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EastCoastBronco
01-14-2010, 11:24 AM
Found this over at CHFF and figured it might ease the minds of some of the people fretting over losing Marshall. I figured Clay would like it because it makes a couple of big points about offences becoming too dependent on BIG receivers...

Just something to read until the weekend rolls around...Enjoy.


http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/football/patriots/kerry-byrne/2010/01/13/dump-randy-moss


DUMP RANDY MOSS
Wed, 01/13/2010 - 6:43am
By Kerry Byrne

The Randy Moss experiment has not been successful in producing any championships in New England. (AP)
Remember a few years ago, when fans and pigskin “pundits” and even a certain quarterback, not satisfied by winning titles every year, clamored for a big-name wide receiver? ’Member that?

And remember when everybody said the dynastic Patriots needed to put some elite weapons around Tom Brady because, um, well … apparently Super Bowl victories in 2001, 2003 and 2004 and two last-second championship-winning drives and a pair of Super Bowl MVP awards weren’t enough?

And ’member the Patriots, two years removed from their last championship and one defensive stop away from winning the 2006 AFC title game and returning to the Super Bowl, went out and grabbed Randy Moss and Wes Welker in the offseason? Do you ’member?

How’d that work out for everybody?

You know the answer. Not so hot. Somewhere along the way, the Patriots voluntarily threw away their super-duper-secret recipe for championship success. And since that day, they’ve been tossing everything on the spice rack into the pot, hoping to recreate the magic.

Well, the Emeril Lagasse of the gridiron, the Cold, Hard Football Facts, still has the secret formula of 11 stats and spices.

Here’s what the Patriots need to do: They need to dump Moss. Maybe even dump Welker. He might never be the same anyway. More importantly, they need to dump the debilitating mindset that comes with the misguided faith in wide receivers, dump the desire to pass the ball on every down and get back to the basics of championship-winning football.

That’s not a knee-jerk reaction to New England’s humiliating 33-14 loss to Baltimore in the wild card round of the playoffs Sunday.

Quite the contrary. It’s an acknowledgment of one of the great eternal truths of football history: Flashy receivers are nice little glossy hood ornaments on a football team and nothing more. They are certainly not the engines that power victories and power championships.

Never have been. Never will be … no matter how many cover stories Sports Illustrated publishes to the contrary.

Moss, for example, is one of the great receivers in the history of the game. There are no two sides to the argument. The numbers, the Cold, Hard Football Facts, are overwhelming. He’s among the all-time leaders in every major receiving category — 10th in receptions (926), sixth in yards (14,465) and second in touchdowns (148).

And he’s hardly washed up at 32 years old. Despite what seemed like an unproductive season, Moss led the league in TD receptions this season with 13 (tied with Larry Fitzgerald and Vernon Davis).

In fact, everything he did this year was just about what you get out of an average Randy Moss season:

• In 2009 he caught 83 passes for 1,264 yards and 13 TDs.
• In his career he’s averaged 77 receptions for 1,205 yards and 12 TDs.

Moss’ 15.2 yards per reception this year, meanwhile, was dead on the 15.2 yards he averaged in his record 23-TD season of 2007.

Moss, in other words, had a very good and productive season in 2009 by any standard. He should have made the Pro Bowl.

But great wideouts rarely lead you to anything, not even the greatest among them, like Moss. Last we counted, he’s won zero Super Bowl rings in his 12 record-setting seasons.

He’s not alone.

In fact, we combed the length and breadth of pro football history trying to come up with a receiver who carried his team to championships — we found exactly zero. Maybe Green Bay Hall of Famer Don Hutson — but he last strapped on a leather helmet back in 1945.

Jerry Rice is the modern example everybody cites. He’s a three-time Super Bowl champ and the all-time leader in everything. But he was NOT the reason San Francisco dominated in the 1980s and into the 1990s.

The 49ers had won two Super Bowls before Rice arrived on the scene and already had established themselves as the NFL’s best club without him.

People forget that Rice was drafted in 1985 by the defending Super Bowl champs, and not just any old defending champ — those 1984 49ers were the best team in franchise history. They were an awesome, virtually unstoppable 15-1 juggernaut that dominated a very, very good 14-2 Dolphins team and its Hall of Fame quarterback Dan Marino, 38-16, in Super Bowl XIX.

San Francisco’s leading receivers that season, the greatest in franchise history, were Dwight Clark (52 catches, 880 yards, 6 TDs) and running back Roger Craig (71 catches, 675 yards, 3 TD). Very humble numbers.

So, Rice didn’t make the 49ers winners. The 49ers made Rice a winner. (Safety Ronnie Lott had more to do with San Francisco’s success than the record-setting wide receiver. It was Lott’s acquisition that turned the team’s defense into one of the best in football year after year and instantly lifted the club to its first Super Bowl win in his rookie season.)

The greatest teams, meanwhile, were not great because of great receivers. Not one of them.

The Packers dominated the 1960s, a decade of prolific leaps in offensive production, without a single 1,000-yard receiver.

The Steelers dominated the 1970s with just a single 1,000-yard season out of either member of their Hall of Fame receiving tandem of Lynn Swann and John Stallworth (who produced 1,183 yards in 1979). Swann averaged just 607 yards receiving in his nine-year career.

The 49ers dominated the 1980s but, as noted, were just as dominant before Rice’s arrival as they were afterward.

The Cowboys dominated the 1990s with a Hall of Fame receiver in the so-called “playmaker,” Michael Irvin. But he was hardly the centerpiece of their offense. In fact, Irvin put up pretty humble numbers by the standards of the era: He caught 10 TD passes just once, in Dallas’s 1995 championship season, and combined for 14 TD receptions in their 1992 and 1993 Super Bowl-winning seasons.

And, finally, there are the 21st-century Patriots. As noted here last week, they won three Super Bowls with just a single 1,000-yard receiver (Troy Brown in 2001). They’ve won nothing with the history-making tandem of Welker and Moss.

The three most dominant receivers of the past decade, meanwhile, were Moss, Terrell Owens and Marvin Harrison — each among the all-time leaders in every receiving category.

Yet these incredible, record-setting pass-catchers combined for three Super Bowl appearances and one victory. And, even in that victory (2006 Colts), Harrison was a non-factor. He’s probably the worst big-game receiver in history: Harrison caught just two TD passes in 16 playoff games — both of them in the same 2003 win over the Broncos.

In Indy’s Super Bowl-winning playoff run of 2006, Harrison combined for 15 catches and 193 yards in four postseason games. In other words, Indy’s best receiver barely contributed to the team’s playoff success.

By the way: The last guy to lead the league in receptions and win a championship? Todd Christensen with the 1983 Raiders.

So, while fans, broadcasters and pigskin “pundits” gawk at the athleticism and production of the game’s premier receivers, and while Sports Illustrated just ran a misguided cover story last week proclaiming wide receivers the secrets to success this year, the truth is very, very different.

The truth is this: Glitzy wideouts rarely have anything to do with championship success.

In fact, for some curious reason, great receivers seem to have the opposite effect. Teams seem to grow too dependent on their pass-catchers. And when these pass-catchers suddenly have a bad day or face a great scheme, the whole offensive production falls apart.

Remember the old line about Tom Brady?

Who’s his favorite receiver? The open one.

That was the mindset that made him one of the game’s great quarterbacks and made him deadly in critical moments and big games. It was a mindset that allowed this team to persevere in tough situations that could have caused other teams to crumble. It was a mindset that carried the team to its greatest period of success.

My take? Dump Moss, who has one year left on a hefty deal (reported at three years for $27 million when signed in 2008) and put the money toward harvesting game-breaking defenders in free agency or the draft.

These are the guys the Patriots have been missing in recent years. And these are the guys who, paired with an elite quarterback like Brady, make a team so deadly.

But it’s not just Moss the Patriots will be unloading. They’ll be dumping a mindset that has turned a perennial champion and one of the great big-game teams in the history of football into J-A-T — Just Another Team.

claymore
01-14-2010, 11:31 AM
Hell yeah...

red98
01-14-2010, 12:05 PM
Kerry Byrne shows once again why stats don't tell the whole story.

Plaxico Burress won the NFC championship game against GB 2 yrs ago.

Last years SB MVP? Wide reciever Santonio Holmes. (there are 5 other recievers to be named SB MVP)

A dominant WR is an asset and while NE lost that SB, by 3 in the last minutes, it's crazy to say Moss and Welker were the problem.

Davii
01-14-2010, 12:15 PM
Kerry Byrne shows once again why stats don't tell the whole story.

Plaxico Burress won the NFC championship game against GB 2 yrs ago.

Last years SB MVP? Wide reciever Santonio Holmes. (there are 5 other recievers to be named SB MVP)

A dominant WR is an asset and while NE lost that SB, by 3 in the last minutes, it's crazy to say Moss and Welker were the problem.

He didn't say they were the problem. He said they aren't the solution. Big difference.

red98
01-14-2010, 12:24 PM
He didn't say they were the problem. He said they aren't the solution. Big difference.


Here’s what the Patriots need to do: They need to dump Moss. Maybe even dump Welker. He might never be the same anyway. More importantly, they need to dump the debilitating mindset that comes with the misguided faith in wide receivers, dump the desire to pass the ball on every down and get back to the basics of championship-winning football. He's saying big time WRs don't win you SBs, Holmes and Burress disagree.

The Pat's lack of a power run game is the problem with their O.

NightTrainLayne
01-14-2010, 12:32 PM
The Pat's lack of a power run game is the problem with their O.

That's funny. That's what I took from the article for the most part. Run Game > Fantastic wide-receiver.

Cugel
01-14-2010, 12:41 PM
That article wins the award for "Stupidest Bunch of B.S. Article of the Month!"

Then I look and see that it's a "sports-radio" site and I say: "AH! Moron + talk sports radio!" Now I get it! :coffee:

Reality: Belichek knows a teensy bit MORE about how to assemble a championship team than some talk radio idiot!

HE wanted Moss because they keep changing the NFL rules to favor pass-catchers and you need an elite WR to stretch the field and command double-teams if nothing else. Moss does that. He contributes whether he catches a bunch of passes or not.

The IDIOT doesn't mention that the Cardinals (with NO running game and a shaky defense) nearly won the SB last year because they had a Hall of Fame QB in Warner + a potential Hall of Fame WR who's the best in the NFL in Larry Fitzgerald + a pretty great #2 WR in Anquan Boldin. And the Steelers who DID win won because of two guys named Ben Roethlisberger and Santonio Holmes.

That should be enough to totally refute this garbage article.

Any Broncos fan taking comfort from the fact that losing Brandon Marshall "doesn't really matter" is as big an idiot as that talk-radio fathead! :coffee:

Poet
01-14-2010, 12:44 PM
A great player is usually an asset to a team. I don't think Moss was ever bad for the Patriots' locker room, but I don't think he was a leader or anything like that.

If Marshall wants to actually be a teammate then he's an asset. The problem is that he's proven to be a cancer and isn't a team player.

To be fair to the Patriot example, in their SB years their defense was amongst the best in the league. When Moss arrived they were nothing but scheme and their offense forced other teams into obvious passing situations.

It's not 100% accurate, but it does have merit.

I still think that Moss is the best WR in the game, I really do. Guys like Fitzgerald and Andre/Calvin Johnson and Brandon Marshall are great players, but I don't think any of them are capable of catching 23 touchdowns. Yes, they are all more versatile than Moss, but Moss is so good at what he does to the point that it's overkill.

That being said, I would probably take Fitzgerald or Andre Johnson over Moss because I don't have to worry about their character, Moss' is always a concern, reap what you sow and all that.

Gaffney is a decent WR, Royal is a good WR, if you replaced Marshall with an above average number one WR then you're ok.

And you're out a cancer.

red98
01-14-2010, 12:45 PM
That's funny. That's what I took from the article for the most part. Run Game > Fantastic wide-receiver.

He does infer that the Pats focus too much on the passing game because of their fine WRs.

But he also says to dump those fine WRs, which is stupid.

Ravage!!!
01-14-2010, 12:53 PM
The only thing I have against that argument, is the time of the NFL. The league is built around passing now. In the 60's it wasn't.. in the 70's it wasn't, and in the 80's it wasn't.

