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Denver Native (Carol)
01-11-2010, 09:33 PM
http://www.gazette.com/sports/unrest-91894-affects-broncos.html

ENGLEWOOD – Of all the terms to describe the upcoming offseason for the Denver Broncos, don’t forget “complicated.”

Already the team is working on two different free-agency plans – with and without a new collective-bargaining agreement. If there is no new agreement, key players like outside linebacker Elvis Dumervil, receiver Brandon Marshall, tight end Tony Scheffler, quarterback Kyle Orton and guard Chris Kuper will be restricted free agents, not unrestricted as they would have been under the old agreement.

Many teams will be affected by what happens on the labor front in the next few months, but few are watching closer than the Broncos.

“We will have to wait and see,” coach Josh McDaniels said. “It’s certainly a thing that we are going to have to be patient with.”

While Orton and Dumervil might be pricey to keep, their spots with the team seem relatively secure. They both want to return and the organization appears ready to bring them back. The futures of Marshall and Scheffler are much messier. Both were deactivated for the season finale, and while nobody involved ruled out a return, it seems likely both could move on. If Marshall and Scheffler don’t return the Broncos lose two key pieces of their passing attack. Marshall would be particularly tough to replace, considering he caught 68 passes in his past eight games.

“We just want to have the guys that want to be here and play,” Orton said. “I hope that’s them. I hope they want to be here. They’re obviously great football players.”

Many of the Broncos’ issues in the offseason – more big plays on offense, a consistent pass rush from players other than Dumervil, finding eventual successors for the four starters in the secondary who are all older than 30, and beefing up the offensive line to run a power scheme – could be solved by the progress of the 2009 draft class. First-day picks running back Knowshon Moreno, outside linebacker Robert Ayers, cornerback Alphonso Smith and tight end Richard Quinn all got to play as rookies, with mixed results. The Broncos need all of them to have a bigger impact in 2010.

McDaniels said he met with the rookies the day after the season and let them know they aren’t rookies anymore, and more will be asked of them.

“We need to expect them to do some things that maybe we didn’t expect of them this year and they need to expect that of themselves,” McDaniels said.

McDaniels had a tough time answering questions about the Broncos’ plan in free agency, given the labor unrest. Last year Denver mostly targeted second-tier free agents like receiver Jabar Gaffney, running back Correll Buckhalter and defensive tackle Ronald Fields and signed them early in free agency.

Denver’s draft preparation will be different, McDaniels said. He said last year the front office didn’t get a full opportunity to evaluate college players because he was hired in January. This year, the Broncos already have preliminary draft rankings after scouting players during the season.

“That’s something that we didn’t get to last year until late February or early March,” McDaniels said. “We’re months in advance of that. We’ve got a really good idea of what we want to look for and the kind of players we’re looking for.”



Draft

Denver’s only first-round pick is the one it acquired from Chicago in the Jay Cutler trade. The pick will be 10th or 11th, depending on a coin flip with Jacksonville. The Broncos’ first-round pick, 14th overall, was traded to Seattle. Denver also does not have a fifth-round pick.



Free agency

Unrestricted free agents

P Mitch Berger, S Vernon Fox, OT Brandon Gorin, LB Nick Greisen, G Ben Hamilton, G Russ Hochstein, DE Vonnie Holliday, CB Ty Law, WR Brandon Lloyd



Free agents affected by CBA (restricted with no new agreement)

OLB Elvis Dumervil, G Chris Kuper, WR Brandon Marshall, QB Kyle Orton, TE Tony Scheffler, DE Le Kevin Smith



Restricted free agent

K Matt Prater



Exclusive rights free agent

S Josh Barrett



Needs

1. Receiver: Even if Brandon Marshall returns, the Broncos need more from their receivers. Denver needs to look long and hard at adding a deep threat.
2. Defensive line: The Broncos’ run defense wore down late in the year. Denver’s 3-4 defense demands top-notch players up front to be successful.
3. Offensive line: Guard Russ Hochstein’s season-ending knee injury makes the line even thinner. Josh McDaniels will want bigger linemen to run a power scheme.

frauschieze
01-11-2010, 11:12 PM
Denver’s draft preparation will be different, McDaniels said. He said last year the front office didn’t get a full opportunity to evaluate college players because he was hired in January. This year, the Broncos already have preliminary draft rankings after scouting players during the season.

“That’s something that we didn’t get to last year until late February or early March,” McDaniels said. “We’re months in advance of that. We’ve got a really good idea of what we want to look for and the kind of players we’re looking for.”

I hope to hell this means there are more than 100 players on his draft board!

Denver Native (Carol)
01-11-2010, 11:33 PM
I hope to hell this means there are more than 100 players on his draft board!

I can't see where it would not help to have not only additional time to do this, but also they have been scouting all season.

frauschieze
01-11-2010, 11:37 PM
I can't see where it would not help to have not only additional time to do this, but also they have been scouting all season.

It should help for sure, but if he's still only targeting a select few, instead of three or four hundred, that's bad news, even if the scouting team has had all season to look at them.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-11-2010, 11:41 PM
It should help for sure, but he's still only targeting a select few, instead of three or four hundred, that's bad news, even if the scouting team has had all season to look at them.

Where does it say that he is only targeting a select few?

frauschieze
01-11-2010, 11:46 PM
Where does it say that he is only targeting a select few?

It doesn't, Carol, but last year, after the draft, McD said he only had 100 players on his draft board. All I'm saying is I hope there are 3 times as many this year. Saying the scouting department has had more time to evaluate talent doesn't mean anything towards alleviating that concern of mine.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-11-2010, 11:52 PM
It doesn't, Carol, but last year, after the draft, McD said he only had 100 players on his draft board. All I'm saying is I hope there are 3 times as many this year. Saying the scouting department has had more time to evaluate talent doesn't mean anything towards alleviating that concern of mine.

I would hope that the time constraint from last year is what limited the players on his draft board. Or, maybe they start out with many players, and then trim it down. I don't know what the strategy is. I just feel better that this year they will have had a lot more time to devote to the draft than last.

