unknown.........it sounds more like he wanted Nolan gone and knew just how to do it. (Push his buttons.......standard operating procedure under McDummy)

uh, there's a big difference between blitzing the passer and blitzing the run, which is supposedly what the conflict between McD and Nolan was over.

before casting cluelessness, make sure your own clue cupboard is full.

Lonestar
01-22-2010, 07:08 PM
Saints and Jets led the league in blitz percentage.

Patriots were 7th in blitz percentage.

Heres the deal......

If you aren't getting pressure, you damn well better blitz.

Football 101.

McDummy has zero clue at this point if he will have a dominant line, how on earth he could predict a lower percentage based on the unknown.........it sounds more like he wanted Nolan gone and knew just how to do it. (Push his buttons.......standard operating procedure under McDummy)

Are you quoting Pass blitz numbers. Because the rift was about Run blitzes.

We must have sucked at it cause we were second from last in the league in YPC allowed.

Ziggy
01-22-2010, 07:36 PM
I think that most all of us are in agreement that we need more talent and size on the D line. A great line can make any D coordinator look good. Nolan did a wonderful job with what he had to work with. Let's hope that the next coordinator doesn't get put in the same pickle that he was.

topscribe
01-22-2010, 07:50 PM
I think that most all of us are in agreement that we need more talent and size on the D line. A great line can make any D coordinator look good. Nolan did a wonderful job with what he had to work with. Let's hope that the next coordinator doesn't get put in the same pickle that he was.

In my opinion, all the Broncos may need is a Ryan Pickett. That could send
Fields and Thomas out to DE, where their quickness and athleticism would be of
most benefit, and we would have ourselves a defensive line! Just think: nearly
1,000 pounds across the three positions. :nod:

-----

Mr D
01-22-2010, 08:06 PM
It's tough to respond to this type of BS when people don't know what their talking about. No where in my post do you see be talking about the amount of times they blitz, the percentages, nothing like that. We all know Ryan leads the league in blitzing. He'll blitz on almost EVERY PASSING down to pressure the QB. Watch the game this week, and watch the Jets stop the run needing to blitz and watch their dline get a push.

Again, I'm not talking about the amount of times Broncos are blitzing or are not blitzing, that is NOT, I repeat, IS NOT the issue. It's about blitzing in order to stop the run. THE AMOUNT OF TIMES THE BRONCOS BLITZ OR DO NOT BLITZ IS NOT THE ISSUE! :lol:

What the stats don't tell you is the down and distance of those blitzes, whether it was a run or pass blitz, or the actual blitz. If you guys could actually SEE what I'm talking about it'd make sense, but when you're sitting around looking at stats that you think you know, you're just making yourself look stupid.

When teams start to have trouble stopping the run - they bring down players and pack the box and have the LB's and safties read for the run.

I'm not about to break the whole football 101 down on blitzing, but just know that blitzing to stop the run is not a good idea (no one is saying don't EVER do it, but when you're RELIANT on it, it is a problem) and you have no idea WTF you're talking about.

Mr D
01-22-2010, 08:10 PM
If you aren't getting pressure, you damn well better blitz.

Football 101.

McDummy has zero clue at this point if he will have a dominant line, how on earth he could predict a lower percentage based on the unknown.........it sounds more like he wanted Nolan gone and knew just how to do it. (Push his buttons.......standard operating procedure under McDummy)

That's not football 101. How old are you?

There are different philosophies on all that type of sh1t, there isn't a ground rule that says YOU BETTER BLITZ IF YOU'RE NOT GETTING PRESSURE! People believe in only rushing 4 and doing stunts, etc. Some people who are aggressive like to bring the heat. Some people don't blitz at all.

How long have you been a Broncos fan? Were you here with Jim Bates or when we had that horrid dline that could never get any pressure? I think it was the year we traded for the Browns dline.

You'd watch down after down 4 guys trying to attack the QB. Or when Jim Bates was here and trying to implement his own scheme, you wouldn't see a blitz just because we couldn't get pressure.

Again, I'm done with this type of debate when people have no clue what they're saying.

topscribe
01-22-2010, 08:38 PM
It's tough to respond to this type of BS when people don't know what their talking about. No where in my post do you see be talking about the amount of times they blitz, the percentages, nothing like that. We all know Ryan leads the league in blitzing. He'll blitz on almost EVERY PASSING down to pressure the QB. Watch the game this week, and watch the Jets stop the run needing to blitz and watch their dline get a push.

