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broncofaninfla
01-14-2010, 02:48 PM
Shanahan signs former Broncos draft pick (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/14/shanahan-signs-former-draft-pick/)

Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on January 14, 2010 1:47 PM ET
The Denver-to-Washington pipeline is open for business.

Let it be known: Center/guard Kory Lichtensteiger was the first signing of the Shanahan era. A fourth-round pick by Shanahan in 2008, the lightweight lineman was cut by Denver, then Minnesota last year.

Former Broncos running back coach Bobby Turner became Shanahan's first official coaching hire (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/14/redskins-make-it-official-with-turner/) earlier Thursday.

Lonestar
01-14-2010, 03:06 PM
So it begins WAS path down the road to destruction.. way to go mike :salute:

nevcraw
01-14-2010, 03:12 PM
yeah bringing in the best RB coach in the NFL is a TOTAL recipe for disaster.

NightTrainLayne
01-14-2010, 03:16 PM
I can't wait to hear all the Washington fans complain about how Shanahan is only bringing in players from Denver.

"What? A 4th-Rounder who's been cut twice since he was drafted?"

underrated29
01-14-2010, 03:31 PM
So it begins WAS path down the road to destruction.. way to go mike :salute:



Shanny needs a QB, a RB and an offensive line to make that team a serious contender. They arleady have everything else, including a good defense (which is not run by blowsdick)


And I think we have seen how well shanny can draft OL, QB and RB. Id venture a guess that they should be on a pretty good path, maybe even a path to redemption.

GEM
01-14-2010, 03:35 PM
Shanny needs a QB, a RB and an offensive line to make that team a serious contender. They arleady have everything else, including a good defense (which is not run by blowsdick)


And I think we have seen how well shanny can draft OL, QB and RB. Id venture a guess that they should be on a pretty good path, maybe even a path to redemption.

Give it 2 seasons for the defense to hit the crapper and he'll have Denver reincarnated. :lol:

Lonestar
01-14-2010, 03:36 PM
Shanny needs a QB, a RB and an offensive line to make that team a serious contender. They arleady have everything else, including a good defense (which is not run by blowsdick)


And I think we have seen how well shanny can draft OL, QB and RB. Id venture a guess that they should be on a pretty good path, maybe even a path to redemption.


perhaps he can indeed draft OL but in that division with great defenses in PHILLY, Gaints and Dallas that could indeed mean 6 loses a year just there.. YOU HAve to remember that the ZBS just does not work great against huge physical, athletic DL's that they have up there. Hey I could be wrong but he also does not have either dennison or Gibbs to teach it either.

Lonestar
01-14-2010, 03:37 PM
Give it 2 seasons for the defense to hit the crapper and he'll have Denver reincarnated. :lol:

I was giving it a minus 3 :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Dreadnought
01-14-2010, 03:59 PM
I can't wait to hear all the Washington fans complain about how Shanahan is only bringing in players from Denver.

"What? A 4th-Rounder who's been cut twice since he was drafted?"

I liked Lichtensteiger - this is a good move. What, I suppose you'd rather trade for a stiff like Hochstein :laugh:

HORSEPOWER 56
01-14-2010, 04:15 PM
I liked Lichtensteiger - this is a good move. What, I suppose you'd rather trade for a stiff like Hochstein :laugh:

What are you talking about? That guy was SO MUCH BETTER than Hamilton. Our pass protection and Running game got a huge boost when he took over at LG!


/sarcasm off/.

underrated29
01-14-2010, 04:16 PM
perhaps he can indeed draft OL but in that division with great defenses in PHILLY, Gaints and Dallas that could indeed mean 6 loses a year just there.. YOU HAve to remember that the ZBS just does not work great against huge physical, athletic DL's that they have up there. Hey I could be wrong but he also does not have either dennison or Gibbs to teach it either.



no doubt, i dont even know if he is moving them to zbs. It wouldnt surprise me, but regardless those are the positions that his team is lacking. And offense, specifically those positions seem to be his strength. I dont think signing a UFA is bringing down the house.

NightTrainLayne
01-14-2010, 04:21 PM
I liked Lichtensteiger - this is a good move. What, I suppose you'd rather trade for a stiff like Hochstein :laugh:

Well the point I was attempting to make was how similar those two moves are to each other.