Lonestar
01-12-2010, 12:22 AM
It doesn't, Carol, but last year, after the draft, McD said he only had 100 players on his draft board. All I'm saying is I hope there are 3 times as many this year. Saying the scouting department has had more time to evaluate talent doesn't mean anything towards alleviating that concern of mine.

they effectively started in JAnuary last year after his hiring.. before that the scouting was all prioritized for mike and his needs..


The actual number of players on the board means nada IF the last 150 are players we can't use in our schemes.. I think that was why they only had 100 last year they were the ones they KNEW they liked for this years team..

That of course does not mean they were all top choices but I suspect were spread all throughout he spectrum 1- 7th rounders..


as for marshall not coming back I heard a blurb out of DALLAS that everyone was saying when they unloaded TO that they were doomed..

in fact it was the best thing that could happen to them instead of TO coming back to the huddle and demanding the ball each time.. they were able to spread the ball almost evenly to 7 different receivers this past year and they were very productive because of it..

for what it is worth let hope we can indeed get a first and a third for him and allow him to mosey on down the lane..

dogfish
01-12-2010, 01:24 AM
McDaniels said he met with the rookies the day after the season and let them know they aren’t rookies anymore, and more will be asked of them.

“We need to expect them to do some things that maybe we didn’t expect of them this year and they need to expect that of themselves,” McDaniels said.

^^ i approve of this ^^

very much so. . . .

dogfish
01-12-2010, 01:29 AM
It should help for sure, but he's still only targeting a select few, instead of three or four hundred, that's bad news, even if the scouting team has had all season to look at them.

he needs to learn from how belly does it, and not give up so much value moving up half a dozen times. . . this team really needs to build depth, especially while trying to fill out personnel for new schemes on both sides of the ball, and those second day picks are where that typically happens. . .





as for marshall not coming back I heard a blurb out of DALLAS that everyone was saying when they unloaded TO that they were doomed..

in fact it was the best thing that could happen to them instead of TO coming back to the huddle and demanding the ball each time.. they were able to spread the ball almost evenly to 7 different receivers this past year and they were very productive because of it..


dallas also got a ton of unexpected production from miles austin, without which the situation would most likely have looked far different. . . just sayin'. . . i'd take a 1st and 3rd for brandon also, but i don't have high hopes that we'll replace his production very easily. . . we'll see. . .

frauschieze
01-12-2010, 01:36 AM
he needs to learn from how belly does it, and not give up so much value moving up half a dozen times. . . this team really needs to build depth, especially while trying to fill out personnel for new schemes on both sides of the ball, and those second day picks are where that typically happens. . .


BINGO! I don't want McD to feel like he HAS to move up to get "his guy" because he hasn't seen what a bunch of other guys have to offer.

If that makes sense.

Shazam!
01-12-2010, 02:23 AM
Needs

1. Receiver: Even if Brandon Marshall returns, the Broncos need more from their receivers. Denver needs to look long and hard at adding a deep threat.
2. Defensive line: The Broncos’ run defense wore down late in the year. Denver’s 3-4 defense demands top-notch players up front to be successful.
3. Offensive line: Guard Russ Hochstein’s season-ending knee injury makes the line even thinner. Josh McDaniels will want bigger linemen to run a power scheme.
4. Quarterback: Kyle Orton was a stopgap and while serviceable he's not the long term answer. Backup Chris Simms is completely inept.


Edited.

dogfish
01-12-2010, 03:32 AM
Needs

1. Receiver: Even if Brandon Marshall returns, the Broncos need more from their receivers. Denver needs to look long and hard at adding a deep threat-- and at throwing the ball more than twelve yards down the field.
2. Defensive line: The Broncos’ run defense wore down late in the year. Denver’s 3-4 defense demands top-notch players up front to be successful.
3. Offensive line: Guard Russ Hochstein’s season-ending knee injury makes the line even thinner. Josh McDaniels will want bigger linemen to run a power scheme.
4. Quarterback: Kyle Orton was a stopgap and while serviceable he's not the long term answer. Backup Chris Simms is already packing his suitcase.

re-edited. . . . :laugh:

sneakers
01-12-2010, 03:55 AM
Vonnie Holiday needs to be brought back...it seemed he always was doing something good when he was in the game on 3rd downs.

Nomad
01-12-2010, 08:18 AM
^^ i approve of this ^^

very much so. . . .

In other words....no excuses for poor play!!!

missingnumber7
01-12-2010, 09:55 AM
Needs

1. Receiver: Even if Brandon Marshall returns, the Broncos need more from their receivers. Denver needs to look long and hard at adding a deep threat-- and at throwing the ball more than twelve yards down the field.
2. Defensive line: The Broncos’ run defense wore down late in the year. Denver’s 3-4 defense demands top-notch players up front to be successful.
3. Offensive line: Guard Russ Hochstein’s season-ending knee injury makes the line even thinner. Josh McDaniels will want bigger linemen to run a power scheme.
4. Quarterback: Kyle Orton was a stopgap and while serviceable he's not the long term answer. Backup Chris Simms was found begging for a job in Washington.


Edited

TXBRONC
01-12-2010, 10:16 AM
I hope to hell this means there are more than 100 players on his draft board!

Rumor is there will be 101 on this year's draft board. :behindsofa: :D

Seriously though I couldn't agree with you more.

NightTrainLayne
01-12-2010, 10:21 AM
It doesn't, Carol, but last year, after the draft, McD said he only had 100 players on his draft board. All I'm saying is I hope there are 3 times as many this year. Saying the scouting department has had more time to evaluate talent doesn't mean anything towards alleviating that concern of mine.

Dumb question time.

How many players should be on a team's draft board ideally?

32 teams X 7 rounds = 224 picks/players. You've got supplemental picks etc. on top of that, but do you need all 250 on your board?

What do most teams go with? I'm not a draft guru at all and have no idea how many players most teams have on their "board".

