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Ziggy
01-18-2010, 11:42 AM
John Engleberger- Out of NFL
Dwayne Robertson- Out of NFL
Marcus Thomas- still with Broncos
Elvis Dumervil- still with Broncos
DJ Williams- still with Broncos
Nate Webster- Out of NFL
Jamie Winborn- Out of NFL most of the season. Signed with Titans in Dec.
Champ Bailey- still with Broncos
Dre Bly- #2 cb for 49'ers, played well overall
Marquand Manuel- with Detroit Lions, ended season on IR
Marlon McCree-Out of NFL


Listed above is the starting roster for the 2008 Denver Broncos defense. This is what McDaniels inherited. They finished 29th in yards/game and 31st in points given up. Having given up more than 400 points (448) for the 2nd straight season, they were considered by most to be the worst defense in franchise history.

As you can see, the overall talent level was not only sub-par, but simply a joke. 4 starters are currently out of the league, not being talented enough to make it as a backup on even the worst NFL defenses. Another was out most of the season before being signed in December to a team plagued with injuries at the position.

The 2009 version of the Broncos defense finished 7th in yards/game and 20th in points/game, given up 124 less points throughout the course of the season.

While Mike Nolan deserves a share of the credit for the turnaround, the majority of it must go to the man that brought in new players, hired Nolan, and insisted on running a 3-4 scheme. Yes folks, Josh McDaniels. While blaming him for fallouts with Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, and Tony Scheffler, few have given him credit for turning one of the worst defenses in the NFL to one that can compete with any team.

Despite playing without a "franchise" QB, installing new systems on both sides of the ball, playing for new coaches, playing a harder schedule, and having a large influx of new players, many rookies, this team finished with the same record as last year's team. Hate all you want folks, but I call that a good job. McDaniels has made mistakes, and still has a lot to prove, but I see progress.

I'd much rather walk into next season with this year's defense than last. Would I rather walk into next season with last year's offense that this year's? Sure, but if I have to make a choice, and I do.......... I'll take the team with the decent defense and horrible offense over the team with the decent offense and horrible defense all day long and twice on Sundays. The work is just beginning, and there's a whole lot more to be done between now and the day that this team challenges for a championship, and it's going to take time.

If McDaniels had inherited a team like the Jets, that are solid along the LOS on both sides of the ball, with a great running game and a ton of talent on defense, it would be a different story. However, this team wasn't and still isn't. Talent in the trenches is not aquired overnight. It's a process. Now it's time for McDaniels to prove that he's willing to follow that process, and not the one that has been followed around this town for years....the "one player away" approach. Let the offseason begin!

SoCalImport
01-18-2010, 11:47 AM
Great post, man.
With all this talk about being stronger at the point of attack, you can bet'cher britches that we'll be picking up some bigger players (rookies or otherwise) at OG, C, NT and DE.

SmilinAssasSin27
01-18-2010, 11:55 AM
Well put. Don't forget about Boss Bailey and some of the other pure wastes of roster spots and money...

pnbronco
01-18-2010, 11:59 AM
Great post Zig. The D has had to learn a different scheme every year since Elvis has been a bronco. Also how many times have they moved DJ, a bunch. I would like to see what they can do when they don't have to learn new schemes and just focus on getting better at timing.

pnbronco
01-18-2010, 12:00 PM
Well put. Don't forget about Boss Bailey and some of the other pure wastes of roster spots and money...

The money on Boss killed me. He got a lot for play was it even 2 games? I try to block that one out.....:D

Dirk
01-18-2010, 12:04 PM
The money on Boss killed me. He got a lot for play was it even 2 games? I try to block that one out.....:D

I think it was a favor to Champ. Otherwise I just can't understand it. :confused:

Ziggy
01-18-2010, 12:06 PM
Well put. Don't forget about Boss Bailey and some of the other pure wastes of roster spots and money...

I didn't forget about Boss or Niko. I just wanted to focus on the players that started most of the year.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-18-2010, 12:13 PM
Great post Ziggy - what totally blows my mind is that some do not realize what Josh faced last year.

As he stated in one article I posted, because he was hired in January, scouting for the draft was limited.

His first assignment - Replacing the Broncos' starting QB

Spending time recruiting/signing FA

Trying to teach a TOTALLY new offensive/defensive scheme

etc., etc., etc.

Dirk
01-18-2010, 12:39 PM
I'm with you Carol. I give McD all the credit he deserves. He did a great job this year with what he had.

Sure he made mistakes. Most coaches do. But, he made mistakes that seasoned coaches do and he is a rookie HC. I salute him! :salute:

I also give Orton his props. Playing most of the season injured and learning a new offense. Not a bad outing at all for him. :salute:

nevcraw
01-18-2010, 12:57 PM
Great post Ziggy - what totally blows my mind is that some do not realize what Josh faced last year.

As he stated in one article I posted, because he was hired in January, scouting for the draft was limited.

