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arapaho2
01-11-2010, 01:17 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14162800


It's often hard to know whether an NFL coach endorses his quarterback because he believes in him or because he has no alternative.
So, after Josh McDaniels endorsed Kyle Orton as the Broncos' quarterback of the future last week, I mentioned Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Brett Favre as quarterbacks of top playoff seeds this year and asked if he thought Orton was in their class or had a chance to get there.


"The guys you just mentioned, I think, are really elite players," McDaniels said. "I think there's also a level below that where you say, 'These guys all have really good quarterbacks who win games and are very functional and do the things that their team needs them to do to win games and win championships.'
"I mean, if you look at a lot of the Super Bowl winners this past decade, I don't think you would say every one of those was elite when he won it. So I think our quarterback has done a nice job at doing a lot of things that we asked him to do. He can get better and improve, and I'm sure in the second year in the system he will be a better player."


Let's start by examining McDaniels' historical claim about nonelite quarterbacks winning Super Bowls in the last decade. Pretty much every coach without an elite quarterback has made this argument at one time or another.
It is based mainly on two Super Bowls — No. 35, following the 2000 season, and No. 37 two years later. The winning quarterbacks were Trent Dilfer of the Ravens and Brad Johnson of the Buccaneers, nonelite quarterbacks for sure. The other eight Super Bowl winners of the past decade were Tom Brady (three), Ben Roethlisberger (two), Peyton Manning, Eli Manning and Kurt Warner.


McDaniels' contention that some of these quarterbacks weren't considered elite at the time is a fair point, but it renders the distinction between elite and nonelite meaningless. Brady becomes elite for only one or two of his championships, Roethlisberger for only one. So we'll use the knowledge we have now, understanding that the Super Bowl is occasionally a quarterback's coming-out party.
Distinguishing the great quarterbacks from the good ones is a little like the late Potter Stewart's famous assessment of obscenity. You may not be able to define an elite quarterback, but you know him when you see him. Philip Rivers is an elite quarterback, whether or not he wins a Super Bowl. So was Dan Fouts, who never did. Elite quarterbacks make big plays, lots of them. Sometimes, they make magic.


So game managers have won two of the last 10 Super Bowls, or 20 percent. You might conclude that gives you a decent chance with a game manager playing quarterback.
Here's the problem with that reasoning: When you look at the stingiest defenses in the 32 seasons since the NFL went to a 16-game schedule, you'll find that Dilfer's and Johnson's rank first and fourth. In other words, these guys were the beneficiaries of two of the best defenses in modern NFL history.


The 2000 Ravens allowed 10.3 points per game, lowest in the 16-game era. The 2002 Bucs allowed 12.3. So their quarterbacks didn't have to score much to win games.
By contrast, the Broncos' 2009 defense, which was pretty good for much of the year, surrendered 20.3 points per game.


So the history McDaniels pointed to actually shows that if you want to win a Super Bowl with a game manager at quarterback, you'd better also have one of the most dominating defenses of all time. Given how rarely those come along, that seems like a more difficult way to do it.
An elite quarterback may not be absolutely necessary to win a Super Bowl, but it's a common ingredient among the vast majority of NFL champs, including, of course, both Broncos championship teams. For today's Broncos, the question becomes whether Orton can achieve that status as he grows more familiar with McDaniels' offense.


Even if McDaniels drafted a quarterback of the future this year, Orton would likely be the starter next season. And considering the Broncos' many other needs, it seems unlikely McDaniels would devote a high draft pick to a position he thinks is in relatively good hands for the time being.
While Orton has demonstrated an ability to take care of the ball and execute an offense according to plan, he has not yet demonstrated the sort of spontaneous playmaking ability the great ones have. Even the history McDaniels cited suggests rather strongly that the Broncos will need one of those guys if they hope to see the mountaintop again.
Dave Krieger: 303-954-5297, dkrieger@denverpost.com (dkrieger@denverpost.com) or twitter.com/DaveKrieger (http://twitter.com/DaveKrieger)



good points

Ravage!!!
01-11-2010, 01:33 PM
Couldn't agree more....especially since I've been saying the same thing for months and months now.

Its easier to build around a QB than to build a defense to make up for a lack of QB. People keep telling me that defense wins Championships, yet, its the building around the offensive talent that keeps winning them.

GIve me a a stud offense around an elite talent QB, and a defense taht is "just good enough"... and I'll be MORE than happy to watch our team be Super Bowl contenders.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-11-2010, 01:37 PM
This morning I was listening to Mike Ditka on Mike&Mike - in regards to Baltimore, Ditka stated that "defense and the running game win games".

arapaho2
01-11-2010, 01:47 PM
This morning I was listening to Mike Ditka on Mike&Mike - in regards to Baltimore, Ditka stated that "defense and the running game win games".


and yet 5 of the 8 remaining teams have an elite qb...manning, rivers, warner, favre and brees, and the cowboys have no slouch either..and odd are one of these will win the whole thing...go figure

Denver Native (Carol)
01-11-2010, 01:49 PM
and yet 5 of the 8 remaining teams have an elite qb...manning, rivers, warner, favre and brees, and the cowboys have no slouch either..and odd are one of these will win the whole thing...go figure

Well hell you are right - Ditka does NOT know anything about football

Ravage!!!
01-11-2010, 01:54 PM
Well hell you are right - Ditka does NOT know anything about football

BUt at the same time, Ditka had the benefit of having one of the top 2 defenses of all time when he won the Super Bowl.. and could never go back.

arapaho2
01-11-2010, 01:57 PM
Well hell you are right - Ditka does NOT know anything about football


where did i say he didnt?... look... the fact remains...6 of the 8 teams have very very good qbs..the other two have very good defenses.

kinda falls right into the krux of the article doesnt it...its easier to get a elite qb than a alltime great defense

and right now...as it stands...if the jets or ravens win its because of the defense and running game keeping the qb a simple game manager...but the odds are in favor of the elite qb with a solid team winning it again

Lonestar
01-11-2010, 02:11 PM
look folks all of those teams that have won have had pretty fair defenses, perhaps not BAL or TB style but still in the top ten in most categories ..

for the most part we have had stinky defenses for along time.. and while we won a lot of games we failed in the playoffs because we could not stop the other team.

I seem to remember Ben being made into a primer QB by our allowing him to be all world on 3rd and long in 2005 playoff game where their defense kicked our OLINE ass all day..

Offense does indeed win games but defense wins championships is a truism always has been..

now that does not mean a game manager has to have an elite defense just has to have a good one that can make a turn over from time to time and allow the Offense time to make plays.. give the O decent field position..

something we have lacked for a long time.

yes sure many years our D was top 5 in either pass or running game yards. but each of those years we were great at stopping the run our pass defense stunk and why run the ball if they can pass all day or vice versa. it has been along time where both sides of the defense have both been top 15 let alone top 5 or 10 for that matter.

Ravage!!!
01-11-2010, 02:25 PM
I don't believe 'defense wins championships'....

We didn't win our Super Bowls with defense. We won it with offense, and a defense that was 'good enough.' Manning didn't win his Super Bowl on defense. The Steeler last year, absolutely did NO win the Super Bowl on defense. Even the Patriots were not a defense led team. Their offense dictated the game, thus gave their defense advantages. Which is what GOOD offenses do. They put you up, and give your defense a chance to rush the passer.

silkamilkamonico
01-11-2010, 02:36 PM
and yet 5 of the 8 remaining teams have an elite qb...manning, rivers, warner, favre and brees, and the cowboys have no slouch either..and odd are one of these will win the whole thing...go figure

5? And that doesn't include guys like Brady, Mcnabb, Roethlesberger, EManning, and ARodgers.

That's almost a third of the QB's in the NFL.

Another thing this article doesn't say is how easy it is in this day and age to find an "elite" QB as well.

Lonestar
01-11-2010, 02:58 PM
5? And that doesn't include guys like Brady, Mcnabb, Roethlesberger, EManning, and ARodgers.

That's almost a third of the QB's in the NFL.

Another thing this article doesn't say is how easy it is in this day and age to find an "elite" QB as well.


I also would bet that the Olines on those ALL of teams also still in the playoffs did not stink it up like ours did this past year.


You might indeed have a near elite guy in orton but if not given any run support or time to throw we will never know..

HORSEPOWER 56
01-11-2010, 03:04 PM
I also would bet that the Olines on those ALL of teams also still in the playoffs did not stink it up like ours did this past year.


You might indeed have a near elite guy in orton but if not given any run support or time to throw we will never know..

C'mon Jr. I've seen Orton throw bad passes on BUBBLE SCREENS and gimme curl routes. There's nothing about Orton that says anything "elite" other than maybe his attitude.

Some folks need to face facts that Orton has probably the WORST skill set of any starting QB in the NFL. He's inaccurate and immobile. That's a terrible combination. The only thing that could make him worse would be if he was a poor decision maker like Jake Delhomme. Actually, that would make him Jake Delhomme.

Ravage!!!
01-11-2010, 03:08 PM
The cardinals and the GB OL is not good. Nor was SD's for most of the season due to their injuries. Not to mention Dallas' offensive line looked pathetic early on.

What I don't understand is how its "easy" to find an elite QB, yet only 1/3 of the NFL has one. How many NFL teams have an elite defense?

Either way... if its easier to find an Elite QB.. then we need to go out and find one and build around him bfore we can ever be a contender each and every year. Even the teams that won Super Bowls with their elite defenses, never went back.

Look at what the Cardinals offense did to a defense that was considered to be STOUT.. and a team many said that "no one" wanted to play because of their defensive backfield and LBs??

silkamilkamonico
01-11-2010, 03:48 PM
A part of what I think makes an elite QB is someone who can make things happen when the oline breaks down, aka Aaron Rodgers..

Guys like Warner and Brees make quick enough decisions where the oline isn't necesarily a huge factor.

Rivers does a great job of manipulating the pocket to buy himself some extra time.

When Orton's oline breaks down, he just sucks. I do not think Orton is an elite Qb by any stretch of the imagination.

If you're going to go with a guy like Orton, that's fine. But you better have solid if not spectacular play from all 5-6 blockers, and I think that's asking a lot.

Like what's been stated, a great defense will always break down a great offense, and it starts at the LOS.

FanInAZ
01-11-2010, 03:55 PM
If defense win SBs, then why did "Buddy" Ryan (father of Jets HC, Rex Ryan) never win a SB as a HC. In fact, he never won a play-off game in the 4 years that he was the Eagles HC. Later, he failed reached the play-offs in the 2 seasons that he was the Cards HC. This in spite of the fact that his defense were always among the league's elite? Let me illustrate the pattern of destruction that the Cards went through week after week, especially in Ryan's last season as their HC.

The Cards defense would shut down the opposing offences for the first 2 1/2 quarters while their offence did nothing. As a result, the Cards defense stayed on the field for nearly 40 minutes a game. By the middle of the 3rd quarter, the defense that was not getting ample time to rest between series would start to crack allowing the opposing offenses to start driving the ball more effectively. By the 4th quarter, their defense would collapse and the opposing offenses to drive the ball at will.

Why did this keep happening week after week, because Ryan took the concept of defense win games to an absolute extreme. He had utter contempt for the concept of offenses altogether. Not just for his opponents offense, but for his own offense as well. All that Ryan want his offense to do is not turn the ball over, and they were very good at that. What they were not good at doing was moving the chains and scoring TDs.

When you look at teams that have won SBs, their maybe only 2 that you could say won it with just their defenses: the Ravens and maybe the Bucs. All of the rest were at the very least proficient on both sides of the ball. Both their offense and defenses that could step up and make the plays that need to be made when the game was on the line.

e-Lou-sive1
01-11-2010, 04:01 PM
Our defense was doing great when we were undefeated and Klye Orton had only one interception was is part of the key to us allowing few points per game.After the bye -week Mc D allowed Orton to throw further down the field which was a coin toss on who would end up with it.Mc D was constantly in Orton's face on the sideline chewing him out for throwing the ball away or assuming the fetal position before anyone touched him the backfield.The defense found themselves on the field longer because of ill-thrown passes yet allowing other teams offenses to wear them down.Some of these elite Qbs have achieved early success because of a stingy Patriots defense,an overly Physical Ravens defense and Opportunistic Charger defense but at the same time their Qb's have a knack for finding open recievers and reading defenses.They get rid of the ball quick and look for short yardage screens heavily relying on the running backs to be open these plays have always killed our defense pickin them apart with small pasess until a big one developed.If Orton is the answer than how long of contract do you give him and do you make it optional based on his performance?.Statistically Orton is probably better than average Qb but then again he struggled badly in the redzone of course you could blame anybody else but it should be the Qb's responsiblity to have the right personnal on the field.If I were to evaluate him I would give him a C+ only because he did a little bit more than I expected finishing the season at 8-8.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-11-2010, 04:06 PM
There are many arguments, regardless which position someone takes. Dan Marino = elite quarterback = never won a SB

FanInAZ
01-11-2010, 04:09 PM
There are many arguments, regardless which position someone takes. Dan Marino = elite quarterback = never won a SB

Dan Fouts = elite QB = never went to a SB

roomemp
01-11-2010, 04:19 PM
I don't believe 'defense wins championships'....

We didn't win our Super Bowls with defense. We won it with offense, and a defense that was 'good enough.' Manning didn't win his Super Bowl on defense. The Steeler last year, absolutely did NO win the Super Bowl on defense. Even the Patriots were not a defense led team. Their offense dictated the game, thus gave their defense advantages. Which is what GOOD offenses do. They put you up, and give your defense a chance to rush the passer.


Our defense in the late 90's during our Super Bowl runs were not just "Good enough" They made many upon many key plays.....Especially during the playoffs and the Super Bowl. Our defense was what put us over the top especially during the 97-98 season. Our D didn't get enough credit. See Super Bowl 32

I believe it is the other way around as to who dictates a game. The defense dictates whether the other team can move the ball or score. Defenses also create (for the most part) field position. A great defense will always beat a great offense.

The Glue Factory
01-11-2010, 04:51 PM
Even the teams that won Super Bowls with their elite defenses, never went back.

At least not after the 70's. Rules so heavily favors scoring that the old way to play football (prior to 1980) just doesn't fit anymore. Back then there was a lot more running going on and defenses played a much bigger part in winning.

topscribe
01-11-2010, 05:05 PM
C'mon Jr. I've seen Orton throw bad passes on BUBBLE SCREENS and gimme curl routes. There's nothing about Orton that says anything "elite" other than maybe his attitude.

Some folks need to face facts that Orton has probably the WORST skill set of any starting QB in the NFL. He's inaccurate and immobile. That's a terrible combination. The only thing that could make him worse would be if he was a poor decision maker like Jake Delhomme. Actually, that would make him Jake Delhomme.

I do wish you would argue with facts, if you're going to argue.

Orton did not accumulate a 62.1% comp by being inaccurate.

And, of course, you absolutely omitted Kyle's high ankle sprain when talking
about his immobility. He seemed somewhat recovered from that sprain in the
final game against KC. Did you see that? I saw a lot of mobility there . . .



A part of what I think makes an elite QB is someone who can make things happen when the oline breaks down, aka Aaron Rodgers..

Guys like Warner and Brees make quick enough decisions where the oline isn't necesarily a huge factor.

Rivers does a great job of manipulating the pocket to buy himself some extra time.

When Orton's oline breaks down, he just sucks. I do not think Orton is an elite Qb by any stretch of the imagination.

If you're going to go with a guy like Orton, that's fine. But you better have solid if not spectacular play from all 5-6 blockers, and I think that's asking a lot.

Like what's been stated, a great defense will always break down a great offense, and it starts at the LOS.

When anybody's protection breaks down, he "sucks." Manning, Brady, Favre . .
alllllllllll QBs depend on protection. That is why teams try to provide it.

-----

silkamilkamonico
01-11-2010, 05:15 PM
When anybody's protection breaks down, he "sucks." Manning, Brady, Favre . .
alllllllllll QBs depend on protection. That is why teams try to provide it.

-----

Tell that to Aaron Rodgers.

Also, there are ways of beating pass protection that breaks down, or can't hold up. I've already pointed that out with Kurt Warner and Drew Brees. See Philip Rivers, his protection has been horrible this year. But then again, he understands how to use the pocket to his advantage.

What does Kyle Orton do when his protection breaks? He falls down. Literally.

There's a reason why analysts and scouts do not place Kyle Orton with upper echelon of QB's (say, top 10). Let's not sit here and pretend we know different.

Northman
01-11-2010, 05:17 PM
5? And that doesn't include guys like Brady, Mcnabb, Roethlesberger, EManning, and ARodgers.

That's almost a third of the QB's in the NFL.

Another thing this article doesn't say is how easy it is in this day and age to find an "elite" QB as well.

And there you go. Thats what no one will talk about. I dont disagree with the article at all. The guy is on point about having an Elite QB 90% of time will win championships. But, and i know of certain individuals in this thread are going to pout and stomp their feet in disagreement but we didnt have an Elite QB here in Cutler either. A lot of things those Qb's listed in that article can carry teams to victory with even subpar talent and they all have a certain type of magic. (except for Eli and Warner who i personally dont consider elite QB's.) Something the Jay Cutler does not have at this moment and most likely never will considering he has had the opportunity to show it. So, as many of us have pointed out for months and months is that Orton is a stop gap until we can find that elite talent. But until that happens Orton will have to suffice until that day comes.

dogfish
01-11-2010, 05:18 PM
so having a stud quarterback is better than not having one?

whoa, who'da thunk it??

:noidea:


i can't believe kreiger had the nads to ask JMFMCD if orton is on a level with the likes of brees and manning-- what a shitty, loaded question. . . josh should have asked kreiger how his writing compares to hemmingway-- and then knocked his teeth down his throat! what the hell is the guy supposed to say?


of course, kreiger doesn't exactly put forth any solutions as to where we're going to get this elite quarterback-- i don't think brees or manning are available, and you can't just walk up to the podium on draft day and hand the commish a card saying "elite quarterback". . . .

topscribe
01-11-2010, 05:22 PM
Tell that to Aaron Rodgers.

Also, there are ways of beating pass protection that breaks down, or can't hold up. I've already pointed that out with Kurt Warner and Drew Brees. See Philip Rivers, his protection has been horrible this year. But then again, he understands how to use the pocket to his advantage.

What does Kyle Orton do when his protection breaks? He falls down. Literally.

There's a reason why analysts and scouts do not place Kyle Orton with upper echelon of QB's (say, top 10). Let's not sit here and pretend we know different.

No, tell that to Manning and Brady. Didn't you see the second half of Denver's
Indy game? Did you not see NE's playoff game?

Guess not.

And how much "falling down" did Orton do in the KC game? He scrambled to
the right. He scrambled to the left. He ran for a first down on third-and-long.
He spun out of a defender's grasp, then spun out of another defender's grasp,
again, on the same play.

Way to "fall down," Kyle . . . :coffee:


And please, if you are going to cite other sources around the league, let's
have some documentation here. It's very easy to tell us what others are
saying without providing the source.

-----

topscribe
01-11-2010, 05:23 PM
so having a stud quarterback is better than not having one?

whoa, who'da thunk it??

:noidea:


i can't believe kreiger had the nads to ask JMFMCD if orton is on a level with the likes of brees and manning-- what a shitty, loaded question. . . josh should have asked kreiger how his writing compares to hemmingway-- and then knocked his teeth down his throat! what the hell is the guy supposed to say?


of course, kreiger doesn't exactly put forth any solutions as to where we're going to get this elite quarterback-- i don't think brees or manning are available, and you can't just walk up to the podium on draft day and hand the commish a card saying "elite quarterback". . . .

No surprise . . . considering Krieger . . .

-----

Northman
01-11-2010, 05:23 PM
Our defense in the late 90's during our Super Bowl runs were not just "Good enough" They made many upon many key plays.....Especially during the playoffs and the Super Bowl. Our defense was what put us over the top especially during the 97-98 season. Our D didn't get enough credit. See Super Bowl 32

I believe it is the other way around as to who dictates a game. The defense dictates whether the other team can move the ball or score. Defenses also create (for the most part) field position. A great defense will always beat a great offense.

Although i agree that our defense doesnt get enough credit lets also remember that it was mainly due to the blitz packages that Grob was using at the time. Once teams figured him out down the road it wasnt hard to beat us. Same thing happened to him in KC. You can essentially win the SB a couple of ways. You can have the all world defense and a mediocre to average QB. Or you can have an Elite QB with a middle to good defense which is what we had in the late 90's. Dont kid yourself, our defense back then had some issues but Grob for the most part was able to keep teams guessing back then which benefitted with a offense that we had that averaged 35 points a game. If Denver had even managed to average 30 points a game this year we would of been a lot better.

G_Money
01-11-2010, 05:28 PM
From a previous post on the subject from around the time of the Cutler trade:


Yeah, but the odds are against the limited-talent QBs.

Again, Super Bowl winning QBs the quarter-century:


Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - SB XIX - HOF
Jim McMahon, Chicago Bears - SB XX potential greatest defense of all time
Phil Simms, New York Giants - SB XXI great defense, HOF head coach
Doug Williams, Washington Redskins - SB XXII great defense, HOF head coach
Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIII - HOF
Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIV - HOF
Jeff Hostetler, New York Giants - SB XXV great defense, HOF head coach
Mark Rypien, Washington Redskins - SB XXVI great defense, HOF head coach
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXVII - HOF
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXVIII - HOF
Steve Young, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIX - HOF
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXX - HOF
Brett Favre, Green Bay Packers - SB XXXI - HOF
John Elway, Denver Broncos - SB XXXII - HOF
John Elway, Denver Broncos - SB XXXIII - HOF
Kurt Warner, St. Louis Rams - SB XXXIV - HOF candidate and multiple league MVP
Trent Dilfer, Baltimore Ravens - SB XXXV potential greatest defense of all time
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXVI - HOF candidate
Brad Johnson, Tampa Bay Buccaneers - SB XXXVII incredible defense
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXVIII - HOF candidate
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXIX - HOF candidate
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers - SB XL - Incredible defense, building HOF resume
Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts - SB XLI - HOF candidate
Eli Manning, New York Giants - SB XLII - Incredible defense, #1 draft pick
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers - SB XLIII - Incredible defense, building HOF resume

Of the last 25 world champions, the ones that won without great QBs:

McMahon's Bears - had potentially the greatest defense ever
Simms' and Hostetler's Giants - HOF head coach, Top-2 defense both years.
Williams' and Rypien's Redskins - HOF head coach, #6 scoring D in 87, top 3 in yards and points in 91.
Dilfer's Ravens - had potentially the greatest defense ever
Johnson's Bucs - Best defense in the league in every category, pretty much
Manning's Giants - the one argument on here for a team coming together - gelling, if you will - at the right time and making the most out of a decent team.

So...only 33% of the SB champs of the last quarter century did not have a HOF (or HOF-candidate) QB as their leader.

All of those - ALL - had absolutely world-class defenses, in many cases all-time defenses, except for the 2007 Giants (and maybe the 87 Skins). The Giants and Skins defenses became world-beaters in the playoffs though, and those championships came on the backs of some phenomenal defensive playoff performances.

Nothing on this list says a HOF QB will win you a title without a defense - those Cowboys teams, Niners teams, Pats teams, Steelers teams all ALSO had outstanding defenses. As Coach pointed out, the Foutses and Kellys of the world didn't get that ultimate ring, no matter how good they were.