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 12:09 PM
Edited.



and again

1. Receiver: Even if Brandon Marshall returns, the Broncos need more from their receivers. Denver needs to look long and hard at adding a deep threat. although the scheme is horizantal rather then vertical and we already have a guy with 4.38 speed virtually unused

2. Defensive line: The Broncos’ run defense wore down late in the year. Denver’s 3-4 defense demands top-notch players up front to be successful. hopefull we dont pass on another impact player like orakpo

3. Offensive line: Guard Russ Hochstein’s season-ending knee injury makes the line even thinner. Josh McDaniels will want bigger linemen to run a power scheme

G_Money
01-12-2010, 12:29 PM
It doesn't, Carol, but last year, after the draft, McD said he only had 100 players on his draft board. All I'm saying is I hope there are 3 times as many this year. Saying the scouting department has had more time to evaluate talent doesn't mean anything towards alleviating that concern of mine.

Zactly. :salute: This is the quote from last year:


On strategy during draft

"I think we were aggressive, if you want to use that term. We didn't have that many players on our board once we were done with the evaluation, and that was the goal. ‘Let's get the players on the board that we want on our team. Let's not have 200 names up there if we don't want 200 guys on our roster.' So, we had a board that was thinned out. (General Manager) Brian (Xanders), and the scouts and the coaches did a great job evaluating the players they had in their areas. And, by the end of the process, our board was thin. We knew we wanted to come away with players on our board and we did, we didn't go to the back board for anybody. At some certain points in the draft, I think you ask yourself ‘If we wait, is he going to be there?' And there were a few times where we felt like there's no way. If we wait, we're not going to be able to attain a player that we'd like to get. We weighed the value of what we were trading to try to go ahead and get the players that we were looking to get. And we have a totally full draft next year, one through seven. So, we didn't give away any rounds next year. We had a couple extra (this year) and we used those to move and get the players in this year's draft."

I don't want any more "We're being smart about not going deep on players" quotes. If there are only a hundred guys that fit your system and they're all gone by round 4, you're doing something wrong. There should always be players to take fliers on who can absolutely succeed in your system, and you should kinda know who they are. It's like a part of the job or something.

No excuses about firing the draft Dept and only having 3 months to prepare this time. I hope to see less reaching for blocking TEs and more thought put into the draft. We need the help.

~G

dogfish
01-12-2010, 12:44 PM
Dumb question time.

How many players should be on a team's draft board ideally?

32 teams X 7 rounds = 224 picks/players. You've got supplemental picks etc. on top of that, but do you need all 250 on your board?

What do most teams go with? I'm not a draft guru at all and have no idea how many players most teams have on their "board".

put it this way. . . when i get ready for a FANTASY FOOTBALL DRAFT, i make sure i have at least as many players on my board as there will be picks in the draft, so i'm not left scrambling at the end-- in fact, i typically have more players ranked because i rank them by position instead of doing one "big board". . .

if that's the preparation i put into a ****ing fantasy football draft just for fun, the guys running our half a billion dollar franchise DAMN WELL better have 250+ names on their board!

:lol:

realistically, they should have 300+ and know exactly who they want as priority free agents should they fall out of the draft. . . historically this team has done very well with late round picks and UDFAs, and if you want to get that kind of impact, you have to scout deep into the class. . . wes woodyard and selvin young are examples of guys who have given us solid production as UDFAs the past few years-- i don't know that any of the UDFAs from mcdaniels/xanders' first draft class even played any snaps for us last year besides tony carter at the very end of the season (although i still have high hopes for chris baker). . .

missingnumber7
01-12-2010, 12:53 PM
realistically, they should have 300+ and know exactly who they want as priority free agents should they fall out of the draft. . . historically this team has done very well with late round and UDFAs, and if you want to get that kind of impact, you have to scout deep into the class. . . wes woodyard and selvin young are examples of guys who have given us solid production as UDFAs the past few years-- i don't know that any of the UDFAs from mcdaniels/xanders' first draft class even played any snaps for us last yea besides tony carter at the very end of the season (although i still have high hopes for chris baker). . .

UDFA's are the guys that make or break teams. Late rounds and UDFA's fill out the depth chart and prior to this past season the Broncos have done decent at getting at least one or 2 players that have been UDFA's that come in and contribute. Woodyard and Kern last year.

G_Money
01-12-2010, 01:07 PM
UDFAs can make or break a team. A successful team like the Vikings seem to be building has decided to rank and scout a bunch of players.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:iCTzTPRhLAMJ:min.scout.com/2/860921.html+number+of+UDFAs+on+NFL+teams&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


Vikings place high emphasis on UDFAs


By Tim Yotter
VikingUpdate.com
Posted Apr 28, 2009

The Vikings are willing to outbid other teams with certain undrafted rookies because they value the potential of the undrafted free agent and realize their contributions on special teams. Who was the big winner this year?

Monday’s moves to sign 14 undrafted free agents won’t grab the headlines (or the contract value) of the Vikings selecting Percy Harvin in the first round, but the payoff for the team’s predraft planning didn’t end when the last pick was called Sunday evening.

With approximately 700 NFL prospects ranked by the team and only five selected in the draft, they had plenty of supplementing they wanted to do with undrafted free agents. Some fans think of those signings as throwaway notes, but you wouldn’t count the scouts and coaches among that group.

Guard Anthony Herrera has been a starter for a few years after being an undrafted free agent in 2004. The value of 2005 undrafted rookie Heath Farwell was front and center last year when the team lost him to a preseason knee injury and the former captain of the special teams saw his teammates struggle to cover kicks and punts. Even Pro Bowl defensive tackle Pat Williams started his NFL career as an undrafted free agent.


So:
Vikings = 700 players ranked for 5 draft picks + UDFA additions.
Broncos = 100 players ranked for twice as many draft picks + UDFA additions.

They might be on the high end, but we were definitely on the low end.

~G

underrated29
01-12-2010, 01:38 PM
put it this way. . . when i get ready for a FANTASY FOOTBALL DRAFT, i make sure i have at least as many players on my board as there will be picks in the draft, so i'm not left scrambling at the end-- in fact, i typically have more players ranked because i rank them by position instead of doing one "big board". . .

if that's the preparation i put into a ****ing fantasy football draft just for fun, the guys running our half a billion dollar franchise DAMN WELL better have 250+ names on their board!