Again, I'm not talking about the amount of times Broncos are blitzing or are not blitzing, that is NOT, I repeat, IS NOT the issue. It's about blitzing in order to stop the run. THE AMOUNT OF TIMES THE BRONCOS BLITZ OR DO NOT BLITZ IS NOT THE ISSUE! :lol:

What the stats don't tell you is the down and distance of those blitzes, whether it was a run or pass blitz, or the actual blitz. If you guys could actually SEE what I'm talking about it'd make sense, but when you're sitting around looking at stats that you think you know, you're just making yourself look stupid.

When teams start to have trouble stopping the run - they bring down players and pack the box and have the LB's and safties read for the run.

I'm not about to break the whole football 101 down on blitzing, but just know that blitzing to stop the run is not a good idea (no one is saying don't EVER do it, but when you're RELIANT on it, it is a problem) and you have no idea WTF you're talking about.


That's not football 101. How old are you?

There are different philosophies on all that type of sh1t, there isn't a ground rule that says YOU BETTER BLITZ IF YOU'RE NOT GETTING PRESSURE! People believe in only rushing 4 and doing stunts, etc. Some people who are aggressive like to bring the heat. Some people don't blitz at all.

How long have you been a Broncos fan? Were you here with Jim Bates or when we had that horrid dline that could never get any pressure? I think it was the year we traded for the Browns dline.

You'd watch down after down 4 guys trying to attack the QB. Or when Jim Bates was here and trying to implement his own scheme, you wouldn't see a blitz just because we couldn't get pressure.

Again, I'm done with this type of debate when people have no clue what they're saying.

I'm sure everybody here appreciates your contributions when they really are
contributions. But coming across as if you are the only one on the board who
knows what he is talking about will not get you very far here. We have a lot
of posters who are very knowledgeable . . . some are even coaches. Probably
a little more complimentary approach may be in order . . .

BTW, Moreno is not #24, and Ayers is not #91.

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LRtagger
01-23-2010, 03:58 PM
Nolan is the best Coordinator we've had in a long time. He isnt easily replaceable.

So what you're saying is McDaniel's first DC hire was better than any DC Shanahan ever hired? That is quite the compliment for McD :D

turftoad
01-23-2010, 04:47 PM
So what you're saying is McDaniel's first DC hire was better than any DC Shanahan ever hired? That is quite the compliment for McD :D

Yep it was however, to bad his ego was to big to keep him here.

Lonestar
01-23-2010, 06:53 PM
Yep it was however, to bad his ego was to big to keep him here.



Now we really do not know that do we. when your boss says do something it is most likely for the greater good.

We all know that our RUN D sucked for the last part of the season.

What we do not know is how many of those yards are because of the run blitzing we were doing. NONE of US do.

SO it might even be Nolans EGO that lead to his leaving. We may never know, what really happened.

I'm happy for Nolan as I thought he was great hire initially and during the first 6 weeks he was all world since then not so sure he was much better than slowitt was at least on paper he was not.

Northman
01-23-2010, 07:06 PM
Now we really do not know that do we. when your boss says do something it is most likely for the greater good.



http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/7/28/633843813416251630-forthegreatergood.jpg

Lonestar
01-23-2010, 07:20 PM
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/7/28/633843813416251630-forthegreatergood.jpg
\


At least I see some light in this unlike some.

LRtagger
01-23-2010, 07:43 PM
Yep it was however, to bad his ego was to big to keep him here.

Maybe...Maybe not. Neither one of us know that for a fact.

What we do know to be a fact is that it took Josh McDaniels one year to get a coach in here that helped our defense while Mike Shanahan took 14 years and couldnt get that much accomplished.

MAYBE we should give McD the benefit of the doubt and assume he will be able to bring in another good coach(s).

Mr D
01-24-2010, 06:05 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14256207

"Anything regarding 'I wouldn't let him do that, I wouldn't let him do this' is totally false," McDaniels said. "It was mutual. I think it's best for all of us. The defensive philosophy that we use, that's ours. That's not going anywhere. It's our second year in the system, and we'll continue to do better. I have a lot of respect for Mike, and I wish him well. But I think this is going to be the best thing for the Broncos and the best thing for Mike Nolan. I think everybody wins in this."

Mr D
01-24-2010, 07:04 AM
Oh yeah, and for those who were still not convinced of Nolan being a conservative coach... I have a treat.

I made the original post AFTER reading many of these articles now and reading articles BEFORE the season of being an aggressive mind set dcord. However, I'd take it from the fans who actually watched the game and quotes from actual NFL owners (DAN SNYDER).

http://forums.rotoworld.com/index.php?showtopic=116621


Nolan will hopefully give the defense an identity, but he does have a reputation as being too conservative, as well. http://www.modbee.com/sports/story/146073.html


One of Nolan's most criticized traits has been his conservative coaching style.