G_Money
01-14-2010, 04:30 PM
It happens with most coaches. Parcells was famous (infamous?) for it: bringing in his guys and running off anyone who was afraid of competition.

Which is why I expected McDaniels, who is off the Parcells tree (Parcells to Belichick to Josh) to operate the same way.

And so far he has in some ways...but his disdain for people who were already here is really interesting. Parcells wanted to find the guys who would run through a wall for him. I would have thought a guy like Hillis would be first on the Parcells-Approved list, so seeing him in Josh's doghouse makes me question how Josh selects "His Guys."

After we cut Kory even with Wiegmann's struggles I figured he might be like Eslinger - good in college but can't hack it in the pros. Shanahan latching onto him early makes me wonder how much more potential he sees in Kory than that.

And I wonder what center we could add that McDaniels will play, since Wiegmann can't cut it and we don't have a replacement on the roster.

~G

HORSEPOWER 56
01-14-2010, 04:42 PM
It happens with most coaches. Parcells was famous (infamous?) for it: bringing in his guys and running off anyone who was afraid of competition.

Which is why I expected McDaniels, who is off the Parcells tree (Parcells to Belichick to Josh) to operate the same way.

And so far he has in some ways...but his disdain for people who were already here is really interesting. Parcells wanted to find the guys who would run through a wall for him. I would have thought a guy like Hillis would be first on the Parcells-Approved list, so seeing him in Josh's doghouse makes me question how Josh selects "His Guys."

After we cut Kory even with Wiegmann's struggles I figured he might be like Eslinger - good in college but can't hack it in the pros. Shanahan latching onto him early makes me wonder how much more potential he sees in Kory than that.

And I wonder what center we could add that McDaniels will play, since Wiegmann can't cut it and we don't have a replacement on the roster.

~G

Wait, wait, wait. Didn't McDaniels spend 2 draft picks this past year on O-linemen (a G and a C)? What about those guys? They've had a year and are "his guys". Aren't they supposed to be the future? How come we never saw anything even when the O-line was struggling? Do we really need to draft even more this year? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm genuinely curious about this.

Northman
01-14-2010, 04:45 PM
I guess Tatum will be getting a call soon.

underrated29
01-14-2010, 04:50 PM
I guess Tatum will be getting a call soon.


A call.

HAHA I love it.

G_Money
01-14-2010, 04:54 PM
Wait, wait, wait. Didn't McDaniels spend 2 draft picks this past year on O-linemen (a G and a C)? What about those guys? They've had a year and are "his guys". Aren't they supposed to be the future? How come we never saw anything even when the O-line was struggling? Do we really need to draft even more this year? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm genuinely curious about this.

Our ZBS is (was) one of the more complicated in the league. Rookies almost ALWAYS sat for a year before getting real time in it. Even Kuper - who played in a ZBS in college - only got into one game as a rookie. Harris was about the same. Clady played, but he was a first-rounder and physical genius (who should have been a pro bowler as a rookie, and is now a first-team All-Pro in his second year). I wouldn't hold all linemen to that standard.

And then we were asking our line to basically master our fantastically-hard ZBS but only use it on occasion, while perfecting this power-blocking mish-mash that McDaniels wants to move to.

No shame in a rookie not getting on the field with all that going on.

Olsen could still be someone - he's an Iowa guy, and the one thing Iowa is consistent with is having good OL. I was actually surprised not to see him with the struggles of Hamilton and Hochstein, since he's the same size as Kuper basically and was practicing with the first teamers in training camp at times IIRC. But again, Hochstein was one of McDaniels' Guys, and he seems loyal to a fault to guys he picks up. Hopefully that gets better when the guys he picks up suck (or alternately, he could start picking up more amazing guys). Olsen should get much more of a look this coming year and more reps.

Schlueter is just too small to move the beef on the other side of the line, IMO - he's a ZBS guy and now that we're definitely giving up on that as our de facto blocking style we'll need a heftier center.

~G

Ravage!!!
01-14-2010, 05:23 PM
Seems to me that just because a guy comes into camp, he's not guaranteed a spot on the roster.

