Jonathan Stewart Fan Club

[BOSSHOGG30]

Many people compare D-Mac to Adrian Peterson, and there’s the common misconception that he’s a bigger guy. McFadden is listed at 6′2, 205. take a look at the height/weight ratios of the top 20 running backs in yardage from this year:
1.) Ladainian Tomlinson (5′10, 221)
2.) Adrian Peterson (6′1, 220)
3.) Brian Westbrook (5′10, 205)
4.) Willie Parker (5′10, 210)
5.) Jamal Lewis (5′11, 245)
6.) Clinton Portis (5′11, 220)
7.) Edgerrin James (6′0, 220)
8.) Willis McGahee (6′0, 232)
9.) Fred Taylor (6′1, 228)
10.) Thomas Jones (5′10, 215)
11.) Marshawn Lynch (5′11, 215)
12.) LenDale White (6′1, 235)
13.) Frank Gore (5′9, 223)
14.) Joseph Addai (5′11, 214)
15.) Justin Fargas (6′1, 220)
16.) Brandon Jacobs (6′4, 264)
17.) Steven Jackson (6′1, 231)
18.) Marion Barber (6′0, 221)
19.) Ryan Grant (6′1, 224)
20.) Earnest Graham (5′9, 225)

There are only 2 players listed UNDER 215, Willie Parker and Brian Westbrook. Both of those players run between the tackles and get tough yards, something McFadden does not do. Not mention they are both 3 inches shorter as well. As for the comparison to Peterson, his build isn’t even close to AP. Adrian Peterson is 6′2, 220. If you don’t remember, last year at the combine, AP was one of the strongest running backs. Watch McFadden run compared to Peterson. McFadden hits holes fasts, explodes through them, and runs 60 yards barely touched. Peterson would break like 5 tackles on his way to a 60 yard run. Watch these videos. Although it’s a small portion of their carries, you can see the difference in running styles. It’s not even close.

McFadden is like Reggie Bush in my opinion, only 2 inches taller with less agility. He does not have the ability to run over someone. He has a good stiff-arm. But in the NFL, linebackers and safeties are much faster and stronger and he will not be able to rely on that. The most successful runners in the NFL have the ability to run through tackles and bounce of people.

When I say he doesn’t have great agility, I mean that he’ll have to be a speed back in the NFL to be successful, and to be a speed back, you have to have amazing agility. Guys like Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn come to mind. They can’t break tackles, but they can move laterally so quickly to make people miss. He won’t be able to run past everyone in the NFL.

There’s a huge difference between being a college RB and an NFL RB. McFadden is a great college RB.

After watching him in a few Arkansas games this year, McFadden wont initiate contact to defenders, he tries to run around them. The guys that can initiate contact and explode into defenders are the ones that are successful in the NFL. Peterson, Jones-Drew, Ryan Grant, Brian Westbrook, LT, just a few that come to mind that make their living by playing physically.

So Who’s Number 1 RB?

Personally, I believe that Jonathan Stewart is the number 1 running prospect this year. He’s 5′11, 230 lbs. Has been clocked at a 4.34. Will be the strongest running back in this class. Check out his profile on Oregon’s website. His measurables are unbelievable. He’s more of a pro-style running back, but he played in an option system at Oregon that fits the style of more of a speed back like Slaton/Devine over at West Virginia.

I know I disagree with most of the “experts” on this one. But how many times have these “experts” been wrong. Reggie Bush was supposed to be the best player to come out since Barry Sanders. Charles Rogers was supposed to be the next Randy Moss. Mike Williams was supposed to be the next Keyshawn. Cedric Benson the next Ricky Williams. I could go on and on. Once again, they’ll be wrong.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Good thoughts, I'd be pleased with Stewart even Mendenhall. I'd take any back that's top rated in this class really. . . Stewart's a decent pass catcher too. I'm all for him.

[BOSSHOGG30]

I if Mendenhall or Stewart fall to #12 that we would have the #1 or 2 back in the entire draft. Very good value for that pick.

[turftoad]

Good thoughts, I'd be pleased with Stewart even Mendenhall. I'd take any back that's top rated in this class really. . . Stewart's a decent pass catcher too. I'm all for him.

So............ you want Stewart or Mendenhall at #12 and Hardy at #42. What do you propose we do with our NEEDS at the DT, LB, S and OT positions?
Do we start to address those with our 4th round pick since we don't have a third?

[BOSSHOGG30]

If we go Offense in the 1st round... we have to stick to defense in the other rounds.... But it will be hard to pass up Stewart at 12 if he is still there.

[turftoad]

We've passed up many first round talent RB's in the past. Hasn't seem to hurt us to bad.

[underrated29]

boss,

Ii have seen this post comparing the two and saying that he does not agree with the experts somehwere else. Can you post a link for it please. I wanted to see what else the author had to say. I think he had some otherhtings on their too.


I dont want us to take a back with our 1st pick. But if we could make a trade for a 1st rd talent DT-jenkins,rodgers then i would be all for taking stewart.
I think stewart will be the best of the 3 rbs.

[BOSSHOGG30]

boss,

Ii have seen this post comparing the two and saying that he does not agree with the experts somehwere else. Can you post a link for it please. I wanted to see what else the author had to say. I think he had some otherhtings on their too.


I dont want us to take a back with our 1st pick. But if we could make a trade for a 1st rd talent DT-jenkins,rodgers then i would be all for taking stewart.
I think stewart will be the best of the 3 rbs.

Don't have a link sorry.

As for the DT...we may be able to target Corey Williams from Green bay... they have plenty of talent on the D-line and they might not want to bid to high to keep Williams there in Green Bay... so he would be ideal.

[Watchthemiddle]

I am all for doing away with our current RB by committee system we have going, and like Stewart.

I am not too familiar with the depth this year at RB, but do we need to get one with the #12 pick?

[turftoad]

Work horse back is not term you much any more. Most teams are going committee.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Work horse back is not term you much any more. Most teams are going committee.

i agree, but Henry can not be counted on... he is injury prone.. so pretty much our running back by committee comes down to Hall and Young. Young is very good but also seems to be injury prone... has been since college. But I like the committee of Stewart, Young, and Hall.

Stewart is also a valuable Kick returner and short yardage back that we currently don't have.

[BOSSHOGG30]

boss,

Ii have seen this post comparing the two and saying that he does not agree with the experts somehwere else. Can you post a link for it please. I wanted to see what else the author had to say. I think he had some otherhtings on their too.


I dont want us to take a back with our 1st pick. But if we could make a trade for a 1st rd talent DT-jenkins,rodgers then i would be all for taking stewart.
I think stewart will be the best of the 3 rbs.

Found it underrated.... here you go:
http://nfldraftforecast.com/

[Requiem / The Dagda]

So............ you want Stewart or Mendenhall at #12 and Hardy at #42. What do you propose we do with our NEEDS at the DT, LB, S and OT positions?
Do we start to address those with our 4th round pick since we don't have a third?

We'll get a free agent or two to qualm some of these needs. I think we need to build around Cutler. I never said I wanted Mendenhall or Stewart at #12, I said I'd be fine for it. What I want is a trade down that gets back a third rounder, if not more.

We don't have enough picks to get all the needs. I think trading down is our best option. Getting two picks should help out quite a bit. Even one helps.

#1, #2, #3, #4, #4, #5, #5, #7, #7. . .

WR, OT, RB, S, DT, LB. . . One pick for each in the first four rounds? Good value all over in the fifth round I'd assume.

We'll be fine if we get another pick or so.

[lex]

Mendenhall would be a better choice.

[turftoad]

Mendenhall would be a better choice.

I don't know about that Lex. I watched the youtubes on him. Looks like he goes down fairly easy for good sized back.

[Skinny]

If i had to choose between the two, Stewart would be my choice.

Nothing against Mendenhall, he's an exceptional RB. I would'nt be upset if we picked him over Jonathan, both are capable RBs. I like Stewarts power/speed combination better ... especially his power.

Not that i want a RB with our 1st pick, just asyin ...

[G_Money]

Devil's Advocate post warning:

I agree that J-Stew and Mendenhall are two tremendous backs.

But let's look at the top-12 as ranked by ESPN for a second.