:lol:

realistically, they should have 300+ and know exactly who they want as priority free agents should they fall out of the draft. . . historically this team has done very well with late round picks and UDFAs, and if you want to get that kind of impact, you have to scout deep into the class. . . wes woodyard and selvin young are examples of guys who have given us solid production as UDFAs the past few years-- i don't know that any of the UDFAs from mcdaniels/xanders' first draft class even played any snaps for us last year besides tony carter at the very end of the season (although i still have high hopes for chris baker). . .




For real.... I rate all the players by position, plus 25 more that I think wont get picked but i have my eye on, for each position. Then i rank them all by schedule and team they play for. Then i rank them based on where i project them to get drafted. And then once that is done i come up with my final rankings so i can take the best possible player with the best scenarios at each pick.

Like you said its a ton of freaking work and my payout is only about $1300. Mulit millions/billions on the line and you DO YOUR FREAKING HOMEWORK!!!!

HORSEPOWER 56
01-12-2010, 06:16 PM
Is it just me, or would it make sense if the Broncos just went ahead and re-signed the guys we wanted to keep now instead of waiting to see if a new labor deal will or won't get worked out.

If it does, we're screwed because every one of those guys (Doom, Kuper, etc) will immediately become UFAs and we'll have to fight to bring them back.

Wouldn't it just make more sense to lock them up long term now and not take the risk of them walking?

The fact that we've attempted to re-sign none of these young players to this point and all could be UFAs in a month and a half, tells me that we may not be looking to keep any of them. Really? It's kind of disturbing to think that by the time free agency starts, we may be finishing up dismantling the BEST draft class this team has possibly ever had. Marshall, Scheffler, Kuper, Hillis, Dumervil, - None of these guys are worth keeping? Really? :confused:

underrated29
01-12-2010, 06:24 PM
Its quite possible that we are looking to keep brandon and trade doom for a 1st and 3rd tender. We have seen that josh is ridding of the shanny guys, maybe doom is the one that gets ousted. His value is tops in the league and his types are harder to replace than brandon.....

Just a thought.

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 06:28 PM
Is it just me, or would it make sense if the Broncos just went ahead and re-signed the guys we wanted to keep now instead of waiting to see if a new labor deal will or won't get worked out.

If it does, we're screwed because every one of those guys (Doom, Kuper, etc) will immediately become UFAs and we'll have to fight to bring them back.

Wouldn't it just make more sense to lock them up long term now and not take the risk of them walking?

The fact that we've attempted to re-sign none of these young players to this point and all could be UFAs in a month and a half, tells me that we may not be looking to keep any of them. Really? It's kind of disturbing to think that by the time free agency starts, we may be finishing up dismantling the BEST draft class this team has possibly ever had. Marshall, Scheffler, Kuper, Hillis, Dumervil, - None of these guys are worth keeping? Really? :confused:

you have to put yourself into the mind of a child for the answer

we had close to 40 mill in cap space last year before FA started

we cleared alot of dead cap space this year..there is no reason in the world we cant sign these guys to a deal...unless the coach doesnt want them

for the record..doom has more sacks since he came into the league then guys like
james harrison, freeney, porter, peppers..ya he might be worth signing

HORSEPOWER 56
01-12-2010, 06:40 PM
Its quite possible that we are looking to keep brandon and trade doom for a 1st and 3rd tender. We have seen that josh is ridding of the shanny guys, maybe doom is the one that gets ousted. His value is tops in the league and his types are harder to replace than brandon.....

Just a thought.

I know McDaniels doesn't want Marshall and would probably trade him for a song right now and I've accepted that he probably won't be back. Scheffler, either.

But.... there's absolutely no guarantee that any of those other guys will end up as RFAs that we can tender/trade right now. If a labor deal gets worked out, ALL the guys on that list go bye-bye and we get NOTHING in return, well other than a few compensatory picks which really don't equate in value to a starter. Could you imagine losing Dumervil for nothing more than a 4th round (his original value) compensatory pick (which is really a 5th rounder)?

That sucks my friends.

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
01-12-2010, 06:46 PM
This is a cluster**** of speculation.

Lonestar
01-12-2010, 10:52 PM
Zactly. :salute: This is the quote from last year:



I don't want any more "We're being smart about not going deep on players" quotes. If there are only a hundred guys that fit your system and they're all gone by round 4, you're doing something wrong. There should always be players to take fliers on who can absolutely succeed in your system, and you should kinda know who they are. It's like a part of the job or something.

No excuses about firing the draft Dept and only having 3 months to prepare this time. I hope to see less reaching for blocking TEs and more thought put into the draft. We need the help.

~G


Yet he did say there was no use in drafting someone if there was no way that he could make it through Training camp .. he was not going to draft someone just to draft numbers..

He ia a firm believer in drafting/aquiring players that are his typo of players.

if they are not smart, strong and fast he not not interested in bringing them into camp and wasting time and money on them. which makes a whole lot of sense to me..

perhaps in 3-4 years when we have players two deep at most positions we can take some flyers.. but right now we are really thin at all starting positions with nothing behind the OLINE, in particular. if a starter goes down in almost any spot on this team there is a huge degradation in play.

dogfish
01-12-2010, 11:02 PM
Yet he did say there was no use in drafting someone if there was no way that he could make it through Training camp .. he was not going to draft someone just to draft numbers..

He ia a firm believer in drafting/aquiring players that are his typo of players.

if they are not smart, strong and fast he not not interested in bringing them into camp and wasting time and money on them. which makes a whole lot of sense to me..

perhaps in 3-4 years when we have players two deep at most positions we can take some flyers.. but right now we are really thin at all starting positions with nothing behind the OLINE, in particular. if a starter goes down in almost any spot on this team there is a huge degradation in play.

so we're really thin on talent, but can't find guys in the draft who can compete with the guys we have?

that just plain don't make no sense. . . bottom line, the approach mcD and xanders took to last year's draft was a cluster, and even JMFMCD himself has tacitly admitted as much when he said this year's preparation will be considerably different. . . that whole "we couldn't find any guys who could compete for spots" was nothing more than a bald-faced, bullshit excuse for the fact that they weren't prepared for the draft. . .