His first assignment - Replacing the Broncos' starting QB

Spending time recruiting/signing FA

Trying to teach a TOTALLY new offensive/defensive scheme

etc., etc., etc.

that was totally his choice to do so.. where he deserves a ton credit for the defensive turnaround (save the in ability to stop the run Late) he also deserves the lion share of blame for the offensive blunders.. Had he done a better job marrying the scheme to the players skills, the outcome would have far greater.

SoCalImport
01-18-2010, 01:01 PM
I didn't forget about Boss or Niko. I just wanted to focus on the players that started most of the year.

That just made me throw up a little....ugh..

Just thinking about how high some of us (me included) were on the idea that we stole one from under the Seahawks noses.

I'm going to smack myself now...


sorry. Back to thread

Denver Native (Carol)
01-18-2010, 01:19 PM
that was totally his choice to do so.. where he deserves a ton credit for the defensive turnaround (save the in ability to stop the run Late) he also deserves the lion share of blame for the offensive blunders.. Had he done a better job marrying the scheme to the players skills, the outcome would have far greater.

So - by you saying that Coach McD should have done a better job marrying the scheme to the players skills, is it fair to assume that you feel that ALL offensive players on the Broncos have the SAME skills???????

Also, do you feel that Coach Nolen married the scheme to the defensive players skills???? If I remember correctly, some defensive players were ask to play new positions on the defense - i.e. Doom - drafted as defensive end - but played outside linebacker in Nolen's scheme.

Guess I am not following your criticism of Coach McD :confused:

Thnikkaman
01-18-2010, 01:33 PM
May I post this somewhere else Ziggy? Some if not Many forget the positives from last off season.

Ziggy
01-18-2010, 01:36 PM
May I post this somewhere else Ziggy? Some if not Many forget the positives from last off season.

Of course.

Lonestar
01-18-2010, 01:50 PM
that was totally his choice to do so.. where he deserves a ton credit for the defensive turnaround (save the in ability to stop the run Late) he also deserves the lion share of blame for the offensive blunders.. Had he done a better job marrying the scheme to the players skills, the outcome would have far greater.

I believe that a player should be able to do basic skills for their position. Knowing that his OLINE was one of the best the year before, he moved on without major surgery there, after knowing we had an oline coach that should have been able to teach them up to become multi functional not just one trick ponies.

That was the error and when Harris went down, there was no more smoke and mirrors they could use to hide the real weakness of the OLINE and we all know now pass protect and drive blocking is not done without strength and MASS.
He ran with what he had assuming they would produce, I'm sure that dennison told him they could. Or more changes would have been made.

Now dennison is gone and we will see some real changes made.

I see 320 as a standard. For the interior of the OLINE and 330+ for the OTs. Clady and Harris will stay and Kuper is mean enough to make it if they can bulk him up a bit. But casey and hamilton are toast IMO.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

silkamilkamonico
01-18-2010, 02:47 PM
that was totally his choice to do so.. where he deserves a ton credit for the defensive turnaround (save the in ability to stop the run Late) he also deserves the lion share of blame for the offensive blunders.. Had he done a better job marrying the scheme to the players skills, the outcome would have far greater.

Even greater than it was? That would be a coaching chadidate of the year kind of job.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-18-2010, 03:38 PM
Even greater than it was? That would be a coaching chadidate of the year kind of job.

I think that's his point. One thing to remember out of this whole "love fest" is that the day McDaniels took over, the Broncos were an 8-8 football team. We weren't the Rams, or Chiefs, or Raiders, or Browns. We were an "average" team that couldn't get over the hump. We're still that team. Had McDaniels changed NOTHING, we'd probably still have ended up 8-8 with a good offense and poor defense.

Had McDaniels gotten us into the playoffs his first season, he probably would've been a COY candidate. Once again, most guys aren't criticizing that we didn't make the playoffs. Most just have a really bad taste in their mouth over the way we finished. 6-0 start, 2-8 finish. The most glaring problem that the Broncos have had for 4+ years, and it's still THE MOST GLARING PROBLEM.

topscribe
01-18-2010, 03:42 PM
So - by you saying that Coach McD should have done a better job marrying the scheme to the players skills, is it fair to assume that you feel that ALL offensive players on the Broncos have the SAME skills???????

Also, do you feel that Coach Nolen married the scheme to the defensive players skills???? If I remember correctly, some defensive players were ask to play new positions on the defense - i.e. Doom - drafted as defensive end - but played outside linebacker in Nolen's scheme.

Guess I am not following your criticism of Coach McD :confused:

Of all the criticism of coaching this year, that was not the problem.

The problem was talent. Period.

Upon reviewing the KC game, one on the O-line played well: Clady.

One on the D-line played well: Fields.

That's it. The lines are undersized and under-talented. They need to use
trades, FAs, and the draft to acquire bigger and better linemen.

Forget the QB. He's fine. Forget the WRs (even without Marshall). They're fine.
RBs are fine. So are the LBs (although I would love to see McClain or Spikes
suited up in the O&B) and the secondary.

The lines, on either side of the LOS, are not fine. And this goes back to the
old fundamental football adage: games are won (and lost) in the trenches.
So where the games are won and lost, the Broncos just don't have it.