NAME POS HT WT
Darren McFadden RB 6'2" 212
Rashard Mendenhall RB 5'11" 225
Jonathan Stewart RB 5'11" 233
Felix Jones RB 6'0" 205
Jamaal Charles RB 6'1" 205
Chris Johnson RB 5'10" 198
James Davis RB 5'11" 210 (not coming out in this draft any more, right?)
Ray Rice RB 5'9" 197
Mike Hart RB 5'9" 200
Kevin Smith RB 6'1" 213
Steve Slaton RB 5'10" 196
Matthew Forte RB 6'1" 219
Tashard Choice RB 5'11" 207

Bolded are the guys who are over 215 lbs. With as great a RB class as this is, I don't think most of those guys are limited by missing the 215 lb cutoff by a few pounds. I know you said that backs who are smaller need a good inside presence, though, and most of them have that.

How many of those backs do you think will be successful in the pros? A quarter? Half? Two-thirds?

I'm predicting success for the following:

Mendenhall
Stewart
Charles
Rice
Forte
Choice
(Davis would be on here, but again - not coming out IIRC)

I think D-Mac is gonna struggle as more than a situational back unless he's in the perfect system for him. Same with Chris Johnson. If those guys get into systems that use them as wide receivers and punt returners and trick backs and pitch backs, they'll be fine. Chris Johnson reminds me of Dave Meggett, and if he can find a team that will use him like Meggett he could be a very interesting player, but I don't peg him for instant success as a main RB.

Run DMC is much the same way for me (as is Felix Jones to an extent): I don't know that any of those guys is built to carry the load.

But we'll see. I was all over Peterson in the draft and hated Lynch, but Lynch didn't do too badly for himself.

I don't like Mike Hart. I just don't. Same with Kevin Smith - too many arm-tackles take that guy down, and he won't have those huge gaps in the bigs.

But of the guys I listed, how much BETTER do I think Stewart would be over the rest for the Broncos?

Better...but I don't know if it's enough better to justify the #12 pick we'd use to get him.

Is Stewart a tough runner? Yes.

So is Ray Rice. So is Choice, and Forte.

Is Stewart fast? Yes. So are lots of other backs in this draft.

Is Stewart strong? You bet. But are all his measurables enough to pass on a different position that does not lend itself as well to really good secondary options?

If you gave me a choice, I'd probably skip a 1st round RB in favor of an OT like Clady or a LB.

IMO running back this year could be a quality fill for us with a 2nd, 3rd (we'd have to find a 3rd round pick...) or 4th round selection without a lot of production dropoff either inside or outside the 20.

Still, if you gave me Stewart and Wheeler as our 1st two picks on the day I wouldn't exactly cry about it. ;) Might turn out better than Clady/Connor/Choice.

~G

[turftoad]

I think a lot of the guys on your list will be RBBC guys.

[Lonestar]

I would never draft a RB under 225 period.. Do not care who is is/was just would not do it. they take just way to much abuse any more with 250+ lBS now days..

[mclark]

I've watched Stewart play every game now for a few years. I don't think the spread-option offense was best for him as a running back, since a lot of the blocking is designed to confuse the defense as to whether it's a pass or a run. But he adjusted to it. Oregon's explosive passing game did help to open up the run for all of Oregon's good backs.

He has the best balance of any back I've ever seen. I don't remember the last time one tackler took him down. He reminds me a little bit of Earl Campbell with his balance and low center of gravity. He's fast enough to break away if he hits a seam and gets a step. Not a great receiver out of the backfield; but not bad; and he can grow into it.

Very good in short yardage. I've seen him carry three guys forward and pick up first downs.

He's a GREAT kickoff returner. Very dangerous because he's strong enough to hit holes hard, break tackles, and keep his feet; then his speed kicks in.

He had trouble staying healthy as a freshman, with an ankle injury that recurred in his sophomore season. He played very tough with lingering nicks and bruises this year, even rushing for over 240 yards in the bowl game against South Florida with a big, ugly turf toe that made people wonder before the game if he would even be able to play.

Do I want to draft him? I'd love to draft him if we get busy in free agency, especially if we sign a starting OT, DT and safety. Then I'll gladly pick Jonathan Stewart #12. Stewart and Wheeler would be good for me, if we make a killing in free agency first.

[Skinny]

Do I want to draft him? I'd love to draft him if we get busy in free agency, especially if we sign a starting OT, DT and safety. Then I'll gladly pick Jonathan Stewart #12. Stewart and Wheeler would be good for me, if we make a killing in free agency first.I could go with that ...

[mclark]

I could go with that ...

Love your avatar. South Carolina cheerleaders have been my favorites for many years now.

[BOSSHOGG30]

That's what I want... Stewart and Wheeler or Stewart and Gosder Cherilus.

Either option would be ideal if we signed DT Corey Williams from Green Bay.

If not I would go Stewart and Dre Moore

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I LOOOOVE Stewart...have ever since he was deciding between Tennessee and Oregon. HOWEVER, I'm gonna have to pass on a round 1 RB given the other holes. Now if we somehow managed to sign (or trade for) a FA S AND a LB I believe we could take Stewart at 12 and make a package to get back into round 1 and take Balmer. It wouldn't take too much to do that and we could still land a solid LB in the middle of the draft.

A scenario where we SIGN Hamlin/Gibril Wilson, TRADE FOR Bobby Carpenter, DRAFT Jon Stewart and Balmer AND are still able to sign a mid round LB like Ezra Butler would please me immensely.

Remember folks, we aren't 1 draft away from SB contention. So don't get too pissy if we don't address a need. We can always try to upgrade that spot in 2009.

[lex]

Mendenhall has the better vision and feet. I dont think he will take as much punishment as Stewart. Someone mentioned Earl Campbell and that cuts both ways. Mendenhall has much better feet than Stewart. Stewart is strong and all but Mendenhall is strong enough plus has better vision and feet to avoid the big hit along with make the more nifty cuts.

[BOSSHOGG30]

I like that idea Smilin.... Send Foxworth to Dallas for Carpenter. This gives us a good starting linebacker to match up with Williams and Webster/Winborn

The safety thing won't happen... Hamlin will remain a Cowboy and Wilson will demand a lot of money and attention in FA. But we might be able to sign DT Corey Williams from Green Bay, but even if we can't we could use our #2 on DT Sims.

If we did sign DT sims we could always go with Jared Mayo or Gosder Cherilus.

4th round can go on S Woodyard from Kentucky.
other 4th rounder on OL and one of the top blocking FB's or S Castille if he was to slide for some reason.
5th rounder on DE/OLB Studebaker from Wheaton. (project pick)
5th rounder on Punter or kicker
7th rounder on Punter or kicker

[BOSSHOGG30]

Mendenhall has the better vision and feet. I dont think he will take as much punishment as Stewart. Someone mentioned Earl Campbell and that cuts both ways. Mendenhall has much better feet than Stewart. Stewart is strong and all but Mendenhall is strong enough plus has better vision and feet to avoid the big hit along with make the more nifty cuts.

Now way Stewart is just as good if not better. You have to have pretty good vision to do as well as Stewart did, plus he returns kicks.... you don't just put a guy on kick return if he doesn't have good vision.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Yeah...to simply say Mendenhall has better vision tells me ya haven't seen Stewart. Dude is the real deal. Was the #1 RB coming out of HS his senior year and didn't disappoint at Oregon. Had he gone to Tennessee or Texas everyone would be drooling over him. As it stands, he played at Oregon, in a system not made for him...and he's still projected as top 15.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I'd like to trade JW, Foxxy and a #2 pick to Dallas for Carpenter and one of their #1s...IF they give up on the Run DMC dream. I think that's a fair deal since we pick fairly high in round 2.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

nfldraftcountdown.com mock:

Arizona- Every draft has a first round surprise and this could be it for 2008. Word is Edgerrin James may not be around much longer and even so he has a lot of miles on his tires and they could use a quality backup. Jonathan Stewart is a special prospect with the type of speed and burst you just don't normally find in a 230 lb. running back. Similar in some ways to Jamal Lewis when he was coming out of Tennessee, Stewart is the best player available at this point. The Cardinals also need help in the secondary at cornerback so guys like Leodis McKelvin & Mike Jenkins are possibilities here as well.

[Superchop 7]

If the Bronco's go outside of the box, Stewart and Cromartie would be my choices.

[broncohead]

If Henry is still on our roster come draft day we will not draft a RB in Rd. 1. If we get rid of him we will be in the market for a starting RB because shanny has already said that young cannot take the load. I don't see us drafting a RB in the first Rd. There are just to many holes that we need to address at other positions. Henry will be on the roster for another year at least.

