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BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 10:23 AM
The Broncos tendered low offers to S Hamza Abdullah, CB Dominique Foxworth, and CB Karl Paymah.

Teams may be tempted to make a move for former 7th rounder Abdullah. Foxworth and Paymah would bring 3rd rounders, but Foxworth may be involved in trade talks for Shaun Rogers. The Broncos are expected to consider safeties Gibril Wilson, Madieu Williams, and Marquand Manuel in free agency.
Source: Denver Post

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 10:23 AM
Madieu Williams is the real deal... lets hope he comes to Denver... one of the best coverage safeties in the NFL. Very under-rated.

Italianmobstr7
02-27-2008, 11:22 AM
I'm surprised that the talks with Abdullah have come from a potential long term deal, to the lowest RFA tender...

G_Money
02-27-2008, 11:24 AM
Maybe he thinks he's more special than he is.

I agree on Madieu, though - that'd be an interesting FS option, and because he's under-rated, maybe he'd also come in under-paid.

~G

Requiem / The Dagda
02-27-2008, 11:25 AM
On a side note, Kaylore on the Mane is reporting that Myers and the Broncos aren't seeing eye to eye on his overall value. He's restricted, so the Broncos can do whatever, but this could hurt our ability to keep him long term if there is a big discrepancy.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-27-2008, 11:27 AM
Paymah and Foxy got 3rd round tenders, and Myers said he is expected to get that low tender as well (which seems to correspond with what Kaylore says, because the higher the tender, the more you get paid). . . so yeah! Thanks BOSS!

G_Money
02-27-2008, 11:33 AM
Again, Chris Myers is a backup (behind both Nalen AND Hamilton if both return), and if he wants to be paid like a starter then I can see us having problems with that.

I like him as an adequate backup, but not as a starter, so I want a G/C like Hamilton in this draft anyway to prepare for the future. Lichtensteiger is somebody I could happily get behind being Nalen's understudy.

~G

SR
02-27-2008, 11:36 AM
I'd be more than happy to see Abdullah go sign with someone else. He's not that good.

Italianmobstr7
02-27-2008, 11:46 AM
I'd be more than happy to see Abdullah go sign with someone else. He's not that good.

He's not that bad either. The guy flies around the field, and he helped spark our D a little last year. He missed some big tackles, but the more experience he gets, the better he'll get. I want to keep him in a Broncos Uni, and hopefully he can start for us some day.

G_Money
02-27-2008, 11:46 AM
I can't see us letting Abdullah go for just a 7th round pick in return.

If he was giving us a 3rd rounder like Foxy or Paymah then he'd be first on my list to go - I'd go get Woodyard in the draft with the replacement pick and be better off.

My guess is this is just to gauge his value in contract talks. If an agent is saying, "My client is worth far more than you're offering" then you let the market help set the price and bring the agent back to Earth if necessary. Maybe he is more valuable than I think - but I doubt it.

And if Abdullah doesn't want to do a long-term deal, then we let him play a lot this year to either raise his value or prove his flaws, and hit him with a 2nd round tender next year if he does well.

JMO.

~G

CoachChaz
02-27-2008, 11:49 AM
If someone gives up a 3rd round pick for Abdullah, he should lose his job. Overrated

topscribe
02-27-2008, 11:50 AM
He's not that bad either. The guy flies around the field, and he helped spark our D a little last year. He missed some big tackles, but the more experience he gets, the better he'll get. I want to keep him in a Broncos Uni, and hopefully he can start for us some day.

Well, Abdullah started last year. And I assume he will start this year if he's
still around, which he probably will be.

-----

G_Money
02-27-2008, 11:52 AM
If someone gives up a 3rd round pick for Abdullah, he should lose his job. Overrated

*grins* agreed, but all we'd get is a 7th, so it's a moot point. I'm more curious to see if we can pry a 3rd out of some team for Foxy or Paymah if we don't include them in a trade.

I could do some really good things with a 3rd in this draft...

~G

SR
02-27-2008, 11:52 AM
Abdullah's angles are terrible. His anticipation is not there at all. He's just over rated. The guy couldn't tackle a bowl of cereal to save his life.

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 11:56 AM
If they do let Abdullah go for a 7th rounder... It will show us one thing... We will pick Kenny Phillips with our 12th overall pick... because he is a good SS.

CoachChaz
02-27-2008, 12:02 PM
In all honesty, I could care less if we got nothing in return for Abdullah. A 3rd for Foxy if he isn't dealt otherwise would be fine, but I like Paymah in the nickel.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-27-2008, 12:19 PM
Same here Chaz, I think the only reason we're even interested in re-signing Abdullah is because Lynch's situation is still up in the air. Say he left, that means we have Cargile (a Bates guy) and Wodewick Wogers as our safeties.

That's a big problem. If Denver can't get Gibril Wilson in FA; or some other decent veteran, we're in deep doo doo. . .

CoachChaz
02-27-2008, 12:26 PM
Same here Chaz, I think the only reason we're even interested in re-signing Abdullah is because Lynch's situation is still up in the air. Say he left, that means we have Cargile (a Bates guy) and Wodewick Wogers as our safeties.

That's a big problem. If Denver can't get Gibril Wilson in FA; or some other decent veteran, we're in deep doo doo. . .

When Rogers gains a few pounds, I'll be interested. Wilson or Williams in FA would be nice and male me feel better about Lynch retiring and Abdullah disappearing. That would also allow us to draft a safety to fill out the spot with Ferguson and Cargille.

NameUsedBefore
02-27-2008, 01:04 PM
My boy got a 3rd-round tender? Ballin'.