Now the NFL has it where defensive backs are at SUCH a disadvantage, and you can't even BREATH on the QB. So the NFL continues to make the rules so that passing is where the game is. Its a passing game now. Look at the top 4 teams in the NFL..... Indy, SD, Minnesota, and New Orleans. Teams that have elite QBs, and down-the-field passing attacks.

Considering the rules around DBs and protecting the QB.. .WRs value is at a prime right now.

silkamilkamonico
01-14-2010, 12:53 PM
Kerry Byrne shows once again why stats don't tell the whole story.

Plaxico Burress won the NFC championship game against GB 2 yrs ago.

Last years SB MVP? Wide reciever Santonio Holmes. (there are 5 other recievers to be named SB MVP)

A dominant WR is an asset and while NE lost that SB, by 3 in the last minutes, it's crazy to say Moss and Welker were the problem.

I'd hardly call Santonio Holmes "dominant".

Remember SuperBowl MVP Deion Branch? Neither do I.

One common theme all these WR's had was a franchise QB, who in turn have made marginal WR's "dominant".

Poet
01-14-2010, 12:59 PM
The only thing I have against that argument, is the time of the NFL. The league is built around passing now. In the 60's it wasn't.. in the 70's it wasn't, and in the 80's it wasn't.

Now the NFL has it where defensive backs are at SUCH a disadvantage, and you can't even BREATH on the QB. So the NFL continues to make the rules so that passing is where the game is. Its a passing game now. Look at the top 4 teams in the NFL..... Indy, SD, Minnesota, and New Orleans. Teams that have elite QBs, and down-the-field passing attacks.

Considering the rules around DBs and protecting the QB.. .WRs value is at a prime right now.

The Colts are deep on threats, the Chargers are deep on threats, the Vikings are deep on threats and the Saints are probably the deepest team in regards to passing threats.

You need good receiving threats, not necessarily great receiving threats.

Cugel
01-14-2010, 12:59 PM
Gaffney is a decent WR, Royal is a good WR, if you replaced Marshall with an above average number one WR then you're ok.

And you're out a cancer.

That's exactly what idiot coaches who wind up losing their jobs do -- get rid of the "cancer" and then they wonder why their stupid teams get WHIPPED in the playoffs by teams with more talented players.

Because Anquan Boldin threatened to hold out and was generally sulking this season, idiots are calling him a "cancer." Now Brandon Marshall wants to be paid like the #5 WR in the NFL that he is, and he's a "cancer." :coffee:

If a coach criticizes a player, somehow it's never the coaches' fault. But, you'll notice that the actually GOOD coaches who WIN championships manage to get their players to play -- even the egotistical ones like Randy Moss.

Moss is almost certainly the MOST self-centered egotist in the entire NFL. There used to be a film clip on Youtube of him running over a meter maid because she DARED to write him a parking ticket. She was blocking the car of the "great one" so he just drover over her!

You had to see that video to believe it. The pure arrogant anger and contempt from Moss towards this "nobody" for getting in his way and daring to inconvenience him was written on his face.

It was the most blatant display of pure arrogant self-entitlement I've ever seen. But, the Patriots went 18-0 to get to the SB with Moss and Belichek managed to keep from having a food fight with him these past couple of years. And it sure as hell ISN'T because Moss became a "team player." That word isn't in his vocabulary any more than it is in the vocabulary of Ocho Cinco, T.O. or most other top WRs of the past 10 years. Guys like Rod Smith, Wes Welker or Marvin Harrison are rarities in the NFL these days.

Good coaches manage to get value out of these selfish players. Bad ones pick fights with them and have to ship them out.

There seems to be some kind of brain defect among fans that when a player does anything controversial that demonstrates immaturity (like Marshall pouting in the pre-season) they immediately say: "he's not a team player -- get rid of him!" And then they wonder why their teams don't win because other teams have more talent. :coffee:

claymore
01-14-2010, 01:04 PM
I just think that if you throw the ball to one guy 22 times somethings wrong with the offense, the QB, The OC or all three.

Dirk
01-14-2010, 01:05 PM
I took 2 things from that article.

1. Good Defense
2. Balanced Offense

Ravage!!!
01-14-2010, 01:06 PM
The Colts are deep on threats, the Chargers are deep on threats, the Vikings are deep on threats and the Saints are probably the deepest team in regards to passing threats.

You need good receiving threats, not necessarily great receiving threats.

Take out Fitz from the Cards, take out Wayne from the Colts, take out Jackson from the Chargers, take out Rice from the Vikings, take out Colston from the Saints... and you don't have the same passing attack at all with those teams.

I mean, do you think your passing attack in Cinci was nearly as threatening this season without Housh?

Poet
01-14-2010, 01:15 PM
That's exactly what idiot coaches who wind up losing their jobs do -- get rid of the "cancer" and then they wonder why their stupid teams get WHIPPED in the playoffs by teams with more talented players.

I would sure love to see some great examples of this.


Because Anquan Boldin threatened to hold out and was generally sulking this season, idiots are calling him a "cancer." Now Brandon Marshall wants to be paid like the #5 WR in the NFL that he is, and he's a "cancer." :coffee:

Boldin was the guy who ran away from his teammates when they won the NFCCG to get into the locker room. He was the one pouting. Ironically the Cardinals sure looked like they needed him against GB, huh? Because they have an elite WR who IS about the team (shocking, no?) and Breaston who looks like he could be a very strong long term number two wideout.

Marshall is a cancer because he hurts his team. He gets into legal issues and gets suspended or quits on his team twice in one season. I mean, nothing screams "YOU SHOULD PAY ME" like batting balls down on the practice field or refusing to play on a non-injured 'injured' hamstring.


If a coach criticizes a player, somehow it's never the coaches' fault. But, you'll notice that the actually GOOD coaches who WIN championships manage to get their players to play -- even the egotistical ones like Randy Moss.

Maybe players who don't like criticism should opt to play for their team?

What team was won a Super Bowl with a primmadonna WR in recent years? It sure hasn't been a team with Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Chad Johnson, Steve Smith, etc etc etc, so no, your example or argument is void of worth and reason.


Moss is almost certainly the MOST self-centered egotist in the entire NFL. There used to be a film clip on Youtube of him running over a meter maid because she DARED to write him a parking ticket. She was blocking the car of the "great one" so he just drover over her!

And that man has so many SB rings that when he moves his hand all you hear is Bling Bling....oh wait zero...damn.


You had to see that video to believe it. The pure arrogant anger and contempt from Moss towards this "nobody" for getting in his way and daring to inconvenience him was written on his face.

Where da rings at?


It was the most blatant display of pure arrogant self-entitlement I've ever seen. But, the Patriots went 18-0 to get to the SB with Moss and Belichek managed to keep from having a food fight with him these past couple of years. And it sure as hell ISN'T because Moss became a "team player." That word isn't in his vocabulary any more than it is in the vocabulary of Ocho Cinco, T.O. or most other top WRs of the past 10 years. Guys like Rod Smith, Wes Welker or Marvin Harrison are rarities in the NFL these days.

Rod Smith hit a woman, Wes Welker is one of the biggest trash talkers in the NFL and Marvin Harrison probably shot somebody. Please have a little bit of knowledge before you spew this crapola. Oh, and I have mad love for Rod Smith because he learned from his mistake. Everyone gets one screw up. Far as I can tell he's a great guy, but uhhh..as for the rest of those WR's (including my CJ), where da rings at?


Good coaches manage to get value out of these selfish players. Bad ones pick fights with them and have to ship them out.

There seems to be some kind of brain defect among fans that when a player does anything controversial that demonstrates immaturity (like Marshall pouting in the pre-season) they immediately say: "he's not a team player -- get rid of him!" And then they wonder why their teams don't win because other teams have more talent. :coffee:


But, but but, where...where...WHERE DA RINGS AT!??!?! SHOW ME THA RINGS HOMIE!

Teams like the Steelers and Giants won with GOOD WR's like Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Plaxico Burress, etc etc etc.

Here's one for ya, bra, what'd the Cowboys do with TO, and what have they done without him?

Your argument holds no water, zero.

Poet
01-14-2010, 01:18 PM
Take out Fitz from the Cards, take out Wayne from the Colts, take out Jackson from the Chargers, take out Rice from the Vikings, take out Colston from the Saints... and you don't have the same passing attack at all with those teams.

I mean, do you think your passing attack in Cinci was nearly as threatening this season without Housh?

Yeah, but out of all of those guys two WRs are great, and none of those guys are cancers.

No, we sorely missed T.J., but he was a possession WR who could do SOME deeper route running and what not. He also wasn't tearing the locker room apart and was voted captain by his teammates.

You need good receiving threats, my own words, and there was an 's' on the end of the word 'threat' for a reason.

Ravage!!!
01-14-2010, 01:33 PM
Marshall is absolutely no more of a 'locker room cancer' than Ocho is... and I love Ocho.

Poet
01-14-2010, 01:40 PM
Marshall is absolutely no more of a 'locker room cancer' than Ocho is... and I love Ocho.

I liked Ocho again after Henry passed because then I started to believe that it wasn't just lip service.

He used to be my favorite player of all time, bar none until he demanded a trade. Well, I take that back, I agreed with a lot of what he said or implied about Cincinnati ownership. What I hated was the fact that he did it loudly and publicly campaigned for the trade.

However, his retarded ass (and I really do think that he's not playing with a full deck) at least showed up to camp and tried when he arrived. I didn't see film of him batting the ball down, and Ocho will bust his ass to get on the field. That same year he was playing on a bad ankle.

He never got himself suspended and most of his 'controversy' came from him celebrating.

Ocho, like Rod Smith, slapped a woman. Like, Rod Smith, he managed to learn from his mistakes.

Marshall hasn't learned from his mistakes on any level. He kept on getting into brushes with the law over domestic abuse and eventually got suspended.

To be fair, Ocho has been suspended, but that came down from Marvin Lewis (one of the few things I'll give that hack of a coach credit for).

Marshall is a cancer, Ocho is a fool.

Ravage!!!
01-14-2010, 01:51 PM
I liked Ocho again after Henry passed because then I started to believe that it wasn't just lip service.

He used to be my favorite player of all time, bar none until he demanded a trade. Well, I take that back, I agreed with a lot of what he said or implied about Cincinnati ownership. What I hated was the fact that he did it loudly and publicly campaigned for the trade.

However, his retarded ass (and I really do think that he's not playing with a full deck) at least showed up to camp and tried when he arrived. I didn't see film of him batting the ball down, and Ocho will bust his ass to get on the field. That same year he was playing on a bad ankle.

He never got himself suspended and most of his 'controversy' came from him celebrating.

Ocho, like Rod Smith, slapped a woman. Like, Rod Smith, he managed to learn from his mistakes.

Marshall hasn't learned from his mistakes on any level. He kept on getting into brushes with the law over domestic abuse and eventually got suspended.

To be fair, Ocho has been suspended, but that came down from Marvin Lewis (one of the few things I'll give that hack of a coach credit for).

Marshall is a cancer, Ocho is a fool.

So Ocho slapping woman and getting suspended from the coach is ok, because you felt he learned from it... after being in the league 9 years.

But Marshall's past mistakes make him a cancer.

Marshall isn't a locker room cancer any more than Ocho was for supposedly punching a coach. Marshall was batting balls, not coaches.

Like I said.. I like ocho. I don 't think he's as good as he thinks he is, but thats ok too. I don't mind that kind of personality at all (depending on how they express it, I guess). You don't like Marshall, thus he's a cancer in your eyes... but you like Ocho, so he's not. YOu compare HIS indiscretions with Rod Smith, because that "softens" the accusations.

I respect you King, but I think you are taking a selective look and doing what most people do.... Justifying their poison.

Poet
01-14-2010, 02:01 PM
So Ocho slapping woman and getting suspended from the coach is ok, because you felt he learned from it... after being in the league 9 years.

Ocho did it in college, and I don't anyone remembered him getting suspended. I doubt anyone really remembers that he did hit a woman. I brought it up to be fair and to make my point. Ocho and others have made a mistake once and rectified it. He did it with the domestic abuse and with his contract 'woes'.