"I think Nolan is very intelligent," said Harry Mitchell, 44, of Modesto. "But his conservative ways will lead the 49ers into mediocrity.

"When Nolan was the defensive coordinator with the Washington Redskins, (owner) Daniel Snyder would get so upset with Nolan and his "vanilla" playcalling and schemes, after one practice, he left a gallon of Neapolitan sherbet on Nolan's desk and a note that said 'This is what I like. Not Vanilla.' Needless to say, Nolan soon left to the Jets. It seems his conservative ways ways have followed him here."

I have more but seriously, that should be enough.

Mr D
01-24-2010, 07:07 AM
I'm sure everybody here appreciates your contributions when they really are
contributions. But coming across as if you are the only one on the board who
knows what he is talking about will not get you very far here. We have a lot
of posters who are very knowledgeable . . . some are even coaches. Probably
a little more complimentary approach may be in order . . .

BTW, Moreno is not #24, and Ayers is not #91.

-----

I understand and I'm not exactly here to be a teacher so I'm not trying to get a classroom to mesh. I've kind of developed this way of posting from orangemane where there is some ridiculously stupid posters that are supposed fans. I guess I can try to lighten up a bit when I post here. I'm sure there are! I hope there are, because I don't want to be the only one with something to offer, that would suck. The crowd here does seem to be much more fan like and positive!

The sig was made on draft day and those pics are from easports.com... so they didn't have their new numbers... those were their numbers in college.

You really don't think I wouldn't know Champ's number at this point! LOL

:beer:

Dean
01-24-2010, 08:27 AM
Oh yeah, and for those who were still not convinced of Nolan being a conservative coach... I have a treat.

I made the original post AFTER reading many of these articles now and reading articles BEFORE the season of being an aggressive mind set dcord. However, I'd take it from the fans who actually watched the game and quotes from actual NFL owners (DAN SNYDER).

http://forums.rotoworld.com/index.php?showtopic=116621

http://www.modbee.com/sports/story/146073.html



I have more but seriously, that should be enough.

I am confused. Isn't the first quote from a fan and the second about Nolan's decisions as a head coach- not his defensive play calling?

HORSEPOWER 56
01-24-2010, 09:52 AM
Oh yeah, and for those who were still not convinced of Nolan being a conservative coach... I have a treat.

I made the original post AFTER reading many of these articles now and reading articles BEFORE the season of being an aggressive mind set dcord. However, I'd take it from the fans who actually watched the game and quotes from actual NFL owners (DAN SNYDER).

http://forums.rotoworld.com/index.php?showtopic=116621

http://www.modbee.com/sports/story/146073.html



I have more but seriously, that should be enough.

And yet, I thought taking a defense from 29th in the league to 7th "should be enough".

But then, who the hell am I anyway?

LRtagger
01-24-2010, 12:43 PM
And yet, I thought taking a defense from 29th in the league to 7th "should be enough".

But then, who the hell am I anyway?

As if he did it all alone.

dogfish
01-24-2010, 12:53 PM
i KNOW you didn't just quote dan snyder as a reputable football source!


:lol::lol:

Mr D
01-24-2010, 04:21 PM
I am confused. Isn't the first quote from a fan and the second about Nolan's decisions as a head coach- not his defensive play calling?

Yeah - there is an abundance of fans posting about his conservativeness on defense, what does that tell you? I trust fans who actually watch the game over writers. Not just 1 fan or 2 but when the whole fan nation is talking about it.... what does that tell you know?

And no, he was a DC when he was with the Redskins, in the second quote.

Ziggy
01-24-2010, 05:44 PM
It's a shame that Nolan can't just part ways mutually without being bashed. He did a wonderful job on a defense that is severely lacking talent along the line. I'm obviously pro McD, but it doesn't mean that Nolan did a bad job. He earned my respect and I applaud the improvements he made with this D. I don't care how much of it was him, and how much was others. He was a part of it, and for that I thank him. Change doesn't have to breed contempt, but it seems to in these forums. Sad, really.

Dean
01-24-2010, 06:13 PM
Yeah - there is an abundance of fans posting about his conservativeness on defense, what does that tell you? I trust fans who actually watch the game over writers. Not just 1 fan or 2 but when the whole fan nation is talking about it.... what does that tell you know?

And no, he was a DC when he was with the Redskins, in the second quote.

I misunderstood. I thought that you were offering proof to verify your statement.

. . . and I am not sure what the statement "what does it tell you know" means.