When the lines are bad, the QB looks bad, the RBs look bad, the secondary
looks bad, and the coaches look bad. Let's break through our shallow analyses,
folks, and start looking at real causes of failure, not just what pops to the
surface . . .

-----

Lonestar
01-18-2010, 03:55 PM
Top your correct you win and lose on the LOS. When your oline is out weighed byas much as 60 pounds your OG and C are going to be beat 95% of the time.

When your NT is out weighed by 35-50 pounds not to mention there maybe two players breifly blocking him at once he does not stand a chance. Those double teaming him cab easily peel off to got to the second level.

I don't understand why NO ONE gets it. I guess my time as an ORG allows me to see it so clear.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

silkamilkamonico
01-18-2010, 04:08 PM
I think that's his point. One thing to remember out of this whole "love fest" is that the day McDaniels took over, the Broncos were an 8-8 football team. We weren't the Rams, or Chiefs, or Raiders, or Browns. We were an "average" team that couldn't get over the hump. We're still that team. Had McDaniels changed NOTHING, we'd probably still have ended up 8-8 with a good offense and poor defense.

Had McDaniels gotten us into the playoffs his first season, he probably would've been a COY candidate. Once again, most guys aren't criticizing that we didn't make the playoffs. Most just have a really bad taste in their mouth over the way we finished. 6-0 start, 2-8 finish. The most glaring problem that the Broncos have had for 4+ years, and it's still THE MOST GLARING PROBLEM.

I believe it's a culture thing, and was made constant by the way Shanahan consistently held his favorites hand. The only way to get rid of that is for McDaniels to contineously clean house and turnover the franchise.

Medford Bronco
01-18-2010, 04:11 PM
Great post, man.
With all this talk about being stronger at the point of attack, you can bet'cher britches that we'll be picking up some bigger players (rookies or otherwise) at OG, C, NT and DE.

I would like to see him emulate the OL and DL that Ne had in 2003-2004

Hate NE or not, those guys were beasts on both sides of the ball.

Brady rarely gets sacked even now. He does get rid of the ball quickly though.

Ziggy
01-18-2010, 04:34 PM
I think that's his point. One thing to remember out of this whole "love fest" is that the day McDaniels took over, the Broncos were an 8-8 football team. We weren't the Rams, or Chiefs, or Raiders, or Browns. We were an "average" team that couldn't get over the hump. We're still that team. Had McDaniels changed NOTHING, we'd probably still have ended up 8-8 with a good offense and poor defense.

Had McDaniels gotten us into the playoffs his first season, he probably would've been a COY candidate. Once again, most guys aren't criticizing that we didn't make the playoffs. Most just have a really bad taste in their mouth over the way we finished. 6-0 start, 2-8 finish. The most glaring problem that the Broncos have had for 4+ years, and it's still THE MOST GLARING PROBLEM.

Yes, we are. McDaniels is in the process of changing that. Somehow, you and others think that it is possible to do that in a year when you are severely lacking in talent and size along the LOS. The NFL doesn't work that way. It takes YEARS to build talent along the lines, not one offseason. Anyone who knows football knows that.

You sit here and state that it's been a glaring problem for years. No kidding. It took a decade to make our lines nearly devoid of talent, which is the biggest reason for the end of season collapses. Now that Shanahan is gone, McD should be able to snap his fingers and change it in an instant, right? Wrong.

nevcraw
01-18-2010, 04:53 PM
So - by you saying that Coach McD should have done a better job marrying the scheme to the players skills, is it fair to assume that you feel that ALL offensive players on the Broncos have the SAME skills???????

Also, do you feel that Coach Nolen married the scheme to the defensive players skills???? If I remember correctly, some defensive players were ask to play new positions on the defense - i.e. Doom - drafted as defensive end - but played outside linebacker in Nolen's scheme.

Guess I am not following your criticism of Coach McD :confused:

well that's ok.. I don't follow your questions either.. :laugh:

here are my criticisms -

FACT: The coach went 8-8, not an improvement from the previous year.

FACT: He dismantled a previous effective offense and replaced with a less efective one.

FACT: In his offense players who were effective the year before were no longer effective.

IMO: He was hellbent on instillling his offense with whatever skills sets he had, and it cost games.

So.. not my intention to rain on the love fest but I do not see how the coach does not deserve criticism for the hatchet job to the one area of the team he was known for...

nevcraw
01-18-2010, 04:55 PM
Top your correct you win and lose on the LOS. When your oline is out weighed byas much as 60 pounds your OG and C are going to be beat 95% of the time.

When your NT is out weighed by 35-50 pounds not to mention there maybe two players breifly blocking him at once he does not stand a chance. Those double teaming him cab easily peel off to got to the second level.