[BeefStew25]

If we take J Stew, can we call him Beef Stew? Please pretty please?

[Bronco4ever]

If we take J Stew, can we call him Beef Stew? Please pretty please?

Wouldn't that be kinda confusing though?

[BeefStew25]

Wouldn't that be kinda confusing though?

No, not really. Since he is white and I am black, we should be fine.

[Bronco4ever]

No, not really. Since he is white and I am black, we should be fine.

Not to hate on you but, the other Stew is also built like a friggin tank.

http://community.theolympian.com/albums/album84/stewart.jpg

I don't know how jacked the real beef stew is.

[broncohead]

Not to hate on you but, the other Stew is also built like a friggin tank.

http://community.theolympian.com/albums/album84/stewart.jpg

I don't know how jacked the real beef stew is.

He is fricken ripped! His biceps are bigger than my head!

[BeefStew25]

Not to hate on you but, the other Stew is also built like a friggin tank.

http://community.theolympian.com/albums/album84/stewart.jpg

I don't know how jacked the real beef stew is.

6'8'' 265 *ding*....let myself go a little...but can still run lay up lines with the best of them.

[BeefStew25]

He is fricken ripped! His biceps are bigger than my head!

Okay guys, easy on the interracial gay man lust.

[Bronco4ever]

6'8'' 265 *ding*....let myself go a little...but can still run lay up lines with the best of them.

I forget you are that damn tall. You almost got a foot on me. Can you still throw down some good dunks?

[Bronco4ever]

Okay guys, easy on the interracial gay man lust.

You are saying that as if there is a problem with it.

[BeefStew25]

I forget you are that damn tall. You almost got a foot on me. Can you still throw down some good dunks?

Like once a year and then I have to have my knees surgically re-attached back to my femur.

[lex]

Now way Stewart is just as good if not better. You have to have pretty good vision to do as well as Stewart did, plus he returns kicks.... you don't just put a guy on kick return if he doesn't have good vision.

Sorry. Im sticking to what I said.

I agree with Mayock on Mendenhall and Stewart. I just dont agree with his take on McFadden.

1. McFadden

2. Mendenhall

3. Stewart
4. Jones


Mayock pretty much said what I was talking tonight. What I called good feet, Mayock called good balance. He also said he has very good pad level which I have often pointed out. They also showed footage of him making cuts. Mayock said its hard to tell in the spread but pointed to a couple of plays he saw of Mendenhall where he read the play, planted his foot and was gone. Pretty much what Ive been telling you.

He basically said Stewart has one speed and takes too many big shots. I just recently pointed this out as well.

[BOSSHOGG30]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwSKFOfc04Q

I think Stewart helps the Broncos the most.... just look at how he did at Oregon. Oregon likes to spread the offense out... they don't rely on a FB. McFadden had a very good full back.

Denver has Cutler and two very good tightends. Shanny likes to spread the offense out for Cutler and he also likes to use two tightend formations as well as two wide outs. Stewart is a good receiver out of the back field and also has the size to protect the QB in pass protection plays. Stewart would excel in Denver's zone blocking scheme as well as give the Broncos a weapon they haven't had in a long time without having a good full back unlike T.D. had with Griffith.

I see nothing but special written all over Stewart. I know we have other needs, but we do have a lot of picks and we would be reaching by taking a DT or safety at 12. I doubt that Ellis and Dorsey slide back to 12, and trading back will be hard because there just isn't anyone in this draft that teams want to trade up to 12 for, unless it is Stewart or a QB that slides for some reason.

If we draft Stewart at 12, we will be set at QB, #1 WR, TE, and RB for a very long time. Throw that in with the fact our o-line is very young and talented and we are looking super strong on offense.

Defense will get better when some of the aging veterans move on and we can bring back some more speed and strength. It's not like we are trading up to get Stewart , so we still have a 2nd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 5th, 7th, and 7th to address the defense. Plus trade bait in Foxworth, Henry, Walker, and Gold to aquire more picks.

Stewart is also a kick returner, so we actually address two areas of need by selecting him.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Sorry. Im sticking to what I said.

I agree with Mayock on Mendenhall and Stewart. I just dont agree with his take on McFadden.

1. McFadden

2. Mendenhall

3. Stewart
4. Jones


Mayock pretty much said what I was talking tonight. What I called good feet, Mayock called good balance. He also said he has very good pad level which I have often pointed out. They also showed footage of him making cuts. Mayock said its hard to tell in the spread but pointed to a couple of plays he saw of Mendenhall where he read the play, planted his foot and was gone. Pretty much what Ive been telling you.

He basically said Stewart has one speed and takes too many big shots. I just recently pointed this out as well.

Stewart gives the big shots and he has the body to take the shots. No biggie... it isn't like he is Henry's size.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Not to hate on you but, the other Stew is also built like a friggin tank.

http://community.theolympian.com/albums/album84/stewart.jpg

I don't know how jacked the real beef stew is.

Dude is a BEAST!

[BOSSHOGG30]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFZJh2FxOR8&feature=related

Watch the 2nd run on this clip against USC... tell me Stewart can't play in the NFL.... the guy is a beast

[lex]

Stewart gives the big shots and he has the body to take the shots. No biggie... it isn't like he is Henry's size.

I dont care. It takes a toll. If you make your living dishing out punishment, you pay the price at some point.

[BOSSHOGG30]

I dont care. It takes a toll. If you make your living dishing out punishment, you pay the price at some point.

If you think Mendenhall doesn't run hard and take big shots like Stewart then you are so wrong... Mendenhall is a power runningback as well.

[BOSSHOGG30]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27cxAs7mGSs

Watch this film.. you will see Mendenhall get hit hard a lot. All runningbacks get hit... I think both Mendenhall and Stewart can hold up though because they are bigger.... but as for pure skill, Stewart has to have the lead over Mendenhall.

[turftoad]

Mayock has got his RB video on the front page of http://www.nfl.com/ called "Backs by demand". Very interesting. Takes about 4 mins to watch. He likes Mendenhall............. a lot. He's also got his top 5 at each position posted. Good stuff.

[lex]

If you think Mendenhall doesn't run hard and take big shots like Stewart then you are so wrong... Mendenhall is a power runningback as well.


I never said he had no power to his game. I said he has a lot more wiggle and isnt seeking contact because nimble feet are a bigger asset for Mendenhall. I think Mendenhall is more judicious when it comes to contact even though he can also lower his shoulder and run behind his pads.

Once again, Im going to post this video. Check out the spin move at the 36 second mark and the juke he puts on Connor at around 51 seconds in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7OiYXlBEZU

You dont really see this wiggle in Stewarts game.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I don't think JS took that much of a pounding at Oregon. His QB had the ball a lot and JS is gonna have some fresh legs. He has the thick body to take and deliver some blows. Whether it takes a toll or not, someone is still gonna get 5-7 good years out of him at least, unless a major injury comes along...and that could happen to anyone.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I don't think we'd go wrong w/ either. I just prefer JS.

[BOSSHOGG30]

I would love Denver to select Mendenhall or Stewart at 12... I think they are the better backs of the draft.... I really like Stewart... I think he would run well with Selvin Young. Mendenhall is a very good back, but Stewart seems like a better fit in our zone blocking scheme. I don't think we could go wrong with either guy though.. both are big enough, fast enough, talented enough, and played against good defenses in college.

[lex]

I would love Denver to select Mendenhall or Stewart at 12... I think they are the better backs of the draft.... I really like Stewart... I think he would run well with Selvin Young. Mendenhall is a very good back, but Stewart seems like a better fit in our zone blocking scheme. I don't think we could go wrong with either guy though.. both are big enough, fast enough, talented enough, and played against good defenses in college.


No, Mendenhall has the better feet and should better make cuts necessary to take advantage of running lanes that avail themeselves. Im not saying Stewart sucks. He doesnt. But its obvious Mendenhall has a better combination of skills to suit our system.

I think McFadden would actually be good in our system. He could be even better than he was in college if he tightened up a couple of things.

[lex]

I don't think JS took that much of a pounding at Oregon. His QB had the ball a lot and JS is gonna have some fresh legs. He has the thick body to take and deliver some blows. Whether it takes a toll or not, someone is still gonna get 5-7 good years out of him at least, unless a major injury comes along...and that could happen to anyone.

Thats not a certainty.

[BOSSHOGG30]

No, Mendenhall has the better feet and should better make cuts necessary to take advantage of running lanes that avail themeselves. Im not saying Stewart sucks. He doesnt. But its obvious Mendenhall has a better combination of skills to suit our system.