Marshall failed on both those counts.


But Marshall's past mistakes make him a cancer.

Marshall's ongoing mistakes make him a cancer.


Marshall isn't a locker room cancer any more than Ocho was for supposedly punching a coach. Marshall was batting balls, not coaches.

The difference is that when those allegations came out everyone in the Bengal's lockeroom said it didn't happen and it came from a guy who got cut by Cincinnati. No player is going to punch a coach and be able to stay on that team. There's no way.


Like I said.. I like ocho. I don 't think he's as good as he thinks he is, but thats ok too. I don't mind that kind of personality at all (depending on how they express it, I guess). You don't like Marshall, thus he's a cancer in your eyes... but you like Ocho, so he's not. YOu compare HIS indiscretions with Rod Smith, because that "softens" the accusations.

I don't think anyone is as good as Ocho thinks he is, and that includes Jerry Rice. I wanted Ocho to be traded, they couldn't because if they did his cap hit would have cost us roughly 12 million bucks that year, it would have been hard to actually sign anyone we drafted.

I compare his actions to Rod Smith because it's an apt comparison. Please, go look at my posts concerning my team and my players, I'm not a homer, I'm very blunt and honest.


I respect you King, but I think you are taking a selective look and doing what most people do.... Justifying their poison.

Ocho isn't my poison. Trust me, I still think he's a great WR, but I'd trade him and some picks for several other WRs, but Marshall isn't one of them and he's the superior WR by a good chunk right now.

Lonestar
01-14-2010, 02:53 PM
I just think that if you throw the ball to one guy 22 times somethings wrong with the offense, the QB, The OC or all three.

actually he was thrown to many more times than 22 he just caught that many.

but for the most part you go to the guy that has the hot hand and that day he did they were unable to defense him.. if they were doing that every game then you have one of two things King Kong as a WR :salute: or a problem with the play calling.:mad:

Lonestar
01-14-2010, 03:01 PM
Ocho did it in college, and I don't anyone remembered him getting suspended. I doubt anyone really remembers that he did hit a woman. I brought it up to be fair and to make my point. Ocho and others have made a mistake once and rectified it. He did it with the domestic abuse and with his contract 'woes'.

Marshall failed on both those counts.



Marshall's ongoing mistakes make him a cancer.



The difference is that when those allegations came out everyone in the Bengal's lockeroom said it didn't happen and it came from a guy who got cut by Cincinnati. No player is going to punch a coach and be able to stay on that team. There's no way.



I don't think anyone is as good as Ocho thinks he is, and that includes Jerry Rice. I wanted Ocho to be traded, they couldn't because if they did his cap hit would have cost us roughly 12 million bucks that year, it would have been hard to actually sign anyone we drafted.

I compare his actions to Rod Smith because it's an apt comparison. Please, go look at my posts concerning my team and my players, I'm not a homer, I'm very blunt and honest.



Ocho isn't my poison. Trust me, I still think he's a great WR, but I'd trade him and some picks for several other WRs, but Marshall isn't one of them and he's the superior WR by a good chunk right now.


great post again but I wanted to add that barring Stokleys quick thinking in the game last year that stopped the moron from the glove incident that may have cost us big time penalty .

marshall is an immature twit a ME player.. only concerned with his ego to worry about the team.

Lonestar
01-14-2010, 03:05 PM
I posted this in other treads but it needs to be brought up here..

after the cowgirls got rid of TO last year everyone was saying woe is me we just got rid of the best WR in the league. our passing game is going to suffer.

yet they (Romo) just had a great season by spreading the ball around to like 14 different players and not missing TO one bit. they very well could win the SB without the best WR in football this year. amazing when egos do not get in the way of team players..

HORSEPOWER 56
01-14-2010, 03:05 PM
Funny that they blame Randy Moss and Wes Welker and WRs for the Patriots inability to beat Baltimore.

Maybe this guy should stop and think just a little before he writes articles.

2 years ago, this offense went undefeated in the regular season. The Patriots didn't win the Superbowl that year because Rodney Harrison didn't just stick his hand between the WR's arm and pretty much anything to keep him from catching the ball against his helmet. That was the play of the game. Thaty ball hits the turf, the Pats win.

Funny how this article doesn't address the defensive side of the ball for NE, either. Their defense is nothing like it was during the superbowl years, nothing. How many times did new "stats" get put up on the Patriots defense this year? How many times did you hear "well this is the first time that ____ has ever happened to a Bill Bellichick coached defense"? I heard it in 3 games at least. It's okay though, trade me Randy Moss and I'll be happy to give them Jabar Gaffney's average ass right back straight up! That should definitely fix NE's offensive problems.

This guy is another freaking moron who shouldn't be paid for a sports opinion. :coffee:

claymore
01-14-2010, 03:12 PM
actually he was thrown to many more times than 22 he just caught that many.

but for the most part you go to the guy that has the hot hand and that day he did they were unable to defense him.. if they were doing that every game then you have one of two things King Kong as a WR :salute: or a problem with the play calling.:mad:

It was a little more than a hot hand. Orton didnt even look anywhere else. Same happened in the KC game.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-14-2010, 03:12 PM
I posted this in other treads but it needs to be brought up here..

after the cowgirls got rid of TO last year everyone was saying woe is me we just got rid of the best WR in the league. our passing game is going to suffer.

yet they (Romo) just had a great season by spreading the ball around to like 14 different players and not missing TO one bit. they very well could win the SB without the best WR in football this year. amazing when egos do not get in the way of team players..

No, Romo had a good year because some no-name WR named Miles Austin came out of nowhere and became Tony's #1. Roy Williams was poor and didn't live up to his price tag and even 'ol reliable Jason Witten was more "decoy" than "slam dunk" this year.

The Cowgirls also finally realized that their RB stable is IMMENSELY deep and talented and finally started running the damned ball so Romo didn't have to throw it 50+ times a game. That's why they finally won some games in December. It's not like since TO left that the Cowboys "survived" without that "cancer". They were just extremely deep to begin with.

Lonestar
01-14-2010, 03:43 PM
No, Romo had a good year because some no-name WR named Miles Austin came out of nowhere and became Tony's #1. Roy Williams was poor and didn't live up to his price tag and even 'ol reliable Jason Witten was more "decoy" than "slam dunk" this year.

The Cowgirls also finally realized that their RB stable is IMMENSELY deep and talented and finally started running the damned ball so Romo didn't have to throw it 50+ times a game. That's why they finally won some games in December. It's not like since TO left that the Cowboys "survived" without that "cancer". They were just extremely deep to begin with.

That is not what the cowgirls network is saying about TO leaving.. and since they are in the know about they goings on in the cowgirl Organization, they also report on it daily (unfortunate that I have to listen to it here in ELP) I'll believe what they said rather than YOUR thoughts on it.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-14-2010, 04:29 PM
That is not what the cowgirls network is saying about TO leaving.. and since they are in the know about they goings on in the cowgirl Organization, they also report on it daily (unfortunate that I have to listen to it here in ELP) I'll believe what they said rather than YOUR thoughts on it.

Yep, and just like Denverbroncos.com, several posters on this board, and every other propaganda machine out there, a former player, especially a popular one, is the devil incarnate. Everyone villainizes big-name, big-time players when they leave and writes stories about how the team is "better off" without them. Usually, it's just spiteful hate. Did you know that there are even people in Philly that talked bad of Brian Dawkins when he left? He "lost a step", and is "over the hill", and the backups are "better". What the hell, ever.

It's amazing how many people loved Cutler, now all they do is talk shit about him. Shanny - 2 superbowls, winning percentage in the 70s - but he sucks now that he's a Redskin and in two years they'll be even worse (as some have said this very day).

The Dennison bashing has already started as I'm sure the Bobby Turner bashing will soon, too. There's no villain like the one closest to you, huh?!

TO didn't do anything for the Cowboys except help them win. He didn't fumble the extra point snap vs Seattle. He didn't go to Cancun with his Hollywood "trophy girlfriend" the week before an important playoff game and then stink it up in the game.

He wasn't a cancer to the Cowboys anymore than Anquan Boldin is to the Cardinals. They are better with him, but they can still win without him.

Cugel
01-14-2010, 04:56 PM
I would sure love to see some great examples of this.

blah, blah, blah. Your argument holds no water, zero.

A more incoherent mismash of gibberish I haven't seen in a while. :coffee:

Rod Smith was terrible because he "hit a woman?" He was a team leader for more than 10 years!

Wes Welker is a "trash talker" -- Say WHAT? And why would that be remotely relevant? That shows a "lack of character" does it? The champion trash-talker of all-time was Shannon Sharpe and he was the 3rd greatest player (behind Elway and T.D.) in Denver History and a sure Hall of Famer

And Marvin Harrison "probably shot somebody" -- except that he was never arrested tried or convicted for that and he's never been disciplined by the NFL at all. There's no proof at all that he ever committed a crime and police are NOT pressing any charges -- and all this happened AFTER his NFL career anyway -- so what difference does it make? Was he a "locker room cancer" or a model leader during his time in Indy?

The fact that you point to such irrelevancies as "trash-talking" -- as if that was a reason to get rid of somebody just proves that you are another one of those "fire the bum!" folks who seem to infest the fan-base of all sports teams these days. You'd have to ban about 1/3 of the league these days, because LOTS of them do something you don't approve of.

I pointed out all those guys because they are models of team leadership -- guys who do their jobs and you don't see them being disciplined like Marshall was for kicking a ball.

As for Marshall -- he's immature. That's why he sulked when the Broncos screwed him by refusing to give him a new contract -- at the same time admitting that they were taking advantage of the expiration of the CBA to avoid having to pay Marshall and Dumervil.

If there were a CBA both those guys would be UN-Restricted FAs, but since it's expired, they become RESTRICTED FAs and any team that signs them must fork over a 1st and a 3rd round draft pick to the Broncos. That may cost Marshall upwards of $10 million.

Normally, Denver would have signed BOTH players before the season or trade them -- because they'd be sure to lose them for nothing if they didn't. But, they could afford to wait and see because of the CBA expiration.

Marshall had the risk of injury all season long -- which would cost him tens of millions of dollars. I'd be pissed if I were in that situation too. But, that doesn't excuse his going on a pout-fest during practice.

He's still immature. Well, so what? You get that with most of the WRs in the league.

Good coaches get the most out of their players -- and bad ones pick fights with them. I stand by my statement.

How many rings does Randy Moss have? What conceivable point does that make? There's 22 guys out on that field. The Patriots didn't lose the SB because of Randy Moss any more than the Eagles lost because of T.O. :coffee:

Today you need an elite QB and WR to compete for a championship as Pittsburgh and Arizona both proved last year. If the Steelers didn't have Santonio Holmes they would have lost -- despite having a superior defense, running game and team basically.

Ravage!!!
01-14-2010, 05:17 PM
THe greatest LEADER in the NFL.... is the very one that a lot of people, incorrectly, accuse of "getting away with murder"..... Ray Lewis.

That guy is the spiritual leader, emotional leader, and personal leader of everyone he knows. That guy can get a team to run through a brick wall, and his teammates would do it for HIM.

Poet
01-14-2010, 05:31 PM
Cugel, you said that great coaches win championships with arrogant players like Moss.

So, I'm still wondering, where da rings at?

Wes Welker runs his mouth more than any player on the football field. I've seen a lot of clips of him just running his mouth to the opposition. Remember when Buffalo gave him a cheap shot a year or two back and he was knocked out of the game? It was during the undefeated year when they won like 56 to 13 or something like that, there was a reason why Welker got that cheap shot, and it wasn't because he was a bigger threat to the Bills defense than Randy Moss.

Brandon's a victim because he isn't being paid big money but it's the best thing ever to sign him because guys like him win championships all the damn time....whoops.

You keep missing the point, and it's pretty sad.

You claimed that great or good coaches win championships with guys like Marshall, or Moss, or whomever. I made you a nice long list of stud wideouts who are arrogant that haven't won anything. And several of those guys are better WRs than Marshall is now...Do you get it now?

You basically said "We need to keep Marshall no matter what so we can win."

Win what?

Out of all the elite WRs I can think of about five that I would want on my team. Andre and Calvin Johnson, Fitzgerald and guys like that would be welcome on my team any day.