I don't understand why NO ONE gets it. I guess my time as an ORG allows me to see it so clear.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

Yeah.. it really hurt us against the the packers in the SB..
next..

broncofaninfla
01-18-2010, 04:58 PM
John Engleberger- Out of NFL
Dwayne Robertson- Out of NFL
Marcus Thomas- still with Broncos
Elvis Dumervil- still with Broncos
DJ Williams- still with Broncos
Nate Webster- Out of NFL
Jamie Winborn- Out of NFL most of the season. Signed with Titans in Dec.
Champ Bailey- still with Broncos
Dre Bly- #2 cb for 49'ers, played well overall
Marquand Manuel- with Detroit Lions, ended season on IR
Marlon McCree-Out of NFL


Listed above is the starting roster for the 2008 Denver Broncos defense. This is what McDaniels inherited. They finished 29th in yards/game and 31st in points given up. Having given up more than 400 points (448) for the 2nd straight season, they were considered by most to be the worst defense in franchise history.

As you can see, the overall talent level was not only sub-par, but simply a joke. 4 starters are currently out of the league, not being talented enough to make it as a backup on even the worst NFL defenses. Another was out most of the season before being signed in December to a team plagued with injuries at the position.

The 2009 version of the Broncos defense finished 7th in yards/game and 20th in points/game, given up 124 less points throughout the course of the season.

While Mike Nolan deserves a share of the credit for the turnaround, the majority of it must go to the man that brought in new players, hired Nolan, and insisted on running a 3-4 scheme. Yes folks, Josh McDaniels. While blaming him for fallouts with Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, and Tony Scheffler, few have given him credit for turning one of the worst defenses in the NFL to one that can compete with any team.

Despite playing without a "franchise" QB, installing new systems on both sides of the ball, playing for new coaches, playing a harder schedule, and having a large influx of new players, many rookies, this team finished with the same record as last year's team. Hate all you want folks, but I call that a good job. McDaniels has made mistakes, and still has a lot to prove, but I see progress.

I'd much rather walk into next season with this year's defense than last. Would I rather walk into next season with last year's offense that this year's? Sure, but if I have to make a choice, and I do.......... I'll take the team with the decent defense and horrible offense over the team with the decent offense and horrible defense all day long and twice on Sundays. The work is just beginning, and there's a whole lot more to be done between now and the day that this team challenges for a championship, and it's going to take time.

If McDaniels had inherited a team like the Jets, that are solid along the LOS on both sides of the ball, with a great running game and a ton of talent on defense, it would be a different story. However, this team wasn't and still isn't. Talent in the trenches is not aquired overnight. It's a process. Now it's time for McDaniels to prove that he's willing to follow that process, and not the one that has been followed around this town for years....the "one player away" approach. Let the offseason begin!

Good post, but why no mention of the offense that Mcd inherited?

Also feel Nolan deserves more credit than you shown him here. He was involved with evaluating the free agents brought in as well and other than Le Kevin Smith (acquired in a trade via the Patriots) all the new defensive players made solid contrbutions. We still lack the talent on the DL that we need but were able to do a pretty damn good job with what we had, Nolans game planning and schemes are to thank. Add to that the constant pressure being put on the defense with the offense going 3 and out so often and not putting points on the board just adds to the great contribution Nolan brings to the Broncos.

nevcraw
01-18-2010, 04:58 PM
Of all the criticism of coaching this year, that was not the problem.

The problem was talent. Period.

Upon reviewing the KC game, one on the O-line played well: Clady.

One on the D-line played well: Fields.

That's it. The lines are undersized and under-talented. They need to use
trades, FAs, and the draft to acquire bigger and better linemen.

Forget the QB. He's fine. Forget the WRs (even without Marshall). They're fine.
RBs are fine. So are the LBs (although I would love to see McClain or Spikes
suited up in the O&B) and the secondary.

The lines, on either side of the LOS, are not fine. And this goes back to the
old fundamental football adage: games are won (and lost) in the trenches.
So where the games are won and lost, the Broncos just don't have it.

When the lines are bad, the QB looks bad, the RBs look bad, the secondary
looks bad, and the coaches look bad. Let's break through our shallow analyses,
folks, and start looking at real causes of failure, not just what pops to the
surface . . .

-----

I disagree. respectively..
the OL was considered around the league as one of the best. they were then asked to man up instead of zone which failed. are the players no good now? you say yes.. I say no - they were mis-used.

Lonestar
01-18-2010, 05:02 PM
Ziggy your spot on it took KC a few years to have the best OLINE in the NFL and it stayed that way for most of a decade. Their failure was bringing in youngsters from time to time to groom behind what ultimately fell apart and they are rebuilding it again. Hence the huge yards charles laid on our totally undersized front 3. None of which demands a double team which allows the OG's (what Josh wants to do) pull and get to the next level.

Why the BSQ does not get this is really beyond my comprehension.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

silkamilkamonico
01-18-2010, 05:06 PM
well that's ok.. I don't follow your questions either.. :laugh:

here are my criticisms -

FACT: The coach went 8-8, not an improvement from the previous year. Not a decline either, like everyone thought. And hoped.

FACT: He dismantled a previous effective offense and replaced with a less efective one. We were average in points scored, and only scored a FG a game less. Not to mentoion, how many points was our offense responsible for our defense last year? That was a significanty improvement, even with the 2 int's for TD's the last game.

FACT: In his offense players who were effective the year before were no longer effective. It's a different system. How many of Shanahan's players are effective in other systems. Shanahan had starters that couldn't even make teams like the Texans.