Seems that a few of the Shanahan bashers are purely HOPING Shanahan fails? Maybe to lessen the blow of this year in Denver? :whoknows:

HORSEPOWER 56
01-14-2010, 05:38 PM
Our ZBS is (was) one of the more complicated in the league. Rookies almost ALWAYS sat for a year before getting real time in it. Even Kuper - who played in a ZBS in college - only got into one game as a rookie. Harris was about the same. Clady played, but he was a first-rounder and physical genius (who should have been a pro bowler as a rookie, and is now a first-team All-Pro in his second year). I wouldn't hold all linemen to that standard.

And then we were asking our line to basically master our fantastically-hard ZBS but only use it on occasion, while perfecting this power-blocking mish-mash that McDaniels wants to move to.

No shame in a rookie not getting on the field with all that going on.

Olsen could still be someone - he's an Iowa guy, and the one thing Iowa is consistent with is having good OL. I was actually surprised not to see him with the struggles of Hamilton and Hochstein, since he's the same size as Kuper basically and was practicing with the first teamers in training camp at times IIRC. But again, Hochstein was one of McDaniels' Guys, and he seems loyal to a fault to guys he picks up. Hopefully that gets better when the guys he picks up suck (or alternately, he could start picking up more amazing guys). Olsen should get much more of a look this coming year and more reps.

Schlueter is just too small to move the beef on the other side of the line, IMO - he's a ZBS guy and now that we're definitely giving up on that as our de facto blocking style we'll need a heftier center.

~G

I don't believe for one second that McD drafted Schlueter because he was a ZBS guy and that we might run a kind of hybrid maybe, sort of, kind of scheme. No, you don't draft a guy late for a scheme that you won't be using in the future. McDaniels has made it clear what his future plans are for the offense. Schlueter was a McDaniels guy. Brought in for his system, his scheme, by his GM and himself. If he's not that guy, he NEVER should've been drafted.

The point is, with the exception of the 2007 Draft (Moss, Crowder, Harris, Thomas) we've almost always picked up an interior O-lineman usually, more than one. We spend more draft picks on interior O-line than on any other position, it seems. C and G aren't exactly "skill" positions. Make the guys you drafted do the damn job. The "power" scheme really doesn't require much skill or thought. Man-blocking is about as easy as it gets - you can teach 5 yr olds to do it effectively.

Want to fix the problem? Take those overpaid scrub G's and C's that have been drafted the last few years, make them eat and bulk up to 300+ lbs and teach them how to get in the way of the guy in front of them. That's man blocking. It's not rocket science.

rationalfan
01-14-2010, 05:58 PM
it's amusing how people hold onto the idea of old draft picks as if they're wasted food, or winning lotto numbers that were lost. get over them. most picks don't pan out. it's like that with each team in the league, not just in denver.

G_Money
01-14-2010, 06:20 PM
I don't believe for one second that McD drafted Schlueter because he was a ZBS guy and that we might run a kind of hybrid maybe, sort of, kind of scheme. No, you don't draft a guy late for a scheme that you won't be using in the future. McDaniels has made it clear what his future plans are for the offense. Schlueter was a McDaniels guy. Brought in for his system, his scheme, by his GM and himself. If he's not that guy, he NEVER should've been drafted.

The point is, with the exception of the 2007 Draft (Moss, Crowder, Harris, Thomas) we've almost always picked up an interior O-lineman usually, more than one. We spend more draft picks on interior O-line than on any other position, it seems. C and G aren't exactly "skill" positions. Make the guys you drafted do the damn job. The "power" scheme really doesn't require much skill or thought. Man-blocking is about as easy as it gets - you can teach 5 yr olds to do it effectively.

Want to fix the problem? Take those overpaid scrub G's and C's that have been drafted the last few years, make them eat and bulk up to 300+ lbs and teach them how to get in the way of the guy in front of them. That's man blocking. It's not rocket science.

:lol: Schleuter was a 7th round draftpick. We're not talking about a guy that greatness was expected from. The fact that the Broncos routinely took late-round OL picks is not a sign of greatness laying around the roster. They're not overpaid, they're minimum-wage. Harris is making $2.75 mil on his 4-year deal as a 3rd rounder, and he's the starting RT. I believe his $800K signing bonus is included in that figure btw (since his salary for this year is only $550k) but either way he's still making less than a mil a season over the life of the deal.