Guys like Brandon Marshall...well, to be blunt Ocho was a better WR when he went apeshit and I could have lived without him.

I hope that McDaniels builds you guys an offense like Pittsburgh has just so I can laugh at so many of the Marshall supporters.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-14-2010, 05:43 PM
I hope that McDaniels builds you guys an offense like Pittsburgh has just so I can laugh at so many of the Marshall supporters.

So, you're hoping McDaniels brings in a really good QB? Me too!

Poet
01-14-2010, 05:46 PM
So, you're hoping McDaniels brings in a really good QB? Me too!

Ironically, Kyle Orton would probably do fine on Pittsburgh's offense. He's no Big Ben, but he's not bad at all.

But I was referring to a number one WR who was clutch and a good red zone threat, a number two with playmaking ability, multiple tight ends who can catch and block, a running game that is solid, a strong third WR and a few trick plays that can bust a game wide open.

Ironically (again), that's the type of offense that New England has had (mostly).

rationalfan
01-14-2010, 05:50 PM
Kerry Byrne shows once again why stats don't tell the whole story.

Plaxico Burress won the NFC championship game against GB 2 yrs ago.

Last years SB MVP? Wide reciever Santonio Holmes. (there are 5 other recievers to be named SB MVP)

A dominant WR is an asset and while NE lost that SB, by 3 in the last minutes, it's crazy to say Moss and Welker were the problem.

yes, because the giants' dominant pass rush had nothing to do with winning that superbowl. plus, keep in mind that burress wasn't the receiver that made the play of the game. it was david tyree, who's far from a star.

and in regards to last year's game, the receivers for both teams did well. but it's hard for me to suggest holmes or ward won the game. roethlisberger's arm did. the QB and the D are the common factor in pittsburgh's last two SB wins.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-14-2010, 05:51 PM
Ironically, Kyle Orton would probably do fine on Pittsburgh's offense. He's no Big Ben, but he's not bad at all.

But I was referring to a number one WR who was clutch and a good red zone threat, a number two with playmaking ability, multiple tight ends who can catch and block, a running game that is solid, a strong third WR and a few trick plays that can bust a game wide open.

Ironically (again), that's the type of offense that New England has had (mostly).

You've got to be kidding. Love ya King, but it's obvious that you don't watch many Denver games. Roethlisberger is so good because he makes time for his WRs and helps out his O-line by scrambling. Orton is LESS MOBILE than Dan Marino or Drew Bledsoe and doesn't have the arm. Sad really. A pocket passer without much accuracy that doesn't know how to step up in the pocket.

The only time Orton is successful is if he has a perfectly clean pocket to throw from, can plant his feet, and his WRs are relatively stationary and not more than 10 yds downfield.

Buff
01-14-2010, 05:52 PM
Ironically, Kyle Orton would probably do fine on Pittsburgh's offense. He's no Big Ben, but he's not bad at all.

Are you kidding me? How many times have we seen Big Ben make something out of nothing by scrambling for his life? I'm pretty sure they led the league in sacks given up two years ago, and their O-line hasn't really improved.

K.O. would have done well with Pitt's offense when Ben was a rookie and they ran the ball 40 times a game no matter what. Nowadays he'd get killed with his complete lack of ability to make something happen when the pocket breaks down.

Ravage!!!
01-14-2010, 05:53 PM
yes, because the giants' dominant pass rush had nothing to do with winning that superbowl. plus, keep in mind that burress wasn't the receiver that made the play of the game. it was david tyree, who's far from a star.

and in regards to last year's game, the receivers for both teams did well. but it's hard for me to suggest holmes or ward won the game. roethlisberger's arm did. the QB and the D are the common factor in pittsburgh's last two SB wins.

But it was Moss that caught the TD pass to put the Patriots ahead in the last minutes of the game, and it was Burress that caught the winning TD pas for the Giants.

Just as Roth made a good pass, Holmes made a better catch.

Poet
01-14-2010, 05:55 PM
Are you kidding me? How many times have we seen Big Ben make something out of nothing by scrambling for his life? I'm pretty sure they led the league in sacks given up two years ago, and their O-line hasn't really improved.

K.O. would have done well with Pitt's offense when Ben was a rookie and they ran the ball 40 times a game no matter what. Nowadays he'd get killed with his complete lack of ability to make something happen when the pocket breaks down.

And how many times did you see Big Ben get sacked because he held onto the ball too long? That offensive line is not as bad as they were made out to be and now people realize how much of it falls on Big Ben.

Orton would be fine. Would he do as well as Big Ben? No, but he'd be fine. That's another rant for another day/thread.

And Horse, I see more Denver games than you think. A perk of being a fat guy who eats about 20 bucks in food every Sunday at the same bar is that the bartenders and waiters (depending on where I sit, typically at the bar) put up the games you want to see. Also, and strangely enough, there have been times when Bears fans requested that the Broncos game be put up on one of the larger T.V.s so they could see how Orton was doing.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-14-2010, 06:00 PM
And how many times did you see Big Ben get sacked because he held onto the ball too long? That offensive line is not as bad as they were made out to be and now people realize how much of it falls on Big Ben.

Orton would be fine. Would he do as well as Big Ben? No, but he'd be fine. That's another rant for another day/thread.

And Horse, I see more Denver games than you think. A perk of being a fat guy who eats about 20 bucks in food every Sunday at the same bar is that the bartenders and waiters (depending on where I sit, typically at the bar) put up the games you want to see. Also, and strangely enough, there have been times when Bears fans requested that the Broncos game be put up on one of the larger T.V.s so they could see how Orton was doing.

Just a parting thought, King - Carson Palmer (who's never been accused of being a "scrambler") is more mobile than Orton, by far.

Ravage!!!
01-14-2010, 06:01 PM
Ironically, Kyle Orton would probably do fine on Pittsburgh's offense. He's no Big Ben, but he's not bad at all.

But I was referring to a number one WR who was clutch and a good red zone threat, a number two with playmaking ability, multiple tight ends who can catch and block, a running game that is solid, a strong third WR and a few trick plays that can bust a game wide open.

Ironically (again), that's the type of offense that New England has had (mostly).

WOw.. King... you've gone off the deep end. Ben is a top QB in the league that makes plays with his feet as he does with his finding open receivers and making plays on the move. He spontaniously finds the open receiver while shrugging off defenders that have completely collapsed his bad OL.

Where does Kyle Orton provide ANY Of that kind of play to the offense? He doesn't make things happen with his feet, he doesn't see WRs when on the move, he doesn't find the open guy outside his first read, and he most certainly can not shrug off defenders that are hanging on him.

Orton would do horribly in Pitt.....remember Maddox? Orton is just another Maddox.

Buff
01-14-2010, 06:03 PM
And how many times did you see Big Ben get sacked because he held onto the ball too long? That offensive line is not as bad as they were made out to be and now people realize how much of it falls on Big Ben.

Orton would be fine. Would he do as well as Big Ben? No, but he'd be fine. That's another rant for another day/thread.

And Horse, I see more Denver games than you think. A perk of being a fat guy who eats about 20 bucks in food every Sunday at the same bar is that the bartenders and waiters (depending on where I sit, typically at the bar) put up the games you want to see. Also, and strangely enough, there have been times when Bears fans requested that the Broncos game be put up on one of the larger T.V.s so they could see how Orton was doing.

Orton holds the ball way too long too. I think he'd be worse off in Pitt's offense. But, honestly, I think what you see is what you get with him. I don't envision him getting much better or much worse in any offense.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-14-2010, 06:06 PM
Orton would do horribly in Pitt.....remember Maddox? Orton is just another Maddox.

Maddox had a better arm.

Ravage!!!
01-14-2010, 06:07 PM
Maddox had a better arm.

and more mobile!

Poet
01-14-2010, 06:09 PM
and more mobile!

And was one of the dumbest quarterbacks this side of Michael Vick.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-14-2010, 06:09 PM
and more mobile!

Yeah. Orton is the only QB I've ever seen take a 5 step drop... out of the shotgun. I guess he just needs more time to see the field, or maybe just to make his 3 yd curl route look more like a 15 yd pass because in the end, it is!

Poet
01-14-2010, 06:10 PM
Just a parting thought, King - Carson Palmer (who's never been accused of being a "scrambler") is more mobile than Orton, by far.

You know what Palmer's nickname is amongst some Cincinnati fans? The Golden Armed Statue.

I've seen them both play, and....they make certain stereotypes on white QBs look true. ;)

Ravage!!!
01-14-2010, 06:30 PM
And was one of the dumbest quarterbacks this side of Michael Vick.

Wayyyyyy too easy....... :laugh:

Poet
01-14-2010, 06:46 PM
Wayyyyyy too easy....... :laugh:

YO MAMA!

OOOOoOooOOoOoOOOOooOh! :salute:

rationalfan
01-14-2010, 06:56 PM
But it was Moss that caught the TD pass to put the Patriots ahead in the last minutes of the game, and it was Burress that caught the winning TD pas for the Giants.

Just as Roth made a good pass, Holmes made a better catch.

just because people made these plays doesn't make them difference makers. granted, i don't remember moss' touchdown. but burress was so wide open because of blown/ineffective coverage. i don't think it was his greatness that got him that open (and if i remember correctly, he had a bum knee in that game.) and, referencing my previous post, tyree's catch was much greater, in a more crucial situation, and he's not hailed as a star - yet he produced like one.

another example, terrell davis scored the winning touchdown in denver's first SB victory. but was it his greatness that created the scored or was it the greatness of denver's oline, or the boneheadedness of holmgren? davis was simply there to take advantage of the moment. like burress. or tyree.

holmes did the same thing last year in the SB. he made an outstanding play. but i wouldn't say he won the game, at least not any more than james harrison did with his big play at the end of the first half.

isolating a team's success to one player is unfair to the rest of the team, and to logic - unless you're talking about john elway, he's the exception to the rule.

Ravage!!!
01-14-2010, 07:06 PM
just because people made these plays doesn't make them difference makers. granted, i don't remember moss' touchdown. but burress was so wide open because of blown/ineffective coverage. i don't think it was his greatness that got him that open (and if i remember correctly, he had a bum knee in that game.) and, referencing my previous post, tyree's catch was much greater, in a more crucial situation, and he's not hailed as a star - yet he produced like one.

another example, terrell davis scored the winning touchdown in denver's first SB victory. but was it his greatness that created the scored or was it the greatness of denver's oline, or the boneheadedness of holmgren? davis was simply there to take advantage of the moment. like burress. or tyree.

holmes did the same thing last year in the SB. he made an outstanding play. but i wouldn't say he won the game, at least not any more than james harrison did with his big play at the end of the first half.

isolating a team's success to one player is unfair to the rest of the team, and to logic - unless you're talking about john elway, he's the exception to the rule.

Great players make great plays. "Taking advantage of the moment"... is making a great play. Burress' catch itself may not have been great, but many times another WR was open, a running lane was created, a seam was opened up... BECAUSE of the threat of Burress, or Moss. Tyree made one of the greatest catches in ALL of Super Bowl history, but can't even find a roster to play on now. Burress may not have needed to make a great catch on that play, but it was HIS skill that had the coaches call his number, why the defense called their coverage.

It was Randy Moss' skill that drove taht NE team to be undefeated and TO the Super Bowl.

A lesser WR most probably would not have made that catch thrown by Rothlesburger.... nor kept his feet in while doing it.

Obviously its very rare you can attribute any win, or loss, to a single play. YOu just can't. But you can't take away from that Player's skills and abilities, and simply say that he could have been replaced by just ANYONE, simply because its a team game. ITs a team game wrapped around individual performances. THe team GAINES by individual play. The team can win, or lose, based on an incredibly outstanding effort by a single individual.

Sometimes, just the presence of an incredible athlete on the field, has its effects for the team, and against the other. Those efforts, those plays, those individual performances can not simply be replicated by any 'body' that you put at his position. Great players make great plays...or.. they make simple plays into great outcomes...or they make the hard play look easy. Thus why some say "anyone could have done that."

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
01-14-2010, 07:12 PM
Just look at the bears, they don't need any good receivers to go 7-9, all they need is kick returners and cannon arms!