But if you're gonna try to win a title without a great QB, then you'd better have a Top-2 defense and preferrably a HOF coach while you're at it.

There's no rule that says Cutler has to be our potentially-great QB, or even that he can be.

But if he isn't, we'd better find one, or we're going into the teeth of long odds, because the only thing harder to find around here than a replacement for our HOF QB has been a great defense. :rolleyes:


Nothing's changed. Because Orton is our QB, I think we'll need a great D and some luck. There are worse places to be. Orton absolutely cannot win it with an average D, IMO. Just can't.

So put the effort into the D if we're gonna run with Orton at quarterback. Once we've got the D in place and we've tickled the nose of the playoffs a little more often we can try to replace Orton and take our shot at the brass ring.

But based on past history, keeping Orton at QB and trying to win a championship with him basically says either a) McDaniels believes Orton is gonna become Brady or b) we're gonna have the greatest defense Denver has ever seen to bring home the trophy.

Because option c) ("we're not really trying to win big right now, just make the playoffs and get some extra years here, and we don't have a better option than Orton to do that with at the moment") is far too realistic an option to be taken seriously. ;)

~G

silkamilkamonico
01-11-2010, 05:28 PM
No, tell that to Manning and Brady. Didn't you see the second half of Denver's
Indy game? Did you not see NE's playoff game?

Guess not.

And how much "falling down" did Orton do in the KC game? He scrambled to
the right. He scrambled to the left. He ran for a first down on third-and-long.
He spun out of a defender's grasp, then spun out of another defender's grasp,
again, on the same play.

Way to "fall down," Kyle . . . :coffee:

-----

Sorry. Manning and Brady have enough accolades next to their name to excuse a handful of bad games. Kyle Orton does not. The ironic thing about your argument is your using a couple games to make your case against Brady (a playoff game) and Manning, and a game against a bottom dwelling NFL team (Chiefs) to make your case for Orton. Nevermind Manning and Brady's illustrious career, and Orton's mere average.

Come and argue your point when Orton actually wins a playoff game, and I might bump him up into the "merely above average" QB of NFL QB's.

What does Kyle Orton, Jason Campbell, and Jake Delhomme all have in common? A top 10 defense, and no playoff appearance. I'm sensing a trend here.

FanInAZ
01-11-2010, 05:30 PM
I do wish you would argue with facts, if you're going to argue.

Orton did not accumulate a 62.1% comp by being inaccurate.

And, of course, you absolutely omitted Kyle's high ankle sprain when talking
about his immobility. He seemed somewhat recovered from that sprain in the
final game against KC. Did you see that? I saw a lot of mobility there . . .




When anybody's protection breaks down, he "sucks." Manning, Brady, Favre . .
alllllllllll QBs depend on protection. That is why teams try to provide it.

-----

And that is also why defenses try to break down the QB's protection. I really do get annoyed by commentators who make say, "this team figured out that the way you stop this QB is to pressure them into making bad decisions." Oh really, how does that make that QB any different from any other QB. Its Football 101. The question posed to DCs each week is not should they pressure their opponent's QB, its how do they succeed at getting to him as fast as possible without leaving his receivers wide open for quick and easy strikes.

Ravage!!!
01-11-2010, 05:32 PM
Our defense in the late 90's during our Super Bowl runs were not just "Good enough" They made many upon many key plays.....Especially during the playoffs and the Super Bowl. Our defense was what put us over the top especially during the 97-98 season. Our D didn't get enough credit. See Super Bowl 32

I believe it is the other way around as to who dictates a game. The defense dictates whether the other team can move the ball or score. Defenses also create (for the most part) field position. A great defense will always beat a great offense.

Making a key play doesn't make you a defense that is relied upon. But when your offense dictates the game, like our offense did during those years, its SOOOO much easier on the Defense.

We generally were always in the lead from the first drive on. Look how that helped out Plummer. We would score in the opening drive, and from that pont forward, were able to then run the ball... then the bootleg.. then the play action... because the LEAD gave us the luxury of not playing catch up from early on.

If a great defense will always beat a great offense, how is it we see SOOOOOO few great defenses?? Then... we saw a VERY VERY good defense in the Bears go against a VERY good offense in the Colts.. who won that Super Bowl?

The '85 Bears were going against the NE Patriots and a rookie QB...

The 2000 Ravens, faced Kerry Collins and ANOTHER defensive team in the Giants.

The Bucs, faced a dink-n-dunk offense in the Raiders.

The Ravens have had VERY VERY good defenses for a decade now... but they haven't had an offense to score and keep up when they face an offense that scores.

topscribe
01-11-2010, 05:35 PM
Sorry. Manning and Brady have enough accolades next to their name to excuse a handful of bad games. Kyle Orton does not. The ironic thing about your argument is your using a couple games to make your case against Brady (a playoff game) and Manning, and a game against a bottom dwelling NFL team (Chiefs) to make your case for Orton. Nevermind Manning and Brady's illustrious career, and Orton's mere average.

Come and argue your point when Orton actually wins a playoff game, and I might bump him up into the "merely above average" QB of NFL QB's.

What does Kyle Orton, Jason Campbell, and Jake Delhomme all have in common? A top 10 defense, and no playoff appearance. I'm sensing a trend here.

Sorry. But I am stating facts. Forget accolades. I have watched Manning and
Brady . . . a lot. And when the pressure is heavy, they lose their effectiveness.
That is why defenses rush the passer. You and I have heard that the best
pass defense is a heavy pass rush. Oh my, do you think there may be
something behind that reasoning?

And where did you get the idea that the Broncos have a "top ten" defense?
Sure, they were a splendid #3 in in yards against passing. But you glossed
over the fact they were #26 against the run. Before you make lofty claims of
a "top ten defense," you need to consider both the pass and the run.

-----

Ravage!!!
01-11-2010, 05:39 PM
At the same time, what they are saying is that some QBs don't handle the blitz well, while guys like Manning, Brady, Warner.. Brees...Rivers........... passing % goes up when being blitzed because they can identify it, shift the protection, and find the 1n-1 coverage because of the blitz. OThers don't. Some handle inside pressure better, and some can't handle the pressure around the corners.

LoyalSoldier
01-11-2010, 05:39 PM
It isn't that you need any one positon or anyone side of the ball to be amazing. The sum of the parts of a team needs to be above a certain level in order to win. That being said, all parts are not weighted equally. A great QB is the single biggest addition any team can make. A QB can bring you back in games, make clutch drives, and open up the running game.

There is more than one way to add numbers to reach the number 5

5
4+1
3+2
3+1+1
2+2+1
2+1+1+1+1
1+1+1+1+1

So on so forth. You can add to five using only 1's, but adding 4 means there is less you need on the other side.

Ravage!!!
01-11-2010, 05:42 PM
Thats not facts. Thats stating an observation with opinion. The facts are given aren't facts, but mere beliefs on what you see. Thats not a fact.

arapaho2
01-11-2010, 05:43 PM
I do wish you would argue with facts, if you're going to argue.

Orton did not accumulate a 62.1% comp by being inaccurate.

And, of course, you absolutely omitted Kyle's high ankle sprain when talking
about his immobility. He seemed somewhat recovered from that sprain in the
final game against KC. Did you see that? I saw a lot of mobility there . . .




When anybody's protection breaks down, he "sucks." Manning, Brady, Favre . .
alllllllllll QBs depend on protection. That is why teams try to provide it.

-----


sure he was accurate..out to ten yards..beyond that it was iffy at best
sugar coat it any way you want top...orton was 75.2% within ten yards...but dropped to 43.% between 11-20 yards

and top orton was immobile whether injured or not...mobility is not his M.O

and whats that mobility get us...wasnt it him just avoiding a tackle...so he could chuck it into the dirt? at a wrs feet

arapaho2
01-11-2010, 05:47 PM
Sorry. But I am stating facts. Forget accolades. I have watched Manning and
Brady . . . a lot. And when the pressure is heavy, they lose their effectiveness.
That is why defenses rush the passer. You and I have heard that the best
pass defense is a heavy pass rush. Oh my, do you think there may be
something behind that reasoning?

And where did you get the idea that the Broncos have a "top ten" defense?
Sure, they were a splendid #3 in in yards against passing. But you glossed
over the fact they were #26 against the run. Before you make lofty claims of
a "top ten defense," you need to consider both the pass and the run.

-----
top the broncos were # overall defense...according to the league...i know you consider yourself more knowledgable then the league itself...but i'll go with what the league states..#7 overall defense

i think that means ...top 10 :listen:

Denver Native (Carol)
01-11-2010, 05:49 PM
sure he was accurate..out to ten yards..beyond that it was iffy at best
sugar coat it any way you want top...orton was 75.2% within ten yards...but dropped to 43.% between 11-20 yards

and top orton was immobile whether injured or not...mobility is not his M.O

and whats that mobility get us...wasnt it him just avoiding a tackle...so he could chuck it into the dirt? at a wrs feet

http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.ph...4&storyID=9758


KEY NOTES FROM THE BRONCOS' 2009 SEASON

* - Kyle Orton set a Broncos record for most passing yards by a player in his first year with the club, posting a career-high 3,802 yards that ranked sixth in team history. Only Minnesota’s Brett Favre threw for more yards among quarterbacks in their first year with a team this year.

* - Orton set personal bests in nearly every passing category. His 10 games with a 90.0 passer rating tied for fifth in the NFL while tying for the most in a season in Broncos history.

FanInAZ
01-11-2010, 05:52 PM
Thats not facts. Thats stating an observation with opinion. The facts are given aren't facts, but mere beliefs on what you see. Thats not a fact.

His observation is grounded in universal wisdom that can be applied in all area's of life. Such wisdom can help you understand the facts presented to you in order that can help you make better decisions. I know, I'm probably getting more philosophical then you care for. However, I just couldn't help myself. I know the benefits of such wisdom in my own life, so I just had to stick up for someone who is being unfairly criticized for applying an aspect of wisdom to this situation.

arapaho2
01-11-2010, 05:54 PM
inn the end for me

orton doesnt have it....

by elways 5th season...you knew he had ..it

by marinos..5th season...you knew he had ..it

by bradys

by mannings

by rivers 5th...you can see they got..it

all the greats have it..whats it?...dont know...you just know they got ...it

sure if we build a superb defense...add a bunch of 350 pound men up front to give him time to throw those 4 yard passes...find a way to run the ball...we may win it all with orton...but thats alot of ifs

i would rather find that qb....that young qb that you see a glimmer of greatness in very early...build around him

silkamilkamonico
01-11-2010, 05:57 PM
Sorry. But I am stating facts. Forget accolades. I have watched Manning and
Brady . . . a lot. And when the pressure is heavy, they lose their effectiveness.
That is why defenses rush the passer. You and I have heard that the best
pass defense is a heavy pass rush. Oh my, do you think there may be
something behind that reasoning?

So then what's your excuse for Aaron Rodgers? Or are you saying he'[s better QB than Manning and Brady under pressure?

You know what Ben Roethlesberger did with arguably the worst line in the NFL last year? He won the SuperBowl.

Also, who's job is it to point out blitzes and coverages? The QB's. Maybe you're saaying Kyle Orton isn't very good at that. If you are, you couldn't be more right.


And where did you get the idea that the Broncos have a "top ten" defense?
Sure, they were a splendid #3 in in yards against passing. But you glossed
over the fact they were #26 against the run. Before you make lofty claims of
a "top ten defense," you need to consider both the pass and the run.

-----

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2009&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-n=1

Denver Broncos #7

I don't need to make any claims. It's a "fact".

Your argument of Denver not really being top 10 because of thir defense is like saying San Diego doesn't have an above average offense because their dead last in rushing, even though they rank 10th overall in yards per game. Nobody in their right mind is going to say that.

arapaho2
01-11-2010, 05:57 PM
http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.ph...4&storyID=9758


KEY NOTES FROM THE BRONCOS' 2009 SEASON

* - Kyle Orton set a Broncos record for most passing yards by a player in his first year with the club, posting a career-high 3,802 yards that ranked sixth in team history. Only Minnesota’s Brett Favre threw for more yards among quarterbacks in their first year with a team this year.

* - Orton set personal bests in nearly every passing category. His 10 games with a 90.0 passer rating tied for fifth in the NFL while tying for the most in a season in Broncos history.


207 of his 336 completions were within 10 yards..fact

propaganda aimed at settleing the unrest of a losing season doesnt fix it

silkamilkamonico
01-11-2010, 05:59 PM
i would rather find that qb....that young qb that you see a glimmer of greatness in very early...build around him

Much easier trying to find that difference making QB (considering there are roughly 10, maybe even more in the NFL today), then trying to get an average QB and bank your entire success on no injuries whatsoever on a stable unit around the QB.

topscribe
01-11-2010, 06:02 PM
sure he was accurate..out to ten yards..beyond that it was iffy at best
sugar coat it any way you want top...orton was 75.2% within ten yards...but dropped to 43.% between 11-20 yards

and top orton was immobile whether injured or not...mobility is not his M.O

and whats that mobility get us...wasnt it him just avoiding a tackle...so he could chuck it into the dirt? at a wrs feet


So then what's your excuse for Aaron Rodgers? Or are you saying he'[s better QB than Manning and Brady under pressure?

You know what Ben Roethlesberger did with arguably the worst line in the NFL last year? He won the SuperBowl.

Also, who's job is it to point out blitzes and coverages? The QB's. Maybe you're saaying Kyle Orton isn't very good at that. If you are, you couldn't be more right.


http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2009&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-n=1

Denver Broncos #7

I don't need to make any claims. It's a "fact".

Your argument of Denver not really being top 10 because of thir defense is like saying San Diego doesn't have an above average defense because their dead last in rushing, even though they rank 10th overall in yards per game. Nobody in their right mind is going to say that.

Okay, you guys. I've run out of the few minutes I had to come over and
harass you. Gotta get back to work now. So I'm gonna hafta agree to disagree.

Talk atcha later, buddies. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

arapaho2
01-11-2010, 06:04 PM
Okay, you guys. I've run out of the few minutes I had to come over and
harass you. Gotta get back to work now. So I'm gonna hafta agree to disagree.

Talk atcha later, buddies. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----


hey top ..no need to get beat an run..stay a while:D

Ravage!!!
01-11-2010, 06:09 PM
His observation is grounded in universal wisdom that can be applied in all area's of life. Such wisdom can help you understand the facts presented to you in order that can help you make better decisions. I know, I'm probably getting more philosophical then you care for. However, I just couldn't help myself. I know the benefits of such wisdom in my own life, so I just had to stick up for someone who is being unfairly criticized for applying an aspect of wisdom to this situation.

All of which may be, and I understand what you are saying, but that doesn't make it 'fact.' If one is preaching to use fact, they can't say that their opinion... no matter how many years it has behind it..... is fact.

We may also disagree with as to what we consider 'wisdom,' considering the opinion being formed with such wisdom. :boink:

Denver Native (Carol)
01-11-2010, 06:20 PM
inn the end for me

orton doesnt have it....

by elways 5th season...you knew he had ..it

by marinos..5th season...you knew he had ..it

by bradys

by mannings

by rivers 5th...you can see they got..it

all the greats have it..whats it?...dont know...you just know they got ...it

sure if we build a superb defense...add a bunch of 350 pound men up front to give him time to throw those 4 yard passes...find a way to run the ball...we may win it all with orton...but thats alot of ifs

i would rather find that qb....that young qb that you see a glimmer of greatness in very early...build around him

Let's see - all of the quarterbacks you named were with the same team/same system for 5 years. Now you are comparing Kyle to them, who has been with the Broncos 1 year, under a completely new system, with totally new players surrounding him, new coaches, etc., etc. - O K A Y

Ravage!!!
01-11-2010, 06:33 PM
Let's see - all of the quarterbacks you named were with the same team/same system for 5 years. Now you are comparing Kyle to them, who has been with the Broncos 1 year, under a completely new system, with totally new players surrounding him, new coaches, etc., etc. - O K A Y

Carol, this isnt' Kyle's first year in the NFL. It doesn't take the same system to show that a player is at that caliber, and Orton is just not even close. When he is cut from the Denver team after next season, how many starting jobs do you see him getting?

Not to mention.. Manning changed systems and HCs, so did Rivers. Brady changed systems and OC within his first five years.

arapaho2
01-11-2010, 06:34 PM
Let's see - all of the quarterbacks you named were with the same team/same system for 5 years. Now you are comparing Kyle to them, who has been with the Broncos 1 year, under a completely new system, with totally new players surrounding him, new coaches, etc., etc. - O K A Y


it doesnt matter...you either got it...or you dont

i grew up since the early seventies watching football...every year..all season....and you can see it..IT.. in wrs, rbs..lbrs..and qbs..some got it...some dont...those that dont can still be good players..those that have ..it..become great players

when marshall was drafted..in his first season...you could see it..same with moss..even rod smith when he took the field

orton is nothing more then a average joe qb..

Denver Native (Carol)
01-11-2010, 07:13 PM
207 of his 336 completions were within 10 yards..fact

propaganda aimed at settleing the unrest of a losing season doesnt fix it

facts = truth = propaganda - interesting :confused:

Ravage!!!
01-11-2010, 07:25 PM
Hmmm.. well. how many QBs have started for the Broncos in the last 25 years in their first year as a Bronco? Elway, Griese didn't start until his second, Plummer (but it was his 6th year in the NFL), Cutler didn't start a full season until his 2nd season, and then Orton (5th year in the NFL).

I guess you can find records for something

Cugel
01-11-2010, 08:44 PM
Of the last 25 world champions, the ones that won without great QBs:

McMahon's Bears - had potentially the greatest defense ever [#2 all time scoring defense]
Simms' and Hostetler's Giants - HOF head coach, Top-2 defense both years.
Williams' and Rypien's Redskins - HOF head coach, #6 scoring D in 87, top 3 in yards and points in 91.
Dilfer's Ravens - had potentially the greatest defense ever [#1 all-time scoring defense]
Johnson's Bucs - Best defense in the league in every category, pretty much [#4 all-time scoring defense]
Manning's Giants - the one argument on here for a team coming together - gelling, if you will - at the right time and making the most out of a decent team.

So...only 33% of the SB champs of the last quarter century did not have a HOF (or HOF-candidate) QB as their leader.

All of those - ALL - had absolutely world-class defenses, in many cases all-time defenses, except for the 2007 Giants (and maybe the 87 Skins). The Giants and Skins defenses became world-beaters in the playoffs though, and those championships came on the backs of some phenomenal defensive playoff performances.

Nothing on this list says a HOF QB will win you a title without a defense - those Cowboys teams, Niners teams, Pats teams, Steelers teams all ALSO had outstanding defenses. As Coach pointed out, the Foutses and Kellys of the world didn't get that ultimate ring, no matter how good they were.

But if you're gonna try to win a title without a great QB, then you'd better have a Top-2 defense and preferrably a HOF coach while you're at it.

There's no rule that says Cutler has to be our potentially-great QB, or even that he can be.

But if he isn't, we'd better find one, or we're going into the teeth of long odds, because the only thing harder to find around here than a replacement for our HOF QB has been a great defense.

I've been arguing this exact point for months now and getting flamed by the "Orton's Army" of blind homers for it.

Orton will simply NEVER win a SB. Period. Virtually NO chance at all. :coffee:

If you just look at the last 17 years -- basically since they changed the rules to outlaw touching the WR after 5 yards, and thus made this a pass-happy league, the QBs who've won SBs have been ALL either Hall of Fame (Aikman, Young, Elway), Certain future Hall of Fame (Brady, Warner, Manning) or POTENTIAL Hall of Fame and current Pro-bowlers: Roethlisberger and Eli Manning.

The only exceptions were Dilfer and Brad Johnson who had the #1 all-time and #4 all-time defenses (the #2 and #3 defenses were the '85 and '86 Bears who won with Jim McMahon at QB).

So, in reality unless you have an ALL-TIME great defense you're probably not going to win a championship without a truly GREAT QB.

It's even harder to win a SB today without a GREAT passer than in the past because of the rules making it almost impossible to deflect the WR from his route.

You saw in the Cardinals-Packers game that even the #2 defense in the NFL couldn't contain a great passing game when a great QB got hot and has WRs like Larry Fitzgerald.

Denver desperately needs to draft their QB of the future starting this draft, because until they do there's simply NO future chance of a SB title.

And it will take at least 3 years to groom that QB to be ready to take over, so unless they do it THIS draft, then the earliest the Broncos could HOPE to compete for a championship would be 2014. :coffee:

topscribe
01-11-2010, 10:48 PM
Carol, this isnt' Kyle's first year in the NFL. It doesn't take the same system to show that a player is at that caliber, and Orton is just not even close. When he is cut from the Denver team after next season, how many starting jobs do you see him getting?

Not to mention.. Manning changed systems and HCs, so did Rivers. Brady changed systems and OC within his first five years.

This was Kyle's third year, actually on the field. Shanahan himself said it takes
about three years to become fully orientated into a system. Kyle himself, in his
postseason conference, he was still learning it, and he implied that camp will
help him and the rest of the team go a long way in playing more naturally in it.
That was supported by McDaniels.

Even at that, Kyle did a good job . . .

-----

Lonestar
01-11-2010, 10:54 PM
I guess most missed the FACT that not only Orton was in his first year in this scheme but everyone except #10 was new to it. That includes every assistant coach.

I think Iread today in one of the threads that Josh was praising Orton and saying he did well learning the posistion and expects him to be better next year.

I'm guessing that the film room will get a lot more use this year than last and when he looks at something he will get it without thinking about it.

For you Josh and Orton haters get ready for another year of hate mongering.

It is. Very unlikely Josh will draft a QB on day one. He knows the weakness is the LOS.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-11-2010, 11:20 PM
I guess most missed the FACT that not only Orton was in his first year in this scheme but everyone except #10 was new to it. That includes every assistant coach.

I think Iread today in one of the threads that Josh was praising Orton and saying he did well learning the posistion and expects him to be better next year.

I'm guessing that the film room will get a lot more use this year than last and when he looks at something he will get it without thinking about it.

For you Josh and Orton haters get ready for another year of hate mongering.

It is. Very unlikely Josh will draft a QB on day one. He knows the weakness is the LOS.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

http://www.gazette.com/sports/unrest...s-broncos.html

Denver’s draft preparation will be different, McDaniels said. He said last year the front office didn’t get a full opportunity to evaluate college players because he was hired in January. This year, the Broncos already have preliminary draft rankings after scouting players during the season.

“That’s something that we didn’t get to last year until late February or early March,” McDaniels said. “We’re months in advance of that. We’ve got a really good idea of what we want to look for and the kind of players we’re looking for.”

dogfish
01-11-2010, 11:59 PM
Denver desperately needs to draft their QB of the future starting this draft, because until they do there's simply NO future chance of a SB title.

And it will take at least 3 years to groom that QB to be ready to take over, so unless they do it THIS draft, then the earliest the Broncos could HOPE to compete for a championship would be 2014. :coffee:

i agree with the rest of your post-- hell, it's just common sense that teams with HOF quarterbacks have dominated the super bowls in the salary cap era-- but these two points i don't necessarily agree with. . . i'd LIKE to see us take a QB this year, but this doesn't look like a particularly strong QB class-- if the right guy isn't there, i certainly don't want to waste a pick just to say we took one! defensive linemen also take time to develop, and if there's better value there, i'd rather build the lines and put the rest of the pieces in place for whoever our next QB is. . .

also, there's no reason it has to take three years to groom a QB. . . that hasn't been the case at all recently. . . roethlisberger went to the playoffs as a rookie starter and won it all his second season. . . matt ryan took the falcons to the playoffs as a rookie last year, and joe flacco took the ravens all the way to the AFC championship game-- and in his second season, they just went up to foxborough and knocked off the patsies. . . hell, even rookie mark sanchez quarterbacked a playoff team this year, and also notched a win. . .