Broncos OL in draft last 7 years:

Foster (1)
Clady (1)
Harris (3)
Lichtensteiger (4)
Olsen (4)
Claxton (5)
Kuper (5)
Sewell (6)
Myers (6)
Eslinger (6)
Schleuter (7)

So - 11 guys in 7 years, 3 of whom are currently starting for us, and only 3 first-day picks.

Players don't slide to the late-second-day because they are known to have vast talent waiting to be tapped. They slide because no one knows if they can even stay on an NFL roster much less start.

If it was as easy as "eat ho-hos and watch this elementary school instructional video" I don't think there would be a problem.

It's not that easy. You draft a guy in the 7th because you're taking a flier on him and don't want to have to negotiate with him as a UDFA. And since McDaniels only had a hundred guys on his board he was probably throwing darts by that time anyway, not making insightful judgment calls on marginal players.

Guys don't work out. That's when you draft more guys, and hopefully guess better.

We need to draft more guys, especially those who fit our scheme better than Hamilton, Wiegmann and yes Schleuter do.

~G

HORSEPOWER 56
01-14-2010, 06:35 PM
And since McDaniels only had a hundred guys on his board he was probably throwing darts by that time anyway, not making insightful judgment calls on marginal players.


I think this is the most likely explanation. Big, fat guards aren't hard to find. never have been, never will be.

If any poster on this board could name 5 starting offensive guard tandems on other NFL teams, besides the Broncos, without looking it up, I'd be extremely surprised.

Guard is just not a high value position. Few Guards are even drafted on the first day unless they're "exceptional". If we have to spend even more draft picks or blow more cap space on FA Guards because we just don't have any to "run the system", then we have fools in our FO. Guard is the EASIEST position to fill on offense. Convert a Tackle! Anyone over 300 lbs will do! :D

G_Money
01-14-2010, 06:44 PM
Big fat guards aren't that hard to find, and that's why new ones get drafted every year - because who wants to pay a guard a ton of money when there's another one around the corner for cheap?

It's like RBs. Unless you're Chris Johnson (or the Steve Hutchinson of guards) your job is not especially safe. There's a whole bunch of decently qualified guys looking to fill limited spots.

Great OTs? Hard to find. Guards? Easier, in theory. Now we just need to see that put into practice.

Centers are a whole different matter to me. Getting a great center can be a pain. Hopefully we get that locked down this year and I don't have to watch any more pathetic attempts at pile-moving on third and short.

~G

nevcraw
01-14-2010, 07:24 PM
Schlueter was cut on Sept. 1st.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-14-2010, 09:05 PM
Schlueter was cut on Sept. 1st.

Well, I guess that explains a lot. I always think it's very telling if a guy that you spent a draft pick on (not an UDFA) doesn't even make the practice squad his first season. That means the guy was so bad in OTAs and TC that he's not even worth the time to let develop for one year on the scout team before you consider him a lost cause and can his ass. That's just sad and it says that your drafting SUCKS.

Medford Bronco
01-14-2010, 09:12 PM
I guess Tatum will be getting a call soon.

Maybe he can sell Shanny a cellphone in the process :lol:

get it a "call" sorry I was trying to be funny it seemed funny when I first thought of it.

did tatum even play in the NFL this year.



btw he already has Portis, as long as he does not break out that belt he will be fine :lol: I love Portis and always will. :salute:

Medford Bronco
01-14-2010, 09:13 PM
Centers are a whole different matter to me. Getting a great center can be a pain. Hopefully we get that locked down this year and I don't have to watch any more pathetic attempts at pile-moving on third and short.

~G


Logan Mankins anyone?

HORSEPOWER 56
01-14-2010, 09:29 PM
Logan Mankins anyone?

If the Patriots even let him leave town he'll be the top ranked Guard FA this offseason. We all know what that means - he'll be hugely overpaid.

Think what we did to get Daniel Graham. Under 5 TDs a year and a good amount of penalites later. Was he really worth it? For being such a "good blocker", doesn't he seem to get penalized a lot?

Mankins will be that at least that expensive and honestly, I don't know if he's even an upgrade over what we have.