JDL
01-14-2010, 07:28 PM
I took 2 things from that article.

1. Good Defense
2. Balanced Offense

This is key... even teams like the Colts and Rams in years they won their Super Bowls, ran more (as a % of their plays) than they did in the regular season.

Also, the reason the Pats lost that game was that they couldn't PROTECT Brady... period... there are a multitude of ways to protect a QB (not the least of which is keeping the D off-balance by being able to run the ball, rather than letting DEs tee off play after play.) Plus, Brady had the knee thing and didn't have the same mobility, slow QB equals Orton .. it is something that is going to happen and you need to limit it with a balanced attack.

red98
01-14-2010, 07:52 PM
yes, because the giants' dominant pass rush had nothing to do with winning that superbowl. plus, keep in mind that burress wasn't the receiver that made the play of the game. it was david tyree, who's far from a star.

and in regards to last year's game, the receivers for both teams did well. but it's hard for me to suggest holmes or ward won the game. roethlisberger's arm did. the QB and the D are the common factor in pittsburgh's last two SB wins.

Who said the D had nothing to do with it?

Burress dominated the NFC Championship game, he was a BEAST. He killed GB
in that game. He then when on to catch the winning TD in that SB.

Byrne says "flashy WR don't help win SBs"

I say Byrne is an idiot that should go back to writing about beer.

EastCoastBronco
01-14-2010, 09:18 PM
Who said the D had nothing to do with it?

Burress dominated the NFC Championship game, he was a BEAST. He killed GB
in that game. He then when on to catch the winning TD in that SB.

Byrne says "flashy WR don't help win SBs"

I say Byrne is an idiot that should go back to writing about beer.

Burress did shit in the SB that year. Tyree, Spagnolo's plan and the Defence were the x factor. Burress made a routine catch for the winner. Now he's playin' basketball in Pelican Bay...

red98
01-14-2010, 09:35 PM
Burress did shit in the SB that year. Tyree, Spagnolo's plan and the Defence were the x factor. Burress made a routine catch for the winner. Now he's playin' basketball in Pelican Bay...

Why do people have such a hard time understanding the difference between
NFC championship game and SB?
:confused:

WARHORSE
01-15-2010, 06:25 AM
We can win with Marshall.

We can win without him.

Build the offensive line to juggernaut level. Make it to where we can line up and run on anyone.

Draft Iupati and Anthony Davis. If we had Anthony Davis, Iupati, Clady, Kuper and Harris..........we could simply rotate backs, and handoff left, right, center, and watch as we march down the field. Now THAT, would be a dominant line.

roomemp
01-15-2010, 10:27 AM
just because people made these plays doesn't make them difference makers. granted, i don't remember moss' touchdown. but burress was so wide open because of blown/ineffective coverage. i don't think it was his greatness that got him that open (and if i remember correctly, he had a bum knee in that game.) and, referencing my previous post, tyree's catch was much greater, in a more crucial situation, and he's not hailed as a star - yet he produced like one.

another example, terrell davis scored the winning touchdown in denver's first SB victory. but was it his greatness that created the scored or was it the greatness of denver's oline, or the boneheadedness of holmgren? davis was simply there to take advantage of the moment. like burress. or tyree.

holmes did the same thing last year in the SB. he made an outstanding play. but i wouldn't say he won the game, at least not any more than james harrison did with his big play at the end of the first half.

isolating a team's success to one player is unfair to the rest of the team, and to logic - unless you're talking about john elway, he's the exception to the rule.


Perfect statement. I couldn't agree more. Football is a team sport. Although a player can make good plays, its not all on the player that made that paticular play. For example, the TD pass that Marshall caught against Dallas. The one that won the game. The snap had to be good....The potection needed to hold up......Orton had to put the ball where Marshall could make a play on it.....Marshall needed to make the catch....Marshall needed to get to the outside.......The other receivers needed to make downfield blocks........

Football is not like Baseball or Basetball.....Those sports have true true playmakers.......An individual in basketball can make the game winning shot all by themselves....A player can hit the go ahead HR in Baseball.

This is why I don't understand why some people are so against McDaniels philosophy of team first........Marshall .....Cutler.......Scheffler.......Doom...Montana.. ..Marino....Elway etc........Do not win games all by themselves....It takes others.... Elway might get all the glory but even he knows he needs good receivers to catch balls to make him look good.

Its really that simple

Ravage!!!
01-15-2010, 12:04 PM
Uhhuh.. and thats why you see so many SBs won without quality, outstanding, players on both sides of the ball. Because it just takes a good snap, a block to hold the dfenders away, a throw, and a catch. Simple as that.

Poet
01-15-2010, 12:08 PM
Uhhuh.. and thats why you see so many SBs won without quality, outstanding, players on both sides of the ball. Because it just takes a good snap, a block to hold the dfenders away, a throw, and a catch. Simple as that.

I see the SB being won by great teams. And more often than not those teams don't have elite WRs. I mean yeah, the Colts had Wayne (who is a beast IMO) and the Rams had Holt (who was a beast in his own time), but what other teams had that beastly top five WR? The Steelers didn't, the Patriots didn't, the Ravens didn't, Burris was a good WR but he wasn't an elite WR IMO, so what gives?

I'm not saying I wouldn't take a guy like Marshall on my team as far as his play, but he plays the position he plays, and an attitude and actions like that make it seem pretty easy to ship him off for some picks.

Ravage!!!
01-15-2010, 12:18 PM
I see the SB being won by great teams. And more often than not those teams don't have elite WRs. I mean yeah, the Colts had Wayne (who is a beast IMO) and the Rams had Holt (who was a beast in his own time), but what other teams had that beastly top five WR? The Steelers didn't, the Patriots didn't, the Ravens didn't, Burris was a good WR but he wasn't an elite WR IMO, so what gives?

I'm not saying I wouldn't take a guy like Marshall on my team as far as his play, but he plays the position he plays, and an attitude and actions like that make it seem pretty easy to ship him off for some picks.

I could say that about every position.

I've seen teams with without elite QBs, RBs, RTs, LTs, DTs, LBs, Saftis and CBs win Super Bowls.

But anytime you take an elite player off your roster, you are downgrading. Anytime you downgrade, you are not getting better. Like I said before, it doesn't even have to be a catch that the elite WR makes.....its his presence alone that makes the other players more of a threat.

Teams that GENERALLY win more than one Super Bowl... have elite WR talent. The Steelers in the 70's, the Cowboys of the 90's, the Bills of the 90s, and the Steelers of the 00's does have Ward, mixed in with Holmes. Is either a top 5, no.. but you can't tell me that Ward hasn't always been a special player, and elite type of talent that always shows up in big games.

How many elite players do you lose? Any player you lose you have to replace, but replacing an elite talent just isn't that easy to do.

As we showed in other threads.. CAN you win without an elite QB, sure. Can you win without an elite WR, sure. But if you want to have the BEST chances to be contenders each and every year, you are MUCH better off WITH the talent on YOUR team. and not on someone elses with only a hope and a dream (draft pick) in your hand.

Even the Patriots. The year they were winning SBs, the WRs were playing like elite talent. Why, because they had elite QB. We don't have an elite QB by ANY means.... so you HAVE to make up for that LARGE loss of talent in other areas on offense.

Poet
01-15-2010, 12:32 PM
I could say that about every position.

I've seen teams with without elite QBs, RBs, RTs, LTs, DTs, LBs, Saftis and CBs win Super Bowls.

True, but it seems to me that the most overrated position in football is the one that gets the most attention next to QB of course, and that is WR. Why is it that we make such a huge deal out of these guys?

Maybe it's because the last crop of those guys sucked balls to listen to. Randy Moss and T.O. are and were asses. I like Ocho, but I can understand that he's grating. Steve Smith was sort of in between those guys, but he does rub some people the wrong way.

However, out of pretty much position you just listed, I would rather have an elite QB, RB, RT, LT, DT LB and corners over an elite WR. I'd take an elite WR over an elite safety, though.


But anytime you take an elite player off your roster, you are downgrading. Anytime you downgrade, you are not getting better. Like I said before, it doesn't even have to be a catch that the elite WR makes.....its his presence alone that makes the other players more of a threat.

Yes and no. On paper your team gets worse without Marshall. He does make your players more of a threat because he is a beast on the field. Moss makes Welker a better player, Ocho did it for T.J., T.O. did it for..whoever the hell the Eagles second WR was, etc etc etc.

However, when they won't play for you they have no worth. When they keep quitting on the team and putting themselves ahead of the team they have no worth.

Why do you want to keep the guy who won't play on a hammy that has no structural damage? Or a guy who 'had trouble breathing because of the cold air'? Especially after the turd got suspended for being an idiot and somehow jacked up his wrist by slipping on a McDonald's wrapper?

Dude is selfish and honestly I'm convinced that he's an idiot.


Teams that GENERALLY win more than one Super Bowl... have elite WR talent. The Steelers in the 70's, the Cowboys of the 90's, the Bills of the 90s, and the Steelers of the 00's does have Ward, mixed in with Holmes. Is either a top 5, no.. but you can't tell me that Ward hasn't always been a special player, and elite type of talent that always shows up in big games.

Ward is a HOFer and Holmes is a good WR. But neither are as good as Marshall is (in receiving, Ward in his prime I'd take in a heartbeat over Marshall). However, that's sorta my point. Give me guys like those two over Marshall. And those guys on the Steel Curtain or on the Cowboys PLAYED HARD FOR THEIR TEAM AND DIDN'T QUIT ON THEM BY BEING A SELFISH HEBITCH.




How many elite players do you lose? Any player you lose you have to replace, but replacing an elite talent just isn't that easy to do.

You don't want to lose any, but when they force your hand like Marshall has.... That's what I don't get, to me it seems like you know Marshall is a turd, but you're not mad at him for being a turd. I'm guessing you think McD is full of shit, Marshall is a shitter but not as bad as people think and that a new contract would patch it all up?


As we showed in other threads.. CAN you win without an elite QB, sure. Can you win without an elite WR, sure. But if you want to have the BEST chances to be contenders each and every year, you are MUCH better off WITH the talent on YOUR team. Not someone elses with a hope and a dream (draft pick) in your hand.

I agree, if Marshall had the attitude of Larry Fitzgerald or Calvin Johnson having him on your team would be a huge asset.

It really sucks that he's such a cancer.

Lonestar
01-15-2010, 01:34 PM
Wow everyone tearing Kyle down by comparing him to big Ben that has been in his system now for how many years now 6-7. Along with almost everyone else on the O actually knowing the PLAYBOOK.

Absolutey amazing the amount of hate for our QB. What did he do to piss Y'all off so much, besides working his ass off. He did not sign a FA contract here. He got traded here after your diva refused to play in DEN because he got butt hurt.

Absolutey ******* amazing Y'all can't move on.

This kid has done everything and more to win games for you bunch of ingrates. Unlike your boy jay.

Time to step up or move on IMHO.
Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-15-2010, 01:41 PM
Wow everyone tearing Kyle down by comparing him to big Ben that has been in his system now for how many years now 6-7. Along with almost everyone else on the O actually knowing the PLAYBOOK.

Absolutey amazing the amount of hate for our QB. What did he do to piss Y'all off so much, besides working his ass off. He did not sign a FA contract here. He got traded here after your diva refused to play in DEN because he got butt hurt.

Absolutey ******* amazing Y'all can't move on.

This kid has done everything and more to win games for you bunch of ingrates. Unlike your boy jay.

Time to step up or move on IMHO.
Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

For the last time, JR. It has NOTHING to do with the SYSTEM. Kyle cannot scramble or throw accurately over 10 yards. What is so hard to understand? Learning the playbook better and being a "system expert" WILL NOT MAKE HIS PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES BETTER. That is the point. It's not about time in a system, or coaching, or how much you like him or dislike him. He does not have the physical abilities necessary to be a good QB. He's average only because he does an okay job with decision making (not throwing into coverage at all or holding on to the ball - first read is open or get rid of it) which is engineered into the system anyway. Any QB on any roster could've done what Kyle did last year. That's the point!