Lonestar
01-12-2010, 12:05 AM
C'mon Jr. I've seen Orton throw bad passes on BUBBLE SCREENS and gimme curl routes. There's nothing about Orton that says anything "elite" other than maybe his attitude.

Some folks need to face facts that Orton has probably the WORST skill set of any starting QB in the NFL. He's inaccurate and immobile. That's a terrible combination. The only thing that could make him worse would be if he was a poor decision maker like Jake Delhomme. Actually, that would make him Jake Delhomme.


I have seen Brady manning all throw bad passes your point is? Is it anything other than jay and mike are gone and a few of you are still butt hurt.

I have to trust this HC to know what he is doing if you don't want to fine by me. If he says he is going to bring him back and he is the starter are you going boycott the Broncos?

I have seen nothing to show me he is any more immobile than brady or manning's are for that matter Big Ben.

as far as accuracy is concerned seems pretty good to me about 90 on the QB rating .. yes I know that many think that is a bad way to score a QB but seem to remember many of Y'all thinking it was OK when John, or jay was here.

Face it most that are ragging on Orton thought jay was the second coming and well ................

slim
01-12-2010, 12:08 AM
so having a stud quarterback is better than not having one?

whoa, who'da thunk it??

:noidea:


i can't believe kreiger had the nads to ask JMFMCD if orton is on a level with the likes of brees and manning-- what a shitty, loaded question. . . josh should have asked kreiger how his writing compares to hemmingway-- and then knocked his teeth down his throat! what the hell is the guy supposed to say?


of course, kreiger doesn't exactly put forth any solutions as to where we're going to get this elite quarterback-- i don't think brees or manning are available, and you can't just walk up to the podium on draft day and hand the commish a card saying "elite quarterback". . . .

/thread

Lonestar
01-12-2010, 12:12 AM
i agree with the rest of your post-- hell, it's just common sense that teams with HOF quarterbacks have dominated the super bowls in the salary cap era-- but these two points i don't necessarily agree with. . . i'd LIKE to see us take a QB this year, but this doesn't look like a particularly strong QB class-- if the right guy isn't there, i certainly don't want to waste a pick just to say we took one! defensive linemen also take time to develop, and if there's better value there, i'd rather build the lines and put the rest of the pieces in place for whoever our next QB is. . .

also, there's no reason it has to take three years to groom a QB. . . that hasn't been the case at all recently. . . roethlisberger went to the playoffs as a rookie starter and won it all his second season. . . matt ryan took the falcons to the playoffs as a rookie last year, and joe flacco took the ravens all the way to the AFC championship game-- and in his second season, they just went up to foxborough and knocked off the patsies. . . hell, even rookie mark sanchez quarterbacked a playoff team this year, and also notched a win. . .


it is also a fact that many of those HOF type QB's were after thoughts also, the big named guys name manning well they were not really HOF QB till they won one either..

So lets get off the you got to have a "HOF" QB before you can win.. Brady was not a HOF QB till his 3rd or 4th year well after he won one BEN got lucky having a great defense his first year..

frankly if we play great and win a few playoff games over the next few years I can live with that.

If we get there great but it will not be because Orton is not a HOF QB..

Dirk
01-12-2010, 09:14 AM
I will take a #1 ranked defense and Orton over a HOF QB and middle of the pack defense.

The higher ranked defenses prevail over the higher ranked offenses in most cases. History has proved this.

Pitt's number 1 defense beat Ariz's number 4 offense
NYG's number 7 defense beat NE's number 1 offense
Pitt's number 4 defense beat Sea's number 2 offense
TB's number 1 defense beat Oak's number 1 offense

If Orton can manager the game and our running game and defense improves I'm ok with that.

TXBRONC
01-12-2010, 09:38 AM
Sorry. Manning and Brady have enough accolades next to their name to excuse a handful of bad games. Kyle Orton does not. The ironic thing about your argument is your using a couple games to make your case against Brady (a playoff game) and Manning, and a game against a bottom dwelling NFL team (Chiefs) to make your case for Orton. Nevermind Manning and Brady's illustrious career, and Orton's mere average.

Come and argue your point when Orton actually wins a playoff game, and I might bump him up into the "merely above average" QB of NFL QB's.

What does Kyle Orton, Jason Campbell, and Jake Delhomme all have in common? A top 10 defense, and no playoff appearance. I'm sensing a trend here.

In '08 the Colts offensive line was terrible yet they still managed to finish with a 12-4 record and the 5th seed in the playoffs.

TXBRONC
01-12-2010, 09:52 AM
i agree with the rest of your post-- hell, it's just common sense that teams with HOF quarterbacks have dominated the super bowls in the salary cap era-- but these two points i don't necessarily agree with. . . i'd LIKE to see us take a QB this year, but this doesn't look like a particularly strong QB class-- if the right guy isn't there, i certainly don't want to waste a pick just to say we took one! defensive linemen also take time to develop, and if there's better value there, i'd rather build the lines and put the rest of the pieces in place for whoever our next QB is. . .

also, there's no reason it has to take three years to groom a QB. . . that hasn't been the case at all recently. . . roethlisberger went to the playoffs as a rookie starter and won it all his second season. . . matt ryan took the falcons to the playoffs as a rookie last year, and joe flacco took the ravens all the way to the AFC championship game-- and in his second season, they just went up to foxborough and knocked off the patsies. . . hell, even rookie mark sanchez quarterbacked a playoff team this year, and also notched a win. . .

I agree we don't want take quarterback just for the sake of grooming one to eventually be the starter. It's a risky proposition to begin with even if this was a strong draft at the quarterback position. So with this draft being weak on talent at the quarterback position Denver would be better off focusing on other areas like offensive guard and defensive line.

Ravage!!!
01-12-2010, 12:04 PM
I will take a #1 ranked defense and Orton over a HOF QB and middle of the pack defense.

The higher ranked defenses prevail over the higher ranked offenses in most cases. History has proved this.

Pitt's number 1 defense beat Ariz's number 4 offense
NYG's number 7 defense beat NE's number 1 offense
Pitt's number 4 defense beat Sea's number 2 offense
TB's number 1 defense beat Oak's number 1 offense

If Orton can manager the game and our running game and defense improves I'm ok with that.

Sooo.. you are saying that its MORE likely to go to and win a Super Bowl via the defense than it is with offense, yet you JUST named four Super Bowl winners, three of which had top QBs. I think thats the point everyone is making.

A top QB helps a defense. If you are scoring points, it puts YOUR defense in a position to go after their QB. It puts the OTHER team in a position of catch-up, with GREATLY helps any defense.

We saw that our defense dropped just a bit past the first 6 games, and our offense couldn't win.

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 12:16 PM
Sooo.. you are saying that its MORE likely to go to and win a Super Bowl via the defense than it is with offense, yet you JUST named four Super Bowl winners, three of which had top QBs. I think thats the point everyone is making.

A top QB helps a defense. If you are scoring points, it puts YOUR defense in a position to go after their QB. It puts the OTHER team in a position of catch-up, with GREATLY helps any defense.

We saw that our defense dropped just a bit past the first 6 games, and our offense couldn't win.

some people dont realize that teams like the bolts...who has a oline just as bad as ours...has a run game worse then ours..and a defense ranked lower then ours


are playoff contenders because of the qb

some people dont realize the best defense sometimes is a good offense..and good offenses with a qb that can sustain drives and make plays can keep thier own struggling defense of the field..therfore if their not on the field, there not getting scored on..thier rankings go up

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 12:18 PM
We saw that our defense dropped just a bit past the first 6 games, and our offense couldn't win.


and thats exactly what they condemm cutler for...not being able to overcome a horrible defense..only his was worse and all season

GEM
01-12-2010, 12:20 PM
I do wish you would argue with facts, if you're going to argue.

Orton did not accumulate a 62.1% comp by being inaccurate.

And, of course, you absolutely omitted Kyle's high ankle sprain when talking
about his immobility. He seemed somewhat recovered from that sprain in the
final game against KC. Did you see that? I saw a lot of mobility there . . .




When anybody's protection breaks down, he "sucks." Manning, Brady, Favre . .
alllllllllll QBs depend on protection. That is why teams try to provide it.

-----

Hence Brady's lackluster day Sunday vs. the Ravens. He was absolutely manhandled and couldn't find a way around it.

Ravage!!!
01-12-2010, 12:24 PM
I will take a #1 ranked defense and Orton over a HOF QB and middle of the pack defense.

The higher ranked defenses prevail over the higher ranked offenses in most cases. History has proved this.

Pitt's number 1 defense beat Ariz's number 4 offense
NYG's number 7 defense beat NE's number 1 offense
Pitt's number 4 defense beat Sea's number 2 offense
TB's number 1 defense beat Oak's number 1 offense

If Orton can manager the game and our running game and defense improves I'm ok with that.


Also.. lets not forget. It wasn't Pitt's defense that won that game against AZ last year. They lost the lead late and it was Pitt's offense that had to come down and score to win.... with a great pass and a greater catch tip-toeing in the endzone.

NYG's defense played amazing against that offense. But they gave up the lead late, and it was Manning at the end of the game making plays to drive the OFFENSE down the field to win the game.

Dirk
01-12-2010, 12:28 PM
Sooo.. you are saying that its MORE likely to go to and win a Super Bowl via the defense than it is with offense, yet you JUST named four Super Bowl winners, three of which had top QBs. I think thats the point everyone is making.

A top QB helps a defense. If you are scoring points, it puts YOUR defense in a position to go after their QB. It puts the OTHER team in a position of catch-up, with GREATLY helps any defense.

We saw that our defense dropped just a bit past the first 6 games, and our offense couldn't win.

What I am saying is that a good defense historically has beat a good offense.

Not every time, but more than not.

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 12:32 PM
Hence Brady's lackluster day Sunday vs. the Ravens. He was absolutely manhandled and couldn't find a way around it.


that lackluster day had nothing to do with loseing the teams number one wr the week before...his go to guy...the best slot guy in the game..his first look every snap?

Dirk
01-12-2010, 12:35 PM
that lackluster day had nothing to do with loseing the teams number one wr the week before...his go to guy...the best slot guy in the game..his first look every snap?

In Eddleman's <sp> game play it seemed Welker wasn't missed in the least. He is Welker part 2 only faster.

e-Lou-sive1
01-12-2010, 12:54 PM
Mc D was orginnally interested in Matt Casell to be the qb he thought was "elite" and fit his style of offense,Orton became a commodity in the Jay Cutler deal to where Chicago wasn't even prepared to fight to keep him.Orton had enough time to prepare for the season and learn the system yet during the preseason Brandstrater looked like the better choice If not for the fact that Orton was the one with more experience.Orton looked like his timing was off with his receivers under throwing them or throwing behind them making them reach out for it.He was throwing screens and short passes to his running backs right smack in the middle of the defensive linemen making kamikazes out of them and potentally shorting their careers.It is worth it to look around and see who becomes available without risking another mediocre season.

Ravage!!!
01-12-2010, 12:58 PM
In Eddleman's <sp> game play it seemed Welker wasn't missed in the least. He is Welker part 2 only faster.

Other than the fact taht you lose those years of adjustments the two have learned together... and trust that the other made the adjustment.

SOCALORADO.
01-12-2010, 01:27 PM
Other than the fact taht you lose those years of adjustments the two have learned together... and trust that the other made the adjustment.

Well, i have kinda kept up with this thread, just due to the topic, and you guys could argue back and forth forever and a day, but the question is,
what do the broncos do? Just build a defense of 2000 Ravens proportions, or go get a QB?
I personally think the defense with a top notch NT, another mid round DE and a SS to replace Dawkins, could be a top 5 unit.
I also think that a QB that better fits the system is needed. The Phillip Rivers example is dead on. As much as i hate the guy, he just stands in their and makes play after play. DEN needs a true downfield thrower that can lead.
So whos out there? Both through the draft or via FA or trades.

Everyone make your case for the player you think can be the guy behind center.
Or the defensive players that can add to the defense as it is now.

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 01:39 PM
Well, i have kinda kept up with this thread, just due to the topic, and you guys could argue back and forth forever and a day, but the question is,
what do the broncos do? Just build a defense of 2000 Ravens proportions, or go get a QB?
I personally think the defense with a top notch NT, another mid round DE and a SS to replace Dawkins, could be a top 5 unit.
I also think that a QB that better fits the system is needed. The Phillip Rivers example is dead on. As much as i hate the guy, he just stands in their and makes play after play. DEN needs a true downfield thrower that can lead.
So whos out there? Both through the draft or via FA or trades.

Everyone make your case for the player you think can be the guy behind center.
Or the defensive players that can add to the defense as it is now.

well were stuck with orton..unless we get a young qb in the draft.
i dont know of any we could have already in the league...if they got potential teams dont wanna part with them cheap

face it we probably will lose dawkins, champ by 2011, hill and goodman arent srping chickens either, DJ will come due in a couple, will we keep doom?

my problem with this is we coulda had orakpo...now i think moreno will be a stud...but with hillis in the wings and a potetial lower rounder we didnt need to ignore orakpo..imagine orakpo and doom...rushing the passer

a all time great d would be fine..but building around a franchise qb is by far the fastest way to the top..we have most of the offensive blocks in place...a few linemen, another wr of marshalls caliber wont be hard to find:rolleyes:...all we need is the man

the defense will maitain itself with the signing of doom and a nother pass rusher and dominate NT

qb is the way to go

claymore
01-12-2010, 01:51 PM
well were stuck with orton..unless we get a young qb in the draft.
i dont know of any we could have already in the league...if they got potential teams dont wanna part with them cheap

face it we probably will lose dawkins, champ by 2011, hill and goodman arent srping chickens either, DJ will come due in a couple, will we keep doom?

my problem with this is we coulda had orakpo...now i think moreno will be a stud...but with hillis in the wings and a potetial lower rounder we didnt need to ignore orakpo..imagine orakpo and doom...rushing the passer

a all time great d would be fine..but building around a franchise qb is by far the fastest way to the top..we have most of the offensive blocks in place...a few linemen, another wr of marshalls caliber wont be hard to find:rolleyes:...all we need is the man

the defense will maitain itself with the signing of doom and a nother pass rusher and dominate NT

qb is the way to go

Im excited to see what Orton can do with healthy ankles.

SOCALORADO.
01-12-2010, 01:56 PM
well were stuck with orton..unless we get a young qb in the draft.
i dont know of any we could have already in the league...if they got potential teams dont wanna part with them cheap

face it we probably will lose dawkins, champ by 2011, hill and goodman arent srping chickens either, DJ will come due in a couple, will we keep doom?

my problem with this is we coulda had orakpo...now i think moreno will be a stud...but with hillis in the wings and a potetial lower rounder we didnt need to ignore orakpo..imagine orakpo and doom...rushing the passer

a all time great d would be fine..but building around a franchise qb is by far the fastest way to the top..we have most of the offensive blocks in place...a few linemen, another wr of marshalls caliber wont be hard to find:rolleyes:...all we need is the man

the defense will maitain itself with the signing of doom and a nother pass rusher and dominate NT

qb is the way to go


OK, so who?
Lets look at the draft.
Bradford-huge injury issue. We dont know if he even shows up to the combine!
McCoy- No, no and no. Like the guys attitude, wish him the best....somewhere else. Weak armed QB, we already have one.
Claussen-*sighs*..... this kid is currently nursing 2 black eyes from what ive heard. Just a total d bag with a huge ego and attitude. Plus hes not that good anyways.
Tebow- ?????????? jeez, i dont even want to go there.

Then theres the QBs i think personally could, possibly be good QBs.

Skelton-Since Mallett has chosen to go back to school, this guy is the most physically gifted QB in the draft. Another Flacco type player with huge upside.
Canfield- Solid proto-typical QB in the mold of Tom Brady.

Trade.
The only QBs that DEN could trade for to me, are QBS currently as back ups.
Kolb or Moore.
FA.
Kyle Orton is the biggest name out there..... oh wait!!

So now what?

Ravage!!!
01-12-2010, 02:53 PM
What I am saying is that a good defense historically has beat a good offense.

Not every time, but more than not.

I hear you, I just don't know if I agree. Plus, as I was saying....a good offense makes a good defense be a BETTER defense. Rarely do you see a defense be great without a good offense that is dictating the other team. Thats why they are so far and few between.

I don't know. I just feel that if you have a strong offense, and a defense that is middle of te road, you are better off than trying to build around a defense that can completely shut down opposng teams, every game. Right now, when we can shut down the other team completely (as we did in the second half of 5 of those 6 wins).... we are ok. But once we don't...

Even Bill Billick, who won a Super Bowl with one of the greatest defenses ever was asked if he would rather have a strong offense, or a strong defense. He said "Offense, because if you do get behind, you have a chance to score points and catch up. With a strong defense, when you do get behind you have a very difficult time winning the game."

I think thats having the offense to score, and put pressure on the other team, is the most important thing. Obviously it can't be with a defense that lets the other score at will, which is why I say a defense that is just "good enough".... if your offense is putting points up, it absolutely helps your defense since they know you are playing catch-up.

FanInAZ
01-12-2010, 04:10 PM
The higher ranked defenses prevail over the higher ranked offenses in most cases. History has proved this.

Pitt's number 1 defense beat Ariz's number 4 offense
NYG's number 7 defense beat NE's number 1 offense
Pitt's number 4 defense beat Sea's number 2 offense
TB's number 1 defense beat Oak's number 1 offense

Patriots' #4 offense beat the Eagles' #2 defense
Patriots' #12 offense beat the Panthers' #10 defense

So as you see here, an elite offense can beat an elite defense even if the defense is ranked hirer then the offense. Now let's look at how other elite offense have done against decent defenses in the SB.

Rams' #1 offense beat the Titans' #15 defense
Packers' #1 offense beat the Patriots' #14 defense
Cowboys' #3 offense beat the Steelers' #9 defense

Its interesting to note how many mediocre defense manage to find themselves in the SB on the backs of their offenses. If defense is the one key factor in winning football games, then half of the teams that have made it to the SB should not have even qualified for the play-offs. Of course I saved the best for last:

Broncos' #2 offense beat the Falcons' #4 defense
Broncos' #1 offense beat the Packers' #5 defense

2 elite offenses vs. 2 elite defenses and the offenses won the day. Now let's focus on the Steelers and their notoriously great defenses, especially during their great 70's dynasty. Here was the rankings of their offense and defenses that won those 4 SBs during that decade:

(SB IX) Offense: 6; Defense: 2
(SB X) Offense: 5; Defense: 2
(SB XIII) Offense: 5; Defense: 1
(SB XIV) Offense: 1; Defense: 4

That's right, the Steelers won their 4th SB with an offense that was ranked higher then their defense! Also note that their offenses were amongst the league's elite as well. That is why they won all of the SBs! They had complete teams that were great on both sides of the ball! Its also clear that there's more than 1 way to win a football game.

LoyalSoldier
01-12-2010, 05:45 PM
I will take a #1 ranked defense and Orton over a HOF QB and middle of the pack defense.

The higher ranked defenses prevail over the higher ranked offenses in most cases. History has proved this.

Pitt's number 1 defense beat Ariz's number 4 offense
NYG's number 7 defense beat NE's number 1 offense
Pitt's number 4 defense beat Sea's number 2 offense
TB's number 1 defense beat Oak's number 1 offense

If Orton can manager the game and our running game and defense improves I'm ok with that.

Pitt's defense didn't beat Arizona. Were you watching the game? The defense gave up a big play to the Cards and it was the offense from the Steelers who drove down and won the game.

Northman
01-12-2010, 05:50 PM
Pitt's defense didn't beat Arizona. Were you watching the game? The defense gave up a big play to the Cards and it was the offense from the Steelers who drove down and won the game.

True, however it was Pitt's defense that intercepted Arizona's offense and took it 90+ yds to the house to close out the first half. Without that Pitt may have well lost the game.

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 05:55 PM
OK, so who?
Lets look at the draft.
Bradford-huge injury issue. We dont know if he even shows up to the combine!
McCoy- No, no and no. Like the guys attitude, wish him the best....somewhere else. Weak armed QB, we already have one.
Claussen-*sighs*..... this kid is currently nursing 2 black eyes from what ive heard. Just a total d bag with a huge ego and attitude. Plus hes not that good anyways.
Tebow- ?????????? jeez, i dont even want to go there.

Then theres the QBs i think personally could, possibly be good QBs.

Skelton-Since Mallett has chosen to go back to school, this guy is the most physically gifted QB in the draft. Another Flacco type player with huge upside.
Canfield- Solid proto-typical QB in the mold of Tom Brady.

Trade.
The only QBs that DEN could trade for to me, are QBS currently as back ups.
Kolb or Moore.
FA.
Kyle Orton is the biggest name out there..... oh wait!!

So now what?

hence the wording..were stuck with orton...try to follow along

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 05:59 PM
Im excited to see what Orton can do with healthy ankles.


yea he might avoid two more sacks :rolleyes:

topscribe
01-12-2010, 06:24 PM
yea he might avoid two more sacks :rolleyes:

Orton avoided two sacks in one play in the final game against KC. :nod:

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Ravage!!!
01-12-2010, 06:27 PM
wow.. that gets me excited

topscribe
01-12-2010, 06:29 PM
wow.. that gets me excited

See, that's the problem with Orton-haters.

They can't even agree to something good about him . . . :coffee:

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HORSEPOWER 56
01-12-2010, 06:32 PM
Orton avoided two sacks in one play in the final game against KC. :nod:

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And threw the ball into the dirt on third down essentially ending the drive anyway....

Ravage!!!
01-12-2010, 06:33 PM
See, that's the problem with Orton-haters.

They can't even agree to something good about him . . . :coffee:

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Because a single play, does not a season make. A single game, does not a career make. NOR does the single drive against NE, that continues to find it's way into discussions about Orton... does a career make.

Orton's game against KC, doesn't show me he's a mover and scrambler.. and Orton's drive against NE that you have brought up a million times, doesn't mean he's a guy I will ever count on to drive this offense. Every QB has their play, their series, their downs, and their throws.

Orton is ok, if your main QB goes down with injury. He'll make a fantastic back-up.... or.... a good place-holder until a team finds their starter.

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 06:40 PM
Orton avoided two sacks in one play in the final game against KC. :nod:

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only to do what?..oh thats right throw it into the dirt

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 06:42 PM
wow.. that gets me excited

i know..i mean cutler only avoided multiple sacks in every game multiple times a game...all season

but im supposed to be impressed cause orton did it once..:confused:

topscribe
01-12-2010, 06:53 PM
And threw the ball into the dirt on third down essentially ending the drive anyway....

Oh yeah, I see. That really takes away from the account of his mobility, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

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topscribe
01-12-2010, 06:55 PM
i know..i mean cutler only avoided multiple sacks in every game multiple times a game...all season

but im supposed to be impressed cause orton did it once..:confused:

Yes, Cutler played on a high ankle sprain, didn't he? :rolleyes:

*what was that again? something about 26 INTs?*

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topscribe
01-12-2010, 07:02 PM
It's amazing how Cutler always ends up in a discussion about Orton.