I think McFadden would actually be good in our system. He could be even better than he was in college if he tightened up a couple of things.

I guess we will have to wait and see... how about for now we just agree that we don't want to see either one of the guys in our division unless they are playing for the Broncos.

[turftoad]

I guess we will have to wait and see... how about for now we just agree that we don't want to see either one of the guys in our division unless they are playing for the Broncos.

Yep........... we'll see that we don't draft either one at #12.

[BOSSHOGG30]

To be honest.... It will be interesting to see how well each back does without a scrambling QB to take a little of the pressure off of them when they run too. I know Stewart can do it because he did well without Dixon,... but I don't remember seeing Mendenhall do good without Juice Williams. (no saying he didn't but I don't remember)

[lex]

I guess we will have to wait and see... how about for now we just agree that we don't want to see either one of the guys in our division unless they are playing for the Broncos.

I guess that would point to the Raiders since the Chagers and Chiefs have Tomlinson and Johnson. Oakland is not likely to take Mendenhall or Stewart unless they trade down.

[lex]

To be honest.... It will be interesting to see how well each back does without a scrambling QB to take a little of the pressure off of them when they run too. I know Stewart can do it because he did well without Dixon,... but I don't remember seeing Mendenhall do good without Juice Williams. (no saying he didn't but I don't remember)


Mendenhall torched USC when Williams didnt do squat that game. Illinois was outmanned at every position but RB and perhaps CB, and Mendenhall still ran for over 150 on them. Oregon has been better than Illinois longer and has had a leg up on recruiting. The line for Stewart is actually better than Mendenhalls.

[turftoad]

I guess that would point to the Raiders since the Chagers and Chiefs have Tomlinson and Johnson. Oakland is not likely to take Mendenhall or Stewart unless they trade down.

But they could very well take Run DMC. Thinking about it now, we'd better stiffen up our run "D" in a hurry.

[lex]

But they could very well take Run DMC. Thinking about it now, we'd better stiffen up our run "D" in a hurry.

Yeah, they might take McFadden. But the problem with what youre saying is that Ellis and Dorsey are going to be gone the 12th pick comes up. LT makes sense but the team seems intent on giving Harris a shot. 12 is kind of high to take a RT. 12 is also too high to take a safety merely because he has inflated value due to a weak S class. And Connor and Rivers are kind if iffy and even if not, the talent after them is sufficiently good to wait. So that leaves RB as the position of value at 12.

[turftoad]

Yeah, they might take McFadden. But the problem with what youre saying is that Ellis and Dorsey are going to be gone the 12th pick comes up. LT makes sense but the team seems intent on giving Harris a shot. 12 is kind of high to take a RT. 12 is also too high to take a safety merely because he has inflated value due to a weak S class. And Connor and Rivers are kind if iffy and even if not, the talent after them is sufficiently good to wait. So that leaves RB as the position of value at 12.

I agree..... Mayock says one of the top three backs will probably go in the top 10. The rest won't go until 20 or so.
We need to trade up to get more picks and take the guys we NEED at thier percieved value.

[lex]

I agree..... Mayock says one of the top three backs will probably go in the top 10. The rest won't go until 20 or so.
We need to trade up to get more picks and take the guys we NEED at thier percieved value.


Actually he said Mendenhall is a top 20 back but McFadden isnt, although he thinks he will be taken in the top 10 because teams like him.

[turftoad]

Actually he said Mendenhall is a top 20 back but McFadden isnt, although he thinks he will be taken in the top 10 because teams like him.

Not that Mayock know everything. I do like the guy. He's pretty much right on. But if Mendenhall is only a top 20 and the other two aren't, why would we take any of them at #12 unless it was a huge need for us (which if Henry stays it isn't)?

[lex]

Not that Mayock know everything. I do like the guy. He's pretty much right on. But if Mendenhall is only a top 20 and the other two aren't, why would we take any of them at #12 unless it was a huge need for us (which if Henry stays it isn't)?

Im an advocate of Mendenhall and McFadden. I actually disagree with him on McFadden. I actually thought his complaints on McFadden were kind of lame. But I think McFadden is the bigger talent. I think McFaddens biggest problem is that he needs to throttle down like 5%. He seems a little out fo control and I think doing so would help him lower his shoulder and see a cutback. McFadden runs like he is trying to squeeze through a hole in the secondary that may or may not be there when he has to get past the LBs first. Im not really that bothered that he saw McFadden drop passes in traffic. But the thing is too, Oklahoma has had better talent around Peterson including a better passing game and yet, McFadden still had better numbers. And McFadden has been more durable too playing in what is generally considered to be a better conference. Id gladly take McFadden at 12 and Id gladly move up to take McFadden. But out of Mendenhall, McFadden, Stewart, McFadden played on the only team that had absolutely no passing game.

There are also different things to look at. For one, Mayock has Matt Ryan as the top player. Mayock is a BC grad. I think theres a clear bias there. Ryan is a good QB but I dont think he is the top player. I also wouldnt touch Balmer in the top 20. Mayock has him fairly high. Balmer had one good year. Id rather take someone like Moore or Laws in the 2nd or 3rd (hoping we can get there).

I like Mayock. He provides a lot of great analysis but I dont always agree with it. I can see what he's saying but I dont think he always weighs things properly. For example, he has Leodis McKelvin as the #1 CB because he is amazing at breaking on the ball. But his biggest flaw is that he doesnt come up with interceptions. Coming up with interceptions is a pretty big ability to look past when declaring someone the best CB in a class.

[turftoad]

Im an advocate of Mendenhall and McFadden. I actually disagree with him on McFadden. I actually thought his complaints on McFadden were kind of lame. But I think McFadden is the bigger talent. I think McFaddens biggest problem is that he needs to throttle down like 5%. He seems a little out fo control and I think doing so would help him lower his shoulder and see a cutback. McFadden runs like he is trying to squeeze through a hole in the secondary that may or may not be there when he has to get past the LBs first. Im not really that bothered that he saw McFadden drop passes in traffic. But the thing is too, Oklahoma has had better talent around Peterson including a better passing game and yet, McFadden still had better numbers. And McFadden has been more durable too playing in what is generally considered to be a better conference. Id gladly take McFadden at 12 and Id gladly move up to take McFadden. But out of Mendenhall, McFadden, Stewart, McFadden played on the only team that had absolutely no passing game.


I too think McFadden is the first back off the board. Even though we have much bigger needs it would be hard to pass him up at #12.
There were also concern's about AP when came out last year. Skinny legs, runs to upright etc.... Look what he did. He still may be injury prone (yet to be seen) but this is the time that these kids are picked apart and disected by scounts and annalyisists (sp).
Look back a couple of years, I would have loved to have Stephen Jackson and we passed him up also. Shanny doesn't draft RB's very early. I don't see us taking any of the three we are talking about and I'm fine with that.
The sexy offensive pick is always something to get excited about but it's not always reality.

[lex]

I too think McFadden is the first back off the board. Even though we have much bigger needs it would be hard to pass him up at #12.
There were also concern's about AP when came out last year. Skinny legs, runs to upright etc.... Look what he did. He still may be injury prone (yet to be seen) but this is the time that these kids are picked apart and disected by scounts and annalyisists (sp).
Look back a couple of years, I would have loved to have Stephen Jackson and we passed him up also. Shanny doesn't draft RB's very early. I don't see us taking any of the three we are talking about and I'm fine with that.
The sexy offensive pick is always something to get excited about but it's not always reality.

I realize that Portis kind of entrenched Shanahan into thinking the system deserves most of the credit. And while we may have came out of it with Champ, we also havent had a RB thats even close to Portis since then. And during that time we've been mostly addressing defense with picks save the draft when we took Cutler. Basically, Shanahan has been increasingly relying on his own acumen as he has been sacrificing offensive personnel to better the defense. So, I wouldnt be surprised if it has come full circle and we have seen that drafting a RB in the first might not be so bad. A running game would help out Cutler immensely. I know the running game had its moments this year but when we won SBs we were able to dictate terms by being able to run the football. People like to say its all the line but since they seem intent on letting Harris get a crack at LT, getting top shelf RB (like Mendenhall or McFadden who are better than what we have) is a way to improve the running game.

[G_Money]

I dont care. It takes a toll. If you make your living dishing out punishment, you pay the price at some point.