There's a reason the Bears traded him along with 2 first round picks and a 3rd rounder for a guy at the same position. He's just not very good. Trust me, it's not because we're so much smarter than the Bears and took them to the cleaners to get some stud QB.

topscribe
01-15-2010, 01:52 PM
For the last time, JR. It has NOTHING to do with the SYSTEM. Kyle cannot scramble or throw accurately over 10 yards. What is so hard to understand?

What is hard to understand is what games you were watching this year.

Of course, Kyle could not scramble well with a high ankle sprain. But did you
see him in the final KC game? He scrambled left. He scrambled right. He spun
out of a defenders grasp, and then spun out of another defender's grasp, on
the same play! He ran for a first down on a third and long.

And can't complete a pass over 10 yards? He completed 90 passes between
11-20 yards. He completed 30 passes 21-30 yards. He completed 6 passes
31-40 yards. He completed 6 passes 41+ yards.

Some people just latch onto a fantasy belief so strong that you could take
them outside to show them the blue sky, and they would still swear it is green. :tsk:

-----

HORSEPOWER 56
01-15-2010, 02:02 PM
What is hard to understand is what games you were watching this year.

Of course, Kyle could not scramble well with a high ankle sprain. But did you
see him in the final KC game? He scrambled left. He scrambled right. He spun
out of a defenders grasp, and then spun out of another defender's grasp, on
the same play. He ran for a first down on a third and long.

And can't complete a pass over 10 yards? He completed 90 passes between
11-20 yards. He completed 30 passes 21-30 yards. He completed 6 passes
31-40 yards. He completed 6 passes 41+ yards.

Some people just latch onto a fantasy belief so strong that you could take
them outside to show them the blue sky, and they would still swear it is green. :tsk:

-----

That's where you're not watching games, top. You're too busy looking at numbers and not at actual play. Of all those passes, how many were over 10 yards IN THE AIR? How many were screens to Marshall or Buck that they took for 10-20 yards? The numbers are incredibly deceiving. Take away a TON of YAC and the proof is in the pudding. I don't think I EVER saw Orton hit a WR more than 10 Yards down the field IN STRIDE except for one of the two deep throws to Marshall in the Washington game. The other, Marshall had to wait on because it was underthrown.

Blame the high ankle sprain, blame the finger, EVERYONE GETS NICKED. I watched the last 10 games and all I saw was a QB that would not throw down field and when he did it was either intercepted or batted down because it was a big underthrown rainbow. I saw a QB, EVERY WEEK, that looked like a backup out there. A QB who checked down or got the deer in the headlights look and got sacked way more than he should've. I saw a guy that looked uncomfortable under center and was taking 3-5 step drops in the shotgun which is almost unheard of. I saw a guy playing scared, conservative football who was content to not throw an INT and go sit on the bench by himself after repeated three and outs.

Remember that "trying to win a mother******* game" ass chewing McD gave the offense that got on tv? THAT SHOULD'VE BEEN ORTON!

WARHORSE
01-15-2010, 02:26 PM
Perfect statement. I couldn't agree more. Football is a team sport. Although a player can make good plays, its not all on the player that made that paticular play. For example, the TD pass that Marshall caught against Dallas. The one that won the game. The snap had to be good....The potection needed to hold up......Orton had to put the ball where Marshall could make a play on it.....Marshall needed to make the catch....Marshall needed to get to the outside.......The other receivers needed to make downfield blocks........

Football is not like Baseball or Basetball.....Those sports have true true playmakers.......An individual in basketball can make the game winning shot all by themselves....A player can hit the go ahead HR in Baseball.

This is why I don't understand why some people are so against McDaniels philosophy of team first........Marshall .....Cutler.......Scheffler.......Doom...Montana.. ..Marino....Elway etc........Do not win games all by themselves....It takes others.... Elway might get all the glory but even he knows he needs good receivers to catch balls to make him look good.

Its really that simple



Its not that anyone is against him. Its called the Fun Filled Funky Fickle Fandom of Frumpy Football Fanatics Today. Or FFFFFFFFT! for short.


The days of leaving the booing to opposing teams fan base are over.

Todays fans are supportive as long as youre winning.

Part of the Y generation, which promptly follows the X generation. Y I gotta do this? Y I gotta do that? Y me? Y should I?


If I choose your team, you better make me a winner or I will BOO you.


Id rather have boils.:coffee:

topscribe
01-15-2010, 02:54 PM
That's where you're not watching games, top. You're too busy looking at numbers and not at actual play. Of all those passes, how many were over 10 yards IN THE AIR? How many were screens to Marshall or Buck that they took for 10-20 yards? The numbers are incredibly deceiving. Take away a TON of YAC and the proof is in the pudding. I don't think I EVER saw Orton hit a WR more than 10 Yards down the field IN STRIDE except for one of the two deep throws to Marshall in the Washington game. The other, Marshall had to wait on because it was underthrown.

Blame the high ankle sprain, blame the finger, EVERYONE GETS NICKED. I watched the last 10 games and all I saw was a QB that would not throw down field and when he did it was either intercepted or batted down because it was a big underthrown rainbow. I saw a QB, EVERY WEEK, that looked like a backup out there. A QB who checked down or got the deer in the headlights look and got sacked way more than he should've. I saw a guy that looked uncomfortable under center and was taking 3-5 step drops in the shotgun which is almost unheard of. I saw a guy playing scared, conservative football who was content to not throw an INT and go sit on the bench by himself after repeated three and outs.

Remember that "trying to win a mother******* game" ass chewing McD gave the offense that got on tv? THAT SHOULD'VE BEEN ORTON!

Right. Every QB gets a dislocated finger on his throwing hand, so severe the
bone pops through the skin, and still plays, doesn't he? Every QB suffers a
high ankle sprain and comes out and plays the next game and the rest of the
season, doesn't he? That is not "nicked." That is injury--severe injury. With
the "excuse" tag, you are locking yourself out of the type of analysis that
would be worthy of credibility.

And what I presented on Kyle's pass completion percentages is just as
reasonable as your asinine "can't complete a pass over 10 yards." That is just
absolutely stupid.

And who cares about "in stride"? All I care is whether the QB gets it there.
And Kyle has gotten it there. The idea is the yardage gain, not the Fantasy
Football style points.

You obviously miss a lot from your couch. One of the things you have missed
is that this offense is a YAC team. By design. That is what they do. You are
taking the offense's M.O. and using that as a ludicrous argument against Kyle.

But then, these are the old, tired, worn-out arguments all the Orton-haters
have used all along. You see, you don't like the numbers because you can't
argue against them. A "yes he is," "no he isn't" argument better fits the style
of many here . . .

P.S. The chewing out you alluded to shows you don't always seem to watch
the games closely. McDaniels was talking about blocking. That is not in Orton's
job description . . .

-----

Lonestar
01-15-2010, 02:54 PM
For the last time, JR. It has NOTHING to do with the SYSTEM. Kyle cannot scramble or throw accurately over 10 yards. What is so hard to understand? Learning the playbook better and being a "system expert" WILL NOT MAKE HIS PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES BETTER. That is the point. It's not about time in a system, or coaching, or how much you like him or dislike him. He does not have the physical abilities necessary to be a good QB. He's average only because he does an okay job with decision making (not throwing into coverage at all or holding on to the ball - first read is open or get rid of it) which is engineered into the system anyway. Any QB on any roster could've done what Kyle did last year. That's the point!

There's a reason the Bears traded him along with 2 first round picks and a 3rd rounder for a guy at the same position. He's just not very good. Trust me, it's not because we're so much smarter than the Bears and took them to the cleaners to get some stud QB.


the reason the bears traded two icks for him was they fell into the same hoe Y;all have that jay was a franchise QB. he very well might be down the road but I think he is another jeff george guy with a great arm that does thing the way he wants. to the determent of the team.

so far we do not know that Kyle does not have a good arm like Y'all contend
he has really not been given the time to get comfortable in the scheme and get his timing down with all of his WR's. yes I know that he got to play almost all of the snaps, but while Y"all were content to give jay 3 years to know mikes system he got 15 games much of which he was hurt. or was behind a decimated OLINE.

perhaps you should let the coach do the coaching.. I will give them time to find out for sure who is right and who is wrong . unlike most of the arm chair HC/GM's here.
I was critical of mike for his lame brained draft choices except for 2006 and that still remains to be seen whether it was all that great, they stunk.. the way I gauge that is does a DAY ONE draft choice get resigned after their rookie contract expires. so far mikes record was poor at best .

IIRC only DJ and Al Wilson were offered and signed contracts since 1998. I canna't recall ever saying that make was not a great OC, but giving him carte blanc with the check book was a huge mistake by Pat.

Is Kyle the answer I'm not totally sure, but I know in my heart that jay would have never listened to Josh. I'm pretty sure NOW, that few folks think that would have been possible.

so IMHO it is time to get off jays jock embrace who we have and see what magic that will happen next year perhaps it will be 12-0 before they slide a bit.

I'm willing to allow the coach time to get his marbles in the game, and see how he does.

is there anyone here that finds it life threatening if we do not win the super bowl in his second season as a HC? if so why where you not concerned the past 9 years?

Why can't Y'all?

topscribe
01-15-2010, 02:57 PM
the reason the bears traded two icks for him was they fell into the same hoe Y;all have that jay was a franchise QB. he very well might be down the road but I think he is another jeff george guy with a great arm that does thing the way he wants. to the determent of the team.

so far we do not know that Kyle does not have a good arm like Y'all contend
he has really not been given the time to get comfortable in the scheme and get his timing down with all of his WR's. yes I know that he got to play almost all of the snaps, but while Y"all were content to give jay 3 years to know mikes system he got 15 games much of which he was hurt. or was behind a decimated OLINE.

perhaps you should let the coach do the coaching.. I will give them time to find out for sure who is right and who is wrong . unlike most of the arm chair HC/GM's here.
I was critical of mike for his lame brained draft choices except for 2006 and that still remains to be seen whether it was all that great, they stunk.. the way I gauge that is does a DAY ONE draft choice get resigned after their rookie contract expires. so far mikes record was poor at best .

IIRC only DJ and Al Wilson were offered and signed contracts since 1998. I canna't recall ever saying that make was not a great OC, but giving him carte blanc with the check book was a huge mistake by Pat.

Is Kyle the answer I'm not totally sure, but I know in my heart that jay would have never listened to Josh. I'm pretty sure NOW, that few folks think that would have been possible.

so IMHO it is time to get off jays jock embrace who we have and see what magic that will happen next year perhaps it will be 12-0 before they slide a bit.

I'm willing to allow the coach time to get his marbles in the game, and see how he does.

is there anyone here that finds it life threatening if we do not win the super bowl in his second season as a HC? if so why where you not concerned the past 9 years?

Why can't Y'all?

The fact the Bears gave 2 1sts, a 3rd, plus Orton for Cutler proves how
stupid they were in that trade. Kinda ruins their credibility in why they "threw
in" Orton, doesn't it? :coffee:

But yes, we do know Kyle has a strong arm--a very strong arm. As I have
mentioned ad nauseam, he threw the ball 74 yards as a high school kid, before
he was fully developed. We've seen several 50+ yard (in the air) throws by
him, and one that went 65 yards. Once again, Kyle has a very strong arm.

-----

Lonestar
01-15-2010, 03:23 PM
What is hard to understand is what games you were watching this year.

Of course, Kyle could not scramble well with a high ankle sprain. But did you
see him in the final KC game? He scrambled left. He scrambled right. He spun
out of a defenders grasp, and then spun out of another defender's grasp, on
the same play! He ran for a first down on a third and long.

And can't complete a pass over 10 yards? He completed 90 passes between
11-20 yards. He completed 30 passes 21-30 yards. He completed 6 passes
31-40 yards. He completed 6 passes 41+ yards.

Some people just latch onto a fantasy belief so strong that you could take
them outside to show them the blue sky, and they would still swear it is green. :tsk:

-----

some folks are so blinded by their hate for anything not mike and jay, they will not get it no sense in debating with folks that do not want to be logical.

I can't every recall a QB that played games after a compound dislocation on his throwing hand perhaps the most important finger other than the thumb for accuracy sake.