Lonestar
01-12-2010, 11:15 PM
so we're really thin on talent, but can't find guys in the draft who can compete with the guys we have?

that just plain don't make no sense. . . bottom line, the approach mcD and xanders took to last year's draft was a cluster, and even JMFMCD himself has tacitly admitted as much when he said this year's preparation will be considerably different. . . that whole "we couldn't find any guys who could compete for spots" was nothing more than a bald-faced, bullshit excuse for the fact that they weren't prepared for the draft. . .

Your correct they were not ready for it like they wanted to be..

the previous regime wanted finese players and that is what the bates were looking for when they were scouting/assessing players.


I suspect when they were asked to go back and re-evaluate I'm guessing that is when the fur balls started.. and then they were fired.
so Josh and X man had to bust their asses to find what they could for their style of players.

FRANKLY I THINK OVERALL THEY DID REAL GOOD WITH THEIR PICKS.. sorry about that this keyboard suck as the caps lock key is where the A should be..

now we will have to see if those picks make it longer than mikes picks did. for the most part none of mikes picks were around for a second contract, excepting one or two. like DJ that was signed to a mega contract that we should try to get out of.. he really does not fit this D like a true MLB would.

Not saying he is not a good LB just others would be better at it. he would fair better as a WLB in a 4-3 maybe mike will trade for him..

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
01-12-2010, 11:43 PM
Dj's contract was restructured for cap space, get your shit right.

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 11:53 PM
Your correct they were not ready for it like they wanted to be..

the previous regime wanted finese players and that is what the bates were looking for when they were scouting/assessing players.


I suspect when they were asked to go back and re-evaluate I'm guessing that is when the fur balls started.. and then they were fired.
so Josh and X man had to bust their asses to find what they could for their style of players.

FRANKLY I THINK OVERALL THEY DID REAL GOOD WITH THEIR PICKS.. sorry about that this keyboard suck as the caps lock key is where the A should be..

now we will have to see if those picks make it longer than mikes picks did. for the most part none of mikes picks were around for a second contract, excepting one or two. like DJ that was signed to a mega contract that we should try to get out of.. he really does not fit this D like a true MLB would.

Not saying he is not a good LB just others would be better at it. he would fair better as a WLB in a 4-3 maybe mike will trade for him..


really??? i dont mind moreno...i like the guy....but when defense was the issue...the big need...we pass on orakpo???? cushing??..matthews,? mauagla...we trade a top 15 pick for smith?...didnt he get beat out by a practice squad player....we paid 2 3rds for quin....did he even play?

we needed a NT in the worst way...we coulda packaged that #1 and moved up for raji

then we wanna cry we need help on defense?

as for dj not fitting the MLB...dude i believe he's playing in the probowl...as a mlb...so yea he's no good

Lonestar
01-12-2010, 11:55 PM
Dj's contract was restructured for cap space, get your shit right.

sorry I did no remember that happening but still he is not a true 3-4 MLB regardless if he is in the prowl or not.

Lonestar
01-13-2010, 12:00 AM
really??? i dont mind moreno...i like the guy....but when defense was the issue...the big need...we pass on orakpo???? cushing??..matthews,? mauagla...we trade a top 15 pick for smith?...didnt he get beat out by a practice squad player....we paid 2 3rds for quin....did he even play?

then we wanna cry we need help on defense?

as for dj not fitting the MLB...dude i believe he's playing in the probowl...as a mlb...so yea he's no good


Yes I liked who we took they were players that fit our schemes.. . yes the others are big names but according to Josh Nolan and him did not think they were the players they wanted.
as for Smith I'll wait to see what he does next next..

not every player drafted starts and plays gonzo day one..

IIRC CB is one of the hardest positions to step in and 'GET IT " day one..

Unlike most of the whiners I'm willing to give our draft choices a chance to develop. before I throw them under the bus.

arapaho2
01-13-2010, 12:12 AM
Yes I liked who we took they were players that fit our schemes.. . yes the others are big names but according to Josh Nolan and him did not think they were the players they wanted.
as for Smith I'll wait to see what he does next next..

not every player drafted starts and plays gonzo day one..

IIRC CB is one of the hardest positions to step in and 'GET IT " day one..

Unlike most of the whiners I'm willing to give our draft choices a chance to develop. before I throw them under the bus.

how does orakpo and his 11 sacks...not fit
cushing and his 133 tkls...4 sacks..4 ints..they dont?
matthews and his 10 sacks dont fit?

yea cbs hard...but i recall our own DW taking command as a rookie

i seen jairus byrd come in as a cb, convert to fs...and make 9 ints
i seen j cox come in have 74 tackles..15 PD..4ints

and our 2nd rnd pick with a 1st rnd price cant even hold the nickle spot

as for throwing players under the bus...too bad our coach didnt feel the same way huh

Lonestar
01-13-2010, 12:17 AM
how does orakpo and his 11 sacks...not fit
cushing and his 133 tkls...4 sacks..4 ints..they dont?
matthews and his 10 sacks dont fit?

yea cbs hard...but i recall our own DW taking command as a rookie

i seen jairus byrd come in as a cb, convert to fs...and make 9 ints
i seen j cox come in have 74 tackles..15 PD..4ints

and our 2nd rnd pick with a 1st rnd price cant even hold the nickle spot

as for throwing players under the bus...too bad our coach didnt feel the same way huh


hey I trust Josh, you don't that is your problem.. not mine..

I could care less what these guys do on other teams.

Josh said he was happy with his picks BECAUSE they fit his scheme and mentality Nolan did not want them let them be superstars somewhere else..

I guess we you and me will have to agree to disagree have a nice evening I'm going to bed..

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 12:21 AM
They fit the scheme TOO well....they were too good to get into the starting lineup. :salute:

Besides, who wants superstars here?

arapaho2
01-13-2010, 12:32 AM
hey I trust Josh, you don't that is your problem.. not mine..

I could care less what these guys do on other teams.

Josh said he was happy with his picks BECAUSE they fit his scheme and mentality Nolan did not want them let them be superstars somewhere else..