IMO: He was hellbent on instillling his offense with whatever skills sets he had, and it cost games. LMAO Kind of like last year, with our "effective" offenses turnovers. See the Miami game specifically.

So.. not my intention to rain on the love fest but I do not see how the coach does not deserve criticism for the hatchet job to the one area of the team he was known for...

Coach deserves criticism, like 95% of the coaches in the NFL. Let's not sit here and pretend we had this perfect thing going from 2008 though, that would be absurd.

Shazam!
01-18-2010, 05:08 PM
John Engleberger- Out of NFL
Dwayne Robertson- Out of NFL
Marcus Thomas- still with Broncos
Elvis Dumervil- still with Broncos
DJ Williams- still with Broncos
Nate Webster- Out of NFL
Jamie Winborn- Out of NFL most of the season. Signed with Titans in Dec.
Champ Bailey- still with Broncos
Dre Bly- #2 cb for 49'ers, played well overall
Marquand Manuel- with Detroit Lions, ended season on IR
Marlon McCree-Out of NFL


Listed above is the starting roster for the 2008 Denver Broncos defense. This is what McDaniels inherited. They finished 29th in yards/game and 31st in points given up. Having given up more than 400 points (448) for the 2nd straight season, they were considered by most to be the worst defense in franchise history.

As you can see, the overall talent level was not only sub-par, but simply a joke. 4 starters are currently out of the league, not being talented enough to make it as a backup on even the worst NFL defenses. Another was out most of the season before being signed in December to a team plagued with injuries at the position.

The 2009 version of the Broncos defense finished 7th in yards/game and 20th in points/game, given up 124 less points throughout the course of the season.

While Mike Nolan deserves a share of the credit for the turnaround, the majority of it must go to the man that brought in new players, hired Nolan, and insisted on running a 3-4 scheme. Yes folks, Josh McDaniels. While blaming him for fallouts with Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, and Tony Scheffler, few have given him credit for turning one of the worst defenses in the NFL to one that can compete with any team.

Despite playing without a "franchise" QB, installing new systems on both sides of the ball, playing for new coaches, playing a harder schedule, and having a large influx of new players, many rookies, this team finished with the same record as last year's team. Hate all you want folks, but I call that a good job. McDaniels has made mistakes, and still has a lot to prove, but I see progress.

I'd much rather walk into next season with this year's defense than last. Would I rather walk into next season with last year's offense that this year's? Sure, but if I have to make a choice, and I do.......... I'll take the team with the decent defense and horrible offense over the team with the decent offense and horrible defense all day long and twice on Sundays. The work is just beginning, and there's a whole lot more to be done between now and the day that this team challenges for a championship, and it's going to take time.

If McDaniels had inherited a team like the Jets, that are solid along the LOS on both sides of the ball, with a great running game and a ton of talent on defense, it would be a different story. However, this team wasn't and still isn't. Talent in the trenches is not aquired overnight. It's a process. Now it's time for McDaniels to prove that he's willing to follow that process, and not the one that has been followed around this town for years....the "one player away" approach. Let the offseason begin!

I didn't have to add this, but I felt I must...

Great post.

silkamilkamonico
01-18-2010, 05:09 PM
I disagree. respectively..
the OL was considered around the league as one of the best. they were then asked to man up instead of zone which failed. are the players no good now? you say yes.. I say no - they were mis-used.

That's a terrible argument. You're insinuating that the next head coach should come in and run Shanahan's system. Sorry, but that's ridiculous. McDaniels even saved face and kept some of the ZBS system, and after Harris went out, even that failed miserably.

dogfish
01-18-2010, 05:16 PM
Well put. Don't forget about Boss Bailey and some of the other pure wastes of roster spots and money...

and vernon fox. . . and niko K. . . and josh mallard. . . and. . .

no, i gotta stop before i dig my eyes out-- it's like having nam flashbacks. . . arghh, spiders!!

:frusty:



no, relax-- deep breath. . . that's all over with now. . .

dogfish
01-18-2010, 05:17 PM
I see 320 as a standard. For the interior of the OLINE and 330+ for the OTs. Clady and Harris will stay and Kuper is mean enough to make it if they can bulk him up a bit. But casey and hamilton are toast IMO.



why settle for 320? let's go for the gusto and make it 350!

:woot:






I don't understand why NO ONE gets it. I guess my time as an ORG allows me to see it so clear.



were you 320+?


:D

nevcraw
01-18-2010, 05:28 PM
That's a terrible argument. You're insinuating that the next head coach should come in and run Shanahan's system. Sorry, but that's ridiculous. McDaniels even saved face and kept some of the ZBS system, and after Harris went out, even that failed miserably.

um ok..
my argument is fine..
I used the term marry.. and i beleive he should have better used the skills sets of the players than he did.. it is what good coaches do. i said nothing about him sticking with the WCO or the ZBS, but the skill sets of the the once exhalted line masybe was better suited for something else. something that didnt suck as bad.
BTW - hate to always use the same example but didn't Mike Tomlin come into Pittsburg and keep the same defense that was there under the Cower regime?? yeah that was soo rediculous..