Walter Payton believed that the guy who gives the shots fares better than the guy who takes the shots. He said the reason for his longevity was his willingness to get his pads down and hit the other guy first, all the time.


If I'm going to get hit," Payton said, "why let the guy who's going to hit me get the easiest and best shot? I explode into the guy who's trying to tackle me."

"See, the thing about defensive players is that they want to hit you as hard as they can. They're obsessed with that," Payton said. "My coach at Jackson State, Bob Hill, always said that if you are going to die, you should die hard, never die easily."

Payton and Bettis were two very different backs, but both had the same philosophy - dodge the guys you can, level the guys you can't and you'll last a long time in this league.

Bettis was one of the most nimble big backs I've ever seen, especially early in his career. He used to slide right by would-be tacklers, then shed guys with a shrug of his shoulders and a mean stiffarm and plow over the rest.

There's a lot of carnage on the field around a guy like that, but surprisingly little of it gets through to the back himself.

"Big backs take big punishment" is an over-rated stereotype. Big backs with no wiggle sure do, but Stewart and Mendenhall both have enough wiggle to last a while in the league, IMO.

And the times when they go over their opponents instead of around should be fun to watch too. ;)

~G

[WARHORSE]

I LOOOOVE Stewart...have ever since he was deciding between Tennessee and Oregon. HOWEVER, I'm gonna have to pass on a round 1 RB given the other holes. Now if we somehow managed to sign (or trade for) a FA S AND a LB I believe we could take Stewart at 12 and make a package to get back into round 1 and take Balmer. It wouldn't take too much to do that and we could still land a solid LB in the middle of the draft.

A scenario where we SIGN Hamlin/Gibril Wilson, TRADE FOR Bobby Carpenter, DRAFT Jon Stewart and Balmer AND are still able to sign a mid round LB like Ezra Butler would please me immensely.

Remember folks, we aren't 1 draft away from SB contention. So don't get too pissy if we don't address a need. We can always try to upgrade that spot in 2009.


Is it too early for predictions for next year?

19-0:coffee:

[WARHORSE]

I would be fine with either Stewart or Mendenhall. I think both will be productive and have good careers. If one of them lands here, they will have a much better career.

Im of the same line of thinking in that if we can get a Williams (DT) from Greenbay, then all bets are off and we take the best athlete available in the first round. The first guy who comes in and makes an impact. If its Clady, then its Clady. If its Phillips, then Phillips, if its Stewart.........lets roll.

As long as they make a difference for us, thats what Im looking for.

[broncohead]

Mendenhall has good vision with great cuts. If he can avoid contact he will. He can make 3-4 cuts in one play which doesn't suit the denver zone blocking scheme which is one cut and go. He seems to loose his feet to often after the first hit but falls forward picking an extra yard.

Stewart can drag players with him fighting for extra yards. He doesn't have as much wiggle as Mendenhall but breaks more tackles IMO. When he heads upfield, with his speed, size, and power, you have to square up to tackle him.

IMO, Stewart has the edge. He can return kicks and picks up more yards after first hit.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

The longevity of a program's success has nothing to do with the quality of their players (offensive line) from year to year. Following this logic, Stewart is so much better than Mendenhall because Oregon has been better than Illinois longer. Se how stupid that sounds?

[Scarface]

I don't know about that Lex. I watched the youtubes on him. Looks like he goes down fairly easy for good sized back.

Everything I've seen is a back with good balance that's hard to bring down.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Stewart is the real deal! I don't care what Mike Mayock says... he is also the same guy who has Dujaun Morgan and Reggie Smith ranked over Kenny Phillips, .... I agree with him on that... but most of you don't... so when it comes to runningbacks, why all the sudden do you reference Mike Mayock?

[Scarface]

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d806a7d2e

Here's a good breakdown on Mayock's Top5 backs. He points out a couple of things that interest me. One is how quickly Mendenhall can cut and start running downhill. Two is how Stewart has no burst.

[BOSSHOGG30]

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d806a7d2e

Here's a good breakdown on Mayock's Top5 backs. He points out a couple of things that interest me. One is how quickly Mendenhall can cut and start running downhill. Two is how Stewart has no burst.

Already posted in this thread... only a page or two back too. This is why we are debating who is better...Mendenhall or Stewart.

[BOSSHOGG30]

I love how Mayock uses just the video to make his guy look good. You can go on Youtube and find plenty of video of Stewart's burst and you can find plenty of video of Mendenhall getting blasted by the defenese.

[HolyDiver]

Stewart is the real deal! I don't care what Mike Mayock says... he is also the same guy who has Dujaun Morgan and Reggie Smith ranked over Kenny Phillips, .... I agree with him on that... but most of you don't... so when it comes to runningbacks, why all the sudden do you reference Mike Mayock?


I would like to have him too...............But I'm afraid that does not help the Defense much...............What would we do with Henry, Young and Hall? ................Kind of a waste if you ask me.

[lex]

The longevity of a program's success has nothing to do with the quality of their players (offensive line) from year to year. Following this logic, Stewart is so much better than Mendenhall because Oregon has been better than Illinois longer. Se how stupid that sounds?


Thats a clumsy attempt to make a point and all youve done is create a red herring. The success of the program matters in that man for man, Oregons OLine should be better than Illinois', which it is. And the reason for that is because theyve been more out in front of recruiting longer.

[Scarface]

I love how Mayock uses just the video to make his guy look good. You can go on Youtube and find plenty of video of Stewart's burst and you can find plenty of video of Mendenhall getting blasted by the defenese.

And youtube only shows you the good stuff. Mayock will show you good and bad and use it to make his point. He's never been afraid to state his opinion. He said he rated Leinart with a RD2 grade. He had Donte Whitner going Top 10 and people laughed. Aaron Rodgers slipping to the end of Rd1. Cutler over Young and Leinart at least 6 months before the draft. I've seen more hits than misses with Mayock and I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Scarface]

Already posted in this thread... only a page or two back too. This is why we are debating who is better...Mendenhall or Stewart.

All I saw was a direct link to the front page of NFL.com. Mine was a direct link to Mayock's video. Thanks though.

[MHCBill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwSKFOfc04Q

I think Stewart helps the Broncos the most.... just look at how he did at Oregon. Oregon likes to spread the offense out... they don't rely on a FB. McFadden had a very good full back.

Denver has Cutler and two very good tightends. Shanny likes to spread the offense out for Cutler and he also likes to use two tightend formations as well as two wide outs. Stewart is a good receiver out of the back field and also has the size to protect the QB in pass protection plays. Stewart would excel in Denver's zone blocking scheme as well as give the Broncos a weapon they haven't had in a long time without having a good full back unlike T.D. had with Griffith.

I see nothing but special written all over Stewart. I know we have other needs, but we do have a lot of picks and we would be reaching by taking a DT or safety at 12. I doubt that Ellis and Dorsey slide back to 12, and trading back will be hard because there just isn't anyone in this draft that teams want to trade up to 12 for, unless it is Stewart or a QB that slides for some reason.

If we draft Stewart at 12, we will be set at QB, #1 WR, TE, and RB for a very long time. Throw that in with the fact our o-line is very young and talented and we are looking super strong on offense.

Defense will get better when some of the aging veterans move on and we can bring back some more speed and strength. It's not like we are trading up to get Stewart , so we still have a 2nd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 5th, 7th, and 7th to address the defense. Plus trade bait in Foxworth, Henry, Walker, and Gold to aquire more picks.

Stewart is also a kick returner, so we actually address two areas of need by selecting him.
I'm sold.

[CoachChaz]

Maycock, Gosselin, Kiper...it's all subject to interpretation. None of them were high on TD or Brady either, but look what those guys did. It all comes down to the right guy in the right system under the right coach. Let's be honest...either of the 3 backs would excel in Denver.

[BOSSHOGG30]

And youtube only shows you the good stuff. Mayock will show you good and bad and use it to make his point. He's never been afraid to state his opinion. He said he rated Leinart with a RD2 grade. He had Donte Whitner going Top 10 and people laughed. Aaron Rodgers slipping to the end of Rd1. Cutler over Young and Leinart at least 6 months before the draft. I've seen more hits than misses with Mayock and I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

He is all over Mendenhall's nuts... you said he isn't afraid to point out the good and bad of a player... then why doesn't he mention the bad about Mendenhall? He never mentions his fumbling problem... he never talks about how he swings the football away from his body when he makes cuts. He doesn't show any video of Mendenhall asorbing hits by defenders... he does however find the negatives of McFadden and Stewart and doesn't really show the good in each athlete besides Stewart has good hands and McFadden is fast.