So let's get this out of the way:

Cutler 27 TDs, Orton 21
Cutler 26 INTs, Orton 12
Cutler 3,666 yds, Orton 3,802
Cutler 6.6 YPA, Orton 7.0
Cutler 60.5% comp, Orton 62.1%
Cutler 76.8 QBR, Orton 86.8

Oh yes, Cutler 35 sacks, Orton 29

Let's can the Cutler shit, shall we?

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KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
01-12-2010, 07:07 PM
It's amazing how Cutler always ends up in a discussion about Orton.

So let's get this out of the way:

Cutler 27 TDs, Orton 21
Cutler 26 INTs, Orton 12
Cutler 3,666 yds, Orton 3,802
Cutler 6.6 YPA, Orton 7.0
Cutler 60.5% comp, Orton 62.1%
Cutler 76.8 QBR, Orton 86.8

Oh yes, Cutler 35 sacks, Orton 29

Let's can the Cutler shit, shall we?

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Amen.

FanInAZ
01-12-2010, 08:03 PM
If we are going to research the history of #1 offenses vs #1 defense, we need to do it right. Instead of picking the examples that support our point and ignoring the rest, we need to look at all cases no matter who's side they support. It should be noted that the rankings I use is points and not yardage. What's the point of driving the ball up and down the field if your not going to cash in at the end? The number in the 1st parentheses is the SB that they went to. The 1st number of the 2nd parentheses is the ranking of that teams opposite platoon. The 2nd number is the total number of teams in the league at that time.

Offenses 8-10
Patriots (XLII) L - Defense (4/32)
Seahawks (XL) L - Defense (7/32)
Rams ((XXXVI) L - Defense (7/32)
Rams (XXXIV) W - Defense (4/32)
Broncos (XXXII) W - Defense (6/30)
Packers (XXXI) W - Defense (1/30)
Forty-Niners (XXXIV) W - Defense (6/28)
Redskins (XXVI) W - Defense (2/28)
Bills (XXV) L - Defense (6/28)
Forty-Niners (XXIV) W - Defense (4/28) You will find our only #1 ranked defense list amongst the others #1s that lost SBs.
Dolphins (XIX) L - Defense (7/28)
Redskins (XVIII) L - Defense (11/28)
Cowboys (XIII) L - Defense (3/28)
Dolphins (VII) W - Defense (1/26)
Cowboys (VI) W - Defense (7/26)
Vikings (IV) L - Defense (1/16 NFL)
Raiders (II) L - Defense (2/9 AFL)
Chiefs (I) L - Defense (2/9 AFL)

Defenses 9-4
Steelers (XLIII) W - Offense (20/32)
Buccaneers (XXXVII) W - Offense (18/32)
Ravens (XXXV) W - Offense (14/31)
Packers (XXXI) W - Offense (1/30)
Steelers (XIII) W - Offense (5/28)
Giants (XXV) W - Offense (15/28)
Broncos (XXIV) L - Offense (8/28) This was the only time we had the #1 ranked defense in our history, and we suffered the worst lose in SB history with it.
Bears (XX) W - Offense (2/28)
Eagles (XV) L - Offense (6/28)
Dolphins (VII) W - Offense (1/26)
Vikings (IV) L - Offense (1/16 NFL)
Colts (III) L - Offense (2/16 NFL)
Packers (I) W - Offense (4/15 NFL)

The fans of defense will definitely like the fact that #1 Defense have won 69% of the SBs they have appeared in compared to #1 Offense winning only 44%. And in battles of #1s, the defenses have a 3-2 advantage.

Fans of offense would point out that #1 offenses have reached the SB 18 times to the #1 defenses 13. Its also interesting to note that with the exception of the '83 Redskins (SB XVIII), the defenses of those offenses are ranked #1 teams ranked no worst the 7th. How many think that there may be a connection between effective offenses give their opponent few shots at their defense leads to defense being ranked higher?

LoyalSoldier
01-12-2010, 08:34 PM
Oh yeah, I see. That really takes away from the account of his mobility, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

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It doesn't matter if you can move if you can't throw an accurate pass afterwards. The defense still wins.

topscribe
01-12-2010, 08:37 PM
It doesn't matter if you can move if you can't throw an accurate pass afterwards. The defense still wins.

The point was mobility.

Get it? MOBILITY.

That was the argument. If you can't win, don't try to distract it.

The Orton-haters were attacking his mobility.

If you want to address passing, that belongs in a different discussion.

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LoyalSoldier
01-12-2010, 08:56 PM
The point was mobility.

Get it? MOBILITY.

That was the argument. If you can't win, don't try to distract it.

The Orton-haters were attacking his mobility.

If you want to address passing, that belongs in a different discussion.
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Part of being "mobile" is still being able to use that mobility to make a play.

That is one thing I was absolutely frustrated with Orton was when he finally did move he didn't throw a very accurate pass. His mechanics were awful even when he had time to set up and throw.

It is no secret that Orton needs a pocket to work with. Without it he just can't get anything done.

topscribe
01-12-2010, 09:05 PM
Part of being "mobile" is still being able to use that mobility to make a play.

That is one thing I was absolutely frustrated with Orton was when he finally did move he didn't throw a very accurate pass. His mechanics were awful even when he had time to set up and throw.

It is no secret that Orton needs a pocket to work with. Without it he just can't get anything done.

Okay. Back to square one.

Watch the final game, the one in which Orton apparently finally had a healthier ankle.

He scrambled left. He scrambled right. He spun out of a defender's grasp,
twice, in the same play. He ran for a first down on a third-and-long.

That answers how you Orton-haters denigrate him for your exaggerated lack
of mobility charges.

Mobility. That was the issue I addressed because that was the issue being
discussed at the time. Try as you might, you will not distract me on this.

Mobility.

Mobility.

Mobility.

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LoyalSoldier
01-12-2010, 09:10 PM
Okay. Back to square one.

Watch the final game, the one in which Orton apparently finally had a healthier ankle.

He scrambled left. He scrambled right. He spun out of a defender's grasp,
twice, in the same play. He ran for a first down on a third-and-long.

That answers how you Orton-haters denigrate him for your exaggerated lack
of mobility charges.

Mobility. That was the issue I addressed because that was the issue being
discussed at the time. Try as you might, you will not distract me on this.

Mobility.

Mobility.

Mobility.

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Again Mobility in the NFL means using your legs to make a play. My point is you can run all you want, but unless you can throw after avoid tackles then it is pointless how many tackles you avoid.

Every QB in the NFL can run, but not every QB is a mobile QB.

topscribe
01-12-2010, 09:15 PM
Again Mobility in the NFL means using your legs to make a play. My point is you can run all you want, but unless you can throw after avoid tackles then it is pointless how many tackles you avoid.

Every QB in the NFL can run, but not every QB is a mobile QB.

Again, watch the last game. You didn't watch it.

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Lonestar
01-12-2010, 10:23 PM
Well, i have kinda kept up with this thread, just due to the topic, and you guys could argue back and forth forever and a day, but the question is,
what do the broncos do? Just build a defense of 2000 Ravens proportions, or go get a QB?
I personally think the defense with a top notch NT, another mid round DE and a SS to replace Dawkins, could be a top 5 unit.
I also think that a QB that better fits the system is needed. The Phillip Rivers example is dead on. As much as i hate the guy, he just stands in their and makes play after play. DEN needs a true downfield thrower that can lead.
So whos out there? Both through the draft or via FA or trades.

Everyone make your case for the player you think can be the guy behind center.
Or the defensive players that can add to the defense as it is now.


Yet rivers took a major step up last year when they finally got Chambers IIRC mid season and now he has very major WR over 6-3 most at 6-5 or better.. taller WR make the QB better.. I know everyone hated him as a QB because he mocked their precious jay game after game..

but the fact is he is a better QB than jay will be.. IMHO..

I have no real issue with Josh grooming some one else but I think that he has his mind made up on Kyle being the guy next year and most likely Brandy behind him as the hier apparent..
but Orton just may surprise all of the haters by becoming a great Scheme QB and after all that is all we want right a winner in the scheme like Brady and Cassell did..

Lonestar
01-12-2010, 10:29 PM
Yes, Cutler played on a high ankle sprain, didn't he? :rolleyes:

*what was that again? something about 26 INTs?*

-----

Hey Bud no sense arguing with folks that have their minds made up and Know more than our HC does .. I stopped losing sleep with the haters along time ago.. just like people hated jake some will hate Kyle..


hey wait they are the same folks that was on Jays jock..:laugh::laugh:

Ravage!!!
01-12-2010, 10:33 PM
It's amazing how Cutler always ends up in a discussion about Orton.

So let's get this out of the way:

Cutler 27 TDs, Orton 21
Cutler 26 INTs, Orton 12
Cutler 3,666 yds, Orton 3,802
Cutler 6.6 YPA, Orton 7.0
Cutler 60.5% comp, Orton 62.1%
Cutler 76.8 QBR, Orton 86.8

Oh yes, Cutler 35 sacks, Orton 29

Let's can the Cutler shit, shall we?

-----

Yet...... who is still the better QB...... Cutler.

So lets cut the crap, shall we? Please...........

Ravage!!!
01-12-2010, 10:37 PM
Again, watch the last game. You didn't watch it.

-----

We DID watch it. Again, you think your observations are FACT.. that gets sooooooo old. You think we should all take what YOU say, and what YOU see, as fact.

We WATCHED the game against the Chiefs. We ALllllll watched the game. We saw the ONE play in which you are talking about. Just as we saw the ONE drive you keep talking about against the Patriots.

But on that scramble... what did he do with the ball after dodging the sacks?? Nothing. Did he run for the first down the number of times he had a chance? No. What did he do? He threw it into the dirt.

He's NOT a mobile QB... making a single play with his feet and dodging a friggin sack, doesn't mean he's transformed into a mobile QB. It doesn't mean he's transformed into a QB people see as 'mobile' because he made ONE friggin dodge.

WE ALL WATCHED THE LAST GAME AND IT DOESN"T CHANGE OUR MINDS ON HIM BEING IMMOBILE

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 11:18 PM
Yes, Cutler played on a high ankle sprain, didn't he? :rolleyes:

*what was that again? something about 26 INTs?*

-----


i believe we are talking about cutler here for the broncos last season , you know where i seen him avoid multiple sacks many times...so pardon me if im not as giddy as you over orton manageing to slip a couple sacks on one play and throw the ball into the dirt


and i believe cutler played with undiagnosed diabetes for nearly a full season...i think that trumps a little boo boo of the ankle on a already imobile qb..if your going for the tuff guy angle:coffee:

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 11:34 PM
yep those numbers support your fantasy.. most fans are content to see what he can do after a year in the scheme next year.. but those haters like yourself will never be happy until jay comes back.

face it jay has been a loser since high school still the same jay he was in college and the broncos..

maybe you'd be happier following his career at bears.com

and you label people who dont believe orton is the answer..haters

yet you were hating on cutler as soon as shanny drafted him and double so when he took over for your precious plummer

pot ...meet kettle

for the record i dont give a rats ass if cutler ever comes back....i believe i heard alot of that with plummer...you all wont be happy until elway comes back

all i want is a good qb...not a average one
qb is the most important position on the team and i want the best we can get..sue me if i cant fathom orton ever being more then average

not wanting the best qb is like saying....you'd not mind having a dre bly in his prime instead of deon sanders in his...cause bly is ok and will be serviceable..it makes no sense to not want the best

orton is not the best

Ravage!!!
01-12-2010, 11:34 PM
yep those numbers support your fantasy.. most fans are content to see what he can do after a year in the scheme next year.. but those haters like yourself will never be happy until jay comes back.

face it jay has been a loser since high school still the same jay he was in college and the broncos..

maybe you'd be happier following his career at bears.com

yeah.. that joke was old after the first ten-times reading it. But then, I'm telling this to a guy that continued to think using the word "Daft" was amusing 1 billion times.

MOST fans?? are you sure about that? I'm betting MOST fans aren't content just to "wait" to see him in another year of the system. Most people.....at least most that watch the games.... know Orton is just Orton. Nothing special, and just a guy that takes the snaps until you find a playmaker.

I'll say it again... NUMBERS do NOT tell the story of how a QB plays... EVER. Thats why I watch the games, and don't go by the numbers alone. Thats why I know not to look at the "qb rating".. and why I can tell you now, just as I did about Plummer..... Orton is a place-holder.

But hey. You keep being happy with those average QBs.

Lonestar
01-13-2010, 12:06 AM
and you label people who dont believe orton is the answer..haters

yet you were hating on cutler as soon as shanny drafted him and double so when he took over for your precious plummer

pot ...meet kettle

for the record i dont give a rats ass if cutler ever comes back....i believe i heard alot of that with plummer...you all wont be happy until elway comes back

all i want is a good qb...not a average one
qb is the most important position on the team and i want the best we can get..sue me if i cant fathom orton ever being more then average

not wanting the best qb is like saying....you'd not mind having a dre bly in his prime instead of deon sanders in his...cause bly is ok and will be serviceable..it makes no sense to not want the best

orton is not the best



lets get it correct I did not think we needed and QB after Jake had a stellar season .. we needed DT in the worst way in fact we still do.

I'm going to give Orton the benefit of the doubt that he can be our QB if Josh thinks he is the guy I'll believe in him till he proves that trust wrong.. unlike many here that are still butt hurt that mike is gone and therefore jay departed .

We (excepting a few) do not know that Orton is not the best QB available for this scheme.

only hate and discontent is what I have seen by a few that are still riding jays jock.

Lonestar
01-13-2010, 12:07 AM
yeah.. that joke was old after the first ten-times reading it. But then, I'm telling this to a guy that continued to think using the word "Daft" was amusing 1 billion times.

MOST fans?? are you sure about that? I'm betting MOST fans aren't content just to "wait" to see him in another year of the system. Most people.....at least most that watch the games.... know Orton is just Orton. Nothing special, and just a guy that takes the snaps until you find a playmaker.

I'll say it again... NUMBERS do NOT tell the story of how a QB plays... EVER. Thats why I watch the games, and don't go by the numbers alone. Thats why I know not to look at the "qb rating".. and why I can tell you now, just as I did about Plummer..... Orton is a place-holder.

But hey. You keep being happy with those average QBs.

so your going to finally define average:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: could not do it with Jake and now you can?

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 12:18 AM
so your going to finally define average:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: could not do it with Jake and now you can?

I did it VERY well with Plummer. He was average, and thus... GONE. Moved onto his third team in the NFL. Thats what you see from average talent, they move around the league..team to team to team.

Average :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

arapaho2
01-13-2010, 12:21 AM
lets get it correct I did not think we needed and QB after Jake had a stellar season .. we needed DT in the worst way in fact we still do.

I'm going to give Orton the benefit of the doubt that he can be our QB if Josh thinks he is the guy I'll believe in him till he proves that trust wrong.. unlike many here that are still butt hurt that mike is gone and therefore jay departed .

We (excepting a few) do not know that Orton is not the best QB available for this scheme.

only hate and discontent is what I have seen by a few that are still riding jays jock.

im not hurt mikes gone..i was all for it...the message grew cold there

and yes we needed a DT...as we do now..and we coulda packaged the 1st we used for smith and probably got raji..instead we let Gb work up

but shanny seen the same thing most of us do..plummer was nothing but a stop gap...he took a chance a promising qb

as for not the best for the scheme...how'd this exact scheme work out with brady...how about with cassel?...so whys ortons numbers so much lower as our our scores..and wins...clearly he's not the best...but for the time being...and probably much like carolina and delhomme..were gonna be stuck with him until the coach admits he's wrong

arapaho2
01-13-2010, 12:25 AM
I did it VERY well with Plummer. He was average, and thus... GONE. Moved onto his third team in the NFL. Thats what you see from average talent, they move around the league..team to team to team.

Average :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

his 161 tds...161 ints...74.6 qb speaks of ..average

Lonestar
01-13-2010, 12:29 AM
im not hurt mikes gone..i was all for it...the message grew cold there

and yes we needed a DT...as we do now..and we coulda packaged the 1st we used for smith and probably got raji..instead we let Gb work up

but shanny seen the same thing most of us do..plummer was nothing but a stop gap...he took a chance a promising qb

as for not the best for the scheme...how'd this exact scheme work out with brady...how about with cassel?...so whys ortons numbers so much lower as our our scores..and wins...clearly he's not the best...but for the time being...and probably much like carolina and delhomme..were gonna be stuck with him until the coach admits he's wrong

again I'll wait till he bombs for sure. he has had one year in a new scheme half of which he had an injury issue of some sort.. finger and then ankle.. not to mention that the entire team save gaffing and jordan had to learn the scheme and routes etc. timing sucked for everyone OLine to WR because everyone was "thinking" instead of reacting to what was going on..

Now I know a few will say they had 15 games or so to get it down but it is not that easy to do.. if it was ONE player coming in that is one thing but 11-16 plus all the coaches taking that split second to think about it, well that dooms a lot of plays..

I can see why he was hot to get cassell here he KNEW the SCHEME and could help the teach it to the rest of the squad. then all they had to work on was timing..

anyway night..

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:43 AM
and you label people who dont believe orton is the answer..haters

yet you were hating on cutler as soon as shanny drafted him and double so when he took over for your precious plummer

pot ...meet kettle

for the record i dont give a rats ass if cutler ever comes back....i believe i heard alot of that with plummer...you all wont be happy until elway comes back

all i want is a good qb...not a average one
qb is the most important position on the team and i want the best we can get..sue me if i cant fathom orton ever being more then average

not wanting the best qb is like saying....you'd not mind having a dre bly in his prime instead of deon sanders in his...cause bly is ok and will be serviceable..it makes no sense to not want the best

orton is not the best

And that has been the argument of you people: Orton is not Peyton; therefore, he sucks.

I have news for you: "average" is a good QB in the NFL. Otherwise, they
wouldn't be playing in the NFL. You remind me of driving around a $100,000
Corvette, but you want a Lamborghini. Trouble is, the Lambo is a half-million
dollars. So it follows that Lambos are few and far in between. So your
Corvette now sucks. :laugh:

Now, here are the facts: Orton this year's achievements:

* 62.1% comp
* 3,802 yards
* 7.0 YPA
* 21 TD
* 12 INT
* 86.8 QBR

All the while:

* Playing with a compound (through the skin) dislocation of a finger on his throwing hand
several games during the first half of the season

* A high ankle sprain the second half of the season

* Seen playing with two ankles wrapped

* Playing with a substandard O-line

* Playing in a dramatically different offense in only his third year on the field

* Playing with new coaches with new expectations

* Playing with an entirely new team to him


. . . And still he did a fine job by the numbers.

I'll take that kind of "average" any day . . . :coffee:

-----

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:48 AM
Yet...... who is still the better QB...... Cutler.

So lets cut the crap, shall we? Please...........

Oh? So you still insist that Jay was the better quarterback this year?

That just shows me you are not interested in reality.

You give a new meaning to "fantasy football."

I'm not interested in vague arguments such as what you just presented.

Who did the better job? That is the point. The numbers speak for themselves . . .

-----

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:50 AM
his 161 tds...161 ints...74.6 qb speaks of ..average

Oh? So then, Kyle's 21 TDs...12 INTs...86.8 QBR...that is a higher level of "average"?

And Cutler's 27 TDs...26 INTs...76.8 QBR...that would be a "Plummer" average?

-----

Dirk
01-13-2010, 06:38 AM
I would still like to have the #1 defense every year. :D

frenchfan
01-13-2010, 07:16 AM
And that has been the argument of you people: Orton is not Peyton; therefore, he sucks.

I have news for you: "average" is a good QB in the NFL. Otherwise, they
wouldn't be playing in the NFL. You remind me of driving around a $100,000
Corvette, but you want a Lamborghini. Trouble is, the Lambo is a half-million
dollars. So it follows that Lambos are few and far in between. So your
Corvette now sucks. :laugh:

-----I can't agree more...
We all know Orton is no Peyton and will never be... But IMO he can be a decent QB for us... We were close to play (and certainly win) a SB with Plummer who was also a decent QB (he could have been better if he wasn't only a "sunday player" ;))...

There is one thing I don't understand... We are 8-8 this year, as we did the last 3 years...
So, our new coach achieved the same than a future HOF coach, without a so called great QB (Cutler) while facing a very tough schedule... :shocked:
really bad IMO !
Do I have to remind all of you that almost nobody thought we could won more than 4 games ???
I'm really disappointed we didn't make the playoffs after this season... But honestly, I would have signed for a 8-8 before the start of the season ;)
Did McD make mistakes? Of course he did... I'm a bit disappointed about some draftees (Ayers, Smith, Quinn), but time will tell... Play calling wasn't really great IMO (but may be it came with our OL... who knows? I'm not a NFL coach !). But he did some good things too... I'll give him 2 years before killing him... Next year will be more interesting IMO... I mean, we'll have more keys to judge...

When we'll have better lines (O & D), we'll know how Orton "sucks" or not... I don't think he is a great QB (as Manning, Brady & co), but he's not that bad (I like his leadership and attitude at least)... Sure, I'll take any great QB here if I had the opportunity... That's a no brainer... But IMO, our most glaring needs are the Lines... Plain and simple...

And after all... What do you need to win a SB? You need to be good... Either if it's about D or about QB...
BTW, do you know 49ers had one of the best D of the 80's?
Even Elway couldn't win it by himself... He needed a OL, a RB and a decent D.

Enjoy the offseason... It will be long :D :beer:

Northman
01-13-2010, 07:21 AM
I can't agree more...
We all know Orton is no Peyton and will never be... But IMO he can be a decent QB for us... We were close to play (and certainly win) a SB with Plummer who was also a decent QB (he could have been better if he wasn't only a "sunday player" ;))...

There is one thing I don't understand... We are 8-8 this year, as we did the last 3 years...
So, our new coach achieved the same than a future HOF coach, without a so called great QB (Cutler) while facing a very tough schedule... :shocked:
really bad IMO !
Do I have to remind all of you that almost nobody thought we could won more than 4 games ???
I'm really disappointed we didn't make the playoffs after this season... But honestly, I would have signed for a 8-8 before the start of the season ;)
Did McD make mistakes? Of course he did... I'm a bit disappointed about some draftees (Ayers, Smith, Quinn), but time will tell... Play calling wasn't really great IMO (but may be it came with our OL... who knows? I'm not a NFL coach !). But he did some good things too... I'll give him 2 years before killing him... Next year will be more interesting IMO... I mean, we'll have more keys to judge...

When we'll have better lines (O & D), we'll know how Orton "sucks" or not... I don't think he is a great QB (as Manning, Brady & co), but he's not that bad (I like his leadership and attitude at least)... Sure, I'll take any great QB here if I had the opportunity... That's a no brainer... But IMO, our most glaring needs are the Lines... Plain and simple...

And after all... What do you need to win a SB? You need to be good... Either if it's about D or about QB...
BTW, do you know 49ers had one of the best D of the 80's?
Even Elway couldn't win it by himself... He needed a OL, a RB and a decent D.