I guess we you and me will have to agree to disagree have a nice evening I'm going to bed..


so you dont care that these guys are doing better then any of joshes picks on other teams...yet continue to try and attempt ortons better then our former qb because of what he's doing this year with the bears

i sit back and see our run game did not improve one shred with moreno...and imagine orakpo and doom rushing the passer for the broncos...but yea josh was right and made the right choice:coffee::rolleyes:

Lonestar
01-13-2010, 04:22 AM
so you dont care that these guys are doing better then any of joshes picks on other teams...yet continue to try and attempt ortons better then our former qb because of what he's doing this year with the bears

i sit back and see our run game did not improve one shred with moreno...and imagine orakpo and doom rushing the passer for the broncos...but yea josh was right and made the right choice:coffee::rolleyes:

what do you not get that this was a brand new scheme for upwards of 51 players and every coach except for Josh and Nolan on his squad depending on which side of the LOS they were..

did you actually think that everything would be firing on all cylinders from day one..

did you think they would all be masters at the scheme by the end of the season and the timing would be like a team that has been together for the most part like PIT and NE has been for 5-6 years.

For example Y'all were willing to give jay upwards of three years to learn mikes scheme, even though all the supporting cast around him for the most part was well versed in it.

now you expect this brand new team except for gaffney and jordan (part time player) to be perfect.. even though:


Orton was hampered with a dislocated forefinger on this throwing hand, and then later with a high ankle strain.
the supposed #1 WR that was not with the program at all in TC and IIRC suspended till the first week of Regular season.
the starting ORT lost for the season at the midpoint in the season.
the starting OLG replaced about the same time.


un ******* believable.

No, I do not care that players not suitable for our system are playing better for other teams. The real question is WHY SHOULD YOU?

Is there anything you DO like about the team you support?

SOCALORADO.
01-13-2010, 08:55 AM
Yes I liked who we took they were players that fit our schemes.. . yes the others are big names but according to Josh Nolan and him did not think they were the players they wanted.
as for Smith I'll wait to see what he does next next..

not every player drafted starts and plays gonzo day one..

IIRC CB is one of the hardest positions to step in and 'GET IT " day one..

Unlike most of the whiners I'm willing to give our draft choices a chance to develop. before I throw them under the bus.

I will give them time as well, and i dont have a huge problem with the 1st round yet. Moreno will be fine, and Ayers gets one more year to really develop. The McBath pick was a good one too.
BUT! Alphie and Quinn were HUGE reaches, and never should have been made. The whole trading around in the 2nd round debacle was what i think got alot of fans flustered. And now, they see these 2 as not developing but regressing. Thats a problem.
If your team has that many picks in the top 65 picks, you better make them count.

Superchop 7
01-13-2010, 09:18 AM
It was a poor draft.

But.......for the first time in his career.....Josh took responsibility for something he did.

Out of bad comes good.

arapaho2
01-13-2010, 12:25 PM
what do you not get that this was a brand new scheme for upwards of 51 players and every coach except for Josh and Nolan on his squad depending on which side of the LOS they were..

did you actually think that everything would be firing on all cylinders from day one..


no what i expected to see was the team struggle early...pull together, get comfertable and play as a team showing promise at the end of the season...that would be the case if a new system was a hinderance and every one was learning it

as it was we seen a team play well early...and crumble at the end..thats not learning a new system...thats not just missing the fireing order...thats bad coaching


did you think they would all be masters at the scheme by the end of the season and the timing would be like a team that has been together for the most part like PIT and NE has been for 5-6 years.

you would think that after all otas..minis..camp...training camp...pre season...6-0....the team would have at least a functional knowledge of the scheme...enough to win more then 2 out of the last ten games

cleveland...new coach..new system..started 1-5..broncos 6-0
they finished 4-0...incliding wins of the chiefs, raiders,steelers and jags..we finished what?whats our excuse again?

jets..new coach...new schemes..rookie qb...started 3-3...broncos 6-0

finished 6-4...broncos 2-8...whats our excuse again?


For example Y'all were willing to give jay upwards of three years to learn mikes scheme, even though all the supporting cast around him for the most part was well versed in it.

we were willing to give a ROOKIE QB THREE SEASONS TO LEARN THE NFL GAME... the supporting cast around him was rookie rbs...marshall, royal. scheffler, clady, harris.....in fact there was only two starters on the 08 team that was on the 05 team...i believe there was only 5 starters on the 08 team that was on the 07 team...so no cutler didnt have a team well versed in the system...fail
,


now you expect this brand new team except for gaffney and jordan (part time player) to be perfect.. even though:


Orton was hampered with a dislocated forefinger on this throwing hand, and then later with a high ankle strain.
the supposed #1 WR that was not with the program at all in TC and IIRC suspended till the first week of Regular season.
the starting ORT lost for the season at the midpoint in the season.
the starting OLG replaced about the same time.


orton was saved by the defense....the finger never gave him trouble...6-0 with it...so i dont see how that helped in the 2-8 crash???

and yet came into week one ready to go and still made the probowl and was our most valuable offensive player...go figure?
injury excuses are not exceptable reasons why we sucked

un ******* believable.

No, I do not care that players not suitable for our system are playing better for other teams. The real question is WHY SHOULD YOU?

Is there anything you DO like about the team you support?

why do i care if other players are playing better???...maybe cause we coulda drafted them??? duh...maybe because defense was the issue and seeing the talent we had a chance to draft and wiffed on...hurts?...now we still need that same talent and its our excuse once again

what do i support?...nolan...the defense...marshall...royal...scheffler...clady..th e oline...hillis...nunnely..donnatel...i support the whole damm team

i just wont sugar coat the fact our coach screwed up the draft...FA..our qb position...fell apart..was to egotistical to play better players...has childish conflicts with the star players..throws team players under the bus

claymore
01-13-2010, 12:35 PM
I cant believe people are still defending the Smith pick. Even if he goes to the HOF, it was a stupid ass trade.