He is pumping up his selection by putting together a video that shows Mendenhall being better based on just the things he talks about which aren't really %100 true.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Use this to rank each player and then total up your score...lets see how everyone ranks each back:

Score each player from 1-10 (10 being the best score) on each attribute

Vision:
Stewart
Mendenhall

Power:
Stewart
Mendenhall

Speed:
Stewart
Mendenhall

Agility:
Stewart
Mendenhall

Stamina:
Stewart
Mendenhall

Hands:
Stewart
Mendenhall

Cut back ability:
Stewart
Mendenhall

Ball control:
Stewart
Mendenhall

Versatility:
Stewart
Mendenhall

Breaking Tackles:
Stewart
Mendenhall

Pass Protection:
Stewart
Mendenhall

Total:
Stewart
Mendenhall

[CoachChaz]

I'll score it like a boxing card

Vision:
Stewart - 9
Mendenhall - 10

Power:
Stewart - 10
Mendenhall - 9

Speed:
Stewart - 10
Mendenhall - 9

Agility:
Stewart - 9
Mendenhall - 10

Stamina:
Stewart - 9
Mendenhall - 9

Hands:
Stewart - 10
Mendenhall - 9

Cut back ability:
Stewart - 9
Mendenhall - 10

Ball control:
Stewart - 10
Mendenhall - 9

Versatility:
Stewart - 10
Mendenhall - 9

Breaking Tackles:
Stewart - 10
Mendenhall - 9

Pass Protection:
Stewart - 10
Mendenhall - 9

Total:
Stewart - 106
Mendenhall - 102

[BOSSHOGG30]

Mine:

Vision:
Stewart 9 (very close to Mendenhall, but give edge to Stewart because of experience and return ability)
Mendenhall 8

Power:
Stewart 9 (very close again,but Stewart is the bigger and stronger back)
Mendenhall 8

Speed:
Stewart 8
Mendenhall 9 (very close both backs have break away speed, but Mendenhall is more of a homerun threat)

Agility:
Stewart 7
Mendenhall 8 (Mendenhall size allows him to more a little more agile on his feet)

Stamina:
Stewart 9 (Stewart has a history of wearing down defenses, this one could actually go either way, so feel free to take away a point if you must from my total score)
Mendenhall 8

Hands:
Stewart 9 (Stewart has amazing hands out of the back field)
Mendenhall 7 (Mendenhall has good hands, but nothing great)

Cut back ability:
Stewart 8
Mendenhall 9 (Mendenhall has the edge, his size allows him to play lighter on his feet, can make more than one cut back if he needs to, Stewart is more of a one cut down hill runner, similar to TD was in Denver)

Ball control:
Stewart 9 (Stewart rarely fumbles and Mendenhall coughs up the ball every now and then, but Mendenhall can be taught to fix that if he keeps ball tucked in when making cuts)
Mendenhall 7

Versatility:
Stewart 9 (Stewart excels at just about everything...very complete back)
Mendenhall 7

Breaking Tackles:
Stewart 9 (both break a lot of tackles.... Stewart probably has the edge, but I will keep the score tied because I think Mendenhall is under-rated in this department)
Mendenhall 9

Pass Protection:
Stewart 9 (both have the size and are more than willing blockers)
Mendenhall 9

Stewart 95/ 110
Mendenhall 89/110

[mclark]

Stewart, no burst?

I think one of the things that might make this seem true is that Stewart runs so effortlessly. He accelerates. Maybe it isn't a burst -- it's an acceleration. Five kickoff returns for touchdowns does indicate he does play at more speeds than one.

Clearly Mayock thinks he's good or he wouldn't have him his #3 back.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Stewart, no burst?

I think one of the things that might make this seem true is that Stewart runs so effortlessly. He accelerates. Maybe it isn't a burst -- it's an acceleration. Five kickoff returns for touchdowns does indicate he does play at more speeds than one.

Clearly Mayock thinks he's good or he wouldn't have him his #3 back.

He says in the video that he doesn't consider Stewart a 1st round back, even though he will probably go in the 1st round and he also stats that he has Mendenhall at 7th in the country as far as runningbacks go and McFadden and Stewart aren't even in his top 20 or 25... i forget.

[BOSSHOGG30]

http://www.jonathanstewart.org/

Big things were expected from one of program’s highest profile recruits in recent years and he didn’t disappoint, leading the country in kickoff returns as a true freshman (33.7 avg.). Jonathan Stewart seldom has the program benefitted from a talent at such an early age as he combines the best of size, speed and tremendous strength. Not only did Jonathan Stewart surpass school record for top power clean by a running back, his 385 lbs. during winter testing was bettered only by pair of program’s former defensive linemen now in the NFL (Haloti Ngata, Igor Olshansky). Also bested career positional bench press record (410 lbs.) while 38.5 vertical leap stands second all time. His 4.34 40 hand time ranks as school’s fourth-fastest all-time among running backs. Jonathan Stewart has displayed exceptional intelligence to complement his natural talent, possessing knack to avoid tacklers in the open field, game-breaking speed as well as the power that makes him hard to bring down from the first hit, sometimes to a fault. Jonathan Stewart maintains the uncanny balance to fall forward when finally brought down. Jonathan Stewart also benefits from dependable hands as a receiver and utilizes great strength to develop into a very good pass blocker. Yet perhaps Jonathan Stewart greatest asset is a drive to settle for nothing but the very best. Led all rushers with 74 yards and one touchdown in the 2006 Spring Game.

[mclark]

He says in the video that he doesn't consider Stewart a 1st round back, even though he will probably go in the 1st round and he also stats that he has Mendenhall at 7th in the country as far as runningbacks go and McFadden and Stewart aren't even in his top 20 or 25... i forget.

That's not what I heard. He did say none of these backs were an Adrian Peterson so none should go above 10. But that his top five backs will probably all go in the first round.

I take Stewart over Mendenhall -- but I'm much more familiar with Stewart. Which of the two would you rather have running the ball in the red zone? I'd want Stewart, who has a foward lean and almost never goes down with one tackler. But Stewart isn't one-dimensional. He can take the ball 80 yards too, because of his speed. He's an excellent kickoff return man, and would give our special teams a boost.

I know Stewart much better than Mendenhall. Stewart is a pounder: 3 yards, 5 yards, 3 yards, 18 yards. He just wears down the defense.

[slim]

Many people compare D-Mac to Adrian Peterson, and there’s the common misconception that he’s a bigger guy. McFadden is listed at 6′2, 205. take a look at the height/weight ratios of the top 20 running backs in yardage from this year:
1.) Ladainian Tomlinson (5′10, 221)
2.) Adrian Peterson (6′1, 220)
3.) Brian Westbrook (5′10, 205)
4.) Willie Parker (5′10, 210)
5.) Jamal Lewis (5′11, 245)
6.) Clinton Portis (5′11, 220)
7.) Edgerrin James (6′0, 220)
8.) Willis McGahee (6′0, 232)
9.) Fred Taylor (6′1, 228)
10.) Thomas Jones (5′10, 215)
11.) Marshawn Lynch (5′11, 215)
12.) LenDale White (6′1, 235)
13.) Frank Gore (5′9, 223)
14.) Joseph Addai (5′11, 214)
15.) Justin Fargas (6′1, 220)
16.) Brandon Jacobs (6′4, 264)
17.) Steven Jackson (6′1, 231)
18.) Marion Barber (6′0, 221)
19.) Ryan Grant (6′1, 224)
20.) Earnest Graham (5′9, 225)

There are only 2 players listed UNDER 215, Willie Parker and Brian Westbrook. Both of those players run between the tackles and get tough yards, something McFadden does not do. Not mention they are both 3 inches shorter as well. As for the comparison to Peterson, his build isn’t even close to AP. Adrian Peterson is 6′2, 220. If you don’t remember, last year at the combine, AP was one of the strongest running backs. Watch McFadden run compared to Peterson. McFadden hits holes fasts, explodes through them, and runs 60 yards barely touched. Peterson would break like 5 tackles on his way to a 60 yard run. Watch these videos. Although it’s a small portion of their carries, you can see the difference in running styles. It’s not even close.

McFadden is like Reggie Bush in my opinion, only 2 inches taller with less agility. He does not have the ability to run over someone. He has a good stiff-arm. But in the NFL, linebackers and safeties are much faster and stronger and he will not be able to rely on that. The most successful runners in the NFL have the ability to run through tackles and bounce of people.

When I say he doesn’t have great agility, I mean that he’ll have to be a speed back in the NFL to be successful, and to be a speed back, you have to have amazing agility. Guys like Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn come to mind. They can’t break tackles, but they can move laterally so quickly to make people miss. He won’t be able to run past everyone in the NFL.

There’s a huge difference between being a college RB and an NFL RB. McFadden is a great college RB.

After watching him in a few Arkansas games this year, McFadden wont initiate contact to defenders, he tries to run around them. The guys that can initiate contact and explode into defenders are the ones that are successful in the NFL. Peterson, Jones-Drew, Ryan Grant, Brian Westbrook, LT, just a few that come to mind that make their living by playing physically.

So Who’s Number 1 RB?

Personally, I believe that Jonathan Stewart is the number 1 running prospect this year. He’s 5′11, 230 lbs. Has been clocked at a 4.34. Will be the strongest running back in this class. Check out his profile on Oregon’s website. His measurables are unbelievable. He’s more of a pro-style running back, but he played in an option system at Oregon that fits the style of more of a speed back like Slaton/Devine over at West Virginia.

I know I disagree with most of the “experts” on this one. But how many times have these “experts” been wrong. Reggie Bush was supposed to be the best player to come out since Barry Sanders. Charles Rogers was supposed to be the next Randy Moss. Mike Williams was supposed to be the next Keyshawn. Cedric Benson the next Ricky Williams. I could go on and on. Once again, they’ll be wrong.

I haven't had time to read through the thread, but I couldn't agree more about McFadden...I just don't get the comparisons to AD.

Of course, I'm not a huge Stewart fan either. Give me Mendenhall.

[underrated29]

once the combine rolls around all three are going to turn heads and raise their stock. Remeber chris henry from last year. Mike bells back up, went from 3-4 all the way to 2nd rd, some thought 1st.

I have yet to see any of these guys run except for a couple clips of mcfadd, and i already rank them as better players then henry. DMAC,Mendenhall,stewart will all go in the first and all probably before 22. Thats without looking at team needs too.

Someone will move up to grab them if they are there.....

someone said earlier if we can get a good dt before we draft then RB is cool and i agree. IF we can get rodgers,willimas,jenkins <-doubtful. Then taking one of them at 12 is cool.

Ideally I would like us to get a dt, trade back and pick up an extra 2nd. THEN take whatever RB is there at our #1 pick we traded back for. THen use our 1st 2nd on LB and the 2nd, 2nd on WR/kr(which i think we are going to do anyway.)

[BOSSHOGG30]

Stewart is a bigger version of Maurice Jones Drew.

[mclark]

Stewart is a bigger version of Maurice Jones Drew.

A couple years ago someone on this board was screaming "Draft Maurice Jones-Drew". I really wish we would have. But we we still haunted by the memory of our own mighty-might Mr. Griffin.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

A couple years ago someone on this board was screaming "Draft Maurice Jones-Drew". I really wish we would have. But we we still haunted by the memory of our own mighty-might Mr. Griffin.

The Broncos, really liked Jones-Drew. I was screaming for him on the Mane and Mania, but nobody thought he'd do anything because of his size. Too bad for us, he punks everyone.

[BOSSHOGG30]

The Broncos, really liked Jones-Drew. I was screaming for him on the Mane and Mania, but nobody thought he'd do anything because of his size. Too bad for us, he punks everyone.

I was one of those guys who questioned his size... I must be honest.... I was so wrong!

[mclark]

I was one of those guys who questioned his size... I must be honest.... I was so wrong!

I didn't take him too seriously either, because of size. One of my many draft mistakes.

[MHCBill]

And here I thought only the pro scouting departments made mistakes. j/k :)

No one's perfect.

Boss is close.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Stewart's 2007 Year
280 attempts for 1722 yards, 6.2 average, 11 TD's

Houston
67
@Michigan
111
Fresno State
165
@Stanford
160
California
120
Washington State
66
@Washington
251
USC
103
Arizona State
99
@Arizona
131
@UCLA
33
Oregon State
163
South Florida
253

[lex]

Mine:

Vision:
Stewart 9 (very close to Mendenhall, but give edge to Stewart because of experience and return ability)
Mendenhall 8

Power:
Stewart 9 (very close again,but Stewart is the bigger and stronger back)
Mendenhall 8

Speed:
Stewart 8
Mendenhall 9 (very close both backs have break away speed, but Mendenhall is more of a homerun threat)

Agility:
Stewart 7
Mendenhall 8 (Mendenhall size allows him to more a little more agile on his feet)

Stamina:
Stewart 9 (Stewart has a history of wearing down defenses, this one could actually go either way, so feel free to take away a point if you must from my total score)
Mendenhall 8

Hands:
Stewart 9 (Stewart has amazing hands out of the back field)
Mendenhall 7 (Mendenhall has good hands, but nothing great)

Cut back ability:
Stewart 8
Mendenhall 9 (Mendenhall has the edge, his size allows him to play lighter on his feet, can make more than one cut back if he needs to, Stewart is more of a one cut down hill runner, similar to TD was in Denver)

Ball control:
Stewart 9 (Stewart rarely fumbles and Mendenhall coughs up the ball every now and then, but Mendenhall can be taught to fix that if he keeps ball tucked in when making cuts)
Mendenhall 7

Versatility:
Stewart 9 (Stewart excels at just about everything...very complete back)
Mendenhall 7

Breaking Tackles:
Stewart 9 (both break a lot of tackles.... Stewart probably has the edge, but I will keep the score tied because I think Mendenhall is under-rated in this department)
Mendenhall 9

Pass Protection:
Stewart 9 (both have the size and are more than willing blockers)
Mendenhall 9

Stewart 95/ 110
Mendenhall 89/110

Youre double dipping. Power and breaking tackles are essentially the same thing. Instead you of power, breaking tackles, and agility, you should have two variations of balance: Balance/tackle breaking & Balance/agility.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Youre double dipping. Power and breaking tackles are essentially the same thing. Instead you of power, breaking tackles, and agility, you should have two variations of balance: Balance/tackle breaking & Balance/agility.

Power and breaking tackles are two different things... You power your way for a first down or power yourself over the goal line... Breaking tackles is different and usually results in bigger gains. You rarely see Stewart go down on first contact... it takes more than one man to bring him down. This is also power... the next attribute is how well he breaks that tackle once the first defender grasp him or approaches him.

[lex]

Vision:
Stewart 8
Mendenhall 10

Power:
Stewart 9
Mendenhall 9

Speed:
Stewart 8
Mendenhall 9

Agility:
Stewart 8
Mendenhall 10

Stamina:
Stewart 9
Mendenhall 9


Hands
Carry:
Stewart 9
Mendenhall 8

Catch
Stewart 8
Mendenhall 9

Cut back ability:
Stewart 8
Mendenhall 9

Ball control:
Stewart see carry
Mendenhall

Versatility:
Stewart NA
Mendenhall NA
Too close to tell. Stewrt is better on the floor routine but Mendenhall is better on the uneven bars.

Breaking Tackles:
Stewart 10
Mendenhall 9

Pass Protection:
Stewart 9
Mendenhall 9

Total:
Stewart 86
Mendenhall 91

[lex]

Power and breaking tackles are two different things... You power your way for a first down or power yourself over the goal line... Breaking tackles is different and usually results in bigger gains. You rarely see Stewart go down on first contact... it takes more than one man to bring him down. This is also power... the next attribute is how well he breaks that tackle once the first defender grasp him or approaches him.

Everything you just said is a function of strength/power.

Another flaw with your system is that its in no way weighted by significance.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Everything you just said is a function of strength/power.

Another flaw with your system is that its in no way weighted by significance.

Make us up one lex so we can all rate the proper way then. I don't see how Power/strenght isn't an attribute you would want to look at in a back, but whatever... post up something better so we can rate.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Maybe we should to

Balance
Vision/Awareness
Agility/Elusiveness
Strength
Stamina
Blocking
Catching
Intelligence

For lex?

[BOSSHOGG30]

Balance
Stewart: 9
Mendenhall: 9

Both have to have good balance to do what they do... I don't know if one guy has the edge here over the other, so I keep it a tie.

Vision/Awareness:
Stewart: 9
Mendenhall: 8
Consistency is the biggest thing here... Tie breaker has to go to the guy who returns kicks and has more college experience.