Enjoy the offseason... It will be long :D :beer:

Post of the year.

e-Lou-sive1
01-13-2010, 12:51 PM
When Orton was picked up by the Broncos he was booed during the practices eventually leading to Brandon Marshall's tantrums kicking or hitting the ball away from him.Orton showed what he had prior to any injuries or complicated pass plays yet he beat out Simms and Brandstrater who wasn't really considered to be candidate for the position.NFL analyists based their predictions on what the they saw and therefore expected very little progress downgrading them to 3 or 4 wins at best.Orton did not come in to resurrect the Broncos offense but more to create some foundation and leadership not because of his playmaking abilities.Kubiak who rarely played can be catagorized with the same attributes and was able to use his knowledge to become a great assistant coach for Shanahan.I hear that Orton is good with time management on the field but If you can't score what the purpose. I don't hate Orton because I think he has done the best he can do with his abilities and using the last game as a measuring stick is sugar coating his ineffectiveness in various situations.He turned the ball over during the KC game which were his mistakes forcing the defense to step up and make something happen.We all want this franchise to succeed and at what point does McD pull Orton out of the game and salvage the rest of the season the next time around.

Nomad
01-13-2010, 01:01 PM
Should be some good matchups this weekend as far as good offense vs good defense!! SD/Jets and Colts/Ravens!!

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 01:10 PM
Should be some good matchups this weekend as far as good offense vs good defense!! SD/Jets and Colts/Ravens!!

Great points.. and you are right. It will be fun to watch for sure. :beer:

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 01:19 PM
Oh? So you still insist that Jay was the better quarterback this year?

That just shows me you are not interested in reality.

You give a new meaning to "fantasy football."

I'm not interested in vague arguments such as what you just presented.

Who did the better job? That is the point. The numbers speak for themselves . . .

-----

Again.. AGAIN..... a season, a play, a series, nor a throw does a career make. Cutler is the better QB. I wasn't upset about the "change of guard" at the coach because of what it would do for 'this year'.. nor was I upset at the changing of the helm at QB because of "this year."

The sum of the whole.

Average QB in the NFL is a good QB if you are comparing him to you and I. Average in the NFL, means you most likely never see the SB. Average doesn't make the play nor take the team on his back. Average is what we have, and average leads you to a career as a place-holder and a future spot as a back-up.

We all know you have a chance to go to the SB with a so-so QB and a great defense. We also know the teams that did that, didn't go back anytime soon. We know that teams with GOOD QBs, have chances to be contenders every year. It will take MUCh longer to build a defense strong enough to make Orton any kind of yearly contender.

Thats the biggest point those that you want to call "haters" have. We aren't haters of Orton, because he's a great guy, a nice guy, and says all the right things. He even admitted/said that the most important thing to a player is reaching that UFA status. He's lookng for a pay-day (surprise I know, who woulda thunk it).

But just because Orton is on the team, and we root for our team on Sunday, doesn't mean I have to be content that our team is being led by a very average QB talent. I have the same stance on RB.. and LB.. and DB.. and OL.. and DT.. and NT. I want the BEST at those positions and won't simply be satisfied with mediocrisy..... especially at the most important position in professional sports. I know they can't all be filled with the best, nor ANY of those being filled with THE best. But that doesn't mean I'm simply going to go "yay yay, we have a guy that won't throw the INT from 0-10 yrd passing game"... :yawn:

Its not enjoyable for me to watch the Broncos when we have such a boring QB. Thats just how I see it.

arapaho2
01-13-2010, 01:32 PM
Oh? So then, Kyle's 21 TDs...12 INTs...86.8 QBR...that is a higher level of "average"?

And Cutler's 27 TDs...26 INTs...76.8 QBR...that would be a "Plummer" average?

-----

i guess if a season defines a career in your eyes:confused:

arapaho2
01-13-2010, 01:40 PM
And that has been the argument of you people: Orton is not Peyton; therefore, he sucks.

I have news for you: "average" is a good QB in the NFL. Otherwise, they
wouldn't be playing in the NFL. You remind me of driving around a $100,000
Corvette, but you want a Lamborghini. Trouble is, the Lambo is a half-million
dollars. So it follows that Lambos are few and far in between. So your
Corvette now sucks. :laugh:

Now, here are the facts: Orton this year's achievements:

* 62.1% comp
* 3,802 yards
* 7.0 YPA
* 21 TD
* 12 INT
* 86.8 QBR

All the while:

* Playing with a compound (through the skin) dislocation of a finger on his throwing hand
several games during the first half of the season

* A high ankle sprain the second half of the season

* Seen playing with two ankles wrapped

* Playing with a substandard O-line

* Playing in a dramatically different offense in only his third year on the field

* Playing with new coaches with new expectations

* Playing with an entirely new team to him


. . . And still he did a fine job by the numbers.

I'll take that kind of "average" any day . . . :coffee:

-----

and again it boils down to how many average qbs have won the superbowl...without a great defense???? what part of this concept is troubling you?

in his third year on the field?? what are you taking the rod standard of only his time on the field counts ...like rivers was a rookie in 06 cause he didnt play until then??

as far as your failed car theory...yeah...if the ultimate win was a race dominated by..lamborghini...and only a couple of corvettes ever won it...id want a lamborghini and would not be happy with a 4rth or 5th place finish ...but you would right?

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 01:43 PM
wow... and people around here said there was a lot of excuses being made for Cutler :shocked:

LRtagger
01-13-2010, 02:34 PM
Damn I wish someone would have told Shanahan how easy it would be to find an elite QB after Elway retired.

G_Money
01-13-2010, 03:03 PM
Griese was leet - what you talkin' bout?

~G

topscribe
01-13-2010, 03:54 PM
When Orton was picked up by the Broncos he was booed during the practices eventually leading to Brandon Marshall's tantrums kicking or hitting the ball away from him.Orton showed what he had prior to any injuries or complicated pass plays yet he beat out Simms and Brandstrater who wasn't really considered to be candidate for the position.NFL analyists based their predictions on what the they saw and therefore expected very little progress downgrading them to 3 or 4 wins at best.Orton did not come in to resurrect the Broncos offense but more to create some foundation and leadership not because of his playmaking abilities.Kubiak who rarely played can be catagorized with the same attributes and was able to use his knowledge to become a great assistant coach for Shanahan.I hear that Orton is good with time management on the field but If you can't score what the purpose. I don't hate Orton because I think he has done the best he can do with his abilities and using the last game as a measuring stick is sugar coating his ineffectiveness in various situations.He turned the ball over during the KC game which were his mistakes forcing the defense to step up and make something happen.We all want this franchise to succeed and at what point does McD pull Orton out of the game and salvage the rest of the season the next time around.

What a crock of absolute crap. Several posters from several different boards
attended the offseason training sessions, and none of them reported the
audience booing Orton during practices. In fact, to a person, they brought
back very complimentary reports on Orton in camp.

*Whew* it's beginning to stink in here . . . :tsk:

-----

topscribe
01-13-2010, 03:59 PM
Again.. AGAIN..... a season, a play, a series, nor a throw does a career make. Cutler is the better QB. I wasn't upset about the "change of guard" at the coach because of what it would do for 'this year'.. nor was I upset at the changing of the helm at QB because of "this year."

The sum of the whole.

Average QB in the NFL is a good QB if you are comparing him to you and I. Average in the NFL, means you most likely never see the SB. Average doesn't make the play nor take the team on his back. Average is what we have, and average leads you to a career as a place-holder and a future spot as a back-up.

We all know you have a chance to go to the SB with a so-so QB and a great defense. We also know the teams that did that, didn't go back anytime soon. We know that teams with GOOD QBs, have chances to be contenders every year. It will take MUCh longer to build a defense strong enough to make Orton any kind of yearly contender.

Thats the biggest point those that you want to call "haters" have. We aren't haters of Orton, because he's a great guy, a nice guy, and says all the right things. He even admitted/said that the most important thing to a player is reaching that UFA status. He's lookng for a pay-day (surprise I know, who woulda thunk it).

But just because Orton is on the team, and we root for our team on Sunday, doesn't mean I have to be content that our team is being led by a very average QB talent. I have the same stance on RB.. and LB.. and DB.. and OL.. and DT.. and NT. I want the BEST at those positions and won't simply be satisfied with mediocrisy..... especially at the most important position in professional sports. I know they can't all be filled with the best, nor ANY of those being filled with THE best. But that doesn't mean I'm simply going to go "yay yay, we have a guy that won't throw the INT from 0-10 yrd passing game"... :yawn:

Its not enjoyable for me to watch the Broncos when we have such a boring QB. Thats just how I see it.

Again . . . again . . . veeerrrrryyyy slowwwllllllyyyy . . . who . . . did . . . the . . .
better . . . job . . . last . . . year?

I'm not into "eh, Cutler is better." That does not cut it anywhere. Who did the
better job?

I am also not interested in your unfounded predictions. I would rather see how
Orton does than to depend on your Tarot readings . . .

-----

roomemp
01-13-2010, 04:11 PM
Again . . . again . . . veeerrrrryyyy slowwwllllllyyyy . . . who . . . did . . . the . . .
better . . . job . . . last . . . year?

I'm not into "eh, Cutler is better." That does not cut it anywhere. Who did the
better job?

I am also not interested in your unfounded predictions. I would rather see how
Orton does than to depend on your Tarot readings . . .

-----

Orton has not had a shot at the playoffs yet. Elite QB's become elite because they show up in the playoffs (In most cases). I am not saying that Orton will become elite if he wins a playoff game, I am just saying, I will not pass judgement until I see him in the post season. He is more than capable of getting the Broncos to the post season

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:11 PM
i guess if a season defines a career in your eyes:confused:

Ahhhh, I expected that. Well, you brought up Plummer.

Now, let's see . . . in three years here, Cutler never had a winning season.

Plummer not only won, but he led the Broncos to the playoffs every single
season he started the complete year.

So I think I would rather Orton be "Plummer-average" than "Cutler-average."


So now, let's go back and look at how Cutler did last year, as opposed to Orton
this year, with what some of you say is the same team (only this year's
schedule was much tougher):

Cutler 2008: 4,526 yds, 7.3 YPA, 62.3%, 25 TDs, 18 INTs, 86.0 QBR.

Orton 2009: 3,802 yds, 7.0 YPA, 62.1%, 21 TDs, 12 INTs, 86.8 QBR.

Astonishingly similar, isn't it? Except Orton had a better INT/TD ratio.

Hmmm . . . maybe just about any QB needs a decent defense to win at the
championship level. Yeah, in fact, I read that somewhere . . . :coffee:

-----

G_Money
01-13-2010, 04:11 PM
What a crock of absolute crap. Several posters from several different boards
attended the offseason training sessions, and none of them reported the
audience booing Orton during practices. In fact, to a person, they brought
back very complimentary reports on Orton in camp.

*Whew* it's beginning to stink in here . . . :tsk:

-----

Um...top...have you really forgotten the booing?


Orton hears a boo
Posted by Mike Florio on August 6, 2009 10:57 PM ET
Broncos quarterback Kyle Orton received a warm welcome from Denver fans during a Thursday night practice at Invesco Field.

The crowd of 13,000-plus loudly booed the former Bear when he threw two interceptions and badly misfired on a pass to receiver Chad Jackson.

Orton has been installed as the starter, for now, following an offseason trade that sent quarterback Jay Cutler to Chicago.

The whole "Orton hears a Boo" thing started there and got worse after the San Fran pre-season game. Whatever you think of the rest, he's not makin that up.

~G

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:14 PM
Um...top...have you really forgotten the booing?



The whole "Orton hears a Boo" thing started there and got worse after the San Fran pre-season game. Whatever you think of the rest, he's not makin that up.

~G

I understand. That was during a preseason game. This guy said during practice.

I read every single report on every board I could: MHR, Mane, here . . . and
I saw nowhere that anybody said Orton was booed during practice . . .

-----

G_Money
01-13-2010, 04:15 PM
The booing started during a scrimmage. That was practice. The post even says THURSDAY NIGHT PRACTICE.

Here, let me help some more and highlight different parts:

http://blog.taragana.com/sports/2009/08/07/kyle-orton-booed-for-2-interceptions-in-his-first-trip-to-invesco-field-as-broncos-qb-18204/


ENGLEWOOD, Colo. — The largest crowd ever to watch a Denver Broncos practice didn’t much like what it saw.

New quarterback Kyle Orton, acquired from Chicago for Pro Bowl passer Jay Cutler in the biggest NFL trade of the offseason, was booed by the crowd of 13,402 at his unofficial debut at Invesco Field when he threw two interceptions and several bad passes during a structured scrimmage Thursday night.

Orton drew the fans’ ire when he was picked off twice by cornerback Andre’ Goodman, the second of which was returned for a long touchdown.

“I had a good day,” Goodman said in a lonely sentiment afterward.

Orton also was jeered when he threw behind receiver Chad Jackson, again when he missed a wide-open Jabar Gaffney in the end zone and also when he floated a pass down the middle that Champ Bailey busted up.

“Fans can cheer. They can boo,” Orton said. “We’ve got good fans, and they’re passionate about their football, that’s for sure.”



Better?

~G

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:17 PM
The booing started during a scrimmage. That was practice. The post even says THURSDAY NIGHT PRACTICE.

~G

Did you read the guy's post? He said practices.

As if Orton was constantly booed. It was an outright lie. :tsk:

Geez.

-----

Thnikkaman
01-13-2010, 04:21 PM
Again . . . again . . . veeerrrrryyyy slowwwllllllyyyy . . . who . . . did . . . the . . .
better . . . job . . . last . . . year?

I'm not into "eh, Cutler is better." That does not cut it anywhere. Who did the
better job?

I am also not interested in your unfounded predictions. I would rather see how
Orton does than to depend on your Tarot readings . . .

-----

http://www.tradejaycutler.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TJC-cutler-tracker-final.PNG

claymore
01-13-2010, 04:22 PM
http://www.tradejaycutler.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TJC-cutler-tracker-final.PNG

I thought he had 28 TD's?

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 04:23 PM
wow... splitting hairs is really making your case.

Again.. I don't give a rat's behind who you thought was better last year. I know Cutler is the better QB.. period. One season doesn't a career make, and everyone in the NFL knows that Orton is not the better QB over Orton. Teams do NOT have to account for Orton to beat them. In fact.... they play defense DARING Orton to try and beat them... HOPING that is what they have accomplished, by forcing our offense to have Orton try and beat them.

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:24 PM
I thought he had 28 TD's?

27.

http://www.nfl.com/players/jaycutler/profile?id=CUT288111
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CutlJa00.htm

-----

claymore
01-13-2010, 04:25 PM
27.

http://www.nfl.com/players/jaycutler/profile?id=CUT288111
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CutlJa00.htm

-----

Yeah, I lumped his rushing td in there on accident.

Lonestar
01-13-2010, 04:25 PM
I'm glad that jays fans are still passionate about him.

It just makes it easier to spot the anyone but jay at QB haters.

Would it be great to have another John absolutely. But he is also gone.

Sine Orton is still young and has almost zero coaching until this year. I'm willing to see what Josh can do with him now that he does not have to devote most of his time in teaching the scheme. Now that he has seen Kyle in action and has legit film on him can set down with him and study and instruct him in the do's anf don'ts for next year.

I just fail to understand why a small minority of members do not get it.

Tom brady was not a HOF QB coming out of college and most likely would have been an "average" qb had he been in any other team.

Why does everyone think he was not lucky to have had time to learn it before being thrown to the wolves. And that Orton should have absorbed all of this before the season started.

I do not get it.
Can some explain why Orton should not get the same courtesy that almost everyone else got.

Josh likes the guy and he has been around some good ones.

Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:26 PM
wow... splitting hairs is really making your case.

Again.. I don't give a rat's behind who you thought was better last year. I know Cutler is the better QB.. period. One season doesn't a career make, and everyone in the NFL knows that Orton is not the better QB over Orton. Teams do NOT have to account for Orton to beat them. In fact.... they play defense DARING Orton to try and beat them... HOPING that is what they have accomplished, by forcing our offense to have Orton try and beat them.

Who I thought did better?

Again . . .

http://www.tradejaycutler.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TJC-cutler-tracker-final.PNG

Sorry, those are not my thoughts . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 04:27 PM
:laugh: :laugh:

again to the ONE year thing.... its almost cute

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:29 PM
:laugh: :laugh:

again to the ONE year thing.... its almost cute

When I talk about how the QBs did during one year . . .

I guess it would then turn out to be a one year thing . . .

Is that some kind of rebuttal, BTW? :lol:

-----

claymore
01-13-2010, 04:29 PM
I'm glad that jays fans are still passionate about him.

It just makes it easier to spot the anyone but jay at QB haters.

Would it be great to have another John absolutely. But he is also gone.

Sine Orton is still young and has almost zero coaching until this year. I'm willing to see what Josh can do with him now that he does not have to devote most of his time in teaching the scheme. Now that he has seen Kyle in action and has legit film on him can set down with him and study and instruct him in the do's anf don'ts for next year.

I just fail to understand why a small minority of members do not get it.

Tom brady was not a HOF QB coming out of college and most likely would have been an "average" qb had he been in any other team.

Why does everyone think he was not lucky to have had time to learn it before being thrown to the wolves. And that Orton should have absorbed all of this before the season started.

I do not get it.
Can some explain why Orton should not get the same courtesy that almost everyone else got.

Josh likes the guy and he has been around some good ones.

Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.
Using that logic we should start Tom Brandstetter next year because he will be ready like Brady was.

And.... JMCD was making sure jock straps were clean when Brady made his NFL debut. So he has nothing to do with greatness.

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:31 PM
Using that logic we should start Tom Brandstetter next year because he will be ready like Brady was.

And.... JMCD was making sure jock straps were clean when Brady made his NFL debut. So he has nothing to do with greatness.

I think JR was saying that Brady was given a chance.

Something Orton has not been given by certain people . . .

-----

claymore
01-13-2010, 04:32 PM
I think JR was saying that Brady was given a chance.

Something Orton has not been given by certain people . . .

-----

1 year. He was drafted, sat on the bench for a year then came in when Bledsoe went down.

Brandstetter should be ready.

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 04:33 PM
When I talk about how the QBs did during one year . . .

I guess it would then turn out to be a one year thing . . .

Is that some kind of rebuttal, BTW? :lol:

-----

You keep turning it back to taht, despite it not being what people were/are talking about ... even the ones you are posting TO. You keep attempting to change it to "who was better this last year" as if thats the ending of who's better. Its laughable at best.. :laugh: GREAT REBUTTAL!!! :Lol:


Oh well. Its a hashed and rehashed debate. I'm sure we'll have to suffer through another season of Orton being our QB before we are finally in a position to go after someone else. I'll just have to :yawn: through another year of his play.

claymore
01-13-2010, 04:35 PM
You keep turning it back to taht, despite it not being what people were/are talking about ... even the ones you are posting TO. You keep attempting to change it to "who was better this last year" as if thats the ending of who's better. Its laughable at best.. :laugh: GREAT REBUTTAL!!! :Lol:


Oh well. Its a hashed and rehashed debate. I'm sure we'll have to suffer through another season of Orton being our QB before we are finally in a position to go after someone else. I'll just have to :yawn: through another year of his play.

I think Ortons ceiling has been realized.

G_Money
01-13-2010, 04:36 PM
1990:
John Elway: 5-11, 15 TD/ 14 INT, 78.5 Rating
Bubby Brister: 9-7, 20 TD/14 INT, 81.6 Rating
Rodney Peete: 4-7, 13 TD/8 INT, 79.8 Rating

Bubby Brister and Rodney Peete for the HOF. Also Jay Schroeder had a better QB rating than Joe Montana that year and Jim Harbaugh was neck and neck with Dan Marino.

*shrugs* I hope this is the start of the climb for Orton as top thinks, and not pretty much the summit (which is what I think).

Orton's gonna be around awhile, IMO, so the more we can get out of him the better.

~G

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:39 PM
You keep turning it back to taht, despite it not being what people were/are talking about ... even the ones you are posting TO. You keep attempting to change it to "who was better this last year" as if thats the ending of who's better. Its laughable at best.. :laugh: GREAT REBUTTAL!!! :Lol:


Oh well. Its a hashed and rehashed debate. I'm sure we'll have to suffer through another season of Orton being our QB before we are finally in a position to go after someone else. I'll just have to :yawn: through another year of his play.

That is your problem: you try to put your own interpretation to what I say. But
then, that has been you M.O., so how could I expect a change?

My argument is not who is better or who will be better in the long run. I
pointed out only who did a better job last year. And that is not debatable.
Which is why you are attempting to distract from it: you have no argument.

And since this is a discussion board, I can talk about what I want, provided it
is on topic. And that is on topic. So I will not necessarily confine my comments
to what "people" (translation: you) are talking about. :coffee:

-----

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 04:40 PM
1990:
John Elway: 5-11, 15 TD/ 14 INT, 78.5 Rating
Bubby Brister: 9-7, 20 TD/14 INT, 81.6 Rating
Rodney Peete: 4-7, 13 TD/8 INT, 79.8 Rating

Bubby Brister and Rodney Peete for the HOF. Also Jay Schroeder had a better QB rating than Joe Montana that year and Jim Harbaugh was neck and neck with Dan Marino.

*shrugs* I hope this is the start of the climb for Orton as top thinks, and not pretty much the summit (which is what I think).

Orton's gonna be around awhile, IMO, so the more we can get out of him the better.

~G

Which goes to show again.... that numbers NEVER EVER EVER tell the true story about the talent played on the field. ALso, why QB rating is one of the DUMBEST stats to use :salute:

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:45 PM
1990:
John Elway: 5-11, 15 TD/ 14 INT, 78.5 Rating
Bubby Brister: 9-7, 20 TD/14 INT, 81.6 Rating
Rodney Peete: 4-7, 13 TD/8 INT, 79.8 Rating

Bubby Brister and Rodney Peete for the HOF. Also Jay Schroeder had a better QB rating than Joe Montana that year and Jim Harbaugh was neck and neck with Dan Marino.

*shrugs* I hope this is the start of the climb for Orton as top thinks, and not pretty much the summit (which is what I think).

Orton's gonna be around awhile, IMO, so the more we can get out of him the better.

~G

I am not grabbing my opinion out of the blue. There are facts on Orton's side:

* He played several games with a severely dislocated finger.
* He played several games with a high ankle sprain.
* He played in a dramatically new system (to everyone else, not just him).
* He played for new coaches with new teammates (again, to one another, as well).
* He completed only his third season on the field, in two different systems.
* Both Shanahan and McDaniels commented that it takes a QB more than a
year to learn a new system.

How could one not expect a better QB out of Orton next year?

-----

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 04:46 PM
I
pointed out only who did a better job last year. And that is not debatable.
Which is why you are attempting to distract from it: you have no argument.
Its absolutely debatable!!! :laugh: YOu continue to try and say that your opinion is FACT!! Thats hilarious! You think your numbers prove fact, you think your QB rating is undeniable PROOF!!!! :lol:

Sorry top... your opinion, despite how many numbers you throw up there, do NOT make it a fact. IT only shows what YOU used to determine whom YOU think is better. If thats your criteria, a one season total and QB rating, great. More power to you.

But don't attempt to tell me that because you throw up numbers your opinion isn't debatable :coffee:

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:47 PM
Its absolutely debatable!!! :laugh: YOu continue to try and say that your opinion is FACT!! Thats hilarious! You think your numbers prove fact, you think your QB rating is undeniable PROOF!!!! :lol:

Sorry top... your opinion, despite how many numbers you throw up there, do NOT make it a fact. IT only shows what YOU used to determine whom YOU think is better. If thats your criteria, a one season total and QB rating, great. More power to you.

But don't attempt to tell me that because you throw up numbers your opinion isn't debatable :coffee:

What part of this

http://www.tradejaycutler.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TJC-cutler-tracker-final.PNG

is not fact?