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 01:08 PM
I think we should get rid of Abdullah because he should be a lot better by now considering his NFL experience and high draft pick status.

While we are at it we should get rid of Ryan Harris and and Erik Pears too and replace them with a guy from the MAC conference.

turftoad
02-27-2008, 01:15 PM
I think we should get rid of Abdullah because he should be a lot better by now considering his NFL experience and high draft pick status.
While we are at it we should get rid of Ryan Harris and and Erik Pears too and replace them with a guy from the MAC conference.

Yeah......... because we have so many good safteys waiting in line to replace him.:rolleyes:

Requiem / The Dagda
02-27-2008, 01:44 PM
I think we should get rid of Abdullah because he should be a lot better by now considering his NFL experience and high draft pick status.

While we are at it we should get rid of Ryan Harris and and Erik Pears too and replace them with a guy from the MAC conference.

You keep on bringing up Clady's conference, despite the fact that he's still a top fifteen talent overall. He's a good prospect, his conference means nothing.

G_Money
02-27-2008, 01:53 PM
Boss also keeps bringing up former 7th rounders and UDFAs who've barely played like they're integral parts of our future plans.

Hamza can stay, but he's had a couple of years to try to show what he's got and he's appeared in a bare handful of games and wowed me in none of them. Rogers hasn't set foot on the field.

TD was a 6th rounder who was obviously a talent that fell through the cracks. He was a starter as a rookie.

At some point if a guy is talented he's gonna make it on the field and make an impact. So far, no impact from some guys.

I don't need to kick them to the curb but I'm sure not reserving them a spot on the '08 starting roster. "Eh, I don't need a SS, I've got Abdullah" doesn't sound like a statement that can stand up to a lot of scrutiny.

It's filled with hope, but I wouldn't exactly swear on a stack of bibles that I believe it.

~G

CoachChaz
02-27-2008, 02:08 PM
Logan Mankins did okay coming from the WAC. Brady is also safe behind Kaczur from Toledo. Larry Allen had a decent career coming from Sonoma State. John Tait from BYU. Etc., etc.

I just don't think Clady would be rated overall as first round talent if he wasn't. Yes, there are more studs from bigger schools starting in the NFL, but the same can be said for every position.

fcspikeit
02-27-2008, 02:11 PM
I think we should get rid of Abdullah because he should be a lot better by now considering his NFL experience and high draft pick status.

While we are at it we should get rid of Ryan Harris and and Erik Pears too and replace them with a guy from the MAC conference.


Is this sarcasm?

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 02:13 PM
Logan Mankins did okay coming from the WAC. Brady is also safe behind Kaczur from Toledo. Larry Allen had a decent career coming from Sonoma State. John Tait from BYU. Etc., etc.

I just don't think Clady would be rated overall as first round talent if he wasn't. Yes, there are more studs from bigger schools starting in the NFL, but the same can be said for every position.

Way to rip off some great names there Coach. Clady is no Mankins, who by the way was barely a 1st round pick....if you had to compare them it wouldn't even be close. Mankins dominated teh WAC conference, Clady didn't. Kaczur is not a stud offensive lineman by any means, and then you have Larry Allen and John Trait..... So it the history of WAC conference play you can name 1 or 2 stud offensive lineman and a few decent to average players. I really like the etc. etc... like you can keep rambling off great ones.

CoachChaz
02-27-2008, 02:18 PM
Way to rip off some great names there Coach. Clady is no Mankins...if you had to compare them it wouldn't even be close. Mankins dominated teh WAC conference, Clady didn't. Kaczur is not a stud offensive lineman by any means, and then you have Larry Allen and John Trait..... So it the history of WAC conference play you can name 1 or 2 stud offensive lineman and a few decent to average players. I really like the etc. etc... like you can keep rambling off great ones.

If you want to get historical, you can always find guys from smaller schools. So I'm assuming we should go after Long or Baker simply based on the fact they play in tougher conferences.

Let's just do a complete draft every year by only taking players from major conferences and see where it gets us. Goodbye, Marshall and Sheffler. Judging talent based on the conference is ridiulous.

underrated29
02-27-2008, 02:20 PM
I believe he was being sarcastic.

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 02:21 PM
Ikaika Alama-Francis
Defensive End
Detroit Lions

Jason Elam
Place kicker
Denver Broncos

Kynan Forney
Guard
Atlanta Falcons

Travis LaBoy
Defensive End
Tennessee Titans

Ashley Lelie
Wide Receiver
San Francisco 49ers

Vince Manuwai
Guard
Jacksonville Jaguars

Reagan Mauia
Fullback
Miami Dolphins

Mat McBriar
Punter
Dallas Cowboys

Chad Owens
Wide Receiver
Jacksonville Jaguars

Melila Purcell
Defensive End
Cleveland Browns

Samson Satele
Offensive Lineman
Miami Dolphins

Isaac Sopoaga
Defensive Tackle
San Francisco 49ers

Jeff Ulbrich
Linebacker
San Francisco 49ers

Gerald Alexander
Safety
Detroit Lions

Chris Carr
Cornerback
Oakland Raiders

Daryn Colledge
Offensive Guard
Green Bay Packers

Korey Hall
Running Back
Green Bay Packers

Quintin Mikell
Safety
Philadelphia Eagles

Legedu Naanee
Wide Receiver
San Diego Chargers

Jeb Putzier
Tight End
Houston Texans

Kimo von Oelhoffen
Defensive Tackle
Philadelphia Eagles

Bernard Berrian
Wide Receiver
Chicago Bears

David Carr
Quarterback
Carolina Panthers

Tyrone Culver
Safety
Green Bay Packers

Chris Denman
Offensive Tackle
Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Trent Dilfer
Quarterback
San Francisco 49ers