Ziggy
01-18-2010, 05:49 PM
Good post, but why no mention of the offense that Mcd inherited?
Also feel Nolan deserves more credit than you shown him here. He was involved with evaluating the free agents brought in as well and other than Le Kevin Smith (acquired in a trade via the Patriots) all the new defensive players made solid contrbutions. We still lack the talent on the DL that we need but were able to do a pretty damn good job with what we had, Nolans game planning and schemes are to thank. Add to that the constant pressure being put on the defense with the offense going 3 and out so often and not putting points on the board just adds to the great contribution Nolan brings to the Broncos.

McD inherited an offense that was 16th in the NFL in scoring. It turned the ball over 30 times, which tied them for 25th in the NFL. They were also horrible once again in the red zone. I don't care how good you are between the 20's, that's an offense that needs to be changed.

I make no excuses for this year's offense. People can complain all they want about Cutler leaving, injuries, or whatever else, but I won't. I'll expect this team to be much better next season on that side of the ball. It starts with the offensive line, and if McD doesn't work hard at fixing it this offseason, I'll begin to wonder about him myself.

As far as giving Nolan more credit we don't know just how much he deserves because we aren't there when they gameplan. The players have said that McD is involved in all facets of gameplanning. He also brought in a bunch of the players that Nolan is working with on D.

I find it funny that the critics want to hate on McD for trading Cutler, and soon Brandon, but they don't want to give him credit for bringing in Nolan to coach this D. They just want to say that it's all about Nolan. Nolan wouldn't be here if McD didn't bring him in. Sorry guys, you can't have your cake and eat it too. McD has made his share of mistakes. I'm just pointing out the fact that he has done a lot of good things too.

Ziggy
01-18-2010, 05:52 PM
um ok..
my argument is fine..
I used the term marry.. and i beleive he should have better used the skills sets of the players than he did.. it is what good coaches do. i said nothing about him sticking with the WCO or the ZBS, but the skill sets of the the once exhalted line masybe was better suited for something else. something that didnt suck as bad.
BTW - hate to always use the same example but didn't Mike Tomlin come into Pittsburg and keep the same defense that was there under the Cower regime?? yeah that was soo rediculous..

Yes, Tomlin kept a system that was working, had the talent in place, and had a coaching staff that had been there for more than a decade. The Steelers were perennial contenders. Did you see any of that here in Denver? What's ridiculous is your comparison.

nevcraw
01-18-2010, 05:59 PM
McD inherited an offense that was 16th in the NFL in scoring. It turned the ball over 30 times, which tied them for 25th in the NFL. They were also horrible once again in the red zone. I don't care how good you are between the 20's, that's an offense that needs to be changed.

I make no excuses for this year's offense. People can complain all they want about Cutler leaving, injuries, or whatever else, but I won't. I'll expect this team to be much better next season on that side of the ball. It starts with the offensive line, and if McD doesn't work hard at fixing it this offseason, I'll begin to wonder about him myself.

As far as giving Nolan more credit we don't know just how much he deserves because we aren't there when they gameplan. The players have said that McD is involved in all facets of gameplanning. He also brought in a bunch of the players that Nolan is working with on D.

I find it funny that the critics want to hate on McD for trading Cutler, and soon Brandon, but they don't want to give him credit for bringing in Nolan to coach this D. They just want to say that it's all about Nolan. Nolan wouldn't be here if McD didn't bring him in. Sorry guys, you can't have your cake and eat it too. McD has made his share of mistakes. I'm just pointing out the fact that he has done a lot of good things too.

agreed.. & that was my point if you want to love on him for hiring Nolan and the improved Defense, than you also have to be fair about the areas he did not do well. OL, running game, passing game, play calling and player magagment to name a few.. The guy has a lot of work to do before he deserves a love fest..

topscribe
01-18-2010, 06:04 PM
agreed.. & that was my point if you want to love on him for hiring Nolan and the improved Defense, than you also have to be fair about the areas he did not do well. OL, running game, passing game, play calling and player magagment to name a few.. The guy has a lot of work to do before he deserves a love fest..

A coach does not block and tackle. Players have to do that. McDaniels took over
a team glaringly devoid of talent. They shored up some of it, but there are still
holes. McDaniels did just a marvelous job for the time he had when he first
arrived.

The only consistently good player on the offensive line this year goes by the
name of Ryan Clady--since Ryan Harris went on IR, anyway. Because the
offensive line couldn't block is not on McDaniels. It is on the offensive line. If
they can't block, it doesn't make a difference what plays are called: The plays
will not be successful.

-----

nevcraw
01-18-2010, 06:08 PM
you can now give him credit for getting rid of Nolan..

Lonestar
01-18-2010, 06:11 PM
Yeah.. it really hurt us against the the packers in the SB..
next..

I have done this three times now lets see if it will send.

Your comparing perhaps the greatest OLINE this team has seen, backed by the greatest QB, RB this franchise had.

Comparing it to this pathetic OLINE with perhaps ONE player worth a crap that played all year..

Also factor in that at the time WE were the ONLY team to play ZBS, not there are HOW many so that defenses have been designed to defeat it.