G_Money
01-13-2010, 03:02 PM
how does orakpo and his 11 sacks...not fit
cushing and his 133 tkls...4 sacks..4 ints..they dont?
matthews and his 10 sacks dont fit?

yea cbs hard...but i recall our own DW taking command as a rookie

i seen jairus byrd come in as a cb, convert to fs...and make 9 ints
i seen j cox come in have 74 tackles..15 PD..4ints

and our 2nd rnd pick with a 1st rnd price cant even hold the nickle spot

as for throwing players under the bus...too bad our coach didnt feel the same way huh

It's not Matthews and Cushing that are really the issue with the 100 player board - those guys HAD to be among the 100 guys we had on the board - we just liked Ayers better. :coffee:

Which is one reason I blew my stack a bit at the pick of Ayers, because I thought there were better options for a pass-rushing LB and Ayers is too much of a one-year-wonder and a tweener for me. But a year doesn't make or break a pick, and Ayers has time to get better. We REALLY need him to work out, so I certainly hope he gets worlds better.

For me it's things like swapping picks for Quinn because we were getting too thin on our board in the SECOND round, or drafting Bruton while having 2 FA safeties, another young safety already on the roster who resembled Bruton a whole bunch AND having drafted McBath. It smacks of that 3 cornerback draft that Shanahan ran with D-Will, Foxy and Paymah. And drafting Smith when we had JMFW (who we later cut because McDaniels didn't like him, which is why he over-drafted Smith).

As Josh said, that excuse of "not enough prep time" is not valid this year. I really hope he put the time and effort in with the scouts this year to make sure he has plenty of good options into the late rounds and beyond.

We can't afford to let good talent slip through our fingers this year because we were underprepared.

I hope everyone who ever blocked in college has been put under a microscope - the OL needs new blood badly, especially if Kuper goes to a team like the Skins that has deep pockets (tho at some point we need to know what's up with the labor agreement...).

~G

HORSEPOWER 56
01-13-2010, 03:21 PM
What I think is the funniest thing about the last few posts is that JR was always the hardest on Shanahan for his "dafting" as he called it. Now, he has nothing but praise for the new regime no matter how the draft picks turned out.

Pot, this is Kettle...over!

CoachChaz
01-13-2010, 03:58 PM
If one bad draft with little time to prepare for it defines a coach, then why the hell was Shanny here so long?

G_Money
01-13-2010, 04:08 PM
Rings, coach. Rings and regular season wins, for better or worse.

If Josh wins a Super Bowl or two in the next coupla years he'll probably get a lot of leeway with drafting as well.

In the meantime, he just needs to run his draft more professionally this year, and get players who can step up.

The problem with the Shanny comp is that Shanahan's drafts did FINALLY get better. Startlingly better, which helped extend his stay. Drafting what we thought was a good QB, TE, WR, pass rusher, OG, two OTs, etc all as starters and several who became Pro Bowlers makes it more annoying when drafts go strangely now.

After most of a decade of worthless drafts it was nice to see that hole being fixed. With a full year's prep, hopefully it'll be fixed again.

~G

arapaho2
01-13-2010, 04:15 PM
It's not Matthews and Cushing that are really the issue with the 100 player board - those guys HAD to be among the 100 guys we had on the board - we just liked Ayers better. :coffee:

Which is one reason I blew my stack a bit at the pick of Ayers, because I thought there were better options for a pass-rushing LB and Ayers is too much of a one-year-wonder and a tweener for me. But a year doesn't make or break a pick, and Ayers has time to get better. We REALLY need him to work out, so I certainly hope he gets worlds better.

For me it's things like swapping picks for Quinn because we were getting too thin on our board in the SECOND round, or drafting Bruton while having 2 FA safeties, another young safety already on the roster who resembled Bruton a whole bunch AND having drafted McBath. It smacks of that 3 cornerback draft that Shanahan ran with D-Will, Foxy and Paymah. And drafting Smith when we had JMFW (who we later cut because McDaniels didn't like him, which is why he over-drafted Smith).

As Josh said, that excuse of "not enough prep time" is not valid this year. I really hope he put the time and effort in with the scouts this year to make sure he has plenty of good options into the late rounds and beyond.

We can't afford to let good talent slip through our fingers this year because we were underprepared.

I hope everyone who ever blocked in college has been put under a microscope - the OL needs new blood badly, especially if Kuper goes to a team like the Skins that has deep pockets (tho at some point we need to know what's up with the labor agreement...).

~G

its not just ayers...i think he will develop...but there were alot of rbs if mcd thought we really needed one..instead we pass on orakpo...imagine orakpo and doom rushing the passer..and tell me we made the right choice with moreno...and i like moreno



.

arapaho2
01-13-2010, 04:28 PM
If one bad draft with little time to prepare for it defines a coach, then why the hell was Shanny here so long?


how much time does a coach need to decide that when his team was 31st in sacks..32nd in forced turnovers...3oth in scoreing..26th in rush d..27th in pass d...

might need a OLB who was considered the best defensive player in the draft..a player who in no mocks was expected to fall to 12th...over a Rb when we had servicable backs in the stable and a back like wells, brown, greene, mccoy all were drafted later

it doesnt take month to figure that out does it

Lonestar
01-13-2010, 07:58 PM
What I think is the funniest thing about the last few posts is that JR was always the hardest on Shanahan for his "dafting" as he called it. Now, he has nothing but praise for the new regime no matter how the draft picks turned out.

Pot, this is Kettle...over!

how has the picks turned out after their rookie year..

and if you look at mikes drafts just how many of his day one picks got a second contract in DEN from years 1998-2005. IIRC you can count them on 2 fingers.. Wilson and DJ..

Yes I thought most of mikes picks were dafts.. because they rarely made it out of their third TC..

he did have a pretty good draft in 2006 but then how many of them will get a second contract in DEN either..