Therrian Fontenot
Cornerback
Philadelphia Eagles

Vernon Fox
Safety
Washington Redskins

Adam Jennings
Wide Receiver
Atlanta Falcons

Louis Leonard
Defensive Tackle
Cleveland Browns

Logan Mankins
Guard
New England Patriots

Richard Marshall
Cornerback
Carolina Panthers

Marcus McCauley
Cornerback
Minnesota Vikings

Lorenzo Neal
Fullback
San Diego Chargers

Michael Pittman
Running Back
Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Bryan Robinson
Defensive End
Cincinnati Bengals

James Sanders
Safety
New England Patriots

Stephen Spach
Tight End
New England Patriots

Omar Stoutmire
Safety
Washington Redskins

Billy Volek
Quarterback
San Diego Chargers

Paul Williams
Wide Receiver
Tennessee Titans

Sam Williams
Linebacker
Oakland Raiders

Cameron Worrell
Safety
Miami Dolphins

Dwayne Wright
Running Back
Buffalo Bills

Nate Burleson
Wide Receiver
Seattle Seahawks

Jorge Cordova
Linebacker
Tennessee Titans

Harvey Dahl
Offensive Tackle
Atlanta Falcons

Tony Moll
Offensive Tackle
Green Bay Packers

Jeff Rowe
Quarterback
Cincinnati Bengals

Hiram Eugene
Cornerback
Oakland Raiders

Johnathan Holland
Wide Receiver
Oakland Raiders

Luke McCown
Quarterback
Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Ryan Moats
Running Back
Philadelphia Eagles

Tim Rattay
Quarterback
Arizona Cardinals

Josh Scobee
Place kicker
Jacksonville Jaguars

Matt Stover
Place kicker
Baltimore Ravens

Tramon Williams
Cornerback
Green Bay Packers

Antwan Applewhite
Linebacker
San Diego Chargers

Will Demps
Safety
Houston Texans

Heath Farwell
Linebacker
Minnesota Vikings

Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila
Defensive End
Green Bay Packers

La'Roi Glover
Defensive Tackle
St. Louis Rams

Freddie Keiaho
Linebacker
Indianapolis Colts

Matt McCoy
Linebacker
New Orleans Saints

Kirk Morrison
Linebacker
Oakland Raiders

Kassim Osgood
Wide Receiver
San Diego Chargers

Chester Pitts
Offensive Tackle
Houston Texans

Brian Russell
Safety
Seattle Seahawks

Ephraim Salaam
Offensive Tackle
Houston Texans

Kyle Turley
Offensive Tackle
Kansas City Chiefs

Marviel Underwood
Safety
Denver Broncos

Jeff Webb
Wide Receiver
Kansas City Chiefs

Jarrett Bush
Cornerback
Green Bay Packers

Chris Cooley
Tight End
Washington Redskins

Kevin Curtis
Wide Receiver
Philadelphia Eagles

Ade Jimoh
Cornerback
Chicago Bears

Donald Penn
Offensive Tackle
Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Courtney Bryan
Cornerback
Miami Dolphins

Nick Cole
Offensive Lineman
Philadelphia Eagles

Kenton Keith
Running Back
Indianapolis Colts

Tony Wragge
Guard
San Francisco 49ers

Rick DeMulling
Guard
Washington Redskins

Jeff Robinson
Center
Seattle Seahawks

Jake Scott
Guard
Indianapolis Colts

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 02:25 PM
WAC is producing a lot of stud 1st round talent. (sarcasm button)

You are better off taking the risk of drafting anyone from the WAC in the later rounds... do not risk one of the highest 1st round picks Denver has had in quite sometime.

CoachChaz
02-27-2008, 02:30 PM
I still don't see how it's justifiable by any means to completely disregard a player based on his conference. Kind of like passing on Randy Moss because nobody good ever came out of the MAC.

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 02:31 PM
If you want to get historical, you can always find guys from smaller schools. So I'm assuming we should go after Long or Baker simply based on the fact they play in tougher conferences.

Let's just do a complete draft every year by only taking players from major conferences and see where it gets us. Goodbye, Marshall and Sheffler. Judging talent based on the conference is ridiulous.

#1, The USA conference is more talented than the WAC
2nd, Neither Marshall or Sheffler were 1st round picks and therefore the risk was very low.

If you haven't caught on... I'm not saying you can't draft small conference players, but if you are playing the odds in drafting a 1st round talent... stick with the talented players who did well in talented conferences in the 1st round. 1st round grade, small school, weak conference players are just begging to be draft bust.

If we are going OT in the 1st round... give me Chris Williams, Michael Oher, or Jake Long, etc... etc.... any day of the week. Especially when the group of OT in the 2nd round don't differ much from the 1st round grade prospects.

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 02:32 PM
I still don't see how it's justifiable by any means to completely disregard a player based on his conference. Kind of like passing on Randy Moss because nobody good ever came out of the MAC.

Randy Moss dominated his conference. He was a man among boys. He put up outstanding combine #'s. Ryan Clady did not dominate his conference and often struggled against the better teams in his weak conference.

CoachChaz
02-27-2008, 02:34 PM
Randy Moss dominated his conference. He was a man among boys. He put up outstanding combine #'s. Ryan Clady did not dominate his conference and often struggled against the better teams in his weak conference.

Which explains why so many scouts and "experts" are so high on him and have him as a potential top 10 pick. Makes sense.

CoachChaz
02-27-2008, 02:35 PM
#1, The USA conference is more talented than the WAC
2nd, Neither Marshall or Sheffler were 1st round picks and therefore the risk was very low.