There were perhaps TWO HOF players on it with ZIM and NAILS, not to mention Stink and Tony Jones IIRC.

YEP that is a good comparison . It is just easier to admit you hate Josh and all that he stands for, then we can move on knowing your "justifications" and stretches..

next

Lonestar
01-18-2010, 06:27 PM
Good post, but why no mention of the offense that Mcd inherited?

Also feel Nolan deserves more credit than you shown him here. He was involved with evaluating the free agents brought in as well and other than Le Kevin Smith (acquired in a trade via the Patriots) all the new defensive players made solid contrbutions. We still lack the talent on the DL that we need but were able to do a pretty damn good job with what we had, Nolans game planning and schemes are to thank. Add to that the constant pressure being put on the defense with the offense going 3 and out so often and not putting points on the board just adds to the great contribution Nolan brings to the Broncos.


hey guy what did he inherit?

he got a great O between the 20,s that has consistently sucked in the red zone for almost a decade .. OR Jason would not be a HOF candidate.

That is what he inherited. a great O theta could not close it out. Could not consistently run the ball when they had to.

Had a lot of ME and I talent that did not want to be TEAM players. to in particular that felt they were shafted when their paycheck got cut. ( anyone doubt that jay and BM would not have gotten a new contract).

That is what I saw a lousy OLINE for running behind, one that collapsed like a $50 tent in a 25 MPH wind.

Everyone thought that the OLINE was the strong point, but WE all saw how it got exposed this year, doing something as a PRO you should be able to do BLOCK.

I'm sure that dennison as well as everyone thought they would be fine or they would have went after more MEAT in the off season. When Harris went down it was a triple whammy.

So what did he really do wrong? Ask the Professionals on the OLINE to do their job. Something they did in college, HS and pee wee football BLOCK the man in front of them without having to have 4 other guys to help them.


sorry but I do not see the issues with Josh screwing something up. I see it as they were asked to do a job and they failed at the most basic tenement of it.

Medford Bronco
01-18-2010, 06:36 PM
Yeah.. it really hurt us against the the packers in the SB..
next..

apples and oranges.

the talent on that o line is so much better than this o line outside of Clady.

Also Elway, Davis, Rod Smith, Sharpe and McCafrey help as well

much tougher team than the 2009 unit.

different league as well back in 97-98

you could actually be physical with Wrs, now you blow on them its a PI call.

nevcraw
01-18-2010, 06:44 PM
I have done this three times now lets see if it will send.

Your comparing perhaps the greatest OLINE this team has seen, backed by the greatest QB, RB this franchise had.

Comparing it to this pathetic OLINE with perhaps ONE player worth a crap that played all year..

Also factor in that at the time WE were the ONLY team to play ZBS, not there are HOW many so that defenses have been designed to defeat it.

There were perhaps TWO HOF players on it with ZIM and NAILS, not to mention Stink and Tony Jones IIRC.

YEP that is a good comparison . It is just easier to admit you hate Josh and all that he stands for, then we can move on knowing your "justifications" and stretches..

next

kettle meet pot.. LOL..
what you don't like being the only repetitive coach hater on the board?

sorry but i do not fit in to you black amnd white world.. i do not hate the coach, just don't love him either.. think he has a lot prove and todays news just adds to the long list of head scracthers for the new regime..
as far the the above crap.. It's funny how you are now putting qualifiers on previous blanket statement made by you about smaller o lines.. I just gave you an example that proved your statement not to be entirelly true.. don't get pissy with me if you if you can't handle the challenge. you made the statement..

nevcraw
01-18-2010, 06:51 PM
Yes, Tomlin kept a system that was working, had the talent in place, and had a coaching staff that had been there for more than a decade. The Steelers were perennial contenders. Did you see any of that here in Denver? What's ridiculous is your comparison.

the running game to in Denver was to the Broncos as the 3-4 was to pittsburg. Both gave their teams SB wins.
The running game in Denver is the most prolific runnning game in the NFL in the last 20 years..
MCD replaced and changed to offense that did not work and that he did not have the horses for.. and for that he does not deserve credit for that..

Lonestar
01-18-2010, 06:59 PM
why settle for 320? let's go for the gusto and make it 350!

:woot:





were you 320+?


:D


You do not have to have flabby beef up there just enough Fat on them to get them through games for the easier to get at energy that comes from fat once your reserves are depleted in the muscle mass that you are carrying. Give me 320-335 OGs and a 315-320 center that are lean mean fighting machines and I guarantee few NT or DTs are going to get by them consistently. right now we have on the OG spots 303, 290, 308. add 15 to 20 pounds of muscle on these guys especially kuper and he is able to handle most everyone coming his way, what does he lose a speck of speed. something he will not need in a power game.

right now our OT are 325 clady just about right, harris 300, plumbus 300, groin (WTF) 309, batiste (PS) 314. so we are not all that far off except for the 300 guys. frankly I thought I saw Polumbus at 315+ before some where.


We can beef it up without and issues for the most part bringing in bigger players and using most of these guys as back us if need be. he are one OLG and a center away from a pretty fair OLINE for a power game IF Harris comes back 100%.