I know that many have played with ankle injuries but then again they were not behind hamilton and weigman having NO ability to step up into the pocket because the Dt/NT was where the pocket was supposed to be.

every game I watch and granted I did not see them all I thought there was a disconnect in timing or routes. whether it was the QB or WR off I do not know and maybe it was a combination of both.

Why did Josh not probe down field more good question but I do not believe it was because of a rag arm. Perhaps it was because the defense was giving them the short passes and if you are moving the chains that way going for the grand slam which in itself is a much lower % pass completion regardless of who the QB is why do it.
as for under thrown passes by Kyle and marshall having to wait for them. did anyone stop to think for a moment that would improve with more practice at it. after all if you are not doing it much in practice how do you get the timing down.


all the comparisons of Qb's that are HOF types are guys that have been in there system for more thatn 15 games also.. might just allow Josh to work some magic this off season studying film and coaching that Kyle did not get last offseason.

but then it is just easier to yap yap yap away like pekinese, thinking that someone cares. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

claymore
01-15-2010, 03:41 PM
some folks are so blinded by their hate for anything not mike and jay, they will not get it no sense in debating with folks that do not want to be logical.

I can't every recall a QB that played games after a compound dislocation on his throwing hand perhaps the most important finger other than the thumb for accuracy sake.

I know that many have played with ankle injuries but then again they were not behind hamilton and weigman having NO ability to step up into the pocket because the Dt/NT was where the pocket was supposed to be.

every game I watch and granted I did not see them all I thought there was a disconnect in timing or routes. whether it was the QB or WR off I do not know and maybe it was a combination of both.

Why did Josh not probe down field more good question but I do not believe it was because of a rag arm. Perhaps it was because the defense was giving them the short passes and if you are moving the chains that way going for the grand slam which in itself is a much lower % pass completion regardless of who the QB is why do it.
as for under thrown passes by Kyle and marshall having to wait for them. did anyone stop to think for a moment that would improve with more practice at it. after all if you are not doing it much in practice how do you get the timing down.


all the comparisons of Qb's that are HOF types are guys that have been in there system for more thatn 15 games also.. might just allow Josh to work some magic this off season studying film and coaching that Kyle did not get last offseason.

but then it is just easier to yap yap yap away like pekinese, thinking that someone cares. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Blinded by hate? You have NO room to talk!

Biz1
01-15-2010, 04:03 PM
The fact the Bears gave 2 1sts, a 3rd, plus Orton for Cutler proves how
stupid they were in that trade. Kinda ruins their credibility in why they "threw
in" Orton, doesn't it? :coffee:

But yes, we do know Kyle has a strong arm--a very strong arm. As I have
mentioned ad nauseam, he threw the ball 74 yards as a high school kid, before
he was fully developed. We've seen several 50+ yard (in the air) throws by
him, and one that went 65 yards. Once again, Kyle has a very strong arm.

-----

*sighs*, Will it take a second/third generation of fans to forget about Elway?(general comment directed at nobody in particular). Bronco fans seem to be much harder on their QB's in comparison with other fans. I never wanted to give up Orton, and that Michael Jordan email you sent me doesn't make me feel any better about Cutler at this point. We got robbed!.:lol:

Ravage!!!
01-15-2010, 04:08 PM
True, but it seems to me that the most overrated position in football is the one that gets the most attention next to QB of course, and that is WR. Why is it that we make such a huge deal out of these guys?
Because its a passing league and the rules are made around passing.



However, out of pretty much position you just listed, I would rather have an elite QB, RB, RT, LT, DT LB and corners over an elite WR. I'd take an elite WR over an elite safety, though.

and when you only have an elite LT out of those positions listed?


Why do you want to keep the guy who won't play on a hammy that has no structural damage? Or a guy who 'had trouble breathing because of the cold air'? Especially after the turd got suspended for being an idiot and somehow jacked up his wrist by slipping on a McDonald's wrapper?


Sorry man, Im' not buying this. There was nothing that showed up on Al Wilson's MRI, and Rod SMith's MRI, and Marshall's hip last year. I personally think its ridiculous to think that this MRI is some kind of magical 'proof' that Marshall did or didn't have an injury, and now he's supposed to be held accountable by a medical that has proved to be so unreliable already? Especially when he just went 15 games and busted his ASS for this team? What did he have to gain by sitting if he wasn't hurt? Not buying that junk for a moment. You can if you want. I know how you feel about Marshall, and you are going to take McD's opinion on the situation. Thats cool. But when this PARTICULAR staff has already misdiagnosed two of Denver's all-time greats.. guys that would NEVER have their heart/toughness/integrity questioned (especially publicly by the coach).... then I have no reason to trust them with this.

I also have NO reason to believe that McDaniels didn't make an overly-passionate and overly-emotional decision with Marshall on this. Thats what he's shown to be.. someone that is QUICK to react, and stubborn to recant. His passion and excitement are both his plus and his minus, and I think these player relations are the perfect example of them being the minus.



Ward is a HOFer and Holmes is a good WR. But neither are as good as Marshall is (in receiving, Ward in his prime I'd take in a heartbeat over Marshall). However, that's sorta my point. Give me guys like those two over Marshall. And those guys on the Steel Curtain or on the Cowboys PLAYED HARD FOR THEIR TEAM AND DIDN'T QUIT ON THEM BY BEING A SELFISH HEBITCH.
Again.. you want to get rid of the guys we HAVE and hope to find guys like Ward???? Until you have someone like him on the roster, chances of finding a guy with that kind of ability AND the kind of 'perfect' personality you want, are very very rare. When you have an elite talent, especially when you don't have anyone else even CLOSE to replacing him with... getting rid of him simply lowers the abilities of your team.

YOur statement as far as Marshall 'quitting" on the team, has no value to me. Thats taking McD's word on the situation, and again, he hasn't shown me for a MOMENT to tell the truth at all. He's proved time that he will lie as fast as anyone to make himself look good to the media. So you have nothing that gives me any true indication that Marshall would all-of-a-sudden QUIT on this team when he proved to be ALL EVERYTHING all season long for us. Just doesn't hold water to me.



You don't want to lose any, but when they force your hand like Marshall has.... That's what I don't get, to me it seems like you know Marshall is a turd, but you're not mad at him for being a turd. I'm guessing you think McD is full of shit, Marshall is a shitter but not as bad as people think and that a new contract would patch it all up?

CLose. I don't think a new contract patches anything up with Marshall here. Not one bit. Nothing is going to make Marshall want to play for this coach.. money or not. I know he's gone. But you are right. I do think that they BOTH need to do a LOT of growing up. My biggest problem, is that while our HC is learning to grow up, we are hemorrhaging big-time talent. Big time talent that didn't have any problems with previous, more mature, coaches. Seems like an awful BIG coincidence that we are blaming several different players, and then trying to blame previous coaches, when the ONE common denominator is staring us in the face. :whoeknows:



I agree, if Marshall had the attitude of Larry Fitzgerald or Calvin Johnson having him on your team would be a huge asset.

It really sucks that he's such a cancer.

Same could be said about Ocho, right? Cancer implies that what he is doing is some how "spreading" throughout the locker room.. like cancer spreads. Nothing Marshall has done is spreading around and tearing at the locker room.

If we had elite talent at QB, where they could make other WRs look better, and perform better....then losing a star WR doesn't hurt as bad. When you have the kind of average talent we have at QB, you can't lose the only star you have on offense and simply expect to make it up with other average players (like gaffney).

It seems that the biggest "mantra" around here is "no one is bigger than the team." To me, that stands for the coach as well. Respect is earned, not demanded simply because you wear the HC hat.

Poet
01-15-2010, 05:21 PM
Because its a passing league and the rules are made around passing.

You make it sound like only stud WRs get to play with those rules. Here's the thing, it's a passing league but still teams aren't winning SB's with super duper elite wideouts (mostly).





and when you only have an elite LT out of those positions listed?

You typically would want to get more elite players. A great way to do that is to acquire draft picks. A great way to do that is to make a trade. A great way to make a trade is to find a player you can live without. Hey, don't you guys have some numbskull wideout who is really good but is a cancer....I bet you could trade him! ;)




Sorry man, Im' not buying this. There was nothing that showed up on Al Wilson's MRI, and Rod SMith's MRI, and Marshall's hip last year. I personally think its ridiculous to think that this MRI is some kind of magical 'proof' that Marshall did or didn't have an injury, and now he's supposed to be held accountable by a medical that has proved to be so unreliable already? Especially when he just went 15 games and busted his ASS for this team? What did he have to gain by sitting if he wasn't hurt? Not buying that junk for a moment. You can if you want. I know how you feel about Marshall, and you are going to take McD's opinion on the situation. Thats cool. But when this PARTICULAR staff has already misdiagnosed two of Denver's all-time greats.. guys that would NEVER have their heart/toughness/integrity questioned (especially publicly by the coach).... then I have no reason to trust them with this.

The issue is that I have no reason to trust Marshall who is as trust worthy and believable as Rod Blagojevich. I would have an easier time believing Marshall if he didn't leave practice because cold air makes it hard for him to breathe.


I also have NO reason to believe that McDaniels didn't make an overly-passionate and overly-emotional decision with Marshall on this. Thats what he's shown to be.. someone that is QUICK to react, and stubborn to recant. His passion and excitement are both his plus and his minus, and I think these player relations are the perfect example of them being the minus.

The issue is that his own players went to him and asked him to get tough on the team. It seems to me that there are only a few players who have bad relation with him.


Again.. you want to get rid of the guys we HAVE and hope to find guys like Ward???? Until you have someone like him on the roster, chances of finding a guy with that kind of ability AND the kind of 'perfect' personality you want, are very very rare. When you have an elite talent, especially when you don't have anyone else even CLOSE to replacing him with... getting rid of him simply lowers the abilities of your team.

It seems better than keeping a guy who constantly quits on you. It seems better to make a real offense that has diversified threats. Go ahead and keep him. I mean it's worked out great for you guys in the past, right? All sorts of playoff berths and what not have come from the fruits of Marshall's labor.


YOur statement as far as Marshall 'quitting" on the team, has no value to me. Thats taking McD's word on the situation, and again, he hasn't shown me for a MOMENT to tell the truth at all. He's proved time that he will lie as fast as anyone to make himself look good to the media. So you have nothing that gives me any true indication that Marshall would all-of-a-sudden QUIT on this team when he proved to be ALL EVERYTHING all season long for us. Just doesn't hold water to me.

And your counterargument holds no water to me. I guess it's nice we can argue this out on a message board, huh? :salute:

I don't recall McDaniels lying at all. Why is Marshall quitting on you a surprise? I have been repeatedly bashed on this website for going "Yeah, Marshall, great player, too bad he's bad for your team." I remember getting slaughtered for posting "It's funny how quickly a fanbase can forget the past actions of players."

Yeah, let me tell you who ISN'T looking like an ass right now on that one. I'll give you a hint, he's a Bengals fan, one of your favorite posters and really likes bacon. :laugh:

It's the same guy who was drafted in the second or third round because he was an idiot in college. The same guy who repeatedly got into trouble with the law. The same guy who was batting balls down in the summer. The same guy who got suspended. The same guy who left practice because dammit to hell cold air is just brutal these days.

Go ahead and give him the benefit of the doubt because if you end up keeping him I'll enjoy another round of "I told you so."


[QUOTE]CLose. I don't think a new contract patches anything up with Marshall here. Not one bit. Nothing is going to make Marshall want to play for this coach.. money or not. I know he's gone. But you are right. I do think that they BOTH need to do a LOT of growing up. My biggest problem, is that while our HC is learning to grow up, we are hemorrhaging big-time talent. Big time talent that didn't have any problems with previous, more mature, coaches. Seems like an awful BIG coincidence that we are blaming several different players, and then trying to blame previous coaches, when the ONE common denominator is staring us in the face. :whoeknows:

One of those 'big time talents' helped force his own way out of town and the 'other' big time talent was reportedly on Shanahan's chopping block several times. Not my team, really couldn't comment on that one, but I do know that even if Cutler was his bad this one isn't. Marshall is a turd. A gigantic cancer. A 'tancer' if you will.



Same could be said about Ocho, right? Cancer implies that what he is doing is some how "spreading" throughout the locker room.. like cancer spreads. Nothing Marshall has done is spreading around and tearing at the locker room.