As I said, Ravage, you give a new meaning to "fantasy football."

-----

G_Money
01-13-2010, 04:50 PM
My argument is not who is better or who will be better in the long run. I
pointed out only who did a better job last year. And that is not debatable.-----

I agree that Orton had a better statistical year than Cutler had, top. I think if you put it to him like that, Ravage would as well.

Whether I think Orton would have done better in Chicago than Cutler did behind that miserable line and with stone-handed receivers is another story, or whether Cutler could have won more games than Orton here.

And going forward, which guy is maxed out in his situation and which isn't? Orton had Marshall, Scheffler, and Royal, which should have made his job easier, and two of those will be gone, replaced with lesser players. He didn't have the run game that he'll need for long-term success, and now will need new players and coaches (and scheme) to get it.

Orton had a better year than Cutler. Will he do it again? Both teams now have personnel problems at WR and OL, so we'll see who patches them better.

I remember a lot of players having better years than even a HOFer like Steve Young had while he was mired in an incompetent org like Tampa Bay. That doesn't make Steve a worse player, just an unluckier one (until he was rescued by SF anyway).

Maybe Orton is the one who was masked by the bad org (Chicago). I just don't think so.

But do you think Orton will be better than Cutler over the next, say, 4 years? I hope so. I also hope he'll be better than Cutler would have been if Jay had stayed.

We won't find out whether the latter is true, but if Orton can stay mediocre and the rest of the team can get better, then him pulling off the former could still work for us.

~G

Thnikkaman
01-13-2010, 04:50 PM
Orton is the guy for 1 or 2 years unless he begins to show signs of brilliance. Cutler isn't.

Orton is not Cutler
Orton is not Elway
Orton is not Montana
Orton is not Brister
Orton is not Plummer.

Nobody is arguing any of this. Weather you chose to be optimistic or pessimistic about this, those are the facts. And unless Marshal gets traded for someone like Mcnabb, he's the guy until coach says otherwise. Its fun to debate, but foolish to think its going to change the facts.

e-Lou-sive1
01-13-2010, 04:51 PM
I said Orton was booed during practice which is true because a scrimmage is an officiated practice session between an offense and a defense each practicing formations and textbook plays.I have played in many scrimmaged sessions in high school some against team mates and other against local schools and each team would run a number of plays testing offenses,defense and special teams.So I am glad that you clarified that I said "practice" for the record.

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 04:52 PM
What part of this

http://www.tradejaycutler.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TJC-cutler-tracker-final.PNG

is not fact?

As I said, Ravage, you give a new meaning to "fantasy football."

-----

and again.. AGAIN.... you try to use the numbers to prove your opinion as fact. The number you throw are facts, the opinion based PURELY on looking at those numbers.. are OPINION. I"m so sorry you don't know the difference between the two. I figured you to know the difference btween fact and opinion. I guess I was wrong.

If those are the numbers that YOU used to determine YOUR opinion... again.. more power to you. If you want to use those number, to form YOUR opinion that Orton is better.... great. Thats your right.

But please, stop telling me that throwing up numbers on a screen PROVES a fact that can't be debated simply because YOU believe the numbers alone prove something. They don't. Just as G-money showed, the stats absolutely do NOT tell who the better QB is on the field.

and THAT, is a fact.

claymore
01-13-2010, 04:53 PM
What part of this

http://www.tradejaycutler.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TJC-cutler-tracker-final.PNG

is not fact?

As I said, Ravage, you give a new meaning to "fantasy football."

-----

It leaves alot out. Like 3rd down percentage, yardage etc... Both QB's were asked to do different things. One was to not screw up (Orton) the other was asked to carry the team (Cutler).

Orton screwed up allot. They just werent in the form of INT's.

The dude had his best year ever. And I doubt it gets any better. I held out hope that he was a smart QB, but I dont think that is true either.

He is a moderatley athletic QB that will get you thru a couple games if your starter goes down.

Thats it.

Thnikkaman
01-13-2010, 04:54 PM
I want to add a few other things. Neither Jay or Orton could score in the Red zone with the ZBS we were running. Orton was dealing with some of the O-Line problems Jay was this past year as well. In spite of the Recievers either QB had available to them, Jay still isn't playing smart football. Now that we don't have a draft pick contingent on Jay's play, I wouldn't mind seeing if he could get over the mental deficiencies that he has put on display.

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:56 PM
It leaves alot out. Like 3rd down percentage, yardage etc... Both QB's were asked to do different things. One was to not screw up (Orton) the other was asked to carry the team (Cutler).

Orton screwed up allot. They just werent in the form of INT's.

The dude had his best year ever. And I doubt it gets any better. I held out hope that he was a smart QB, but I dont think that is true either.

He is a moderatley athletic QB that will get you thru a couple games if your starter goes down.

Thats it.

You've already said all that . . .

-----

Nomad
01-13-2010, 04:57 PM
And.... JMCD was making sure jock straps were clean .

With liquid heat!!:D Remember the Revenge of the Nerds!!:D

FanInAZ
01-13-2010, 04:58 PM
I said this in another tread a while back and I'll say it again. Its great to have a QB that your not afraid of, unless the opposing defense isn't afraid of him either. The pro-Orton fans point out that he does not throw pics that put our defense in tough spots. On the other hand, an offense that can't drive the ball forces their defense to play more then their fair of the minutes. That can by game's end, especially as the wares on, be as hard on a defense as turning the ball over inside your own 20.

We can throw stats that prove our points around all day, but the question is: what do we actually see during the game? The #1 strategy that DCs use against QBs that they don't respect (or RBs that scare them) is to pack 8 and 9 men in the box and then dare the QB to beat them. How often did our opponents used this strategy against us? How often did Orton make them pay for this lack of respect that they showed him?

As to the Orton linch mob, I want to point out this. Why did San Deigo draft Eli Manning whom they were forced to trade for Philp Rivers? Because the gave up on Drew Brees one season too soon. Granted, Brees had much high expectation on him when he came into the league then Orton did. However, my point is that Brees was lable a bust by the Chargers and the Saints fans are glad they did.

claymore
01-13-2010, 04:58 PM
You've already said all that . . .

-----

If you find the original post I said it in I will delete that one. :D

topscribe
01-13-2010, 04:59 PM
and again.. AGAIN.... you try to use the numbers to prove your opinion as fact. The number you throw are facts, the opinion based PURELY on looking at those numbers.. are OPINION. I"m so sorry you don't know the difference between the two. I figured you to know the difference btween fact and opinion. I guess I was wrong.

If those are the numbers that YOU used to determine YOUR opinion... again.. more power to you. If you want to use those number, to form YOUR opinion that Orton is better.... great. Thats your right.

But please, stop telling me that throwing up numbers on a screen PROVES a fact that can't be debated simply because YOU believe the numbers alone prove something. They don't. Just as G-money showed, the stats absolutely do NOT tell who the better QB is on the field.

and THAT, is a fact.

See, you still try to put words into my mouth. You are just not being honest, Ravage.

And I believe you do not like stats simply because you cannot argue with them.

-----

topscribe
01-13-2010, 05:00 PM
If you find the original post I said it in I will delete that one. :D

Hell, Clay, if you want to go back and eliminate all of them, that would go a long
way toward releasing some bandwidth. ;)

-----

claymore
01-13-2010, 05:00 PM
I said this in another tread a while back and I'll say it again. Its great to have a QB that your not afraid of, unless the opposing defense isn't afraid of him either. The pro-Orton fans point out that he does not throw pics that put our defense in tough spots. On the other hand, an offense that can't drive the ball forces their defense to play more then their fair of the minutes. That can by game's end, especially as the wares on, be as hard on a defense as turning the ball over inside your own 20.

We can throw stats that prove our points around all day, but the question is: what do we actually see during the game? The #1 strategy that DCs use against QBs that they don't respect (or RBs that scare them) is to pack 8 and 9 men in the box and then dare the QB to beat them. How often did our opponents used this strategy against us? How often did Orton make them pay for this lack of respect that they showed him?

As to the Orton linch mob, I want to point out this. Why did San Deigo draft Eli Manning whom they were forced to trade for Philp Rivers? Because the gave up on Drew Brees one season too soon. Granted, Brees had much high expectation on him when he came into the league then Orton did. However, my point is that Brees was lable a bust by the Chargers and the Saints fans are glad they did.

They were both Boilermakers! (Orton and Brees)

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 05:01 PM
I said this in another tread a while back and I'll say it again. Its great to have a QB that your not afraid of, unless the opposing defense isn't afraid of him either. The pro-Orton fans point out that he does not throw pics that put our defense in tough spots. On the other hand, an offense that can't drive the ball forces their defense to play more then their fair of the minutes. That can by game's end, especially as the wares on, be as hard on a defense as turning the ball over inside your own 20.

We can throw stats that prove our points around all day, but the question is: what do we actually see during the game? The #1 strategy that DCs use against QBs that they don't respect (or RBs that scare them) is to pack 8 and 9 men in the box and then dare the QB to beat them. How often did our opponents used this strategy against us? How often did Orton make them pay for this lack of respect that they showed him?

As to the Orton linch mob, I want to point out this. Why did San Deigo draft Eli Manning whom they were forced to trade for Philp Rivers? Because the gave up on Drew Brees one season too soon. Granted, Brees had much high expectation on him when he came into the league then Orton did. However, my point is that Brees was lable a bust by the Chargers and the Saints fans are glad they did.

Fair in all points.

But until Orton has that break-out season, we can only judge him based on what we see on the field. That, and potential. Hindsight on Brees is what it is.... but how many times ahve we seen that happen?

:beer: Nice post

G_Money
01-13-2010, 05:01 PM
I am not grabbing my opinion out of the blue. There are facts on Orton's side:

* He played several games with a severely dislocated finger.
* He played several games with a high ankle sprain.
* He played in a dramatically new system (to everyone else, not just him).
* He played for new coaches with new teammates (again, to one another, as well).
* He completed only his third season on the field, in two different systems.
* Both Shanahan and McDaniels commented that it takes a QB more than a
year to learn a new system.

How could one not expect a better QB out of Orton next year?

-----

Because Orton does not play well when injured and whenever he gets a significant amount of time on the field he seems to get injured.

Because his years on the field might be limited, but so is his skillset, so he doesn't have as large a pool to draw from to get better as some QBs do.

Because his receiving talent looks like it will go down and fixing the OL will likely take longer than a year.

On the plus side, our schedule looks easier. But we lost to the Chiefs and the Raiders when it counted most, so easy spots on the schedule don't mean as much as I'd like them to.

What I saw from the offense has to change in order for Orton to improve from here. If our offense CANNOT get the ball 15+ yards downfield because Orton can only hit 1 pass in 4 at that range, then he won't make progress.

We've been booked as a team that can be stuffed at the LOS and doesn't throw a pass further than 10 yards, allowing opposing secondaries to jump routes and cheat into the box. A real running game would help with play-action, but Orton still has to hit on long passes to stretch the field. I know you think he can do it, top, but I still haven't seen it consistently enough to think that opposing Ds should be worried about it.

Orton apparently grumbled that he wants to throw the ball deep more often. We'll find out whether Josh thinks he can be let out of that straight-jacket.

Otherwise he's gonna complete 70+ percent of his short passes again, and we're still not gonna win anything. And then no matter what his rating says or how well he takes care of the ball we'll still be out of luck.

QB progression is not linear. They jump plateaus. Cutler still hasn't jumped his w/r/t turnovers, and Orton hasn't leapt his regarding stretching the field or identifying open receivers beyond 5 yards.

I think Cutler has more of a chance of doing it than Orton does, but I hope Kyle starts to get it this year, in his second year with McDaniels as you say.

~G

arapaho2
01-13-2010, 05:03 PM
Ahhhh, I expected that. Well, you brought up Plummer.

Now, let's see . . . in three years here, Cutler never had a winning season.

Plummer not only won, but he led the Broncos to the playoffs every single
season he started the complete year.

So I think I would rather Orton be "Plummer-average" than "Cutler-average."


So now, let's go back and look at how Cutler did last year, as opposed to Orton
this year, with what some of you say is the same team (only this year's
schedule was much tougher):

Cutler 2008: 4,526 yds, 7.3 YPA, 62.3%, 25 TDs, 18 INTs, 86.0 QBR.

Orton 2009: 3,802 yds, 7.0 YPA, 62.1%, 21 TDs, 12 INTs, 86.8 QBR.

Astonishingly similar, isn't it? Except Orton had a better INT/TD ratio.

Hmmm . . . maybe just about any QB needs a decent defense to win at the
championship level. Yeah, in fact, I read that somewhere . . . :coffee:

-----


uhhm maybe you were back at sunny acres rest home when its was written, but JR brought up plummer not me

im only responding to the fact he was for his career..average...you dont need to like it

and yes cutler never had a winning season ...he also never had a defense that allowed less then 28 points per game in his 2.5 years starting

how did the great orton do this year with his defense allowing 28 or more points???

wow an impressive 0-7

as for them having comparable defenses

.................cutler..08....................... ...orton 09..
total d............29th................................7 th
scoring d.........30th................................12th
sacks..............26th........................... ......10th
ints.................31st......................... ........13th
number of FF......9 ...................................20

claymore
01-13-2010, 05:04 PM
Here is my positive of the day. JMCD Is so smart, he limited Ortons deep balls because it was a contract year!!!

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 05:04 PM
See, you still try to put words into my mouth. You are just not being honest, Ravage.

And I believe you do not like stats simply because you cannot argue with them.

-----

Tell me where I'm lying.

Sorrry, Top... but I'm pointing out EXACTLLY what you are doing, even as G-money said the same thing. YOu want to use your numbers to prove as fact, and thats what you've always done.

Numbers don't tell the story, Top... they never do. Thats something you haven't grasped yet. You think that your numbers tell the story, THUS.. can't be argued. YOu think your numbers are the tell-all and end-all of all debates as if they are the LONE telling facts. They aren't. They never will be.

Cugel
01-13-2010, 05:06 PM
The sum of the whole.

Average QB in the NFL is a good QB if you are comparing him to you and I. Average in the NFL, means you most likely never see the SB. [Note: You might SEE it but you won't WIN it -- EX #1 - Rex Grossman] Average doesn't make the play nor take the team on his back. Average is what we have, and average leads you to a career as a place-holder and a future spot as a back-up.

We all know you have a chance to go to the SB with a so-so QB and a great defense. [Note: Actually you have a chance to WIN the SB with an average QB and an all-time great defense -- or an elite pro-bowl or Hall of Fame QB and a GOOD defense] We also know the teams that did that, didn't go back anytime soon. [Note: Or at all: Bears, Ravens and Bucs were all one-shot winners who never won another SB] We know that teams with GOOD QBs, have chances to be contenders every year. It will take MUCH longer to build a defense strong enough to make Orton any kind of yearly contender. [Note: It's an almost impossible task to build a defense to rival the Bears, Ravens or Bucs championship defenses -- just listing the Hall of Fame players on those teams proves it -- it's happened 3 times since 1986.]

Thats the biggest point those that you want to call "haters" have. We aren't haters of Orton. . . .

But just because Orton is on the team, and we root for our team on Sunday, doesn't mean I have to be content that our team is being led by a very average QB talent. I have the same stance on RB.. and LB.. and DB.. and OL.. and DT.. and NT. I want the BEST at those positions and won't simply be satisfied with mediocrisy..... especially at the most important position in professional sports. I know they can't all be filled with the best, nor ANY of those being filled with THE best. But that doesn't mean I'm simply going to go "yay yay, we have a guy that won't throw the INT from 0-10 yrd passing game"... :yawn:

Its not enjoyable for me to watch the Broncos when we have such a boring QB. Thats just how I see it.

This is 100% exactly correct!

NOBODY outside of Denver thinks Kyle Orton is ever going to be an elite QB. NOBODY! He's mediocre at best. He proved that this year by tanking down the stretch, but really NO NFL coach or GM expected him to do anything different. That's who he's been all his career!

He was a 4th round draft pick. That indicates that NFL GMs did NOT think he was every going to be a starting QB in this league. He lacked arm strength and athleticism and was destined for a short career backing up Rex Grossman.

He then played his way out of Chicago after he unexpectedly was given the starting job after Grossman's career flamed out.

His owner was eager to get rid of him and the Bears jumped at the chance to get rid of him for Cutler -- offering multiple high round draft picks as well as Orton. No other NFL team was interested in him. They certainly weren't beating down the doors to trade for him when the Bears told the world he was available. The question was whether the Bears were going to have to cut him or whether they could get something for him.

Then Denver came around and offered Cutler. 10 teams jumped at the chance to get him. The Bears' offer wasn't even the highest one -- teams like the Jets and Redskins were MIFFED that the Broncos declined to let them get into a bidding war with the Bears and offer even higher draft picks and more players. But, McDaniels wanted Orton over any other available veteran QB.

Well, he started out pretty well, but like the rest of the team crashed like a coke whore after a 3 day bender down the stretch -- finishing the season with a 3 INT performance in the "must win" finale.

If blind allegiance to Orton because he's "better than Cutler" still is the measure of debate, there's no hope for Broncos fans. It's just blindly delusional. Who even cares what Cutler does at this point! Even if Orton were "better than Cutler" (which NOBODY in the NFL believes) what difference would that make?

Would Cutler sucking make Orton a SB caliber QB? What kind of logic is that? :coffee:

Orton is NOT an elite QB and never will be. His entire career, including THIS year proves it.

Cutler might SUCK or become a Hall of Famer. Either way DENVER needs an elite starting QB because NO TEAM without one is going to win the SB.

Period. The delusional can continue to cheer for Orton, but he will NEVER, EVER lead this team to a Championship. The comparisons to Tom Brady are insane. Brady was GREAT by his second year. Orton is in his 5th!

And the sooner the team recognizes that Orton is NOT the answer and gets an elite QB the sooner they have a chance to build a championship team.

"John is gone get used to it?" Well, tough! It takes either a Hall of Fame QB or at least a consistent pro-bowl elite talent at QB to win the SB.

And the history of the last 20 years proves this. The article is RIGHT! Unless you're going to go out and get a defense like the '85-'86 Bears, 2000 Ravens or the 2003 Bucs you're not going to win the SB with a "game manager" QB.

Denver started out the first 6 games on pace to equal the 2002-03 Bucs, and then fell apart. I don't expect ANYBODY seriously thinks Denver's defense can play throughout an entire season like that. And they didn't.

Well, unless that changes because the Broncos suddenly find a bunch of players like Richard Dent and Mike Singletary (Bears), Tony Siragusa and Ray Lewis (Ravens), or Simeon Rice, Dexter Jackson and Warren Sapp (Bucs), Denver's chances of ever winning a SB are essentially ZERO.

Apparently a LOT of fans want to put their head in the sand and deny that but it's just a fact of life in today's NFL. Elite QB, all-time great defense or else go home. :coffee:

Northman
01-13-2010, 05:14 PM
Orton had Marshall, Scheffler, and Royal, which should have made his job easier, and two of those will be gone, replaced with lesser players. He didn't have the run game that he'll need for long-term success, and now will need new players and coaches (and scheme) to get it.



And unfortuantely for Chicago their "elite" Qb did not make their team better at all. Guess we can say it was a wash at this point.

arapaho2
01-13-2010, 05:17 PM
I said this in another tread a while back and I'll say it again. Its great to have a QB that your not afraid of, unless the opposing defense isn't afraid of him either. The pro-Orton fans point out that he does not throw pics that put our defense in tough spots. On the other hand, an offense that can't drive the ball forces their defense to play more then their fair of the minutes. That can by game's end, especially as the wares on, be as hard on a defense as turning the ball over inside your own 20.

We can throw stats that prove our points around all day, but the question is: what do we actually see during the game? The #1 strategy that DCs use against QBs that they don't respect (or RBs that scare them) is to pack 8 and 9 men in the box and then dare the QB to beat them. How often did our opponents used this strategy against us? How often did Orton make them pay for this lack of respect that they showed him?

As to the Orton linch mob, I want to point out this. Why did San Deigo draft Eli Manning whom they were forced to trade for Philp Rivers? Because the gave up on Drew Brees one season too soon. Granted, Brees had much high expectation on him when he came into the league then Orton did. However, my point is that Brees was lable a bust by the Chargers and the Saints fans are glad they did.

the bolts drafted eli manning with the #1 pick because they knew the giants were creaming thier jeans for him.....they knew they could get what they wanted....the giants drafted rivers...the bolts were satisfied with a swap of rivers and eli because the bolts got the #17 in 05..as well as a 2nd rounder which they picked thier kicker

so they got a top round talent qb..shawn merriman and kneading for eli

brees came into the league in the second round...its not like the guy was a #1 pick

and brees left as a ufa...he was not let go or labled a bust???

Northman
01-13-2010, 05:17 PM
This is 100% exactly correct!

NOBODY outside of Denver thinks Kyle Orton is ever going to be an elite QB. NOBODY! He's mediocre at best. He proved that this year by tanking down the stretch, but really NO NFL coach or GM expected him to do anything different. That's who he's been all his career!

He was a 4th round draft pick. That indicates that NFL GMs did NOT think he was every going to be a starting QB in this league. He lacked arm strength and athleticism and was destined for a short career backing up Rex Grossman.

He then played his way out of Chicago after he unexpectedly was given the starting job after Grossman's career flamed out.

His owner was eager to get rid of him and the Bears jumped at the chance to get rid of him for Cutler -- offering multiple high round draft picks as well as Orton. No other NFL team was interested in him. They certainly weren't beating down the doors to trade for him when the Bears told the world he was available. The question was whether the Bears were going to have to cut him or whether they could get something for him.

Then Denver came around and offered Cutler. 10 teams jumped at the chance to get him. The Bears' offer wasn't even the highest one -- teams like the Jets and Redskins were MIFFED that the Broncos declined to let them get into a bidding war with the Bears and offer even higher draft picks and more players. But, McDaniels wanted Orton over any other available veteran QB.

Well, he started out pretty well, but like the rest of the team crashed like a coke whore after a 3 day bender down the stretch -- finishing the season with a 3 INT performance in the "must win" finale.

If blind allegiance to Orton because he's "better than Cutler" still is the measure of debate, there's no hope for Broncos fans. It's just blindly delusional. Who even cares what Cutler does at this point! Even if Orton were "better than Cutler" (which NOBODY in the NFL believes) what difference would that make?

Would Cutler sucking make Orton a SB caliber QB? What kind of logic is that? :coffee:

Orton is NOT an elite QB and never will be. His entire career, including THIS year proves it.

Cutler might SUCK or become a Hall of Famer. Either way DENVER needs an elite starting QB because NO TEAM without one is going to win the SB.

Period. The delusional can continue to cheer for Orton, but he will NEVER, EVER lead this team to a Championship. The comparisons to Tom Brady are insane. Brady was GREAT by his second year. Orton is in his 5th!

And the sooner the team recognizes that Orton is NOT the answer and gets an elite QB the sooner they have a chance to build a championship team.

"John is gone get used to it?" Well, tough! It takes either a Hall of Fame QB or at least a consistent pro-bowl elite talent at QB to win the SB.

And the history of the last 20 years proves this. The article is RIGHT! Unless you're going to go out and get a defense like the '85-'86 Bears, 2000 Ravens or the 2003 Bucs you're not going to win the SB with a "game manager" QB.