If you haven't caught on... I'm not saying you can't draft small conference players, but if you are playing the odds in drafting a 1st round talent... stick with the talented players who did well in talented conferences in the 1st round. 1st round grade, small school, weak conference players are just begging to be draft bust.

If we are going OT in the 1st round... give me Chris Williams, Michael Oher, or Jake Long, etc... etc.... any day of the week. Especially when the group of OT in the 2nd round don't differ much from the 1st round grade prospects.

Williams and Oher play for bad teams...but they are in the SEC, therefore they MUST be studs. Give me a break.

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 02:42 PM
Williams and Oher play for bad teams...but they are in the SEC, therefore they MUST be studs. Give me a break.

Williams and Oher played against much better talent week in and week out. They also practiced with much better talent. The odds of them being NFL ready are much better. They are much more adapt at the speed and talent the NFL will throw at them. By no means am I saying they are guaranteed studs, but if I was a betting man I would put a lot more money on Williams and Oher based on my theory. Take a look at Pro Bowl offensive line for both the AFC and NFC... I bet you that almost every player representing the NFL is from a strong conference and I highly doubt we have that many MAC players in the Pro Bowl.

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 02:45 PM
David Carr or Jay Cutler coach... what guy do you want?

CoachChaz
02-27-2008, 02:51 PM
Tony Romo or Tim Couch

We can play that game all day and go nowhere.

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 02:52 PM
Tony Romo or Tim Couch

We can play that game all day and go nowhere.

Then play fair.... throw me some first rounders. You can't take a undrafted guy or a late round versus a bust in the 1st round... You will have bust every where

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 02:54 PM
Weakest conference in football

Hawaii
Boise State
Fresno State
Nevada
Louisiana Tech
San Jose State
Utah State
New Mexico State
Idaho

yes or no? Why would you draft a guy from this conference unless he absolutely dominates it? You are not doing a good job convincing me Coach and anyone else who like Clady.

Fan in Exile
02-27-2008, 02:55 PM
Williams and Oher played against much better talent week in and week out. They also practiced with much better talent. The odds of them being NFL ready are much better. They are much more adapt at the speed and talent the NFL will throw at them. By no means am I saying they are guaranteed studs, but if I was a betting man I would put a lot more money on Williams and Oher based on my theory. Take a look at Pro Bowl offensive line for both the AFC and NFC... I bet you that almost every player representing the NFL is from a strong conference and I highly doubt we have that many MAC players in the Pro Bowl.

The problem with this is that I don't want our front office playing the odds. I just don't think that's how you make a draft decision. Evaluate the talent and the team need.

Sure statistically speaking there are more guys from the big conferences. But that doesn't help you much when deciding on one player or another.

mclark
02-27-2008, 02:56 PM
Logan Mankins, Fresno State, offensive guard, first round, New England.

New England has 3 players from Fresno State on their current roster.

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 02:58 PM
I don't think you understand what I'm saying Coach. Let me try to explain a little better.

Take the QB situation with Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf.

Both came from good conference, although the SEC was considered a lot stronger then. The Chargers had to decide.... who do we take.... Both guys look extremely talented.... One thing you can do to help you decide: (yes I understand there are other methods) is give the guy more points in the evaluation process based on conference talent. Since the SEC was a very talented conference and Peyton Manning did very well in the talented conference... you would give Peyton Manning more points.

Therefor, to help you decide between two players who show a lot of talent, you go with conference talent.... Chargers should of selected Peyton Manning.

CoachChaz
02-27-2008, 02:58 PM
Weakest conference in football

Hawaii
Boise State
Fresno State
Nevada
Louisiana Tech
San Jose State
Utah State
New Mexico State
Idaho

yes or no? Why would you draft a guy from this conference unless he absolutely dominates it? You are not doing a good job convincing me Coach and anyone else who like Clady.

I think you've made it pretty obvious that NO ONE will convince you otherwise. It's all good...just a difference in opinion.

But...had a guy like Romo or some other small school star been drafted in round 1...would it be a reach if they panned out?

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 02:59 PM
Logan Mankins, Fresno State, offensive guard, first round, New England.

New England has 3 players from Fresno State on their current roster.

How many are 1st rounders? 1, Logan Mankins. and he was the last pick of the 1st round on a team that didn't have many needs... and for some reason... I don't know if using the Patriots is a good measuring tool since they are under investigations for cheating.

fcspikeit
02-27-2008, 03:01 PM
Then play fair.... throw me some first rounders. You can't take a undrafted guy or a late round versus a bust in the 1st round... You will have bust every where


That's pretty much the point!

There aren't many first rounders because most team wont pick guys from smaller schools that high. That doesn't mean the good players taken from those schools weren't worth 1st round picks.

Something tells me if we hadn't kicked the Sooners butt Clady wouldn't even be looked at in the first round..

I read somewhere that the players taken from the smaller schools have a lower % of bust rate. That's because only the best of the best are taken. While the bigger schools have players taken just because they are from a big school..

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 03:02 PM
I think you've made it pretty obvious that NO ONE will convince you otherwise. It's all good...just a difference in opinion.

But...had a guy like Romo or some other small school star been drafted in round 1...would it be a reach if they panned out?

Romo wasn't a 1st rounder... and if he was he would of been a bust considering it took him a few years to develop to what he is today. You can't just throw these small school guys in the NFL and expect them to be great.... it takes them longer to adjust to the speed and talent in the NFL.... Also Romo is over-rated a tad if you as me... he has a great receiver, offensive coach, o-line and running game.

CoachChaz
02-27-2008, 03:03 PM
I don't think you understand what I'm saying Coach. Let me try to explain a little better.

Take the QB situation with Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf.