I could say that Peyton Manning is a cancer. Doesn't mean there's anything there to really substantiate it. Don't get me wrong, Ocho can act like an ass, but the difference with him is that he learns his lesson the first time. Does it excuse it? No. Would I rather have him on my team? Yeah, because at least when it comes time to play football I know that he's ready for it.


If we had elite talent at QB, where they could make other WRs look better, and perform better....then losing a star WR doesn't hurt as bad. When you have the kind of average talent we have at QB, you can't lose the only star you have on offense and simply expect to make it up with other average players (like gaffney).

And if you had a star wideout that wasn't a cancer....I understand what you're saying, but it seems to me like you know Marshall is a turd and is hurting your team.


It seems that the biggest "mantra" around here is "no one is bigger than the team." To me, that stands for the coach as well. Respect is earned, not demanded simply because you wear the HC hat.

McDaniels isn't acting like he's bigger than the team.

As always, Ravage, I've greatly enjoyed this exchange. :salute:

CoachChaz
01-15-2010, 05:47 PM
I'll take the stance that today's game is more about passing than it ever has been and having quality WR's is almost a must. However...I also believe you are better off with 3 good receivers than you are with 1 great receiver. Take a look at what Brees is setting records with in N.O. His numbers are better than most QB in the NFL...including Warner who has the Great Fitzgerald and Boldin in his arsenal. Romo had his best year in a long time...with Miles Austin and Roy Williams?

I'll take 3 good players over one great one any day. JMO

Lonestar
01-15-2010, 05:48 PM
I'll take the stance that today's game is more about passing than it ever has been and having quality WR's is almost a must. However...I also believe you are better off with 3 good receivers than you are with 1 great receiver. Take a look at what Brees is setting records with in N.O. His numbers are better than most QB in the NFL...including Warner who has the Great Fitzgerald and Boldin in his arsenal. Romo had his best year in a long time...with Miles Austin and Roy Williams?

I'll take 3 good players over one great one any day. JMO

even the "tres amigos":laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Ravage!!!
01-15-2010, 05:56 PM
....
I'm not going to go back and respond to all of that..... damn.


His own players didn't go to him. Seems of all people that would be honest about this, would be CHamp and Dawkins. Both denied the claims. That was just another story put out to justify the over emotional coach.

Not to mention you continue to say that Marshall "keeps quitting on you"... baseless and completely untrue statements, King. COMPLETELY false, and I can't believe you of all people are stating them.

Also.. you state that Marshall was on his way out with SHanahan.. ANOTHER false claim that was purely speculated by a writer, and disputed by SHanahan himself. I know you are better than to keep using false information as your facts.

Considering how many times Ocho gets fined, and has admitted to having a set FUND set aside each year to pay for his fines, how can ANYONE say "he learns his lesson after the first time????" Makes no sense.

But ifyou are talking about a player that comes to play.. then Marshalll proved that throughout the ENTIRE season with his 3rd 100+ catch season, and had to do that with Orton throwing to him this year. You'll have to do more to show me where this guy continues to 'quit on the team' as you keep suggesting.

Not buying it. Also believe this coach very much puts himself above the team. But.... tahts what disagreeing is about...seeing things completely different.

NightTrainLayne
01-15-2010, 06:08 PM
I'm not going to go back and respond to all of that..... damn.


His own players didn't go to him. Seems of all people that would be honest about this, would be CHamp and Dawkins. Both denied the claims. That was just another story put out to justify the over emotional coach.


Once again. The players did come to him early in the week and ask him to hold the team accountable.

Then on Wednesday during the team meeting, the word of the week was "accountability".

Then, Marshall was late for treatment and was benched as a means to hold him accountable.

The players didn't specifically ask for Marshall to be benched for being late for treatment, but prior to that incident they had asked McD to hold the team accountable.

Ravage!!!
01-15-2010, 06:25 PM
Once again. The players did come to him early in the week and ask him to hold the team accountable.

Then on Wednesday during the team meeting, the word of the week was "accountability".

Then, Marshall was late for treatment and was benched as a means to hold him accountable.

The players didn't specifically ask for Marshall to be benched for being late for treatment, but prior to that incident they had asked McD to hold the team accountable.

Again.. what does this prove to me? That supposedly the players came up to McD and said this, and then McD took this to mean he should bench his players?

Also, seems that the team word "accountability" came after Marshall told the coach that eh may not be able to go because of his hamstring.

Hey... like I said. You guys can see things as you want to see them, as we all will. I have yet to see a coach with maturity handle this team this year. He's an emotional coach, which we loved seeing after the NE game, but its the same emotional reactions we get when we see QBs being traded (or even going after), and then seeing more playings being benched in the most important game of the season.

So who's holding the coach accountable if he's doing things that aren't best for the team?

I'm not saying the players aren't immature, I just want to see that our that our coach can actually handle player relations WITHOUT trading them away or benching them.

Sure seems like there is an awful lot of coaches in the NFL that don't seem to be trading away pro-bowl players every year. But I'm sure its just ALL on the players.

Lonestar
01-15-2010, 07:55 PM
Once again. The players did come to him early in the week and ask him to hold the team accountable.

Then on Wednesday during the team meeting, the word of the week was "accountability".

Then, Marshall was late for treatment and was benched as a means to hold him accountable.

The players didn't specifically ask for Marshall to be benched for being late for treatment, but prior to that incident they had asked McD to hold the team accountable.

yes and the haters will say that did not mean benching anyone.

but what does the coach have other than setting someone or fining them.

what is he supposed to do get up and say brandon you are a bad boy lets not do this again.

some one mentioned earlier about the play calling, coach being to close to the forest to see the trees, perhaps if anyone makes this kind of come back it would seem they are so blinded for their hate for a coach and system they are really unable to "get it".

topscribe
01-15-2010, 08:08 PM
even the "tres amigos":laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

neg rep

-----

Lonestar
01-16-2010, 04:09 PM
found an interesting stat today that DEn had TWO players in the top 18 in the AFC for dropped passes both played less games than two their counter parts.

read it and weep.

http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats/league/passesdropped.html


Rank Name Team Games Drops
1 Braylon Edwards CLE 16 16
2 Dwayne Bowe KC 16 13
3 B Marshall DEN 15 12
T-4 LColes NYJ 16 8
T-4 Marcedes Lewis JAC 16 8
T-4 Marshawn Lynch BUF 15 8
T-7 Dallas Clark IND 15 7
T-7 A Gonzalez IND 16 7
T-7 Hines Ward PIT 16 7
T-10 Jabar Gaffney NE 16 6
T-10 Justin Gage TEN 12 6
T-10 Ted Ginn Jr. MIA 16 6
T-10 Santonio Holmes PIT 15 6
T-10 Chad Johnson CIN 13 6
T-10 Z Miller OAK 16 6
T-10 R Moss NE 16 6
T-10 Robert Royal BUF 15 6
T-18 Ronald Curry OAK 13 5
T-18 Houshmandzadeh CIN 15 5
T-18 Andre Johnson HOU 16 5
T-18 Chris Johnson TEN 15 5
T-18 Matt Jones JAC 12 5
T-18 M Jones-Drew JAC 16 5
T-18 Dustin Keller NYJ 16 5
T-18 Dennis Northcutt JAC 14 5
T-18 Tony Scheffler DEN 13 5


NFC Leaders
Passes Dropped
Rank Name Team Games Drops
1 Terrell Owens DAL 16 10
T-2 Calvin Johnson DET 16 9
T-2 Roddy White ATL 16 9
T-4 Marques Colston NO 11 8
T-4 Greg Jennings GB 16 8
T-4 Santana Moss WAS 16 8
T-4 M Muhammad CAR 16 8
T-8 Bernard Berrian MIN 16 7
T-8 Rashied Davis CHI 16 7
T-10 Donald Driver GB 16 6
T-10 Warrick Dunn TB 15 6
T-10 Bobby Engram SEA 13 6
T-10 M Hedgecock NYG 16 6
T-10 DeSean Jackson PHI 16 6
T-10 Steven Jackson STL 12 6
T-10 Koren Robinson SEA 12 6
T-10 L.J. Smith PHI 13 6
T-10 Steve Smith CAR 14 6
T-10 Amani Toomer NYG 16 6
T-10 Bobby Wade MIN 16 6
maybe this will help to end this debate about how good these guys are and how much will will suffer if we do not have them..

but then I doubt it..

HORSEPOWER 56
01-16-2010, 04:26 PM
found an interesting stat today that DEn had TWO players in the top 18 in the AFC for dropped passes both played less games than two their counter parts.

read it and weep.

http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats/league/passesdropped.html


Rank Name Team Games Drops
1 Braylon Edwards CLE 16 16
2 Dwayne Bowe KC 16 13
3 B Marshall DEN 15 12
T-4 LColes NYJ 16 8
T-4 Marcedes Lewis JAC 16 8
T-4 Marshawn Lynch BUF 15 8
T-7 Dallas Clark IND 15 7
T-7 A Gonzalez IND 16 7
T-7 Hines Ward PIT 16 7
T-10 Jabar Gaffney NE 16 6
T-10 Justin Gage TEN 12 6
T-10 Ted Ginn Jr. MIA 16 6
T-10 Santonio Holmes PIT 15 6
T-10 Chad Johnson CIN 13 6
T-10 Z Miller OAK 16 6
T-10 R Moss NE 16 6
T-10 Robert Royal BUF 15 6
T-18 Ronald Curry OAK 13 5
T-18 Houshmandzadeh CIN 15 5
T-18 Andre Johnson HOU 16 5
T-18 Chris Johnson TEN 15 5
T-18 Matt Jones JAC 12 5
T-18 M Jones-Drew JAC 16 5
T-18 Dustin Keller NYJ 16 5
T-18 Dennis Northcutt JAC 14 5
T-18 Tony Scheffler DEN 13 5


NFC Leaders
Passes Dropped
Rank Name Team Games Drops
1 Terrell Owens DAL 16 10
T-2 Calvin Johnson DET 16 9
T-2 Roddy White ATL 16 9
T-4 Marques Colston NO 11 8
T-4 Greg Jennings GB 16 8
T-4 Santana Moss WAS 16 8
T-4 M Muhammad CAR 16 8
T-8 Bernard Berrian MIN 16 7
T-8 Rashied Davis CHI 16 7
T-10 Donald Driver GB 16 6
T-10 Warrick Dunn TB 15 6
T-10 Bobby Engram SEA 13 6
T-10 M Hedgecock NYG 16 6
T-10 DeSean Jackson PHI 16 6
T-10 Steven Jackson STL 12 6
T-10 Koren Robinson SEA 12 6
T-10 L.J. Smith PHI 13 6
T-10 Steve Smith CAR 14 6
T-10 Amani Toomer NYG 16 6
T-10 Bobby Wade MIN 16 6
maybe this will help to end this debate about how good these guys are and how much will will suffer if we do not have them..

but then I doubt it..


You know those are from last year (2008), right? Half of the guys on that least aren't even on those teams anymore. Interesting to see such "high caliber guys" as Dallas Clark and Gregg Jennings up near the top, too. But wait, once again they were last year's numbers and add nothing to this conversation whatsoever. If you're going to try to use stats to discredit others and :coffee: it up all day, please at least use valid ones. Thanks.

Lonestar
01-16-2010, 04:58 PM
You know those are from last year (2008), right? Half of the guys on that least aren't even on those teams anymore. Interesting to see such "high caliber guys" as Dallas Clark and Gregg Jennings up near the top, too. But wait, once again they were last year's numbers and add nothing to this conversation whatsoever. If you're going to try to use stats to discredit others and :coffee: it up all day, please at least use valid ones. Thanks.


sorry thought they were last years. but the fact remains he drops a lot of passes. 7 this past year and had 53 not caught according to

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=107&year=

HORSEPOWER 56
01-16-2010, 05:01 PM
sorry thought they were last years. but the fact remains he drops a lot of passes. 7 this past year and had 53 not caught according to

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=107&year=

I wonder who the 53 not caught were about? Hmmm, Ummm, crap. I'll keep my mouth shut, but we all know the answer to who threw the ball to Marshall all season.