Denver started out the first 6 games on pace to equal the 2002-03 Bucs, and then fell apart. I don't expect ANYBODY seriously thinks Denver's defense can play throughout an entire season like that. And they didn't.

Well, unless that changes because the Broncos suddenly find a bunch of players like Richard Dent and Mike Singletary (Bears), Tony Siragusa and Ray Lewis (Ravens), or Simeon Rice, Dexter Jackson and Warren Sapp (Bucs), Denver's chances of ever winning a SB are essentially ZERO.

Apparently a LOT of fans want to put their head in the sand and deny that but it's just a fact of life in today's NFL. Elite QB, all-time great defense or else go home. :coffee:

Uh, no one said Orton was an Elite QB. :lol:

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 05:25 PM
Uh, no one said Orton was an Elite QB. :lol:

No. But the point of the article was the likelihood of winning with a defense or with an elite QB.

Some have stated that we can win with Orton.. and just build the defense around him. Its either building a defense that is like the '85 Bears or 2000 Ravens to win with Orton, or believe Orton can take us to the Super Bowl without such talent on the defense.

If you think we can go to/win a Super Bowl without a 2000 Raven type defense, then you have to believe Orton is an elite QB. If you dont think Orton is elite, then you must think we can build a '85 Bears type defense around him.

If neither is the case, we are left with one option....

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
01-13-2010, 05:36 PM
I loved jay when we drafted him, but I never wanted him to take Plummer's place.

G_Money
01-13-2010, 05:41 PM
And unfortuantely for Chicago their "elite" Qb did not make their team better at all. Guess we can say it was a wash at this point.

Neither guy could rise above his circumstances, true. I would say that Cutler was in a system and team designed to work against him, while Orton was in one designed to work for him.

But I'm done with Cutler - he's not my QB any more. Anybody claiming we made the right choice between the two regardless of circumstance, though, needs a few more playoff wins to sway me, because I believe we could have taught Cutler how to throw a 5 yard pass to a guy in our own jersey more easily than we can teach Orton to be mobile or throw it further than 10 yards downfield.

*shrugs* Still, if you want to call it a wash I don't have a huge need for argument about it. If Cutler and McDaniels couldn't co-exist then it doesn't matter whether Orton was a better option, he's a current option.

I just don't think our next SB-winning QB is on the roster. That means we're gonna have to go get him, sooner or later. In the draft, or FA, or whatever. Personally I'd rather run with Orton out there for a year or two and get the rest of the team polished and shiny, THEN replace Kyle with a better option.

Which naturally means we'll add another QB this year just to mess with me some more. :laugh:

~G

topscribe
01-13-2010, 05:52 PM
Because Orton does not play well when injured and whenever he gets a significant amount of time on the field he seems to get injured.

It seemed to me that Orton played pretty well for the most part, considering
his injuries. Please, you tell me what QB would play as well after a bone has
dislocated and popped through the skin on his passing hand . . . and you can
include Peyton in this one. In fact, I'm not sure how many players would have
played at all with such injuries.

Your implications of "injury-prone" smacks of fragility. Was the hand injury
from fragility? Regarding his high ankle sprain, I would like you to run an
experiment. Lie face down on the field, legs stretched out, and have someone
drop a 35-gallon drum full of oil on your ankles. Then get up and see how
much mobility you have. I don't know of the ankle that would stand up to a
250-350 lb. behemoth dropping directly onto it.


Because his years on the field might be limited, but so is his skillset, so he doesn't have as large a pool to draw from to get better as some QBs do.

In what area? He is smart, tough (as hell), has a strong arm, and is more
accurate and mobile than some would have you believe. He might not be all
the way up there with Peyton, but his skill set isn't necessarily suffering.


Because his receiving talent looks like it will go down and fixing the OL will likely take longer than a year.

Go down where? He didn't have the receivers in 2008 as he will next year.
That is a no-brainer. And if you think McDaniels is going status quo on the
O-line, have you forgotten how he brought in talent this last year . . . with
less time than usual to do it with? That's one thing I believe I can expect from
McDaniels: His O-line will be better.


On the plus side, our schedule looks easier. But we lost to the Chiefs and the Raiders when it counted most, so easy spots on the schedule don't mean as much as I'd like them to.

What I saw from the offense has to change in order for Orton to improve from here. If our offense CANNOT get the ball 15+ yards downfield because Orton can only hit 1 pass in 4 at that range, then he won't make progress.

Orton's completion percentage is

(In yards)

1-10 69.5%
11-20 46.7%
21-30 33.3%
31-40 33.3%

Now, I haven't bothered to compare that to other QBs, but I rest assured
their percentages go down with distance, too. It stands to reason: hitting
a RB on a screen pass is much easier than a receiver on a fly pattern 30 yards
downfield. That's a no-brainer. But that certainly is more than the 25% you
implied.


We've been booked as a team that can be stuffed at the LOS and doesn't throw a pass further than 10 yards, allowing opposing secondaries to jump routes and cheat into the box. A real running game would help with play-action, but Orton still has to hit on long passes to stretch the field. I know you think he can do it, top, but I still haven't seen it consistently enough to think that opposing Ds should be worried about it.

Actually, DCs looked upon the Broncos as not being especially effective at
running, so they didn't usually bother to put more than the standard 7 in the
box. In fact, a couple times both McDaniels and Orton commented on how the
opponent was playing their safeties deep. DCs respect Denver's downfield
game more than what some people here would have you to believe.


Orton apparently grumbled that he wants to throw the ball deep more often. We'll find out whether Josh thinks he can be let out of that straight-jacket.

I hope so. Letting it fly at least a couple times a game, whether or not they
are completed, would go a long way toward serving notice.


Otherwise he's gonna complete 70+ percent of his short passes again, and we're still not gonna win anything. And then no matter what his rating says or how well he takes care of the ball we'll still be out of luck.

Another myth. I was listening to Woodyard talk on 103.4 The Fan when he
said that the "dink and dunk" is the M.O. of most teams now . . . and he was
not talking about the Broncos, but one of the playoff teams. So there must
be something to it in the minds of many OCs.


QB progression is not linear. They jump plateaus. Cutler still hasn't jumped his w/r/t turnovers, and Orton hasn't leapt his regarding stretching the field or identifying open receivers beyond 5 yards.

Gross exaggeration. I guess you have missed most of the season? When Orton
had to pass downfield, I didn't see any particular problem in his identifying
open receivers there. For instance, several of Gaffney's 12 catches in the
final game were well downfield. Apparently, Orton didn't have any trouble
identifying that.


I think Cutler has more of a chance of doing it than Orton does, but I hope Kyle starts to get it this year, in his second year with McDaniels as you say.

I believe Cutler has a bright future ahead of him. If he can get the proper
coaching, he will be a star.

And I hope Kyle improves this year, too. I believe he will. So does McDaniels,
who said he believed he can "coach up" Kyle into improving . . . something he
didn't have to say under the circumstances.

Again, I believe Kyle did a pretty good job in face of all the obstacles handed
to him. As I pointed out, his numbers were strikingly similar to Cutler's numbers
in 2008, and Cutler was not injured . . . and Cutler had the same weapons,
and a better O-line. That is not to say Kyle is ultimately the better QB. I'm
just saying we have plenty reason for hope for our QB: Orton (not Cutler).

-----

FanInAZ
01-13-2010, 05:54 PM
the bolts drafted eli manning with the #1 pick because they knew the giants were creaming thier jeans for him.....they knew they could get what they wanted....the giants drafted rivers...the bolts were satisfied with a swap of rivers and eli because the bolts got the #17 in 05..as well as a 2nd rounder which they picked thier kicker

so they got a top round talent qb..shawn merriman and kneading for eli

brees came into the league in the second round...its not like the guy was a #1 pick

and brees left as a ufa...he was not let go or labled a bust???

Brees' stat line for 2002 & 2003, his 2nd & 3rd season in the league, was as follows:

2002 16 Starts 320-526 (60.8) 3,284 yards (5.9) 17 TDs 16 ints QBR 76.9
2003 11 Starts 205-356 (57.6) 2,108 yards (6.2) 11 TDs 15 ints QBR 67.5

2003 Was the year that San Diego had the fire that forced them to use Jack Murphy Stadium as an emergency evacuation center. Yes, I know that they sold the naming rights to some cooperation. In fact, they've done so several times so I can't keep track of what they are calling it today.

In any case, they moved the Chargers - Dolphins MNF game here to Sun Devil Stadium. I was at that game and Brees, to the delight of the Chargers fans, was benched in favor of Brian Griese. I was talking to a Chargers fan after the game and he was glad. He said that Brees was done.

In 2004, the Chargers wanted to draft a replacement for Brees. By the end of the 2005 season, the Chargers had a dilemma. They had a franchise QB sitting on the bench chopping at the bit wanting to play and a pro-Bowl veteran QB. There was no way they could afford to pay both a pro-Bowl QB salary and a franchise QB salary at the same time. An injury to Brees in the second to the last game of the season gave the Chargers the excuse they needed to solve the problem by letting him go.

LordTrychon
01-13-2010, 06:25 PM
Wow... long thread.

Having just skimmed it... I just want to throw out my one cent...

Great defenses 'come together' from many pieces... whereas you can obtain a QB.

If you draft a great QB... or top 5/10... whatever... in theory, you have him for a decade plus.

I can't think of a single defense that was GREAT for that stretch.

Actually, I can't think of any dominant defenses with decent QBs that won multiple championships... unless Roethlisberger is just decent...

FanInAZ
01-13-2010, 06:35 PM
Wow... long thread.

Having just skimmed it...

:D Just read my postings and you learn all you need to know :D

Lonestar
01-13-2010, 06:50 PM
Using that logic we should start Tom Brandstetter next year because he will be ready like Brady was.

And.... JMCD was making sure jock straps were clean when Brady made his NFL debut. So he has nothing to do with greatness.

Did not say he did nor imply he did.

let me say it again so you will not be confused.

"Josh likes the guy and he has been around some good ones."


as for Brandy IIRC Brady was not a rookie or first year player when he was thrown into the fire.. I believe it was like his third year.. but could be wrong and If I am, I suspect that one of the haters will bring out the actual years.. IIRC Cassel also had 3 years of learning the system, watching film,setting through coaches sessions, having the headset on listening to the plays called and throwing to WR in TC and practice.

Not a mere few months before starting his first game. WITH BTW everyone else having NO experience in the scheme also..

Guess I need to add your name to the dark side. You had been quiet the past few days and I had thought you had mellowed..

G_Money
01-13-2010, 06:52 PM
All of the defenses that did that I can think of were pre-Free-Agency, LT.

It's just too tough to keep all the moving pieces of a defense together if you don't have a guy to build the O around. Even in a scheme that's been installed for over a decade. A great QB will let you mix and match parts on offense to try to cobble victories, but there's no comparable position on D. Elway took us to 3 SBs with navel lint and pocket change on offense. Defense needs consistent players to replace the turnover, as well as a scheme that can be plug-and-play for consistent success while allowing for brilliance with perfectly designed parts.

The Steelers have run basically the same defense forever. They were good forever, but there were times they had a dominant D and times they had merely a good D. Trying to align the stars for the dominant D with the mediocre QBs like Kordell Stewart and Tommy Maddox was just too much. They had to get Ben, have a crackerjack running game, and then they could compete every year and win it all when they got on a roll.

I don't mind installing a defensive scheme and planning on using that for victory over a sustained period - but at some point sustained success is gonna bring Mike Nolan another head coaching gig. It's not like LeBeau who is not aiming for another head coaching job. And Nolan doesn't have a disciple on his staff like Monte Kiffin had with Raheem Morris (who was then left without a Tampa 2 disciple of his own when he got the head coaching gig basically by accident and is now trying to track one down). Or like Jim Johnson had in Sean McDermott.

Or even like Dennison was to zone-blocking guru Gibbs on the other side of the ball.

If Nolan leaves we're gonna have to restructure the D again. It's built around him. That puts us in a somewhat precarious position.

Our head coach is an offensive guy who basically calls his own plays, but doesn't have an elite QB to run them.

Our defensive guy seems to be building a good unit and has been involved in a great unit before, but still has head-coaching aspirations and could leave us as soon as the D becomes great.

So where do we put the effort? Into the O, because the head coach won't be leaving? Or into the D, knowing that the unit we put together out of moving parts that will be swapped via FA like crazy will be made even more precarious by the likely short-term nature of our DC, whether he succeeds (and gets promoted to someone else's head job) or fails (and gets fired with McDaniels)?

I still say build the D first. Ed Donatell is around to take over the D if and when Nolan is a major success as DC again and wants to go fail more as a head coach.

Shanahan spent a decade looking for the next Elway and still may not have been successful. His offenses kept performing for the most part, but his choice of DCs finally came back to destroy him.

If we can build a consistent D then Josh will have time to squeeze every bit of production out of his offense and wait for the right QB to replace Orton with.

Josh won't survive more collapses at the end of seasons the way Shanahan did. He doesn't have the rings. So he can't rebuild on the fly around some kid. Shanahan was wrong perhaps 3 times. McDaniels won't get to be wrong more than once.

If we draft Colt McCoy or someone in this draft, we aren't gonna want to play him until the line is fixed anyway, and we really don't need MORE of a QB controversy than we already have had.

We're not gonna win multiple SBs without an elite QB, but we're not gonna get anywhere with two mediocre sides of the ball, and Josh SHOULD be able to fix his side easily once the personnel is better suited, right? :coffee:

D first. OL second. QB third.

JMO.

~G

Lonestar
01-13-2010, 07:05 PM
Orton is the guy for 1 or 2 years unless he begins to show signs of brilliance. Cutler isn't.

Orton is not Cutler
Orton is not Elway
Orton is not Montana
Orton is not Brister
Orton is not Plummer.

Nobody is arguing any of this. Weather you chose to be optimistic or pessimistic about this, those are the facts. And unless Marshal gets traded for someone like Mcnabb, he's the guy until coach says otherwise. Its fun to debate, but foolish to think its going to change the facts.

and NO ONE has said Orton is anything but Orton with a years experience behind him with a QB coach that can find his ass with either hand .. unlike the moke he had coaching him in Chicago..

It is reasonable to think that he will be better next year than he was this year and considering that he was not BAD this year, that is IMHO something to look forward to..

some will never be happy till John is back in the saddle again.. some still hang from jays jock, those folks will never ever come around to liking Kyle.

spikerman
01-13-2010, 07:14 PM
Gross exaggeration. I guess you have missed most of the season? When Orton
had to pass downfield, I didn't see any particular problem in his identifying
open receivers there. For instance, several of Gaffney's 12 catches in the
final game were well downfield. Apparently, Orton didn't have any trouble
identifying that.
-----

Actually Top, Orton did have problems identifying open receivers in that last game. It was the only one I got to go to so it's the only time I got to see the entire field, but Brandon Stokley was running wide open all day and Orton rarely looked at him. In fact, he often threw it to a covered Gaffney while bypassing Stokley who had nobody within 5-10 yards of him. There were multiple times that Stokley not only was wide open, but further downfield than Gaffney. For some reason Orton was locked on Gaffney all day.

topscribe
01-13-2010, 07:18 PM
Tell me where I'm lying.

Sorrry, Top... but I'm pointing out EXACTLLY what you are doing, even as G-money said the same thing. YOu want to use your numbers to prove as fact, and thats what you've always done.

Numbers don't tell the story, Top... they never do. Thats something you haven't grasped yet. You think that your numbers tell the story, THUS.. can't be argued. YOu think your numbers are the tell-all and end-all of all debates as if they are the LONE telling facts. They aren't. They never will be.

Is G-Money your god, or do you simply have a man-crush on him? Who cares?

If I want to make a point, I make it clearly. If you make something more than
that, then you are being dishonest. I said what I said. Period. If you want to
make more of it, then it is your fabrication.

And again, you don't seem to think numbers tell any of the story. As I said,
you cannot argue with the numbers, so I believe that is why you don't like
them.

-----

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 07:20 PM
People said I could never be happy without John. SOme of the very same posters said I couldn't stop hanging off Elway's jock (the same people can't seem to use different analogies). Funny, when we got a true talent at QB, I was happy.

Now I have ignorance telling me I'm hanging from Jay's jock simply because I know Kyle isn't an above average QB.

Its crap to be accused of hanging off someone's jock simply because you don't enjoy the QB on your current roster. I don't wish Kyle was someone else in particular, I just wish he was someone BETTER :coffee:

topscribe
01-13-2010, 07:22 PM
Actually Top, Orton did have problems identifying open receivers in that last game. It was the only one I got to go to so it's the only time I got to see the entire field, but Brandon Stokley was running wide open all day and Orton rarely looked at him. In fact, he often threw it to a covered Gaffney while bypassing Stokley who had nobody within 5-10 yards of him. There were multiple times that Stokley not only was wide open, but further downfield than Gaffney. For some reason Orton was locked on Gaffney all day.

Thank you. I was not aware of that, being limited to the TV. So that is one
area where Orton does need to improve. Then again, as Orton seemed to imply,
just how vertical is McDaniels allowing him to be? Also, in view of the heavy
pass rush on that day, how much time did Orton have to assay the field? Not
even in the stands can one appreciate what all is going on all at once down on
the field.

Again, that is not to say he does not need to improve in that area. But in a
football game a lot of factors come into consideration.

-----

topscribe
01-13-2010, 07:24 PM
People said I could never be happy without John. SOme of the very same posters said I couldn't stop hanging off Elway's jock (the same people can't seem to use different analogies). Funny, when we got a true talent at QB, I was happy.

Now I have ignorance telling me I'm hanging from Jay's jock simply because I know Kyle isn't an above average QB.

Its crap to be accused of hanging off someone's jock simply because you don't enjoy the QB on your current roster. I don't wish Kyle was someone else in particular, I just wish he was someone BETTER :coffee:

Still on the "average" kick, eh?

"Average" does not tell us a thing, any more than it ever did . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 07:24 PM
Is G-Money your god, or do you simply have a man-crush on him? Who cares?

If I want to make a point, I make it clearly. If you make something more than
that, then you are being dishonest. I said what I said. Period. If you want to
make more of it, then it is your fabrication.

And again, you don't seem to think numbers tell any of the story. As I said,
you cannot argue with the numbers, so I believe that is why you don't like
them.

-----

Yes yes top.. you are the ULTIMATE in communication. Everything you say is Fact.. as you've told us over and over and over again. You are the fact. YOur opinion and observation.. iS FACT. The FACT of the matter is.. you are full of crap and a liar. PERIOD. If you want to make more of it, its FABRICATION.

AGAIN... you purely want to look at the number and nothing else. YOu believe your numbers are the only fact, and your opinion based on those numbers make it fact. You don't like it when people don't use your numbers, because you don't have an argument for them, other than to state they are fact.

I've already displaced your numbers and nothing more than chosen numbers that don't prove SQUAT.. what would I argue more?? That they REALLY REALLY don't prove squat?? :lol:

ITs becoming a joke, top. Your blind homerism for mediocrisy at the QB position is becoming a pattern with you.

spikerman
01-13-2010, 07:26 PM
Thank you. I was not aware of that, being limited to the TV. So that is one
area where Orton does need to improve. Then again, as Orton seemed to imply,
just how vertical is McDaniels allowing him to be? Also, in view of the heavy
pass rush on that day, how much time did Orton have to assay the field? Not
even in the stands can one appreciate what all is going on all at once down on
the field.

Again, that is not to say he does not need to improve in that area. But in a
football game a lot of factors come into consideration.

----- It looked to me like Orton did have some pressure, but not nearly what he faced in the first game against the Chiefs. Hali was pretty quiet for the most part. In Orton's (or McDaniel's) defense, the Broncos did take more shots downfield in that game. It seemed like Orton had enough time (most of the time) to scan the field, but he seemed locked on to Gaffney from the snap. You're right - that is something he has got to improve upon. With Marshall being gone next year, he most likely won't have a "stud" receiver to rely on game after game. He has to learn to spread the ball around.

Ravage!!!
01-13-2010, 07:27 PM
Still on the "average" kick, eh?

"Average" does not tell us a thing, any more than it ever did . . .

-----

yet you keep hanging onto those average QBs. :laugh:

AVERAGE.. blah.. mediocre... run-of-the-mill......everyday... you pick the one that workds best for you. No matter to me.

Kyle is a mediocre starting QB.

Kyle is a run-of-the-mill QB.

Kyle is an average QB.

Kyle is a blah QB.

Kyle is an everyday QB in the league.


YEup.. they all work and sound about right.

Lonestar
01-13-2010, 07:27 PM
OK folks lets try to keep the personal stuff out of the thread and get back to topic..\

:focus:

topscribe
01-13-2010, 07:30 PM
Yes yes top.. you are the ULTIMATE in communication. Everything you say is Fact.. as you've told us over and over and over again. You are the fact. YOur opinion and observation.. iS FACT. The FACT of the matter is.. you are full of crap and a liar. PERIOD. If you want to make more of it, its FABRICATION.

AGAIN... you purely want to look at the number and nothing else. YOu believe your numbers are the only fact, and your opinion based on those numbers make it fact. You don't like it when people don't use your numbers, because you don't have an argument for them, other than to state they are fact.

I've already displaced your numbers and nothing more than chosen numbers that don't prove SQUAT.. what would I argue more?? That they REALLY REALLY don't prove squat?? :lol:

ITs becoming a joke, top. Your blind homerism for mediocrisy at the QB position is becoming a pattern with you.

There you go again, drumming up your fantasies and expressing them as "fact."
See, if you go back and view my posts, you will see how I expressed them. I
stated how you impressed me, how you seemed to be. Then you come back
and talk about how I am, based on your fantasies.

Well, that just seems your M.O. I guess it will never change. :whoknows:

-----

topscribe
01-13-2010, 07:31 PM
yet you keep hanging onto those average QBs. :laugh:

AVERAGE.. blah.. mediocre... run-of-the-mill......everyday... you pick the one that workds best for you. No matter to me.

Kyle is a mediocre starting QB.

Kyle is a run-of-the-mill QB.

Kyle is an average QB.

Kyle is a blah QB.

Kyle is an everyday QB in the league.


YEup.. they all work and sound about right.

To you. :coffee:

-----

Lonestar
01-13-2010, 07:32 PM
OK folks lets try to keep the personal stuff out of the thread and get back to topic..\

:focus:



Lets try this again..

OK folks lets try to keep the personal stuff out of the thread and get back to topic..


:focus:

Will repoen in a few mintues..

Lonestar
01-13-2010, 07:45 PM
now lets try to keep things on topic and not on getting personal in your posts..

perhaps some should beef up their knowledge on "Ignore this person" .. attributes of this VBulletin board.

frenchfan
01-14-2010, 02:32 AM
If we draft Colt McCoy or someone in this draft, we aren't gonna want to play him until the line is fixed anyway, and we really don't need MORE of a QB controversy than we already have had.

We're not gonna win multiple SBs without an elite QB, but we're not gonna get anywhere with two mediocre sides of the ball, and Josh SHOULD be able to fix his side easily once the personnel is better suited, right? :coffee:

D first. OL second. QB third.

JMO.

~GThis is a good plan... Stop complaining about Orton... Everyone here knows he's not an elite QB, but can be decent for a while...

Just build and team first... Then we'll see either if :
a/ Orton turns to be great :shocked:
b/ We find out the next Elway.