Both came from good conference, although the SEC was considered a lot stronger then. The Chargers had to decide.... who do we take.... Both guys look extremely talented.... One thing you can do to help you decide: (yes I understand there are other methods) is give the guy more points in the evaluation process based on conference talent. Since the SEC was a very talented conference and Peyton Manning did very well in the talented conference... you would give Peyton Manning more points.

Therefor, to help you decide between two players who show a lot of talent, you go with conference talent.... Chargers should of selected Peyton Manning.


By this rationale, Cleveland made agood choice in taking Couch over McNabb and the Bears were lucky Philly took him because that left CadeMcNown for them. Make sense?

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 03:03 PM
That's pretty much the point!

There aren't many first rounders because most team wont pick guys from smaller schools that high. That doesn't mean the good players taken from those schools weren't worth 1st round picks.

Something tells me if we hadn't kicked the Sooners butt Clady wouldn't even be looked at in the first round..

I read somewhere that the players taken from the smaller schools have a lower % of bust rate. That's because only the best of the best are taken. While the bigger schools have players taken just because they are from a big school..

fcspikeit, the list I provided on the 2nd or 3rd page is every single player currently playing in the NFL from the WAC conference. Sure there is a few 1st round talent guys on that list... but look at that list and tell me you have no problem drafting players out of that conference with the 12th overall pick.

mclark
02-27-2008, 03:06 PM
How many are 1st rounders? 1, Logan Mankins. and he was the last pick of the 1st round on a team that didn't have many needs... and for some reason... I don't know if using the Patriots is a good measuring tool since they are under investigations for cheating.

It just takes one to break the rule. Afterall, we're not asking to make every draft pick from the conference.

I'd take Mankins over any of our current linemen straight across.

The Patriots are the only team that got CAUGHT cheating. I can't believe they are the only team cheating.

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 03:07 PM
By this rationale, Cleveland made agood choice in taking Couch over McNabb and the Bears were lucky Philly took him because that left CadeMcNown for them. Make sense?

Philly was lucky they passed on Ricky Williams... lol Philly fans wanted Ricky.

Oh and great example of a small school, Syracuse and Kentucky... horrible conferences.

G_Money
02-27-2008, 03:07 PM
Where's Big Ben from again?

Wasn't Steve Young from some over-rated passing school in Utah?

LT played in some crap small-conference too, didn't he?

Clady didn't go to a big conference for the same reason Jay didn't go to an SEC school that actually played real football at the time - they aren't currently playing the positions they were recruited at.

Clady played DT in high school. Schools wanted Jay to play safety. Cutler only went to Vandy not because it was an SEC school but because it was an OPTION school - he was supposed to run the ball most of the time, not throw it. And that was the only school that let him play QB. Looks stupid now, but is it Jay's fault Tennessee didn't know he had the best arm in the conference? Would Jay have been a worse pick for us if he'd played at Boise State, because he wasn't getting killed 10 times a week by terrible protection and earning his stripes in a better conference?

Is it Forte's fault that only one D-I school would let him play RB? Imagine what he could have done at Michigan.

Faulting players for having a bad HS coach or a bad recruiting situation gives way more power to recruiting than it deserves.

A great talent can go to a bad school, or in a less-than-perfect conference. Will it leave them with things to learn against better competition? Yes.

Does it automatically downgrade their talent? Hell no.

And the reason Marshall was still available to us was because other people did to him just what you are doing to Clady: downgrading him based on the talent around him instead of rating him based on his talent.

If you don't think Clady is a talent, that's fine.

But don't bother adding, "Because he didn't play in a Real Conference (tm)." It weakens your argument, because his conference isn't his fault - it's the fault of all the Real Conference (tm) recruiting guys that mis-graded him.

~G

fcspikeit
02-27-2008, 03:08 PM
fcspikeit, the list I provided on the 2nd or 3rd page is every single player currently playing in the NFL from the WAC conference. Sure there is a few 1st round talent guys on that list... but look at that list and tell me you have no problem drafting players out of that conference with the 12th overall pick.


Well you can't loop every athlete as the same because they all come from small schools..

Show me where you have Ryan Clady on your list? That is who we are talking about. Vandy was the only school that offered Cutler a scholarship. Beings none of the great football programs seen his worth, does that mean he wasn't any good?

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 03:08 PM
Let's stick to this conference

Hawaii
Boise State
Fresno State
Nevada
Louisiana Tech
San Jose State
Utah State
New Mexico State
Idaho

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 03:11 PM
Well you can't loop every athlete as the same because they all come from small schools..

Show me where you have Ryan Clady on your list? That is who we are talking about. Vandy was the only school that offered Cutler a scholarship. Beings none of the great football programs seen his worth, does that mean he wasn't any good?

I'm not saying Clady isn't a talented prospect... but he is not worth the top 15 pick ranking his is getting. I would feel much safer selecting Chris Williams or Michael Oher... who also receive first round grades... if we must select a 1st round grade OT. If Clady was to slide past 15, actually I wouldn't take him unless he slide past 25, then we are talking an ok risk. His ranking is based on potential and not performance... and I don't like that one bit.

shank
02-27-2008, 03:12 PM
The Broncos tendered low offers to S Hamza Abdullah, CB Dominique Foxworth, and CB Karl Paymah.