As for me it was in HS and I was mean at 5-11 195, but had incredible strength in my legs, at age 35 when I worked for Avis in LA we went to the same place that the LA RAMs went to for rehab. one of the trainers told me I had more leg strength than any of the RB's they had at the time. at which time I was carrying about 185. When I was kid I had to buy 501's (at the time that was the only way they came) 4-6 sizes bigger in the waist than I needed so I could get my thighs and calves in them and then the calves were still uber skin tight. had to have help some times pulling them off.
I still have virtually no hair on my shins or calves today because of they were rubbed bare then.

Ziggy
01-18-2010, 07:19 PM
the running game to in Denver was to the Broncos as the 3-4 was to pittsburg. Both gave their teams SB wins.
The running game in Denver is the most prolific runnning game in the NFL in the last 20 years..
MCD replaced and changed to offense that did not work and that he did not have the horses for.. and for that he does not deserve credit for that..

The running game in Denver a decade ago, yes.

nevcraw
01-18-2010, 07:23 PM
having fun getting More MCD love on this thread after Nolan leaving.. I guess we will see how great his defensive acumen is after all..

LordTrychon
01-18-2010, 07:29 PM
8-8 before, 8-8 after... I hear that a lot when supporting the moves McDaniels made...

But the 'before' dealt with a lot more injuries, too. Even one or two of the staunch Shanny detractors I debated with agreed that it wasn't a bad result considering what the team went through.

I'd say it would have been harder for us to get the same record if we were so beat up at the end of the year, but that's a moot point because we didn't win any games later on in the year anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter.

Lonestar
01-19-2010, 04:39 AM
Top your correct you win and lose on the LOS. When your oline is out weighed byas much as 60 pounds your OG and C are going to be beat 95% of the time.

When your NT is out weighed by 35-50 pounds not to mention there maybe two players breifly blocking him at once he does not stand a chance. Those double teaming him cab easily peel off to got to the second level.

I don't understand why NO ONE gets it. I guess my time as an ORG allows me to see it so clear.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.


Yeah.. it really hurt us against the the packers in the SB..
next..


I have done this three times now lets see if it will send.

Your comparing perhaps the greatest OLINE this team has seen, backed by the greatest QB, RB this franchise had.

Comparing it to this pathetic OLINE with perhaps ONE player worth a crap that played all year..

Also factor in that at the time WE were the ONLY team to play ZBS, not there are HOW many so that defenses have been designed to defeat it.

There were perhaps TWO HOF players on it with ZIM and NAILS, not to mention Stink and Tony Jones IIRC.

YEP that is a good comparison . It is just easier to admit you hate Josh and all that he stands for, then we can move on knowing your "justifications" and stretches..

next


kettle meet pot.. LOL..
what you don't like being the only repetitive coach hater on the board?

sorry but i do not fit in to you black amnd white world.. i do not hate the coach, just don't love him either.. think he has a lot prove and todays news just adds to the long list of head scracthers for the new regime..
as far the the above crap.. It's funny how you are now putting qualifiers on previous blanket statement made by you about smaller o lines.. I just gave you an example that proved your statement not to be entirelly true.. don't get pissy with me if you if you can't handle the challenge. you made the statement..

So far I do not remember seeing any post from you concerning Josh other than everything is his fault.

I'm not asking anyone to love him merely give him the benefit of the doubt that mike got for an extra decade.

Not putting qualifiers on just showing you that your comparing apples and oranges. the fatso in the superbowl had a tough time getting on and off the field in more than a slow walk. Gilbert brown IIRC was indeed more that 60 pounds over our entire interior line combined.:D. but as I said before it was a time that almost NO one knew how to defense the cut back ,cut blocking, ZBS styles we were using.

Not so anymore. and if Gilbert was still playing he would cause our OLINE fits even from last year. The easiest way to beat the scheme is for the NT to stay home. and the set of the front seven to stay in their lanes.
No of the reason that we are moving to a power blocking scheme.

Now Until we know for sure what happened with Nolan I'm not going to warm up the tar or have and ducks and chicken plucked.

Not so sure why every one seems to THINK they know why he left.

Time will tell.

I'm sad to see him go and wish him well.

frenchfan
01-19-2010, 07:19 AM
here are my criticisms -

FACT: The coach went 8-8, not an improvement from the previous year.

true...
FACT : A rookie coach achieved the same than a future HOF coach while facing one of the most brutal calendar of the NFL and changes schemes on both sides of the ball... We almost played all the best teams in the league... wow...

So, yeah... McD is such a bust !
May be he'll be the "Ryan Leaf" of the coaches :rolleyes:

I won't say McD is the best coach ever but he is not the worst too... he did a pretty decent job this year, like it or not...
Our team was average and still is... It's true... But we have changed many things and moving into a new direction... That takes time...
The good question is : "are we in the right way"?
Sadly... nobody knows... We'll know that in only 1 or 2 more seasons... That's life... You take decisions and you know later if you were right or wrong...

For a 1st year, I don't complain too much about McD... He could have done some things better, but overall it wasn't bad...

Give time to time ;)