Lonestar
01-13-2010, 08:02 PM
how much time does a coach need to decide that when his team was 31st in sacks..32nd in forced turnovers...3oth in scoreing..26th in rush d..27th in pass d...

might need a OLB who was considered the best defensive player in the draft..a player who in no mocks was expected to fall to 12th...over a Rb when we had servicable backs in the stable and a back like wells, brown, greene, mccoy all were drafted later

it doesnt take month to figure that out does it

I'll just bet that if you would apply they would make you scouting master in a heart beat..:salute:

dogfish
01-13-2010, 08:30 PM
its not just ayers...i think he will develop...but there were alot of rbs if mcd thought we really needed one..instead we pass on orakpo...imagine orakpo and doom rushing the passer..and tell me we made the right choice with moreno...and i like moreno



.

it's really easy to second guess, and with the season he's having i'm sure we all wish we'd taken orakpo-- but it was a justifiable move at the time. . .

a lot of scouts were leary of orakpo-- there was concern about his durability, and also some sentiment that the guy was more workout warrior than football player. . . and the fact that a lot of high profile athletes from mack brown's program have busted recently probably didn't help him any-- they've had some impressive successes too, but the program has developed a bit of a rep for producing big name prospects who can't cut it at the next level. . . obviously eleven teams before us saw something that made them pass on the guy. . .

also, you can see nolan's stamp all over last year's draft, and he really likes jumbo-sized OLBs-- notice that the FAs we got him were haggan (267 lbs) and reid (285 lbs, now plays in the 270 range). . . with doom probably projected as the long term weakside OLB, they probably decided to pass on orakpo and take the bigger, more durable ayers with an eye towards getting a guy to be the long term starter on the strong side who projected as the more rugged run defender and had the size nolan wanted to bang with TEs in the running game. . .

once they passed on orakpo, moreno and malcolm jenkins were clearly the highest-rated prospects who filled needs. . . and it's not like we had some proven stud tailback on the roster-- RB may not have been the number one priority, but it was definitely a need-- and we'd just brought in a bunch of vets to plug holes on the defensive side, along with a coaching staff to get better results from the talent we already had in place there. . .

now that mcdaniels and xanders have a year under their belts, and the coaching staff has had a year to evaluate the talent on the roster, hopefully we can bring in a draft class that gives us some more immediate impact than last year's class-- which still has a chance to produce some fine players. . . i still expect moreno, ayers and mcbath to develop into quality contributors, and bruton is every bit as good as advertised on special teams. . . i'm as concerned as anyone else about smith and quinn, but all we can do is wait and see-- they were both non-factors, but one season doesn't make a career, and plenty of guys have struggled early and gone on to have plenty of success. . .

Cugel
01-13-2010, 08:45 PM
Is it just me, or would it make sense if the Broncos just went ahead and re-signed the guys we wanted to keep now instead of waiting to see if a new labor deal will or won't get worked out.

If it does, we're screwed because every one of those guys (Doom, Kuper, etc) will immediately become UFAs and we'll have to fight to bring them back.

Wouldn't it just make more sense to lock them up long term now and not take the risk of them walking?

The fact that we've attempted to re-sign none of these young players to this point and all could be UFAs in a month and a half, tells me that we may not be looking to keep any of them. Really? It's kind of disturbing to think that by the time free agency starts, we may be finishing up dismantling the BEST draft class this team has possibly ever had. Marshall, Scheffler, Kuper, Hillis, Dumervil, - None of these guys are worth keeping? Really? :confused:

I'm not confused. :coffee:

McDaniels has a colossal ego when it comes to "his" players. He's going to want to weed out all of the "Shanahan" left-over players that don't "fit his system." When a new coach comes into town one thing they want to do is get rid of all the previous regime's players -- at least the LOSING coaches all seem to do this and McDaniels has "future failure" written in rather large letters as far as I can see.

I'd put Kuper in that number along with LT Ryan Clady who looked all world last year in Shanahan's system, but struggled of late in the new "power blocking system" McHoodie installed. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Denver take an OL in the first or second round if one he really likes were available. Then people would all be saying "WTF -- we have a pro-bowl LT in Clady what's McDaniels doing?" -- well what he would be doing is "remaking the team in his image as if he's going to be around for the next ten years" -- when in fact he'll probably only have time to totally screw things up, deplete the talent bench for YEARS and then get FIRED after another losing season next year. :coffee:

As for Marshall and Sheffler they're gone. McEgo thinks they are "challenging his authority" and like any teen-ager with a chip on his shoulder he can't handle that! Normal adults without a "runt complex" manage to handle such matters by being the "bigger person" and getting immature or "difficult" players to play well within their system.

(Ironically, McDaniels mentor Belichek has several such "troublemakers" on his team -- most notably Randy Moss -- the player with probably the BIGGEST EGO in the entire NFL, and a "me-first" attitude that got him run out of several towns before he wound up in NE. He even ran over a meter-maid who had the unmitigated GALL to write a parking ticket to Mr. "How-dare-you?! Don't-you-know-who-I-AM?!" Notice that Belichek manages to get use out of him without all the drama).

Dumervil would seem to be the one guy they would want to keep from that remarkable class of 2006. I don't know if they're going to do it because he'll command close to a $50 million contract with about $30 million guaranteed if they want to keep him.

My guess is that like Shanahan with the last GOOD Denver pass-rushers --- Bert Berry and Reggie Hayward, Denver will be "shocked" at how much money Dumervil will command in FA and then offer MUCH less $ than other teams and be "surprised" when Doom walks.

That's if the CBA is re-instated. If not then Doom is an RESTRICTED FA, in which case they get a first and a 3rd pick from any team that signs him --- which could happen. Teams are always desperate for pass-rushers and he's the best in the NFL this year.

I think it likely that all these guys will be GONE next year and McHoodie will be bringing in "his" guys to fit "his system." Well, he'll have one year to prove he can find talent to replace the guys he's lost before his ass hits the street! I'm not optimistic. :coffee:

Cugel
01-13-2010, 08:51 PM
I should add that if McDaniels wants to go towards a more traditional power-blocking system then he's going to be competing for good OL with all the OTHER teams that use that system. Shanahan got incredible value by selecting linemen that fit his Zone-blocking system, but who were too small/lite to be a good fit in power running systems. Ben Hamilton (4th round), Chris Kuper (6th round) were perfect examples.

That will make it tougher to find good players. I'm not certain that McDaniels is going to go totally in that direction but it's a real possibility. If so, then getting SEVERAL OL to totally remake the OL would seem a priority.

Superchop 7
01-13-2010, 09:02 PM
Good Post Cug