Teams may be tempted to make a move for former 7th rounder Abdullah. Foxworth and Paymah would bring 3rd rounders, but Foxworth may be involved in trade talks for Shaun Rogers. The Broncos are expected to consider safeties Gibril Wilson, Madieu Williams, and Marquand Manuel in free agency.
Source: Denver Post

i won't lose any sleep if someone takes foxy off our hands. i like the kid a lot, but i like paymah's physical play more, and a third would be sweet to have.

i think abdullah has potential, and letting him go for a 7th would be a shame. i wonder if they are doing it to help 'motivate' him into signing a longer deal for more money. i bet we'd match any teams offer for abdullah, and not just let him walk for a 7th.

i hope we bring in a FA safety, LB, and WR. then get DT through trade if at all possible, as well as draft or FA. we need at least a couple of DTs brought in.

G_Money
02-27-2008, 03:14 PM
Why don't you get back to me after all the current recruiting classes at Boise go on to the pros? They run a very interesting system there and because of their success they are now getting better recruits than they were getting in the past.

Judging Boise St. players off of their past draft choices is like judging current Rutgers players off of theirs.

The program is different now, so different recruits are coming than ever used to come.

The choice to star at Boise from day 1 or ride the pine at Cal for a year or two might mean that a few more top-tier guys are gonna get drafted from Boise.

Maybe.

Possibly.

~G

mclark
02-27-2008, 03:14 PM
2003
First Round
8 Jordan Gross T Utah Carolina Panthers

Not a great conference. He's turned in to a pretty good pro.

A lot of us were hoping we could sign Gross as a free agent this year. You draft individuals, not conferences.

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 03:15 PM
Where's Big Ben from again?

Wasn't Steve Young from some over-rated passing school in Utah?

LT played in some crap small-conference too, didn't he?

Clady didn't go to a big conference for the same reason Jay didn't go to an SEC school that actually played real football at the time - they aren't currently playing the positions they were recruited at.

Clady played DT in high school. Schools wanted Jay to play safety. Cutler only went to Vandy not because it was an SEC school but because it was an OPTION school - he was supposed to run the ball most of the time, not throw it. And that was the only school that let him play QB. Looks stupid now, but is it Jay's fault Tennessee didn't know he had the best arm in the conference? Would Jay have been a worse pick for us if he'd played at Boise State, because he wasn't getting killed 10 times a week by terrible protection and earning his stripes in a better conference?

Is it Forte's fault that only one D-I school would let him play RB? Imagine what he could have done at Michigan.

Faulting players for having a bad HS coach or a bad recruiting situation gives way more power to recruiting than it deserves.

A great talent can go to a bad school, or in a less-than-perfect conference. Will it leave them with things to learn against better competition? Yes.

Does it automatically downgrade their talent? Hell no.

And the reason Marshall was still available to us was because other people did to him just what you are doing to Clady: downgrading him based on the talent around him instead of rating him based on his talent.

If you don't think Clady is a talent, that's fine.

But don't bother adding, "Because he didn't play in a Real Conference (tm)." It weakens your argument, because his conference isn't his fault - it's the fault of all the Real Conference (tm) recruiting guys that mis-graded him.

~G

All the guys you mentioned did really well in there conferences and how many of them played in the WAC?

Jay Cutler not only played in the SEC, but he did well when it came to playing some of the better talented schools... He actually improved his stock by playing well against very good programs.... Unlike Clady who struggled in games versus better programs.

Nice try guys

mclark
02-27-2008, 03:17 PM
I'm not saying Clady isn't a talented prospect... but he is not worth the top 15 pick ranking his is getting. I would feel much safer selecting Chris Williams or Michael Oher... who also receive first round grades... if we must select a 1st round grade OT. If Clady was to slide past 15, actually I wouldn't take him unless he slide past 25, then we are talking an ok risk. His ranking is based on potential and not performance... and I don't like that one bit.

It's more likely Clady will go in the top 10 than it is he'll go 25.

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 03:18 PM
2003
First Round
8 Jordan Gross T Utah Carolina Panthers

Not a great conference. He's turned in to a pretty good pro.

A lot of us were hoping we could sign Gross as a free agent this year. You draft individuals, not conferences.

lol... you guys can try to pull all the names you want... you will come up with a handful if that many of guys who are actually worthy of a 1st round pick. And if Gross was the #8 overall pick of that draft... he is hardly living up to those very high expectations. Fact is very few WAC conference players turn out to be "studs" and it is a very, very high risk to draft one.

G_Money
02-27-2008, 03:19 PM
Clady is a project like Oher is a project. I'd start both at RT in the beginning and work them around to being LTs.

They're not Joe Thomas.

But they're not going #3 either.

Clady could fall to 25, or be drafted 10th. It all depends on the system he goes to and the coaches he has, and their belief on how much growth is left in his game (IMO, A LOT).

It doesn't have anything to do with the conference he played in.

~G

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 03:19 PM
It's more likely Clady will go in the top 10 than it is he'll go 25.

And who ever takes him will get an average or good player, but far from a Pro Bowl talent... Maybe he can develop into one a 5 to 6 years down the road, but when you take a guy as a top 10 pick... you aren't looking for an average player. You better be getting your money's worth.

G_Money
02-27-2008, 03:21 PM
So if Clady turned out to "only" be Jordan Gross he's now a bust? That's not enough of a stud for you? It's Ogden-or-nothing?

Excuse me, Reality is on the other line, I should really go take this...

~G

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 03:23 PM
Clady is a project like Oher is a project. I'd start both at RT in the beginning and work them around to being LTs.

They're not Joe Thomas.

But they're not going #3 either.

Clady could fall to 25, or be drafted 10th. It all depends on the system he goes to and the coaches he has, and their belief on how much growth is left in his game (IMO, A LOT).

It doesn't have anything to do with the conference he played in.

~G

Sure G... I'm sure no one cares what conference a guy is from. I think we should take Xavier Omon in the 1st round because he dominated Divison II. I'm sure no one took into account that Jay Cutler played well on a very bad team against some of the better SEC teams. I'm sure that Flacco will be taken before Matt Ryan because not only did Flacco put up better numbers, has a far superior arm, but no one cares that he played for Delaware. I'm sure that Matt Forte at 220 + pounds who did amazing at the combine and put up monster stats for Tulane will be considered before Darren McFadden and even back up Felix Jones.

mclark
02-27-2008, 03:25 PM
lol... you guys can try to pull all the names you want... you will come up with a handful if that many of guys who are actually worthy of a 1st round pick. And if Gross was the #8 overall pick of that draft... he is hardly living up to those very high expectations. Fact is very few WAC conference players turn out to be "studs" and it is a very, very high risk to draft one.

Gross just got franchised -- so his team thinks he's living up to a first round billing.

How many guys can we show you from the last ten years who were drafted from big name conferences in the first round (even top 10 picks) who are no longer in the league and who never lived up to their first round billing? I'll bet a lot.

Look at the guys drafted in that first round. Not a lot better than Jordan Gross (clearly not George Foster, from a big time conference).

1 Carson Palmer QB USC Cincinnati Bengals
2 Charles Rogers WR Michigan State Detroit Lions -- COUGH COUGH, SNIFF SNIFF OUT OF LEAGUE
3 Andre Johnson WR Miami (Fla.) Houston Texans
4 Dewayne Robertson DT Kentucky New York Jets -- BEING SHOPPED
5 Terence Newman CB Kansas State Dallas Cowboys
6 Johnathan Sullivan DT Georgia New Orleans Saints -- NOT IN LEAGUE
7 Byron Leftwich QB Marshall Jacksonville Jaguars --- WHAT?
8 Jordan Gross T Utah Carolina Panthers <--- FRANCHISED $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
9 Kevin Williams DE Oklahoma State Minnesota Vikings
10 Terrell Suggs OLB Arizona State Baltimore Ravens
11 Marcus Trufant CB Washington State Seattle Seahawks
12 Jimmy Kennedy DT Penn State St. Louis Rams -- CUT BY DENVER
13 Ty Warren DE Texas A&M New England Patriots
14 Michael Haynes DE Penn State Chicago Bears
15 Jerome McDougle DE Miami (Fla.) Philadelphia Eagles -- SACK HIGH 2
16 Troy Polamalu DB USC Pittsburgh Steelers
17 Bryant Johnson WR Penn State Arizona Cardinals -- MOVING ON
18 Calvin Pace DE Wake Forest Arizona Cardinals -- BEING SHOPPED
19 Kyle Boller QB California Baltimore Ravens -- COUGH
20 George Foster T Georgia Denver Broncos <--- COUGH COUGH
21 Jeff Faine C Notre Dame Cleveland Browns
22 Rex Grossman QB Florida Chicago Bears -- COUGH
23 Willis McGahee RB Miami (Fla.) Buffalo Bills
24 Dallas Clark TE Iowa Indianapolis Colts
25 William Joseph DT Miami (Fla.) New York Giants -- SACK HIGH 2
26 Kwame Harris T Stanford San Francisco 49ers <--- STARTED 0 GAMES LAST YEAR
27 Larry Johnson RB Penn State Kansas City Chiefs
28 Andre Woolfolk CB Oklahoma Tennessee Titans -- 3 CAREER INTERCEPTIONS. STARTED 11 GAMES IN 5 SEASONS
29 Nick Barnett MLB Oregon State Green Bay Packers
30 Sammy Davis CB Texas A&M San Diego Chargers -- STARTED 2 GAMES IN LAST 2 YEARS
31 Nnamdi Asomugha CB California Oakland Raiders
32 Tyler Brayton DE Colorado Oakland Raiders -- 6 SACKS IN 5 YEARS

CoachChaz
02-27-2008, 03:25 PM
Did anyone really think Mankins would be a Pro-Bowl player? Not really. It sounds like you are linking this whole thing to the WAC more than just Clady. Daryn Colledge went in the 2nd round in 06 from Boise State and he has played very well in Green Bay. Clady has a much bigger upside than he did, so I don't see the issue in taking Clady in round one. Apparently neither do a ton of scouts as many teams are torn between drafting Clady or Long first.

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 03:27 PM
So if Clady turned out to "only" be Jordan Gross he's now a bust? That's not enough of a stud for you? It's Ogden-or-nothing?

Excuse me, Reality is on the other line, I should really go take this...

~G

Exacatly... If i'm a GM and I'm picking in the top 15 on the NFL draft... I'm shooting for the stars.. I'm going for Odgen or bust... I want that super stud who is NFL ready right now! The only exception is if a guy comes out of the WAC and just absolutely dominated it to the point you look at him and say, "that guy is a man among boys." I play the odds of going with a guy who not only has just as much talent, but played in a very talented and tough conference. I like my chances of finding that super stud talent in a talent pool than I do a career backup pool.

fcspikeit
02-27-2008, 03:28 PM
I'm not saying Clady isn't a talented prospect... but he is not worth the top 15 pick ranking his is getting. I would feel much safer selecting Chris Williams or Michael Oher... who also receive first round grades... if we must select a 1st round grade OT. If Clady was to slide past 15, actually I wouldn't take him unless he slide past 25, then we are talking an ok risk. His ranking is based on potential and not performance... and I don't like that one bit.

If you don't feel Clady is worth the 12 pick because of his play I can respect that. The same as with any prospect. But it should be about his abilities rather then what school he played for.

To be honest, I am not sold on Clady being a 12th pick either. But that's not because he played for the Broncos. I do however like him more then Williams and Oher. IMO both he and Williams fit our system better then Oher...

G_Money
02-27-2008, 03:35 PM
Sure G... I'm sure no one cares what conference a guy is from. I think we should take Xavier Omon in the 1st round because he dominated Divison II. I'm sure no one took into account that Jay Cutler played well on a very bad team against some of the better SEC teams. I'm sure that Flacco will be taken before Matt Ryan because not only did Flacco put up better numbers, has a far superior arm, but no one cares that he played for Delaware. I'm sure that Matt Forte at 220 + pounds who did amazing at the combine and put up monster stats for Tulane will be considered before Darren McFadden and even back up Felix Jones.

But if Forte puts up better stats than DMC and Jones, you will say "yeah, but he was a 4th rounder, so there's less risk there - he doesn't count as a small school talent success because he wasn't picked in the 1st round."

I mean, that is what you're doing, isn't it?

Where I draft Clady doesn't matter to me - I care about the level of success he achieves. If I can get lucky and get him in the 2nd, then that's great - but it's a matter of comfort then, not talent.

If he's a perennial Pro-Bowler, then everybody who passed on him and drafted other linemen ahead of him screwed up. It's not that his conference and his school couldn't produce a 1st rounder, it's that GMs who thought like you were too scared to risk that pick on a small-school guy - or they had him evaluated wrong.

Clady is not the best September 2008 OT in this draft.

Clady is probably not the best overall September 2010 OT in this draft.

Clady probably does have the highest 2010 ceiling (and beyond) for any OT in this draft for our system. IMO, he does - higher than that of Williams.

Williams might be better in 2008. He might turn out to be better in 2010, and I could be wrong.

But it's sure not as clear-cut as you seem to want to make it for your own peace of mind, because all his level of competition can do is delay his reaching that peak of his talent.

It can't affect that peak either way. Either that peak is sky-high, or it isn't. If it isn't, maybe that would have shown more in the SEC.

But if you believe it really is that high, then why be scared by his conference?

And if you don't believe it, then just say that. "I don't believe he's that talented. Williams has far more talent." And then we can argue about actual player vs. player talent instead of stupid theoretical conference and small-school bashing.

~G

dogfish
02-27-2008, 03:38 PM
so, how 'bout those RFA tender offers, anyways?



:laugh: :lol:

CoachChaz
02-27-2008, 03:38 PM
It comes down to having a guy that can be really good right away or a guy that can be awesome in a few years.

BOSSHOGG30
02-27-2008, 03:40 PM
If you don't feel Clady is worth the 12 pick because of his play I can respect that. The same as with any prospect. But it should be about his abilities rather then what school he played for.

To be honest, I am not sold on Clady being a 12th pick either. But that's not because he played for the Broncos. I do however like him more then Williams and Oher. IMO both he and Williams fit our system better then Oher...

I felt I mentioned that among my many attempts to explain myself... maybe I didn't get that point across.

Why Denver should not draft Ryan Clady

1) Struggled against the better teams in the WAC and teams viewed by the general public as decent college football programs. Clady gave up 3.5 sacks against Washington, 2.5 sacks versus Hawaii, and 2 sacks versus ECU.

2) You don't see many players who do well or live up to the bill from the WAC conference... the WAC conference just isn't talented enough yet. Usually small prospects take longer to adjust to the speed and talent of the NFL.

3) He hurt his peck at the combine... Haven't heard how serious the injury was, but i've seen rumors that it could be a tear, hopefully it is just a strain.

4) I don't think Clady will be successful in the NFL as a left tackle because most scouting reports say he has trouble with speed rushers and as a left tackle in the NFL he will see a lot of speed rushers. The "speed" in the NFL is far superior to the "speed" rushers he played against.

5) Another aspect of his game I'm worried about is another weakness that scouting reports say about him is the fact that he struggles with his run blocking. They say he moves very well and is an excellent pass blocker. Boise State runs an offense similar to the Broncos... which is a actual plus, but Boise State also does a lot more passing and that is Clady's thing... were Denver, although they run a similar offense to Boise State, Denver likes to run more. Unless that is something that is about to chance with the addition of Cutler and Marshall, I don't like the fact that Clady struggles with his run blocking.

6) For a man his size... he should be a lot stronger. His strength is another thing that worrys me. It doesn't worry me enough to were I wouldn't draft him, because strength is something that can be obtained in a weight room, but it does concern me about his work ethics.

G_Money
02-27-2008, 03:44 PM
Exacatly... If i'm a GM and I'm picking in the top 15 on the NFL draft... I'm shooting for the stars.. I'm going for Odgen or bust... I want that super stud who is NFL ready right now! The only exception is if a guy comes out of the WAC and just absolutely dominated it to the point you look at him and say, "that guy is a man among boys." I play the odds of going with a guy who not only has just as much talent, but played in a very talented and tough conference. I like my chances of finding that super stud talent in a talent pool than I do a career backup pool.

Except that Ogden was drafted 4th, and the obvious Ogden-level talents are never available at #12.

You can shoot for it, but you can't be positive that you'll get it. Not at #12 for an OT.

We're LUCKY that this draft is as deep in LTs as it is. In some other drafts Clady would be guaranteed to be gone before #10, small school or no.

At #12, what other super-stud that might be available to us do you like better? Because Williams isn't a super-stud LT out of the gate. Otah is too big to play in our current system well.

Who's the guy who fits us that you're taking over Clady? At any position, even?

Connor? He's less studly than Laurinaitis and Maualuga, so you'd have to think he could miss.

Phillips? As I recall you don't like him.

OOOOHHHH, I get it, this is secretly another J-Stew promotion, because he's a guaranteed super-stud. Got it.

Never mind - now that I understand you can have your thread back. Please change the title tho. TIA.

~G