Name one Ex-patriot currently on our roster that is an upgrade to the guy he "replaced". That includes the coach.

dogfish
01-14-2010, 10:15 PM
Olsen could still be someone - he's an Iowa guy, and the one thing Iowa is consistent with is having good OL. I was actually surprised not to see him with the struggles of Hamilton and Hochstein, since he's the same size as Kuper basically and was practicing with the first teamers in training camp at times IIRC. But again, Hochstein was one of McDaniels' Guys, and he seems loyal to a fault to guys he picks up. Hopefully that gets better when the guys he picks up suck (or alternately, he could start picking up more amazing guys). Olsen should get much more of a look this coming year and more reps.


~G

kirk ferentz used to play offensive line-- those hawkeye boys are typically very well schooled in the fundamentals, and anybody that started for ferentz is pretty tough. . . but it doesn't surprise me that JMFMCD didn't want to take a chance replacing a vet with a rookie while we were fighting for a playoff spot. . . most coaches wouldn't make that move-- maybe for a stud, blue chip prospect, but not a 4th rounder. . . maybe you try it early in the year, or if you're out of contention-- but during the stretch run generally isn't a good time to get a guy's feet wet and see what you have. . .

and let's be honest-- if mcD HAD thrown the rookie in and he'd done what you'd expect and played like a rookie, the exact same people that are complaining now because we didn't play him, would have complained because we did play him and it didn't work. . .

it's that whole hindsight is 20/20 thing. . .

*shrugs*



Well, I guess that explains a lot. I always think it's very telling if a guy that you spent a draft pick on (not an UDFA) doesn't even make the practice squad his first season. That means the guy was so bad in OTAs and TC that he's not even worth the time to let develop for one year on the scout team before you consider him a lost cause and can his ass. That's just sad and it says that your drafting SUCKS.

our drafting sucks because a lowly-regarded 7th rounder didn't make it? PLEASE tell me you're just kidding! put bill walsh, bill polian and ron wolf together, and half their 7th rounders won't stick. . . if 7th rounders failing is a sign of suckage, then 32 teams in this league suck major ass at drafting. . .

rcsodak
01-14-2010, 10:20 PM
Well, I guess that explains a lot. I always think it's very telling if a guy that you spent a draft pick on (not an UDFA) doesn't even make the practice squad his first season. That means the guy was so bad in OTAs and TC that he's not even worth the time to let develop for one year on the scout team before you consider him a lost cause and can his ass. That's just sad and it says that your drafting SUCKS.

7th rounder.

ohnoooo...the sky is falling!

:coffee:

rcsodak
01-14-2010, 10:23 PM
If the Patriots even let him leave town he'll be the top ranked Guard FA this offseason. We all know what that means - he'll be hugely overpaid.

Think what we did to get Daniel Graham. Under 5 TDs a year and a good amount of penalites later. Was he really worth it? For being such a "good blocker", doesn't he seem to get penalized a lot?

Mankins will be that at least that expensive and honestly, I don't know if he's even an upgrade over what we have.

Name one Ex-patriot currently on our roster that is an upgrade to the guy he "replaced". That includes the coach.

McD!

He had the same record in his 1st year, WITHOUT a HoF QB to lead the way.

....next.... :coffee:

HORSEPOWER 56
01-15-2010, 07:03 AM
McD!

He had the same record in his 1st year, WITHOUT a HoF QB to lead the way.

....next.... :coffee:

So that makes him an upgrade? A newer model, maybe but He's got to do better to be considered in upgrade by most people's standards.

Lonestar
01-15-2010, 04:52 PM
Logan Mankins anyone? a great OG but as it stands a RFA and either will be resigned to the Pats with a reasonable contract for both of them or will get a high tender and I'm not sure he is worth a first rounder choice.

OG's are a normally 3rd to fourth rounder picks lots of them in the draft and there are a lot more OT in college that just are not good enough to play OT in the NFL so that means lots of guys to look at..

IIRC someone said this is a strong year for OG anyway. that position is not as hard to step in and start at as say Center or OLT.

So I will bet that is the way we go along with picking up another FA vet for competition and or backup duty.

almost micky the mope would be better at Pass protection and power blocking than hamilton and casey were.