But our first priority is not to bench Orton, but to improve our lines (and D overall).
Plus, I do believe that Orton can stay here without a too huge contract (I'll be mad if we offer him a Matt Cassel's contract for sure)... So, that can give us many options to finally build a team... Something we are not anymore (or explain me why we always collapse in the 2nd part of the season :confused: )

And I think there is a point that wasn't made in this thread... Running game... Why do you think McD drafted Moreno?
IMHO, I think a good running game can help an average QB too...
I think football is much more complex than just "elite QB vs elite D"... But there a truth... An average team doesn't often win a SB... You need a strength somewhere...

Peace... :beer:

Lonestar
01-14-2010, 04:46 AM
most super bowl wins are by relatively balanced teams with Great LOS play.

something we have lacked since the immortals retired..

Northman
01-14-2010, 06:27 AM
Neither guy could rise above his circumstances, true. I would say that Cutler was in a system and team designed to work against him, while Orton was in one designed to work for him.

But I'm done with Cutler - he's not my QB any more. Anybody claiming we made the right choice between the two regardless of circumstance, though, needs a few more playoff wins to sway me, because I believe we could have taught Cutler how to throw a 5 yard pass to a guy in our own jersey more easily than we can teach Orton to be mobile or throw it further than 10 yards downfield.

*shrugs* Still, if you want to call it a wash I don't have a huge need for argument about it. If Cutler and McDaniels couldn't co-exist then it doesn't matter whether Orton was a better option, he's a current option.

I just don't think our next SB-winning QB is on the roster. That means we're gonna have to go get him, sooner or later. In the draft, or FA, or whatever. Personally I'd rather run with Orton out there for a year or two and get the rest of the team polished and shiny, THEN replace Kyle with a better option.

Which naturally means we'll add another QB this year just to mess with me some more. :laugh:

~G

Although i think the coaching could of been better for Jay in Chicago i think too many people use that excuse as a crutch when really nothing has changed as far as Jay's decision making with the ball whether it was in Denver or Chicago. So while Jay probably could throw a 5 yd pass one would have to wonder how many of those 5 yarders would go the other way off of interceptions. As for everything else you wrote i totally agree with. I think Kyle is just the guy who will be here until we find the QB we need to go the distance. Im just wondering when those who already know the situation will finally come to terms with that because everytime i log in they act surprised that Orton will be here for at least another year or two. :lol:

Dirk
01-14-2010, 06:37 AM
Like it or not, Kyle is our QB for the interim. Get behind the dude. Geesh!


And no Clay not behind him like you're thinking.....

Dirk
01-14-2010, 06:54 AM
I was wondering if there is a "stat" site that gives all their "other" stats that they always bring up.

The stat I am most interested in is:

How many times we had to punt because our RBs couldn't get a 1st on 3rd and short.

I know it's a stupid thing to ask, but after reading all the Orton this and Orton that, I was curious how many times on a drive we had to punt because coach decided to run it up the middle instead of throwing.

I recall yelling a lot this year at the TV because they would run it when everyone knew they would and it wasn't going to get them anywhere.

This isn't a bash on th O-line or on our running backs but it kind of plays to Orton's ability to "win" the game because if the play calling were different he may have hit Sheff, Royal or Stokes on a short pass for the first.

I know, woulda, coulda, shoulda....

Anyway, just curious.

frenchfan
01-14-2010, 07:03 AM
I was wondering if there is a "stat" site that gives all their "other" stats that they always bring up.

The stat I am most interested in is:

How many times we had to punt because our RBs couldn't get a 1st on 3rd and short.

I know it's a stupid thing to ask, but after reading all the Orton this and Orton that, I was curious how many times on a drive we had to punt because coach decided to run it up the middle instead of throwing.

I recall yelling a lot this year at the TV because they would run it when everyone knew they would and it wasn't going to get them anywhere.

This isn't a bash on th O-line or on our running backs but it kind of plays to Orton's ability to "win" the game because if the play calling were different he may have hit Sheff, Royal or Stokes on a short pass for the first.

I know, woulda, coulda, shoulda....

Anyway, just curious.It seems we weren't really good on short yardage for sure...

That's why I think football is much more complex than this (interesting anyway) debate between 'Elite QB vs Elite D'...
Let's fill our glaring needs before benching Orton IMO...

Northman
01-14-2010, 07:11 AM
I was wondering if there is a "stat" site that gives all their "other" stats that they always bring up.

The stat I am most interested in is:

How many times we had to punt because our RBs couldn't get a 1st on 3rd and short.

I know it's a stupid thing to ask, but after reading all the Orton this and Orton that, I was curious how many times on a drive we had to punt because coach decided to run it up the middle instead of throwing.

I recall yelling a lot this year at the TV because they would run it when everyone knew they would and it wasn't going to get them anywhere.

This isn't a bash on th O-line or on our running backs but it kind of plays to Orton's ability to "win" the game because if the play calling were different he may have hit Sheff, Royal or Stokes on a short pass for the first.

I know, woulda, coulda, shoulda....

Anyway, just curious.


Its not a stupid question. In fact its a valid one. One of our biggest problems the last 5 years was 3rd down conversions. Last year we were actually much better on 3rd downs but that was passing the ball. Problem is, the redzone was still the ultimate problem. I think everything comes into play when it comes to 3rd down conversions. Play calling, line play, RB, and even QB. One of my biggest gripes was that lack of creativity in using Hillis as a FB. Although he evidently wasnt very good at pass blocking i think if he was used to create space for Moreno or Bucky and used on short yardage we could of been much more successful. Obviously, the run blocking was a issue as well but McD said he would re-evaluate his scheme and look to improve in that area. Hopefully, McD does or has learned from this year and makes the necessary adjustments to try and get those issues resolved. Although i dont have the stats for you i know they are pretty dismal. One of my biggest concerns for McD is if he is going to end up like Steve Spurrier. Although i love the fact he holds his players accountable i do often wonder why he feels that he cant utilize current players on the roster. Time will tell but lets hope for the sake of the team he figures it out. :beer:

Dirk
01-14-2010, 07:22 AM
Yeah, I agree! Let's hope that with the coaching changes and 1 year with most players in the system things will be bright next year!!

FanInAZ
01-14-2010, 07:24 AM
I was wondering if there is a "stat" site that gives all their "other" stats that they always bring up.

The stat I am most interested in is:

How many times we had to punt because our RBs couldn't get a 1st on 3rd and short.

I know it's a stupid thing to ask, but after reading all the Orton this and Orton that, I was curious how many times on a drive we had to punt because coach decided to run it up the middle instead of throwing.

I recall yelling a lot this year at the TV because they would run it when everyone knew they would and it wasn't going to get them anywhere.

This isn't a bash on th O-line or on our running backs but it kind of plays to Orton's ability to "win" the game because if the play calling were different he may have hit Sheff, Royal or Stokes on a short pass for the first.

I know, woulda, coulda, shoulda....

Anyway, just curious.

Here are the 3 sites that I use in order of how frequently I quote from them.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/

http://www.nfl.com/

And on very rare occations.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl

NameUsedBefore
01-14-2010, 10:03 AM
One player is easier to find than eleven?

Dat's crazay.

Cugel
01-14-2010, 11:11 AM
I want to add a few other things. Neither Jay or Orton could score in the Red zone with the ZBS we were running. Orton was dealing with some of the O-Line problems Jay was this past year as well. In spite of the Recievers either QB had available to them, Jay still isn't playing smart football. Now that we don't have a draft pick contingent on Jay's play, I wouldn't mind seeing if he could get over the mental deficiencies that he has put on display.

Woah there! The "ZBS system" sure doesn't work in the Red Zone when you have 8 RBs on IR! When Peyton Hillis went down they had to grab a guy out of a phone kiosk and make him the starter (Tatum Bell). Remember?

The OL was young and incredibly talented and they were just STARTING to play together when Shanahan got fired! So there was no real chance to see what they could do, but that offense still managed to be the #2 offense in the NFL in 2008 -- DESPITE not having a running game for most of the season. (Naturally you're going to struggle in the Red Zone if you don't have ANY RBs because they're all on crutches!)

The problem this year is that the Broncos OL were selected for the ZBS and were the best in the league at that system -- but they are NOT a great fit for McDaniels power running attack.

Everyone acknowledges that he's going to have to find some more beefier OL to get the kind of power blocking system he wants.

So, this year's Red Zone troubles aren't the same as previous years.

2005-2007 -- Denver struggled because they needed to rebuild an aging and deteriorating OL.

2008 -- they finally get a bunch of good young players in Clady, Harris and Kuper but lose their entire roster of RBs.

2009 -- McDaniels scraps the ZBS and tries to institute "his" system -- it doesn't work very well because the OL aren't a great match.

Cugel
01-14-2010, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by FanInAZ View Post
I said this in another tread a while back and I'll say it again. Its great to have a QB that your not afraid of, unless the opposing defense isn't afraid of him either. The pro-Orton fans point out that he does not throw pics that put our defense in tough spots. On the other hand, an offense that can't drive the ball forces their defense to play more then their fair of the minutes. That can by game's end, especially as the wares on, be as hard on a defense as turning the ball over inside your own 20.

We can throw stats that prove our points around all day, but the question is: what do we actually see during the game? The #1 strategy that DCs use against QBs that they don't respect (or RBs that scare them) is to pack 8 and 9 men in the box and then dare the QB to beat them. How often did our opponents used this strategy against us? How often did Orton make them pay for this lack of respect that they showed him?

As to the Orton linch mob, I want to point out this. Why did San Deigo draft Eli Manning whom they were forced to trade for Philp Rivers? Because the gave up on Drew Brees one season too soon. Granted, Brees had much high expectation on him when he came into the league then Orton did. However, my point is that Brees was lable a bust by the Chargers and the Saints fans are glad they did.

FanInAZ is absolutely CORRECT and that's the real point!

Tony Dungee talked about the 2007 SB: "We didn't think [Bears QB] Rex Grossman could beat us, so we wanted to get pressure by bringing up defenders to the line and try and force him to beat us with the deep pass."

That's what teams do when they don't respect the QB being able to throw deep on them.

If you watched the games this season you noticed the commentators talk about this problem: "Orton is going to have to throw deep to loosen up the defense."

Only he can't. That's just not his game. And it does no good to say that the league is a 'short passing league now'. That may be true, but offenses NEED to keep defenses honest by being able to throw deep passes on occasion.

That forces defenders NOT to cheat and put 8 men in the box to stuff the run and clamp down on the short pass routes.

They never found the answer for it -- ergo they finished the season 2-8 after the great 6-0 start.
Denver didn't prove that they could handle that kind of pressure defense well and by season's end they were seeing every team try and shut down their offense by stacking the box.

Denver tried to get short passes to Brandon Marshall and then expected him to break tackles and make extra yards. Because Marshall is an amazing talent just beginning to reach his potential it sometimes worked. But, now he's gone and the WRs remaining are just -- ordinary guys. They have some talent, but they're not going to put the FEAR into a defender like Marshall did.

God knows what they're going to do next season without him.

P.S.: Brees was NOT labeled a "bust" S.D. That's flat false. They had drafted Phillip Rivers who was young and talented because Brees was injured and they didn't know if he could recover. Well, he did and led them to the division title.

This led to a flat power fight in S.D. between coach Marty Shottenheimer who wanted to keep Brees and trade Rivers and GM AJ Smith who wanted to do the reverse. Smith won, Shottenheimer was fired and they kept Rivers.

But, either QB would have been equally good in retrospect. Both are in the top 5 QBs in football.

Ravage!!!
01-14-2010, 11:22 AM
Tell the SD Chargrs, the Minnesota Vikings, the NO Saints, and the Indy COlts this is a "short passing league"..... strange how those are all playoff teams...ranked 1 & 2 in their respective divisions.

arapaho2
01-14-2010, 11:28 AM
Brees' stat line for 2002 & 2003, his 2nd & 3rd season in the league, was as follows:

2002 16 Starts 320-526 (60.8) 3,284 yards (5.9) 17 TDs 16 ints QBR 76.9
2003 11 Starts 205-356 (57.6) 2,108 yards (6.2) 11 TDs 15 ints QBR 67.5

2003 Was the year that San Diego had the fire that forced them to use Jack Murphy Stadium as an emergency evacuation center. Yes, I know that they sold the naming rights to some cooperation. In fact, they've done so several times so I can't keep track of what they are calling it today.

In any case, they moved the Chargers - Dolphins MNF game here to Sun Devil Stadium. I was at that game and Brees, to the delight of the Chargers fans, was benched in favor of Brian Griese. I was talking to a Chargers fan after the game and he was glad. He said that Brees was done.

In 2004, the Chargers wanted to draft a replacement for Brees. By the end of the 2005 season, the Chargers had a dilemma. They had a franchise QB sitting on the bench chopping at the bit wanting to play and a pro-Bowl veteran QB. There was no way they could afford to pay both a pro-Bowl QB salary and a franchise QB salary at the same time. An injury to Brees in the second to the last game of the season gave the Chargers the excuse they needed to solve the problem by letting him go.

really your missing the point...brees struggle early in his career...but the bolts were a pretty bad team altogether...you dont get the #1 pick from being a well rounded team do you.

and your point was brees was let go to early...he wasnt let go...he left UFA because the bolts didnt wanna pay two high dollar qbs...had brees not been injured chances are the bolts resign brees and trade rivers. brees was offered a 50 million dollar contract and still left for the saints

and GREISE NEVER PLAYED FOR THE BOLTS...SO I DOUBT BOLT FANS WERE ESTATIC WHEN BREES WAS BENCHED FOR BRIAN GRIESE???:listen:

Cugel
01-14-2010, 11:28 AM
Tell the SD Chargrs, the Minnesota Vikings, the NO Saints, and the Indy COlts this is a "short passing league"..... strange how those are all playoff teams...ranked 1 & 2 in their respective divisions.

I'm NOT arguing that it is-- I merely pointed out that OTHER people argue that: and frankly, you left out the Cardinals which would be the BEST team to prove your point: they still can't run the ball very well, but with Kurt Warner and those amazing WRs they have a chance to win the SB with a great vertical passing game. If they DON'T win it'll be because their defense sucks, not because they can't score points in droves on anybody (they DESTROYED the #2 NFL defense in Green Bay).

Cugel
01-14-2010, 11:35 AM
and GREISE NEVER PLAYED FOR THE BOLTS...SO I DOUBT BOLT FANS WERE ESTATIC WHEN BREES WAS BENCHED FOR BRIAN GRIESE???:listen:

OUCH! Total Pwnage! :laugh:

Griese's career: Broncos-Dolphins-Bucs-Bears-Bucs: 1998-2008 (http://www.nfl.com/players/briangriese/profile?id=GRI028314)

Ravage!!!
01-14-2010, 11:37 AM
I'm NOT arguing that it is-- I merely pointed out that OTHER people argue that: and frankly, you left out the Cardinals which would be the BEST team to prove your point: they still can't run the ball very well, but with Kurt Warner and those amazing WRs they have a chance to win the SB with a great vertical passing game. If they DON'T win it'll be because their defense sucks, not because they can't score points in droves on anybody (they DESTROYED the #2 NFL defense in Green Bay).

Yeah.. I know what you wer saying. I read the same post you did where someone said that the NFL is considered a 'short passing league' now..... and I dont' see it that way. Not when you look at the top teams in the NFL.

AZ is one I did leave off.. and after watching them streak down the field and score 51 points on 57 offensive plays...... doesn't show me a short passing league.

arapaho2
01-14-2010, 11:58 AM
Thank you. I was not aware of that, being limited to the TV. So that is one
area where Orton does need to improve. Then again, as Orton seemed to imply,
just how vertical is McDaniels allowing him to be? Also, in view of the heavy
pass rush on that day, how much time did Orton have to assay the field? Not
even in the stands can one appreciate what all is going on all at once down on
the field.

Again, that is not to say he does not need to improve in that area. But in a
football game a lot of factors come into consideration.

-----

TOP..i dont know if your getting it...yes i believe mcds play calling and schemes were just as much a fault ...but orton did fixate on a wr..typically the first read..no matter what.....you cant honestly say gaffney just suddenly in the last game, after playing in every game..started getting open?...no he was bumped into the 1st read as the #1wr....

what seperates orton from the elite is the ability to see that the second read....the slot wr, or TE might also be open and a better target...he gets fixated on the plays first read whatever or whomever that is

plummer was very good at it on the move...he could see the whole field and even though he might have a easy pass close would see someone open deeper and go there..he just wasnt as accurate or very good in the pocket as some of the best

cutler was excellent in seeing the whole field

what im saying is a a very good qb wil find that open guy even if he isnt the first read more often then not

e-Lou-sive1
01-14-2010, 12:43 PM
Although Elway is among the elite class now, he had very average games the only difference he made plays happen even If he had to run bowlegged and all.One year he ranked second in rushing yardage on the team so a lot of what he did wasn't always in the air.Tell him about playing injured and not being able to play and some of his injuries he had were more severe.Even If Orton is average at best whats to stop him from scrambling out of the backfield and trying to make something happen?Why was Moreno pushing Brandon Marshall on the sidelines it should have been Orton doing this,Elway was always in his players faces making them play harder.I rarely see Orton in any interviews taking responsibilty for the losses or calling players out,you don't have to be elite to possess these leadership skills.He needs to get with Mc Daniels and tell him I was hired to lead this team let me do it without deminishing our chances of winning by pulling out essential personnel.Orton is the one with Mc Daniels in his face and If your a player on this offense you don't want see your qb getting scolded.Reaves did this to Elway and Dan was shown the door.Sports writers tend to glorify athletes as elite or future HOF material players who have one ring or no rings "it just another word people take out of context".

Lonestar
01-14-2010, 12:43 PM
Sure cutler was great at seeing the whole field could be the reason he has had so many picks trying to force balls into double to triple coverage. It wasn't because he was also fixated on the #1 wr either when Eddie and others were wide open undreneath.

Yep jay was so much better than Jake or Kyle.

Time to get off of jays jock.

Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

Ravage!!!
01-14-2010, 12:44 PM
I think its the pre-snap reads that make the difference. Things move so fast during the play, that its the pre-snap reads that let the QB "see the field" and know where the open receiver is going to be, when in their route, after the 1st read is made. Since Orton was so apt to hit that first read, and go after that first read or dump.... I wonder how good Orton is at pre-snap reads.

LordTrychon
01-14-2010, 09:02 PM
Sure cutler was great at seeing the whole field could be the reason he has had so many picks trying to force balls into double to triple coverage. It wasn't because he was also fixated on the #1 wr either when Eddie and others were wide open undreneath.

Yep jay was so much better than Jake or Kyle.

Time to get off of jays jock.

Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

That explains the drop in Marshall's production this year and Eddie having such a great sophomore season. :laugh: ;)

topscribe
01-14-2010, 11:10 PM
That explains the drop in Marshall's production this year and Eddie having such a great sophomore season. :laugh: ;)

I wouldn't say Marshall had a terrific drop in production: 104 rec, 1265 yds,
1.2 avg in 2008, as opposed to 101 rec, 1120 yds, 11.1 avg in 2009.

Actually, if you count that as a drop, then consider Marshall's 2007 numbers:
102 rec, 1,325 yds, 13. avg. So his "drop" has continued every year, and the
first two were by the same quarterback.

Marshall catches the same for Orton as he did for Cutler: facing the QB. He has
not proven a deep threat with either one.

Regarding Eddie, that has been well discussed: He has had trouble with press
coverage and getting open. That can be coached out of him--and I hope his
returning duties are in the past because it has been proven with more than
just him that combination does not work.

Nonetheless, I don't know precisely who is at wrong for Eddie's lack of
production this year, nor how much of the blame one player should take over
another. I haven't made that kind of analysis yet.

Frankly, there is much more going on in a play on the football field than what
the shallow analyses on this board would have one believe. To view a play
and say it's this player's fault or that player's fault without a deep analysis is
to come up with the wrong answer, as has happened repeatedly . . .

-----

FanInAZ
01-15-2010, 12:36 AM
and GREISE NEVER PLAYED FOR THE BOLTS...SO I DOUBT BOLT FANS WERE ESTATIC WHEN BREES WAS BENCHED FOR BRIAN GRIESE???:listen:


OUCH! Total Pwnage! :laugh:

Griese's career: Broncos-Dolphins-Bucs-Bears-Bucs: 1998-2008 (http://www.nfl.com/players/briangriese/profile?id=GRI028314)

Griese did play in that game, for the Dolphins

:tsk: OK, OK; so I blew one :tsk:

When I was trying to remember back to that game, I did remember that Griese was in it. When I went to my favorite research site and found the actual box score for the game, http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200310270sdg.htm, I immediately allowed my preconceived notion get the best of me. As someone who takes pride in mm research ethic, I must say that I'm disappointed that I did not live up to my standards. If you think that I'm taking this lapse to seriously, its because right now I'm also finishing up writing a book that is very important to me. The nature of the book is so politically and religiously sensitive that a lapse of this nature really would be disastrous.

I've been pushing myself to finish it by the end of the month before some group from California that has connections to a publishing company arrives. This is a good reminder to me to slow down and make sure that I have my facts straight. So, why am I spending so much time here when I should be finishing my book?

A) To rest my brain with a subject matter of far less significance.

B) I want to present portions of it here to see if it leads to the kind of constructive dialog that I'm hoping that it will. This dialog will for the most part take place in the religion forum. However, their are portions of it that is of particular concern to the men and women of are armed forces. After all, are politicians keep stick them in the middle of these problems. I their will create a special social group that will be open only to those who are members of our armed forces so I can get their input on my ideas that would effect them the most.

C) Your right, I am spending too much time here.

As far as my assure that Brees was being lable a bust, judge for yourselfs: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sdg/2003.htm

LT was tearing up the league in 2003. 1,645 yards rushing and 13 TDs. 2,370 total yards from scrimmage and 17 TDs. Yet after that loss to Miami, they were 1-6 and 4-12 by the end of the season. They were 2-3 under his replacement, Doug Fluite and 2-9 under Brees. Brees' INTs were up from 2002 while his TDs and QBR was down. That is why at least one Chargers fan, the one I talked to right after the game, declared him a bust.


P.S.: Brees was NOT labeled a "bust" S.D. That's flat false. They had drafted Phillip Rivers who was young and talented because Brees was injured and they didn't know if he could recover. Well, he did and led them to the division title.

This led to a flat power fight in S.D. between coach Marty Shottenheimer who wanted to keep Brees and trade Rivers and GM AJ Smith who wanted to do the reverse. Smith won, Shottenheimer was fired and they kept Rivers.

But, either QB would have been equally good in retrospect. Both are in the top 5 QBs in football.

Yes, he was replaced during the week 9 game against the Bears and was out for the following 5 week. If you say it was because of injury, I'll take your word for it. However, I've only know of one case were a solidly producing player was quickly written of due to one injury. That was Marcus Allen. Everyone knows that Al Davis' benching of him had nothing to do with his injury, but was retribution for what Al considered a lack of loyalty him. Aside from what Davis did to Allen, I've never heard of such a situation occurring. Normally when a star perform gets injured, everyone crosses their fingers and hopes for the best. However, they don't write them off without giving them a chance at a comeback.

One more thing to consider, teams with the #1 pick in the draft is going to choose someone that is going to take over a position that they are not getting satisfactory production from, If Brees was doing a good job and everyone was happy with him, they would have not have used that pick to get another QB.

Dirk
01-15-2010, 06:45 AM
:tsk: OK, OK; so I blew one :tsk:

S'ok bro. It was funny anyway! :salute: