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broncofaninfla
01-09-2010, 09:54 AM
Memo to Mac: “Shhhh” is the word in the NFL
By JIM ARMSTRONG
This may sound strange coming from a media type who never met a secret he didn’t like to expose, but Josh McDaniels needs to keep things on the hush-hush at Dove Valley.

J-Mac said in his year-end press conference that he wished some issues that hit the headlines in Denver and all points beyond had stayed behind closed doors. Things like, oh, his ongoing feud with Brandon Marshall which resulted in Marshall being benched for the season finale. Or the fact that Tony Scheffler also was benched for attitude issues after telling teammates he was fed up and couldn’t wait for the season to end.

Trouble is, McDaniels is the one who makes the issues public. Which is fine, of course. In fact, it’s highly encouraged by the media corps that covers the Broncos on a daily basis. There’s just one problem: There is going to come the day, probably about two or three months down the road, when McDaniels is going to try to trade both Marshall and Scheffler.

Both are scheduled to become restricted free agents. Technically, the Broncos would have the right to match any offer for both. And if they didn’t match, they would get first- and third-round draft choices for Marshall and a second-rounder for Scheffler. Like I said, technically, that’s how it works in the NFL.

In reality, when a team wants to move a restricted free agent, it works out the best package of draft picks it can get and trades him to a team that wants him. Sometimes, teams overpay for players, as was the case last year when the Cowboys gave up a first-rounder and another draft pick to the Lions for wide receiver Roy Williams.

Let the record show that Williams isn’t half the player Marshall is. But, thanks to all of his issues being hung out to dry like so much dirty laundry, the rest of the league knows the Broncos want to get rid of him. So in all likelihood, they wouldn’t be able to get full value for him. Same with Scheffler, now that the rest of the league’s GMs know he was essentially suspended for attitude issues.

Getting less than full value for players is no way to build a franchise in the NFL. But in the aftermath of the Marshall and Scheffler fiascoes, that’s just what the Broncos are going to get. Maybe, just maybe, McDaniels still can get top dollar for both, but I wouldn’t count on it.

Jim Armstrong: 303-954-1269 or jmarmstrong@denverpost.com

Northman
01-09-2010, 10:00 AM
Marshall's value wont drop. This has been beat to death already.

Nomad
01-09-2010, 10:00 AM
I would agree with Armtrong, some things are better kept in house especially if you're going to shop around the damaged goods!! It's not like the NFL has a Lemon Law on players!!

Northman
01-09-2010, 10:02 AM
I would agree with Armtrong, some things are better kept in house especially if you're going to shop around the damaged goods!! It's not like the NFL has a Lemon Law on players!!


The teams who would be interested in said players would ask why a team was trading them to begin with. Not too mention, Marshall has a long history of being a problem child so it wouldnt be that hard for other teams to put two and two together.

Nomad
01-09-2010, 10:04 AM
The teams who would be interested in said players would ask why a team was trading them to begin with. Not too mention, Marshall has a long history of being a problem child so it wouldnt be that hard for other teams to put two and two together.

True! But I was speaking more on the behalf of Scheffler, we all know the Marshall drama has been, like you said, 'beaten to death'!!

honz
01-09-2010, 11:17 AM
How is McD supposed to keep it in house when 2 of our better offensive weapons are not playing? He has to explain it at some point.

Ravage!!!
01-09-2010, 11:31 AM
We can't say it didn't hurt the value of Marshall.

By going public with the in-house drama, you let everyone know that the relationship between Marshall and McD didn't heal. Now everyone knows "they WILL be getting rid of Marshall" " no way he goes back to that team." If we just used the hamstring reasoning to sit him down, then not even the FANS would be talking about this. Now everyone is.

Instead of another team looking in and seeing a young coach wanting to build HIS team through the draft, and accumulating more picks by sending away pro-bowl QBs and pro-bowl WRs... they see a team that now HAS to get rid of a WR that can't get along with the coach.

It absolutely will give teams teh feeling/comfort to lower the bids knowing that Denver doesn't have a TON of options. If Nothing, it lowers the number of people going after him? I don't know. But there was NOTHING to gain, and everything to lose. Thus, the value did lower.

Northman
01-09-2010, 11:35 AM
We can't say it didn't hurt the value of Marshall.

By going public with the in-house drama, you let everyone know that the relationship between Marshall and McD didn't heal. Now everyone knows "they WILL be getting rid of Marshall" " no way he goes back to that team." If we just used the hamstring reasoning to sit him down, then not even the FANS would be talking about this. Now everyone is.

Instead of another team looking in and seeing a young coach wanting to build HIS team through the draft, and accumulating more picks by sending away pro-bowl QBs and pro-bowl WRs... they see a team that now HAS to get rid of a WR that can't get along with the coach.

It absolutely will give teams teh feeling/comfort to lower the bids knowing that Denver doesn't have a TON of options. If Nothing, it lowers the number of people going after him? I don't know. But there was NOTHING to gain, and everything to lose. Thus, the value did lower.


Again, no it didnt. You act like the NFL is surprised by Marshall's actions. In Sheff's case im sure it raised some eyebrows. But it wasnt like Marshall was a choirboy especially after his early season BS. Teams would lowball Denver anyway because Marshall is a headcase.

Ravage!!!
01-09-2010, 11:39 AM
Again, no it didnt. You act like the NFL is surprised by Marshall's actions. In Sheff's case im sure it raised some eyebrows. But it wasnt like Marshall was a choirboy especially after his early season BS. Teams would lowball Denver anyway because Marshall is a headcase.



Ok North..... :coffee:

Fan in Exile
01-09-2010, 11:41 AM
He wrote the same thing after the Cutler fiasco. Let's be clear it's not like it was ever going to be some kind of secret whether McDaniels said anything or not. Players talk to other players, players talk to agents. Agents talk to everybody. It wasn't going to be secret.

It's also stupid to think that we've lost leverage. Marshall wouldn't be the first pissed off player playing for a team he didn't want to be with because he wasn't a restricted FA. He might even play better for us knowing that in 2011 he would be up for another contract. More than that there are still other teams out there that are going to be bidding against each other because they all need an elite WR.

Tned
01-09-2010, 11:55 AM
How is McD supposed to keep it in house when 2 of our better offensive weapons are not playing? He has to explain it at some point.

Marshall had a pulled hamstring that had already been reported in the press. The press were already saying it seemed unlikely he would play, so McDaniels had absolutely no need to say anything about Marshall other than he was getting treatement and it would be a gametime decision.

As to Scheffler, based on the info we have, it seems like a spiteful move to bench him, especially when you are so short on receivers, but again he could have been scratched the day of the game, and then deal with the questions afterwards, rather than making it a distraction two days before the game.

The way McDaniels handles these types of situations are some of the main areas he needs to improve in. He can't keep getting into public pissing contests with players. He needs to keep his dirty laundry in house, not try and prove to the world he's the boss.

Also, if he did bench Scheffler because someone overheard him saying he couldn't wait for the season to be over, then shame on McD. If his play and preperation was 'good enough' to play prior to the comment, then the comment should not have been a reason to bench him.

SoCalImport
01-09-2010, 11:56 AM
Whether all of marshals antics/friction with Coach will effect what teams are willing to offer for him is something we will never know for sure.
There WILL BE offers and they will be good ones, so all we can guess at is how much more they may have been willing to give up without all the drama.

as stated many times. T.O. always had teams willing to do whatever it took to get him.



BTW. My only real complaint regarding Coach JMCD so far is that he's to forthcoming to the media. So I agree with what's being said in that regard.

BroncoAV06
01-09-2010, 11:57 AM
My question is, is every player that has a problem going to be treated this way? Not everyone is "perfect" and people get attitudes and will have problems. Will McDaniels grow as a coach and be able to handle these situations with out wanting to trade away everybody?

Rah, rah, team is great and all, good for a 20 point blow out at home. Big off season, look forward to who McD is going to bring in and the development of this team overall.

Northman
01-09-2010, 12:04 PM
Also, if he did bench Scheffler because someone overheard him saying he couldn't wait for the season to be over, then shame on McD. If his play and preperation was 'good enough' to play prior to the comment, then the comment should not have been a reason to bench him.

I disagree. When you make it a point to try and poison the lockeroom or show other players you are ready to give up then i would be benching his ass too. Man, i know a lot of you guys are great people but i cant help but feel disgusted at how some of you think its ok for the players to absolutely behave like this. Im happy that finally we have a coach again who is making players accountable for their actions. For me personally, i would rather know which players want to be Broncos and which ones rather be elsewhere.

Tned
01-09-2010, 12:10 PM
I disagree. When you make it a point to try and poison the lockeroom or show other players you are ready to give up then i would be benching his ass too. Man, i know a lot of you guys are great people but i cant help but feel disgusted at how some of you think its ok for the players to absolutely behave like this. Im happy that finally we have a coach again who is making players accountable for their actions. For me personally, i would rather know which players want to be Broncos and which ones rather be elsewhere.

There is no evidence he was poisoining the locker room. What we have been told is that he made one comment. If he was busting his butt in practice, but unhappy with how McDaniels was running the team, well welcome to the real world. That happens every day, in the NFL and elsewhere.

All that matters is whether he was putting the effort in on the practice field and on Sunday.

The whole "want to be Broncos" and "want to play for the team, not money" is way overblown and garbage. Every NFL player plays for money. That's why there's so much free agency movement. These guys don't say, man, I really want to be a Titan, who cares how much they pay me.

NFL players aren't fans like us, they are in a business, just like the coaches and the team owners. There is nothing more overblown by fans than the "doesn't want to play for this team" statements.

Northman
01-09-2010, 12:13 PM
There is no evidence he was poisoining the locker room. What we have been told is that he made one comment. If he was busting his butt in practice, but unhappy with how McDaniels was running the team, well welcome to the real world. That happens every day, in the NFL and elsewhere.

All that matters is whether he was putting the effort in on the practice field and on Sunday.

The whole "want to be Broncos" and "want to play for the team, not money" is way overblown and garbage. Every NFL player plays for money. That's why there's so much free agency movement. These guys don't say, man, I really want to be a Titan, who cares how much they pay me.

NFL players aren't fans like us, they are in a business, just like the coaches and the team owners. There is nothing more overblown by fans than the "doesn't want to play for this team" statements.


Although i agree about the free agency thing. Its not overblown about players wanting to play for a team or organization. There are hundreds of players who dont behave like those two dolts.

Ravage!!!
01-09-2010, 12:17 PM
I'm pretty sure we always had a coach that made players accountable for their actions.... just didn't throw the laundry out to the media. Thats where we need him to mature, on.

We don't really know what Scheff's comments were. We do know that the coach didn't tell him why he was being sat, or that he was being sat. We DO know that the coach went to the media, unnecessarily, instead of taking better alternatives.

If you, as a coach, are going to preach accountability and sit players on the most important game of the season BECAUSE of such reasons, then you can NOT turn around in the same week and make mistakes that make you SO accountable.

Nothing was to be gained by airing anything to the press. NOTHING is ever, EVER, gained by questioning a player's toughness publicly to the media.

When you see problems occur time and time again with a coach and the players... there is only one common denominator. I'm disgusted taht some of you think its ok for a coach to behave like this, simply because he isn't our past coach.

Ravage!!!
01-09-2010, 12:20 PM
Although i agree about the free agency thing. Its not overblown about players wanting to play for a team or organization. There are hundreds of players who dont behave like those two dolts.

Even Orton said the most important thing for a player is reaching that UFA (or something very similar to that).

Tned
01-09-2010, 12:22 PM
Although i agree about the free agency thing. Its not overblown about players wanting to play for a team or organization. There are hundreds of players who dont behave like those two dolts.

This is a business, players want to play for an organization as long as they are paid fairly (based on their talent), treated with respect and the team is winning or is on the track to winning.

I'm not saying there is no such thing as a bad apple, and 'maybe' Marshall and/or Scheffler are bad apples (we don't really know), but the "he doesn't want to play for the team" is probably the most overused and misused phrase on this or any message board.

Tned
01-09-2010, 12:24 PM
Even Orton said the most important thing for a player is reaching that UFA (or something very similar to that).

Wiegmen, who was praised as the example of professionalism this off season, said give me a raise or I will retire. Doesn't sound like he was playing for the "love of the team".

Northman
01-09-2010, 12:26 PM
Wiegmen, who was praised as the example of professionalism this off season, said give me a raise or I will retire. Doesn't sound like he was playing for the "love of the team".

There's a difference between wanting a raise and quitting on the team. Im sure even a smart guy such as yourself can figure that one out.

Tned
01-09-2010, 12:29 PM
There's a difference between wanting a raise and quitting on the team. Im sure even a smart guy such as yourself can figure that one out.

Sorry, didn't realize we were going to get personal, so I'll think of a witty, cutting comment as a comeback for your 'smart guy' snipe and get back to you on that.

In the meantime, my non-personal reply: Who quit on the team? Give me a concrete example of how Marshall or Scheffler quite on the team last week.

Northman
01-09-2010, 12:33 PM
Sorry, didn't realize we were going to get personal, so I'll think of a witty, cutting comment as a comeback for your 'smart guy' snipe and get back to you on that.

In the meantime, my non-personal reply: Who quit on the team? Give me a concrete example of how Marshall or Scheffler quite on the team last week.


Scheff said he wanted the season over. That means he was packing it in it just doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Marshall, after being told he needed to step up and make plays (dropping passes,etc) all of a sudden got a hammy injury, then excused himself from practice because he was too cold. Again, packing it in. But please, go on and spin it some more about how its everyone else's fault except for those two players. Im enjoying the laugh today.

Tned
01-09-2010, 12:39 PM
Scheff said he wanted the season over. That means he was packing it in it just doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Marshall, after being told he needed to step up and make plays (dropping passes,etc) all of a sudden got a hammy injury, then excused himself from practice because he was too cold. Again, packing it in. But please, go on and spin it some more about how its everyone else's fault except for those two players. Im enjoying the laugh today.

Marshall 'was' the offense the last quarter of the season. Did you watch any of the games? He clearly wasn't packing it in or giving up on the field. As to the injury, neither you nor I know if he was faking the hamstring injury.

As to Scheff, the one comment that we have heard about 4th hand, is not an indication that he was 'packing it in'. A player can still bust his butt for his current team, but still be glad when the season is over because he isn't happy about how he is being used.

Plenty of people in and out of football are unhappy in their current situation, and voice that to co-workers/friends, but still have a good work ethic and do their best until they move on to another job/team.

Something you guys don't get is that these guys aren't fans of the team, they are employees. They might have respect for their fellow teammates and go out there and give their all for their team mates, but they aren't fans like us, they are making a living.

broncofaninfla
01-09-2010, 12:42 PM
How is McD supposed to keep it in house when 2 of our better offensive weapons are not playing? He has to explain it at some point.

He could have suited them but not played them like he did Hillis all season long...

BroncoAV06
01-09-2010, 12:47 PM
How is it all those two players fault then? I don't like the way things went down at all. Scheff should of handled himself better but the frustration of not being a bigger part of the offense got to him and he paid for it. And what Marshall planned from traning camp to wait until the last week of the season to tank it? 100 rec is not making plays? How about telling the defense to stop the run?

Alot of blame to go around alot of things that should of been handled differently as said by the head coach himself. That is why you can al least have hope forthe future is McD sees what works and what dosn't as he plans for the future.

Poet
01-09-2010, 12:50 PM
Marshall missing a must win game because of a hamstring issue and then being put up for trade wouldn't raise eyebrows?

If I was a team that wanted a WR but wasn't up for issues that Marshall has brought I would listen to talks. But, those guys have been doing this for a long time, and for a living. A lot of the fans have the good sense to know better, why do you think the general managers and owners wouldn't?

Don't mistake not caring for not knowing.

Northman
01-09-2010, 12:54 PM
How is it all those two players fault then? I don't like the way things went down at all. Scheff should of handled himself better but the frustration of not being a bigger part of the offense got to him and he paid for it.

A lot of players get frustrated yet none of them were begging for the season to end. Yes, he paid the price for opening his gums. But then again, i dont think he cared to much to begin with.



And what Marshall planned from traning camp to wait until the last week of the season to tank it? 100 rec is not making plays? How about telling the defense to stop the run?


Its clear that Marshall wanted out anyway. He simply went out and raised his stock so that he can get his payday. But when realizing that Denver most likely wasnt going to make the playoffs he packed it in for the last game of the year. I dont give a shit what anybody says on here. Marshall is a headcase and will always be a headcase. He is only in it for himself so we get what we can for him and move on. Let someone else deal with his BS. As for Sheff, might be able to get some potato chips for him unless he trips on a sprinkler head and hurts himself or something.

TXBRONC
01-09-2010, 01:00 PM
He could have suited them but not played them like he did Hillis all season long...

He would been asked questions after the game.

Tned
01-09-2010, 01:13 PM
He would been asked questions after the game.

Better to field questions after the game, then have the team badgered by reporters for two games leading up to the game.

Poet
01-09-2010, 01:18 PM
Better to field questions after the game, then have the team badgered by reporters for two games leading up to the game.

Better to show his team that malcontents will be dealt with promptly and accordingly IMO.

BroncoAV06
01-09-2010, 01:19 PM
Its clear that Marshall wanted out anyway. He simply went out and raised his stock so that he can get his payday. But when realizing that Denver most likely wasnt going to make the playoffs he packed it in for the last game of the year. I dont give a shit what anybody says on here. Marshall is a headcase and will always be a headcase. He is only in it for himself so we get what we can for him and move on. Let someone else deal with his BS. As for Sheff, might be able to get some potato chips for him unless he trips on a sprinkler head and hurts himself or something.

I don't think anyone is denying that Marshall is a head case. It just sucks to see the Broncos lose a talented wide out because he had to get into it with the coach. But your right, who gives a shit?

Tned
01-09-2010, 01:19 PM
Better to show his team that malcontents will be dealt with promptly and accordingly IMO.

Dealt with via the press? I don't think that's what 'his team' wants to see him do.

Poet
01-09-2010, 01:24 PM
Dealt with via the press? I don't think that's what 'his team' wants to see him do.

It didn't matter. When he was going to bench Marshall and Scheff that was it. It was going to be a big deal in the media regardless.

TBH, he could have handled it better, but he could have handled it much worse. It's his team, and for the most part his locker room doesn't seem to have an issue with it.

I've seen coaches go the other extreme....I ever tell you about a coach named Marvin Lewis? ;)

Northman
01-09-2010, 01:27 PM
I don't think anyone is denying that Marshall is a head case. It just sucks to see the Broncos lose a talented wide out because he had to get into it with the coach. But your right, who gives a shit?

When it comes to Marshall, not me. Knowing that guys like Smith, McCaffery, etc would of been the consumate teammates in those situations calms my nerves about guys like Brandon. I know he is just a rare fly in the ointment when it comes to flavor clowns and malcontents. Get ready for TO2 whoever takes Marshall on their squad. A whole lot of problems and no rings.

Tned
01-09-2010, 01:27 PM
It didn't matter. When he was going to bench Marshall and Scheff that was it. It was going to be a big deal in the media regardless.

TBH, he could have handled it better, but he could have handled it much worse. It's his team, and for the most part his locker room doesn't seem to have an issue with it.

I've seen coaches go the other extreme....I ever tell you about a coach named Marvin Lewis? ;)

Maybe as the offseason progresses and players leave the Broncos as free agents and such, we will get more details about what really happened. Right now, a lot of assumptions are being made from a small number of public words.

Poet
01-09-2010, 01:32 PM
Maybe as the offseason progresses and players leave the Broncos as free agents and such, we will get more details about what really happened. Right now, a lot of assumptions are being made from a small number of public words.

That's a fair point, and I'm as guilty of it as anyone else.

But man, it sure gives us something to talk about! :salute:

Tned
01-09-2010, 01:36 PM
That's a fair point, and I'm as guilty of it as anyone else.

But man, it sure gives us something to talk about! :salute:

Yep, thank God for that. Regardless of what really went down in the locker room, McDaniels has ensured that there will be lots of fodder for the message board this offseason.

Northman
01-09-2010, 01:37 PM
Yep, thank God for that. Regardless of what really went down in the locker room, McDaniels has ensured that there will be lots of fodder for the message board this offseason.


McDaniels? How bout the Broncos will ensure there is fodder for the message board.

Tned
01-09-2010, 01:46 PM
McDaniels? How bout the Broncos will ensure there is fodder for the message board.

The 'Broncos' don't seem to be who keep dropping bombs in the press.

As you have seen, I am primarily a McDaniels supporter. However, he has made mistakes, and getting into public pissing contests with players is one of his mistakes.

Northman
01-09-2010, 01:48 PM
The 'Broncos' don't seem to be who keep dropping bombs in the press.

As you have seen, I am primarily a McDaniels supporter. However, he has made mistakes, and getting into public pissing contests with players is one of his mistakes.

But the Broncos give him the ammo to do it. That is my point. Plenty of blame to go around.

Tned
01-09-2010, 01:58 PM
But the Broncos give him the ammo to do it. That is my point. Plenty of blame to go around.

McDaniels decided to air the team's dirtly laundry in public, not the players. Even after the incident, Scheffler wasn't airing it in public. He was even scheduled to be on with Vic and Gary the morning after the game he was benched, when they hoped to get 'his side' but he cancelled with them saying he decided not to air it publically.

If Royal or Stokely or Hilis or another player had come out and blasted the coach for playing favorites or whatever, you woldn't be blaming it on McDaniels, you would be blaming it on the players that talked to the press.

Why here do you excuse the person that aired the dirty laundry, and blame those that you haven't heard from?

TXBRONC
01-09-2010, 01:58 PM
Better to field questions after the game, then have the team badgered by reporters for two games leading up to the game.

I agree.

Northman
01-09-2010, 02:00 PM
McDaniels decided to air the team's dirtly laundry in public, not the players. Even after the incident, Scheffler wasn't airing it in public. He was even scheduled to be on with Vic and Gary the morning after the game he was benched, when they hoped to get 'his side' but he cancelled with them saying he decided not to air it publically.

If Royal or Stokely or Hilis or another player had come out and blasted the coach for playing favorites or whatever, you woldn't be blaming it on McDaniels, you would be blaming it on the players that talked to the press.

Why here do you excuse the person that aired the dirty laundry, and blame those that you haven't heard from?

I didnt excuse McDaniels. But i do believe him considering the history with those said players.

Tned
01-09-2010, 02:03 PM
I didnt excuse McDaniels. But i do believe him considering the history with those said players.

Ok, well it seems you are unconditionally backing McDaniels as doing nothing wrong, and blaming everything that has gone wrong on a couple players.

To be clear, you think him having a public pissing contests with a couple players two days before the final game of the season was a smart move? The best way to make sure the team was focused for the game?

TXBRONC
01-09-2010, 02:03 PM
Better to show his team that malcontents will be dealt with promptly and accordingly IMO.

And he had to do that publically? I don't think so.

It's hypocritical to tell your players to keep things in house and then go out publicly rip them.

Poet
01-09-2010, 02:32 PM
And he had to do that publically? I don't think so.

It's hypocritical to tell your players to keep things in house and then go out publicly rip them.

I can only imagine that it would be hard to 'quietly' ban a TE and star WR from the stadium.

And being a hypocrite isn't always bad. If I'm a long time smoker who tells kids to never smoke but I still do I'm a hypocrite.

dogfish
01-09-2010, 02:36 PM
How is McD supposed to keep it in house when 2 of our better offensive weapons are not playing? He has to explain it at some point.

he shoulda used the wookie defense, that one always gets 'em. . .

Tned
01-09-2010, 02:41 PM
I can only imagine that it would be hard to 'quietly' ban a TE and star WR from the stadium.

And being a hypocrite isn't always bad. If I'm a long time smoker who tells kids to never smoke but I still do I'm a hypocrite.

People seem to ignore the fact that Marshall was already expected to miss the game. McDaniels chose to bench a guy for 'accountability' issues who was going to miss the game due to an injury anyway.

Ravage!!!
01-09-2010, 03:06 PM
I can only imagine that it would be hard to 'quietly' ban a TE and star WR from the stadium.

And being a hypocrite isn't always bad. If I'm a long time smoker who tells kids to never smoke but I still do I'm a hypocrite.

Can't do that when you are a PART of the team, though. I think thats the problem. I'm using ths example from guys like Schlereth and some other ex-NFL players talking.... BUT

When you are a coach, you have to be a PART of the team just as much as the general of the team. You can't stand up on the mountain and point your finger down, and expect the team to respect you simply because you DEMAND respect. YOu have to earn it, and you have to be a part of the team to do that. So far, the early part of his tenure here, he's chosen to DEMAND loyalty and respect and for everyone to follow in line simply because he says it.

You can't be a "do as I say, not as I do" leader when part of a team.

Using your smoking example... If you PUNISHED the kids you preached to for smoking, and then did not punish yourself for choosing to smoke, I doubt that people would NOT think of you as a BAD hypocrit.

Poet
01-09-2010, 03:16 PM
Can't do that when you are a PART of the team, though. I think thats the problem. I'm using ths example from guys like Schlereth and some other ex-NFL players talking.... BUT

The problem is that he isn't part of the team of players, he's the boss and coach of those players.


When you are a coach, you have to be a PART of the team just as much as the general of the team. You can't stand up on the mountain and point your finger down, and expect the team to respect you simply because you DEMAND respect. YOu have to earn it, and you have to be a part of the team to do that. So far, the early part of his tenure here, he's chosen to DEMAND loyalty and respect and for everyone to follow in line simply because he says it.

When you're a coach you're the boss. I assure you, at the beginning of the year everyone thought that the Broncos locker room was dead to McD. Schefter reported that their locker room was loyal to a fault for him. Why has that changed? It hasn't. All he did was discipline two cancers. I repeat, he disciplined two cancers. He aired them out and it didn't do anything other than show who runs the team. It ain't Champ, it ain't Orton, it ain't Dawkins or Royal, McD runs the team.

Would I have aired them out like that? Once again I really wish Marvin Lewis had that mentality because Cincinnati wouldn't be going to the playoffs for the first time in four years. He's taking the hardass approach on a team full of hardasses. Ironically the only people who have an issue with him as the coach is a cancerous wide receiver and an overrated tight end who 'couldn't wait till the season was over'.




You can't be a "do as I say, not as I do" leader when part of a team.

Using your smoking example... If you PUNISHED the kids you preached to for smoking, and then did not punish yourself for choosing to smoke, I doubt that people would NOT think of you as a BAD hypocrit.

Yes, yes you can, in fact it's common place. Mike Tomlin isn't big on his players talking, but he sure as hell was all about 'unleashing hell' this past month (ironic).

No one is going to get mad at a lifetime smoker for punishing their kid for smoking and not 'punishing themselves'.

McD aired them out to the world. He shamed them. Knocking a coach for actually being a coach is silly. I know, maybe you forgot what that looked like after watching Shanhan's sandcastle crumble around him, just like I forgot what it looked like after Lewis got soft, but this is for the betterment of the team. :salute:

spikerman
01-09-2010, 03:18 PM
I didnt excuse McDaniels. But i do believe him considering the history with those said players.

I know about Marshall's history, but did I miss something about Scheffler's past?

Tned
01-09-2010, 03:21 PM
I know about Marshall's history, but did I miss something about Scheffler's past?

Typical revisionist history. Whenever a player becomes an ex-Bronco or appears to be heading there, the revisionist historians go to work.

They ignore the fact that Scheffler worked to turn himself into a blocking tight end to fit into McDaniels system, and instead label him a cancer or chronic trouble maker or something along those lines.

Ravage!!!
01-09-2010, 03:23 PM
We'll have to disagree, King.... I disagree. If you want respect, you can NOT demand it, you have to earn it. Just players have said that have been in the locker room. Some players may play the game of showing it, like Marshall did even giving cute hugs on the sidelines.... but they won't FIGHT for you.. Listen to the players in Dallas right now about fighting for their coach. I don't even think Wade is a good coach, but I think Reid is, and the players FIGHT for him.

I agree with a lot of the ex-NFL players that are talking, and their opinion that calling you out to the media and questioning your toughness is NO WAY to handle a team. It effect the locker room. Its immature, and despite you calling them cancers, doesn't make it a fact. McDaniels is being sure to make them out to be a cancer by calling them out to the media like that.

Had no benefit to the team. None.

Shanahan was known for playing the best player at positions. You'll excuse me if I don't take your jabs seriously on that, as well.

TXBRONC
01-09-2010, 03:28 PM
I can only imagine that it would be hard to 'quietly' ban a TE and star WR from the stadium.

And being a hypocrite isn't always bad. If I'm a long time smoker who tells kids to never smoke but I still do I'm a hypocrite.

Well imagine away, because Marshall was already going miss the game so McDaniel making it issue before the game only made distraction before the biggest game of the year. In Tony's case why make pissing contest days before the game when could just scratched him right before the game without saying anything to the media.

Yes it's always bad to be a hypocritical because it undercuts credibility.

Poet
01-09-2010, 03:28 PM
Shanahan did a real good job at drafting some headcases.

I dare anyone to tell me that Marshall isn't a cancer. He quit on his team twice, he got himself suspended and was constantly putting himself in stupid situations and overall brought a cloud over your team.

Oh, then an 'injury' that was 'damaging' to his hammy that....oh wait..it wasn't really hurt.

He's a cancer.

TXBRONC
01-09-2010, 03:31 PM
I know about Marshall's history, but did I miss something about Scheffler's past?

No you didn't miss anything but I think King did.

Poet
01-09-2010, 03:32 PM
No you didn't miss anything but I think King did.

I didn't miss the part where he couldn't wait for your season to end...

dogfish
01-09-2010, 03:33 PM
I dare anyone to tell me that Marshall isn't a cancer. He quit on his team twice, he got himself suspended and was constantly putting himself in stupid situations and overall brought a cloud over your team.

Oh, then an 'injury' that was 'damaging' to his hammy that....oh wait..it wasn't really hurt.

He's a cancer.

no, he's not a cancer. . .



































































































he was born on the 23 of march-- he's an aries, dumbass. . . .

Ravage!!!
01-09-2010, 03:37 PM
A frustrated comment, made in a moment of high frustration.. from a player that has BUSTED his butt both in practice and on the field.... does NOT make him a cancer... BY ANY DEFINITION of the word. Period.

I'll agree with Tned again... this "I want players that want to play for this team" mantra is so highly over used and so highly exaggerated it almost makes you ill reading it.

Ravage!!!
01-09-2010, 03:38 PM
Shanahan did a real good job at drafting some headcases.

I dare anyone to tell me that Marshall isn't a cancer. He quit on his team twice, he got himself suspended and was constantly putting himself in stupid situations and overall brought a cloud over your team.

Oh, then an 'injury' that was 'damaging' to his hammy that....oh wait..it wasn't really hurt.

He's a cancer.

He's not a cancer. Sure wasn't a quitting 'cancer" with prior coaches. Seeems I keep seeing the ONE common denominator.

Seems everyone is a cancer around some

TXBRONC
01-09-2010, 03:38 PM
I didn't miss the part where he couldn't wait for your season to end...

Yeah but you did miss the part where it wasn't Scheffler who went to the media it was the coach and missed all years of Scheffler career he's never consider a trouble maker until the coach called him one. Just because McDaniels calls him one doesn't mean he is.

Northman
01-09-2010, 03:38 PM
I know about Marshall's history, but did I miss something about Scheffler's past?

Sheffler was crying at the beginning of the season as well.

TXBRONC
01-09-2010, 03:40 PM
Sheffler was crying at the beginning of the season as well.

Bullshit.

Northman
01-09-2010, 03:40 PM
Shanahan did a real good job at drafting some headcases.

I dare anyone to tell me that Marshall isn't a cancer. He quit on his team twice, he got himself suspended and was constantly putting himself in stupid situations and overall brought a cloud over your team.

Oh, then an 'injury' that was 'damaging' to his hammy that....oh wait..it wasn't really hurt.

He's a cancer.

Amen. :coffee:

Ravage!!!
01-09-2010, 03:40 PM
Yeah but you did miss the part where it wasn't Scheffler who went to the media it was the coach and missed all years of Scheffler career he's never consider a trouble maker until the coach called him one. Just because McDaniels calls him one doesn't mean he is.

No no no... TX.. you are wrong. See, the coach can never be wrong here. Keep readng the posts.

Northman
01-09-2010, 03:43 PM
Bullshit.

Uh, no your full of shit.

TXBRONC
01-09-2010, 03:46 PM
Uh, no your full of shit.

Instead of letting your alligator mouth overload your hummingbird.... prove that Scheffler has been a cancer all season.

Northman
01-09-2010, 03:47 PM
I didnt say all season jackass. Learn to read.

spikerman
01-09-2010, 03:48 PM
Sheffler was crying at the beginning of the season as well.

He was unhappy with the way the Cutler situation was handled. He wasn't alone there. It still looked like he was playing hard to me. That hardly makes him a troublemaker or a "cancer".

Northman
01-09-2010, 03:48 PM
He was unhappy with the way the Cutler situation was handled. He wasn't alone there. It still looked like he was playing hard to me. That hardly makes him a troublemaker or a "cancer".

He was in a small crowd. Throw on top of that he didnt keep it in house. Ooops, i guess thats only meant for Coaches. :lol:

spikerman
01-09-2010, 03:56 PM
He was in a small crowd. Throw on top of that he didnt keep it in house. Ooops, i guess thats only meant for Coaches. :lol: Good point, I hope JMcD didn't punish someone for not being able to keep things behind closed doors. It would be slightly hypocritical don't you think?

Northman
01-09-2010, 03:58 PM
Good point, I hope JMcD didn't punish someone for not being able to keep things behind closed doors. It would be slightly hypocritical don't you think?


He's the coach. He's in charge. the fact that 51 players "get it" and understand that tells me where the problem is.

spikerman
01-09-2010, 04:00 PM
So the coach can never be wrong?

Northman
01-09-2010, 04:04 PM
So the coach can never be wrong?

Thats not what i said. But the history of problems from Sheff and Brandon from day 1 when McD arrived tells me the guys were going to be problems from the get go. McD has made his fair share of problems but he is also the coach brought in to instill his philosphy, his structure. If 98% of the team gets it than i really dont see how its difficult to understand whats going on here. McD has stated that he would handle things differently in the future but with some of you guys trying to blow smoke up my ass about how Brandon and Scheff not being problems just makes me shake my head.

spikerman
01-09-2010, 04:07 PM
Thats not what i said. But the history of problems from Sheff and Brandon from day 1 when McD arrived tells me the guys were going to be problems from the get go. McD has made his fair share of problems but he is also the coach brought in to instill his philosphy, his structure. If 98% of the team gets it than i really dont see how its difficult to understand whats going on here. McD has stated that he would handle things differently in the future but with some of you guys trying to blow smoke up my ass about how Brandon and Scheff not being problems just makes me shake my head.

Can you point out my post where I said Marshall wasn't a problem? I just think the coach handled the situation very poorly. And, IMO, there's a HUGE difference between Marshall's issues and Scheffler's.

Northman
01-09-2010, 04:12 PM
Can you point out my post where I said Marshall wasn't a problem? I just think the coach handled the situation very poorly. And, IMO, there's a HUGE difference between Marshall's issues and Scheffler's.

There is a much larger issue with Brandon's than Scheff's. However, Scheff still made it known he was packing it in. Sorry man, from my point of view thats just totally unacceptable for any player to say. I dont agree with McD's decision either however i would at least like to know what players are on board and which ones arent. I think we all thought Brandon had taken a turn for the better. But obviously that was just a ploy to raise his stock so he can get out of dodge. If Scheff didnt want to be benched, he should of sacked up and played ball. I know if i was a teammate i wouldnt want to hear that shit. Why would i want that guy on the field if he is already packing it in? Scheff isnt even that good so i dont get all the hoopla about that guy.

TXBRONC
01-09-2010, 05:08 PM
I didnt say all season jackass. Learn to read.

Well dork when the rest of society use the term "from day one" it means all season. Apparently you have a learning disablity.

Northman
01-09-2010, 05:12 PM
Well dork when the rest of society use the term "from day one" it means all season. Apparently you have learning disablity.

Guess you should of clarified my stance before opening your yap then now huh?

TXBRONC
01-09-2010, 09:12 PM
Guess you should of clarified my stance before opening your yap then now huh?

You need to be responsible for your own mess little fella.

SoCalImport
01-09-2010, 09:19 PM
Geez. the offseason just started:tsk:

dogfish
01-09-2010, 09:56 PM
WTF, fellas?


:tsk:

HORSEPOWER 56
01-09-2010, 10:04 PM
WTF, fellas?


:tsk:

It's not "fellas". It's just North being North again. McD is not responsible for any of the negatives from the past season, only the positives. Why, because he admitted he needs to do a better job at his end of the season presser, of course.

Marshall and Scheff are the ones who are responsible for the negatives on this team right now. The sooner they're gone the better. They've been cancers to this team since McD arrived and have done everything they can to undermine McD so they deserve to be benched and publicly chastised for not being team players.

If you don't feel the same way, stand by because you're in for it.

I think that about sums it up.

arapaho2
01-10-2010, 12:14 AM
I disagree. When you make it a point to try and poison the lockeroom or show other players you are ready to give up then i would be benching his ass too. Man, i know a lot of you guys are great people but i cant help but feel disgusted at how some of you think its ok for the players to absolutely behave like this. Im happy that finally we have a coach again who is making players accountable for their actions. For me personally, i would rather know which players want to be Broncos and which ones rather be elsewhere.

thats your hang up but in reality i would rather have a player that wants to win whatever team he's on...he spoke out because he wasnt happy about the way the offense was working, it doesnt mean he isnt a bronco or doesnt want to be one...it means he's frustrated by the lack of production

i would rather have a player that says his feelings because he sees things arent working and we do nothing to change , then a bunch of yes men who would rather keep thier mouths shut and keep on doing the same ol thing, makeing the same mistakes, and loseing because the coach has a massive ego

because tony supposedly said something...doesnt mean he didnt give a 100% or want to be a bronco

WARHORSE
01-10-2010, 05:33 AM
There might be issues between Brandon and the Broncos, but that isnt in any way going to bring his value down.

McD didnt spoil anything by being vocal. Heck, this is the NFL, and even if they tried to keep everything behind closed doors, everyone would still find out.



Armstrong hit it on the head when he said Roy Williams isnt half the player Brandon is. So you think teams are going to tell McD that they arent interested because a first and third is too high? It has NOTHING to do with McD when it comes to a player like this.


Heres the deal: As long as there are two VERY interested teams drooling over what it would look like for Brandon to be on their team, its not going to be about getting McD to drop the price.

Its going to be about who is going to give the Broncos the most.

These teams will be bidding against each other.


Its no secret today. And it will be no secret tomorrow.

Anyone who thinks Brandon wont get interest is crazy.

He just made Orton look like an allstar. If he brings that ability to Orton, cant he do it for anyone?

Just look at the JETS. What would they look like right now if Brandon patrolled their opponents secondary?

Case closed.

Brandon will not be tendered at a first and third. It will be two firsts.

Elevation inc
01-10-2010, 07:07 AM
its funny before the season people predicted 4 wins, now those same people after watching a coach take us to eight wins.....flip on him becasue he calls out a diva WR after a number of issues stated by himself but not given in full detail...this leads the haters here to assume, value drop, consipracy and all kinds of otehr things...essentially we are right back to where we were before the season....haters dont like chnage cant handle when thinsg are different, and refuse to give MC any credit..

essentially we will get the predictions for 4-12 again...hahaha

HORSEPOWER 56
01-10-2010, 08:33 AM
its funny before the season people predicted 4 wins, now those same people after watching a coach take us to eight wins.....flip on him becasue he calls out a diva WR after a number of issues stated by himself but not given in full detail...this leads the haters here to assume, value drop, consipracy and all kinds of otehr things...essentially we are right back to where we were before the season....haters dont like chnage cant handle when thinsg are different, and refuse to give MC any credit..

essentially we will get the predictions for 4-12 again...hahaha

Everyone gave him credit for bringing in Nolan and making the defense better - the real reason we were 8-8. He also gets the credit for the offense being worse. Worse on points, yards, 3rd down conversion %, redzone %, passing, rushing, sacks allowed. You name it, it got worse on the offensive side of the ball. Remember McD isn't just the HC. He calls ALL THE PLAYS for the offense. There are offensive coordinators being fired right now for having better seasons statistically than the Broncos just did on offense. That's where the criticism comes from. It's not about predictions and final records, it's about are we a better team than we were last year at this time. Right now, opinions are about 50/50.

Remember something, we're all fans here. So for all the McDaniels "haters" and Orton "haters", and Moreno "haters", or whoever that are out there, it's not because they don't want these guys to succeed. It's because they've demonstrated something about their coaching or play that hasn't improved this team and looks like a glaring weakness heading into next year. That's why. Some guys just can't understand that.

Elevation inc
01-10-2010, 09:30 AM
Everyone gave him credit for bringing in Nolan and making the defense better - the real reason we were 8-8. He also gets the credit for the offense being worse. Worse on points, yards, 3rd down conversion %, redzone %, passing, rushing, sacks allowed. You name it, it got worse on the offensive side of the ball. Remember McD isn't just the HC. He calls ALL THE PLAYS for the offense. There are offensive coordinators being fired right now for having better seasons statistically than the Broncos just did on offense. That's where the criticism comes from. It's not about predictions and final records, it's about are we a better team than we were last year at this time. Right now, opinions are about 50/50.

Remember something, we're all fans here. So for all the McDaniels "haters" and Orton "haters", and Moreno "haters", or whoever that are out there, it's not because they don't want these guys to succeed. It's because they've demonstrated something about their coaching or play that hasn't improved this team and looks like a glaring weakness heading into next year. That's why. Some guys just can't understand that.


so then does nolan get the blame for being the cordinator of a run defense that mirrored slowiks the second half of the season...probally not becasue people only see what they wanna see.....

HORSEPOWER 56
01-10-2010, 11:07 AM
so then does nolan get the blame for being the cordinator of a run defense that mirrored slowiks the second half of the season...probally not becasue people only see what they wanna see.....

Of course he does. The big difference is that Nolan's defense played well at least part of the season. The offense really never did.

nevcraw
01-10-2010, 11:38 AM
Better to show his team that malcontents will be dealt with promptly and accordingly IMO.

yup.. great business strategy.. run out of town anybody who you dont see eye to eye with..
classic..

nevcraw
01-10-2010, 11:46 AM
its funny before the season people predicted 4 wins, now those same people after watching a coach take us to eight wins.....flip on him becasue he calls out a diva WR after a number of issues stated by himself but not given in full detail...this leads the haters here to assume, value drop, consipracy and all kinds of otehr things...essentially we are right back to where we were before the season....haters dont like chnage cant handle when thinsg are different, and refuse to give MC any credit..

essentially we will get the predictions for 4-12 again...hahaha

i cant speak for everyone but my dissapointment is broken down like this:

did they beat last years record? - no.
were they better at the end of the season than the begining? - no. did the make the playoffs? - no. After dismantling te offensive philosphy - did they score more points? - no. Could they stop the run? - no.

McD get's all the credit in the world for the above..

broncofanatic1987
01-10-2010, 12:22 PM
McDaniels should not have made the issues with Marshall and Scheffler public.

I think they won't get a 1st and a 3rd for Marshall. Why would a team want to give up two picks for a head case who's commitment to the team was called into question at the end of a season before a game with playoff implications?

The Broncos might be better served by rendering a qualifying offer that would result in them getting one pick in return if they don't match an offer. Maybe there will be a team that will be willing to give up a first round pick without having to also give up a third round pick.

Elevation inc
01-10-2010, 12:35 PM
i cant speak for everyone but my dissapointment is broken down like this:

did they beat last years record? - no.
were they better at the end of the season than the begining? - no. did the make the playoffs? - no. After dismantling te offensive philosphy - did they score more points? - no. Could they stop the run? - no.

McD get's all the credit in the world for the above..


well you can blame nolan and the defense and player breakdowns for about everything u listed there as well...it was a team breakdown not a MCD breakdown and just becasue he was in charge doesnt me he gets full responsibility..

i have issue with that thats like some military superviosr getting kicked out becasue his troop got a DU iand killed someone...they keep the troop but bounce the supervisor???? that takes all accountability away...and thats what happens here when people place the blame on MCd 100%

why is it no one ever wants to hold players accountable.....

Northman
01-10-2010, 12:36 PM
Why would a team want to give up two picks for a head case who's commitment to the team was called into question at the end of a season before a game with playoff implications?



Because despite the obvious when it comes to Marshall's character there will be teams just like the Bears who will say its all on the Coach and the "talent" factor will kick in and they will give up the farm to make their team better. Its all in the eye of the beholder. The Bears knew that Cutler was a whiner but knew he also possessed talent that they felt would make their team better and thus gave up good draft picks and a QB in the process. Its no different with Marshall. When teams are desperate they will overlook anything.

broncofanatic1987
01-10-2010, 12:53 PM
Because despite the obvious when it comes to Marshall's character there will be teams just like the Bears who will say its all on the Coach and the "talent" factor will kick in and they will give up the farm to make their team better. Its all in the eye of the beholder. The Bears knew that Cutler was a whiner but knew he also possessed talent that they felt would make their team better and thus gave up good draft picks and a QB in the process. Its no different with Marshall. When teams are desperate they will overlook anything.

I think it is different with Marshall. Teams don't build around receivers. They build around quarterbacks. Yeah, giving up a 1st and a 3rd is less than two firsts, a 3rd, and a quarterback, but Marshall is one violation away from being suspended for half the season. I'm not sure that there's a team that wants to give up two picks for a player like that. He still has yet to prove he can get through an offseason without getting arrested.

Poet
01-10-2010, 01:04 PM
If anyone doubts that teams will want Marshall, think about this; from a football standpoint Terrell Owens and Randy Moss at one point were terrible for their teams, even worse than Marshall. T.O. has leveled three different locker rooms, and Moss managed to get himself traded from OAKLAND.

Now Marshall probably isn't as good as those two were in their prime when this happened, but there will be more teams than there should be looking at Marshall.

Tned
01-10-2010, 01:29 PM
its funny before the season people predicted 4 wins, now those same people after watching a coach take us to eight wins.....flip on him becasue he calls out a diva WR after a number of issues stated by himself but not given in full detail...this leads the haters here to assume, value drop, consipracy and all kinds of otehr things...essentially we are right back to where we were before the season....haters dont like chnage cant handle when thinsg are different, and refuse to give MC any credit..

essentially we will get the predictions for 4-12 again...hahaha

Prior to the season, I had said I saw us between 7-9 wins, not 4 wins. Obviously, my expectations went up after the 6-0 start (as they should have) and I am very dissapointed with losing 8 of the last 10 games (which is VERY hard to do in the NFL).

Elevation inc
01-10-2010, 01:40 PM
Prior to the season, I had said I saw us between 7-9 wins, not 4 wins. Obviously, my expectations went up after the 6-0 start (as they should have) and I am very dissapointed with losing 8 of the last 10 games (which is VERY hard to do in the NFL).


LOL i know who predicted what.....

and there is a difference between being dissapointed about losing 8 of ten and then taking some of the extremes posters are doing currently with speculation, flase accustations...etc...

heck MCd could have come in won us a SB and people would still be bitching about losing 8 of ten, and MCd calling marshall out...and squeaking into the playoffs....

Tned
01-10-2010, 01:48 PM
LOL i know who predicted what.....

and there is a difference between being dissapointed about losing 8 of ten and then taking some of the extremes posters are doing currently with speculation, flase accustations...etc...

heck MCd could have come in won us a SB and people would still be bitching about losing 8 of ten, and MCd calling marshall out...and squeaking into the playoffs....

Yes, just like there have been people that talked about how the SB winning teams were 'lucky' and not really good teams, and the way the revisionist history first painted us as one of the worst teams in the last 10 years (completely false) and then has history kept being revised, painted Shanahan's whole tenure here as a failure, but for getting 'lucky' and winning a couple Super Bowls.

There will always be a few people on the extreme fringes that are not reasonable under any circumstances. However, most people don't fall into those extremes.

What's frustrating for some of us, is not only did the season end so badly, but there are posters that act like McDaniels can do no wrong and has yet to make a mistake as the Broncos head coach.

Which is worse: Refusing to hold McDaniels responsible for anything that has gone wrong or holding him responsible for too much?

Elevation inc
01-10-2010, 02:01 PM
Yes, just like there have been people that talked about how the SB winning teams were 'lucky' and not really good teams, and the way the revisionist history first painted us as one of the worst teams in the last 10 years (completely false) and then has history kept being revised, painted Shanahan's whole tenure here as a failure, but for getting 'lucky' and winning a couple Super Bowls.

There will always be a few people on the extreme fringes that are not reasonable under any circumstances. However, most people don't fall into those extremes.

What's frustrating for some of us, is not only did the season end so badly, but there are posters that act like McDaniels can do no wrong and has yet to make a mistake as the Broncos head coach.

Which is worse: Refusing to hold McDaniels responsible for anything that has gone wrong or holding him responsible for too much?




fair enough and i dont follow that line....I belive he was right to call out marshall, wrong to get sheffler tied in with that issue in the media...should have been seperate....i belive he underutilized hillis, royal and that orton is not that good for us, but it doesnt make me mad becasue are OL sucks and orton battled all year....i belive he at time was a little naive in handling losses as much as the team was as well....i belive he entered with a ego in teh cutler drama, i belived he screwed over value in the last draft, but he did have minum preparation anyways....so yes i dont belive he is god, but i do belive he is human and is every bit on the path to being a good coach as we hope....

i belive he has flaws, but people let far worse slide over the last ten years with regards to shanny who was a vet coach not a rookie..simply becasue he won us 2 SB..., i just cant fathom why 1 year in a complete system overhaul with 32 new players cant buy a guy a little grace when he still managed to get the team above expectations by many...yes the collapse sucked but people need to start putting accountability on the players as well and that rarely happens in moments like this...

its clear there are things to work on and things that need to get fixed, but people are so blinded by either love or hate they cant take something simple like his words in a press conference to close the season to heart...because they are blinded by there version of whats going on....

if people listen to that full conference he took accountability for everything and vowed there would be chnages....when i hear that unlike the conferences of shanny last year with regards to defensive failure...i relize that while josh may be naive and have a ego and doesnt excatly handle thinsg normal...he does know things arent right and need to be fixed....

i think people just need to chill...thats all...

Northman
01-10-2010, 02:12 PM
I think it is different with Marshall. Teams don't build around receivers. They build around quarterbacks. Yeah, giving up a 1st and a 3rd is less than two firsts, a 3rd, and a quarterback, but Marshall is one violation away from being suspended for half the season. I'm not sure that there's a team that wants to give up two picks for a player like that. He still has yet to prove he can get through an offseason without getting arrested.

Be that as it may teams already knew about his problems so whether or not McD said anything about it was irrelevant. Its not news to anyone how Marshall is.

Tned
01-10-2010, 03:31 PM
fair enough and i dont follow that line....I belive he was right to call out marshall, wrong to get sheffler tied in with that issue in the media...should have been seperate....i belive he underutilized hillis, royal and that orton is not that good for us, but it doesnt make me mad becasue are OL sucks and orton battled all year....i belive he at time was a little naive in handling losses as much as the team was as well....i belive he entered with a ego in teh cutler drama, i belived he screwed over value in the last draft, but he did have minum preparation anyways....so yes i dont belive he is god, but i do belive he is human and is every bit on the path to being a good coach as we hope....

i belive he has flaws, but people let far worse slide over the last ten years with regards to shanny who was a vet coach not a rookie..simply becasue he won us 2 SB..., i just cant fathom why 1 year in a complete system overhaul with 32 new players cant buy a guy a little grace when he still managed to get the team above expectations by many...yes the collapse sucked but people need to start putting accountability on the players as well and that rarely happens in moments like this...

its clear there are things to work on and things that need to get fixed, but people are so blinded by either love or hate they cant take something simple like his words in a press conference to close the season to heart...because they are blinded by there version of whats going on....

if people listen to that full conference he took accountability for everything and vowed there would be chnages....when i hear that unlike the conferences of shanny last year with regards to defensive failure...i relize that while josh may be naive and have a ego and doesnt excatly handle thinsg normal...he does know things arent right and need to be fixed....

i think people just need to chill...thats all...

Sounds like your views and mine are pretty evenly aligned.

Well said.

Lonestar
01-10-2010, 06:58 PM
fair enough and i dont follow that line....I belive he was right to call out marshall, wrong to get sheffler tied in with that issue in the media...should have been seperate....i belive he underutilized hillis, royal and that orton is not that good for us, but it doesnt make me mad becasue are OL sucks and orton battled all year....i belive he at time was a little naive in handling losses as much as the team was as well....i belive he entered with a ego in teh cutler drama, i belived he screwed over value in the last draft, but he did have minum preparation anyways....so yes i dont belive he is god, but i do belive he is human and is every bit on the path to being a good coach as we hope....

i belive he has flaws, but people let far worse slide over the last ten years with regards to shanny who was a vet coach not a rookie..simply becasue he won us 2 SB..., i just cant fathom why 1 year in a complete system overhaul with 32 new players cant buy a guy a little grace when he still managed to get the team above expectations by many...yes the collapse sucked but people need to start putting accountability on the players as well and that rarely happens in moments like this...

its clear there are things to work on and things that need to get fixed, but people are so blinded by either love or hate they cant take something simple like his words in a press conference to close the season to heart...because they are blinded by there version of whats going on....

if people listen to that full conference he took accountability for everything and vowed there would be chnages....when i hear that unlike the conferences of shanny last year with regards to defensive failure...i relize that while josh may be naive and have a ego and doesnt excatly handle thinsg normal...he does know things arent right and need to be fixed....

i think people just need to chill...thats all...

I do not believe that the Broncos could have won it all in one year with the total reformation of this squad..

I suspect IF Josh could have found better affordable OL types in FA he would have, I also believe that he thought that the existing guys could make the transformation or they would have been gone earlier than they were.

After all the OLINE was THE strong point of the team last year.. allowing only a few sacks..

I feel he made a mistake getting away from the ZBS so early, but we all now know that jay made them look better than they were. That is no condemnation of Orton considering all the other changes made on both sides of the LOS..

This team just flat had to many deficits especially on D to make it as far as they did..

could he have brought in more players? sure but would they have fit into his long term plans.. I think he brought in ONLY those players he wanted long term guys he thought or KNEW could do the job and tried to jury rig the others into getting by..

I'm happy with what he is doing and my only real concern is when it was obvious to all that moreno looked to be on shaky grounds near the end of the season and buckey was less than 100% Why did he not use Hillis. That was his only blunder IMO.

Every thing else was playing with the deck he had.. his making or not, just so many roster moves you can make in one year.

Look IMO for major changes on the LOS.. while most of what we have can be used as backups to spell the real starters they are not starter material in a dominating program.

Tned
01-10-2010, 08:31 PM
I'm happy with what he is doing and my only real concern is when it was obvious to all that moreno looked to be on shaky grounds near the end of the season and buckey was less than 100% Why did he not use Hillis. That was his only blunder IMO.


I think the first rounder for A. Smith, considering all the holes that need to be filled, counts as another blunder. Not only the fact that Smith couldn't hold on to the nickel spot and they had to sign law, and then Carter from the practice squad got the nod over Smith when Law was hurt, but also because of the flexibility in the '10 draft that 2nd first round pick would have given us.

To those that say, "Bowlen couldn't afford to first round picks.." First, there is no actual evidence that the Broncos wouldn't want to first round picks, because they couldn't afford to sign them. Second, even if the cost was a factor, you don't trade a first for a second. They could have gotten much more value for the pick trading back during the '10 draft, or trading that first rounder for a high-quality veteran to fill a hole.

spikerman
01-10-2010, 09:51 PM
Look IMO for major changes on the LOS.. while most of what we have can be used as backups to spell the real starters they are not starter material in a dominating program.
I wholeheartedly agree and have been saying for a while that I thought that McD not emphasizing the Dline (I didn't know the Oline was going to struggle like it did) was a huge mistake last offseason. Replacing backup caliber players with other backups doesn't fix the problem. The DL stunk last year and was a problem again this year. Not surprising considering it wasn't made a priority.

nevcraw
01-10-2010, 10:50 PM
well you can blame nolan and the defense and player breakdowns for about everything u listed there as well...it was a team breakdown not a MCD breakdown and just becasue he was in charge doesnt me he gets full responsibility..

i have issue with that thats like some military superviosr getting kicked out becasue his troop got a DU iand killed someone...they keep the troop but bounce the supervisor???? that takes all accountability away...and thats what happens here when people place the blame on MCd 100%

why is it no one ever wants to hold players accountable.....

blame the players all you want.. but on offensive the team went backwards in most areas.. this was the new boss's area of expertise and he failed to deliver the team to a better record.
as it has been mentioned before.. did the pittsburg HC dismatle the defense just because he was a dc?? There was plenty to work from in Denver and the coach chose to go in a different direction, so for that he is totally acountable.

sakic_avs
01-10-2010, 11:44 PM
well you can blame nolan and the defense and player breakdowns for about everything u listed there as well...it was a team breakdown not a MCD breakdown and just becasue he was in charge doesnt me he gets full responsibility..

i have issue with that thats like some military superviosr getting kicked out becasue his troop got a DU iand killed someone...they keep the troop but bounce the supervisor???? that takes all accountability away...and thats what happens here when people place the blame on MCd 100%

why is it no one ever wants to hold players accountable.....

Because the current coach traded away everyone's favorite player and they can't see past that.

Lonestar
01-11-2010, 04:50 AM
I believe that the DL was patched like it was because Noland did not see anyone better to do the job that was available.

As for the oline I belive he came in thinking since they were top rated last year that they could adapt after bulking up a bit. He brought hockstien as insurance and drafted Olsen to replace him down the line.

Just as a few years ago when lepsis went down the oline stunk it up, well harris started the ball rolling when he went out.

I really believe that they saw hamilton as the weak link and had Hock and olsen ready for his departure.

As for Tned talking about Pat not being afford two #1s I agree they could have done it this year but they felt smith was worth the pick. As for him not playing well that is true but not many rookie CB's step in and blow your socks off.

I believe that most of his pucks will pass my DAFT test by being with the team for a second contract unlike many from before.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

nevcraw
01-11-2010, 08:42 AM
Because the current coach traded away everyone's favorite player and they can't see past that.

wrong.. people can't see past closing the season 2-8. or the dismal output on offense, or conflicts galore.
This is way past Cutler.

Nomad
01-11-2010, 09:05 AM
Because the current coach traded away everyone's favorite player and they can't see past that.

Alot of fans are butt hurt over a medicore QB who wanted to leave, but it's not like Mcdaniels inherited a SB caliber team and just dismantled it.

But I am as well aggrevated by the fact this team hasn't improved in the last 4 years when playing down the stretch and with 2 supposedly offensive gurus!! McDaniels does get a pass because he is a rookie HC but next year he better have his shit together because another late season meltdown like this, Bowlen may even 'Jim Mora Jr' him!!!

TXBRONC
01-11-2010, 12:48 PM
I think the first rounder for A. Smith, considering all the holes that need to be filled, counts as another blunder. Not only the fact that Smith couldn't hold on to the nickel spot and they had to sign law, and then Carter from the practice squad got the nod over Smith when Law was hurt, but also because of the flexibility in the '10 draft that 2nd first round pick would have given us.

To those that say, "Bowlen couldn't afford to first round picks.." First, there is no actual evidence that the Broncos wouldn't want to first round picks, because they couldn't afford to sign them. Second, even if the cost was a factor, you don't trade a first for a second. They could have gotten much more value for the pick trading back during the '10 draft, or trading that first rounder for a high-quality veteran to fill a hole.

Smith was also suppose to be our return specialist on both punt returns and kickoffs and could only do that sparingly. If Smith had at the very least been playing in the nickel and dime packages consistently as well being our punt and kickoff returner then I think it's not as glaring of a mistake in my opinion.

Lonestar
01-11-2010, 01:55 PM
Alot of fans are butt hurt over a medicore QB who wanted to leave, but it's not like Mcdaniels inherited a SB caliber team and just dismantled it.

But I am as well aggrevated by the fact this team hasn't improved in the last 4 years when playing down the stretch and with 2 supposedly offensive gurus!! McDaniels does get a pass because he is a rookie HC but next year he better have his shit together because another late season meltdown like this, Bowlen may even 'Jim Mora Jr' him!!!

Good post for the most part.

I think that Pat will allow him to grow in the job, I truly believe that Pat realized just how thin our talent was and that by hiring Josh knowing he was going to revamp the entire team moving every thing to his schemes. Knowing that most of the coaching staff would be gone that Josh was going to win some games he was not supposed to and lose some he was NOT supposed to.

Pat is a smart enough guy to allow him to build the team in his image and also knows it is going to take more than one year to get there.

Do you ever wonder what went through Pats mind when mikes team got their ass kicked by the Jags in that home playoff game?

do you think at that time he might have thought how in the hell did we lose to a first year team at home in the playoffs. is mike the right guy to lead this team?


I believe that next year will be better than this year, even being in prime condition going into the season smaller type players are flat going to get beat down by midpoint in the season therefore we will get bigger and stronger especially on both sides of the LOS.


IMO we are a premier NT away from playing great defense and couple of really good DE's will not hurt. Not sure whether Thomas has the right stuff to make it in the NFL and whether he can make that transition to NFL DE or not. Holiday has some Back up time for a few years but not a starter at such a high motor spot

I think Ayers will blossom next year into a damned fine OLB, Doom is already there and would be surprised if they let him go UNLESS they feel he can't do anything but rush the QB.

56crash
01-12-2010, 02:32 PM
http://www.examiner.com/x-31620-Denver-Sports-Examiner~y2010m1d11-Why-did-McD-come-to-Denver

56crash
01-12-2010, 02:35 PM
Do you think McD said to pat let me take over and totally change the O side of the team and make it total inept

claymore
01-12-2010, 02:36 PM
Marshall's value wont drop. This has been beat to death already.

By us which doesnt count. But if your job is to barter and get the best deal for your franchise, you would damn sure bring all of this up during negotiations.