Agility/Elusiveness:
Stewart: 8
Mendenhall: 9
Mendenhall plays lighter on his feet and can make mulitple people miss without having to run over them.

Strength
Stewart: 9
Mendenhall: 8
Stewarts numbers are off the chart. Mendenhall may be the only back who can compare, but Stewart is a beast on the field and in the weight room. Stewart takes defenders for rides for another 3 or 4 yards.

Stamina
Stewart: 9
Mendenhall: 9
Both guys have shown they can carry the load for their teams.

Blocking
Stewart: 9
Mendenhall: 8
One of Stewarts biggest attributes... he is known as one of the best blocking runningbacks in the draft. He knows how to use his big body to protect the QB.

Catching
Stewart: 9
Mendenhall: 7
Stewart does more than Mendenhall in this category because he doesn't just catch the screen pass or dump pass like Mendenhall does... he can run routes and make catches over the middle or even go deep. He is known for his great hands.

Intelligence
Stewart: 9
Mendenhall: 9
Can't really rate this one from my point of view.

Total
Stewart: 71
Mendenhall: 67

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Arguing about Stewart and Mendenhall is like arguing about what's a better pizza topping. Pizza's good anyway you want it baby! I'd take both of them.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Arguing about Stewart and Mendenhall is like arguing about what's a better pizza topping. Pizza's good anyway you want it baby! I'd take both of them.

Yeah, but Papa John's is better than Pizza Hut

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Yeah, but Papa John's is better than Pizza Hut

You make a damn good point. I'd disagree with you though. Now I'm hungry.

[slim]

Yeah, but Papa John's is better than Pizza Hut

All the national chains suck. Gotta go with a mom 'n pop pizzeria...that's where the good stuff is at.

BTW, Mendenhall will be a better pro than Stewart. :D

[BOSSHOGG30]

All the national chains suck. Gotta go with a mom 'n pop pizzeria...that's where the good stuff is at.

i will tell you guys the best place to order pizza... screw the grocery store... go to: http://www.giordanos.com/

They have the best pizza

Gino's isn't bad either:
http://featuredfoods.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/a-store/c-GinoAns_East.shtml?E+scstore+ginos

[underrated29]

PAPA johns is soo good, aminly because of their garlic souce. No one else, even comes close to a good garlic souce like the papa. I only like pizza huts stuffed crust- the rest just doesnt taste good to me.

Pudge brothers and little ceasars are the two best though.


eeehmm. i mean stewart strenght is like papas garlic, no one comes close. and mendenhalls shiftiness is like the stuffed crust- its the only thing i like about it. now i am back on topic.

[slim]

i will tell you guys the best place to order pizza... screw the grocery store... go to: http://www.giordanos.com/

They have the best pizza

Gino's isn't bad either:
http://featuredfoods.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/a-store/c-GinoAns_East.shtml?E+scstore+ginos

I went to Giordanos last time I was in Chicago. I like Ginos better.

I also like Mendenhall better :D

[BOSSHOGG30]

I went to Giordanos last time I was in Chicago. I like Ginos better.

I also like Mendenhall better :D

Did you get their deep dish pizza? Gino's is good ... i have to admit... It was a hard choice to make... But I love deep dish pizza and Giordanos was over the top because I swear they put crack in their sauce... It is addictive.

[slim]

Did you get their deep dish pizza? Gino's is good ... i have to admit... It was a hard choice to make... But I love deep dish pizza and Giordanos was over the top because I swear they put crack in their sauce... It is addictive.

Yeah, I got the deep dish. Don't get me wrong, I liked it. I was in Chicago for 3 days and I think I gained 10 pounds.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Yeah, I got the deep dish. Don't get me wrong, I liked it. I was in Chicago for 3 days and I think I gained 10 pounds.

I wouldn't doubt it... they aren't kidding when they say deep dish.... those pizza's are huge!

It is great that they will ship them to you... of course it isn't as good as the real deal, but it blows away any grocery store pizza... might as well hop online and order the good stuff and stick in your freezer.

[mclark]

Stewart's 2007 Year
280 attempts for 1722 yards, 6.2 average, 11 TD's



South Florida
253

The South Forida game was especially impressive as Stewart had a turf toe so big he could barely get his shoe on.

[BOSSHOGG30]

The South Forida game was especially impressive as Stewart had a turf toe so big he could barely get his shoe on.

This years draft reminds me of the D.J. Williams draft....

Steven Jackson was right there and we went Defense.... Defense was a big need, don't get me wrong, but we had a chance at Steven Jackson and let him pass... good thing D.J. Williams is a stud linebacker.... this year I don't really see any stud linebackers, DT, or Safeties at 12 that are worth picking that early. This is why I hope we don't pass up on Stewart or Mendenhall at 12.... it will help us in the long run if we take a stud back now.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Mendenhall's 2007 game by game yards

Missouri
33
Western Illinois
139
@Syracuse
150
@Indiana
214
Penn State
76
Wisconsin
160
@Iowa
67
Michigan
85
Ball State
189
@Minnesota
201
@Ohio State
88
Northwestern
124

[BOSSHOGG30]

Mendenhall really struggled against some of the better defenses in college football.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I didn't know that Stewart would just turn 21 before the draft. I like that age.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Thats a clumsy attempt to make a point and all youve done is create a red herring. The success of the program matters in that man for man, Oregons OLine should be better than Illinois', which it is. And the reason for that is because theyve been more out in front of recruiting longer.

Then explain the success of Rutgers recently and their awesome OLine play. Nice try though. You know your point was dumb. Just deal with it.

Why should it be better? I could just as easily point out that the Oregon OLine is simply different than that of the Illini because of offensive styles. I could say that Illinois' is better because they can get those big cornbred farm boys from the Big10 to move the pile. To assume the Oregon OLine is better than Illinois because they have been better for a handful of years makes no sense. USC came on the scene REAL QUICK once they got their coach. R U saying their Olines were garbage cuz they sucked for a long time prior to Pete Carroll?

[lex]

Then explain the success of Rutgers recently and their awesome OLine play. Nice try though. You know your point was dumb. Just deal with it.

Why should it be better? I could just as easily point out that the Oregon OLine is simply different than that of the Illini because of offensive styles. I could say that Illinois' is better because they can get those big cornbred farm boys from the Big10 to move the pile. To assume the Oregon OLine is better than Illinois because they have been better for a handful of years makes no sense. USC came on the scene REAL QUICK once they got their coach. R U saying their Olines were garbage cuz they sucked for a long time prior to Pete Carroll?

No chappy, Im basing it off of where Ive seen guys projected to go. Oregon had more guys projected to go higher.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Projected to go where higher??? How many Duck OL have you ever seen drafted in the past 5 years? 10 years? I can't think of 1. I'm sure there would have to be at least 1 or 2, but the fact that none come to mind tells me ya may be giving a bit too much credit to the quality of the Oregon OL.

[lex]

Projected to go where higher??? How many Duck OL have you ever seen drafted in the past 5 years? 10 years? I can't think of 1. I'm sure there would have to be at least 1 or 2, but the fact that none come to mind tells me ya may be giving a bit too much credit to the quality of the Oregon OL.

N/m. I got Cals and Oregons linemen mixed up somehow I was thinking Gibson and Mack.

[topscribe]

WR: Why would we can Walker, then try to replace someone such as him in
the draft? Ain't gonna happen. Ridiculous. Soothe feelings, kiss and make
up, and put him to work. With Walker, Marshall, and Stokley, the best trio
in football (except maybe the Patriots), why would we need an overhaul?

RB: We have Henry. He led the NFL in rushing through the first five games.
We have Young, who Shanny himself said makes everyone else "look like
they're in slow motion" at times. Henry has a new attitude. Young is bulking
up, he said. Toss them and then draft one? :der:


DT (1), S (2), and OT (3). Barring such a level of available talent that
makes taking the "best talent available" undebatable, those are the pending
holes, with DT and safety the only sure immediate, desperate needs
(barring a bust at OT, which could happen).

Safety qualifies as "immediate and desperate." Even if Lynch doesn't retire,
I don't see him returning in 2009. Then what?

As for DT, the Broncos are not strong in the trenches, defensively. And
teams that are strong in the trenches are the ones that win Super Bowls.

But Stewart or no Stewart, I personally believe it would be silly to entertain
a RB in the first round. Just silly.

-----

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I'm not saying Mendenhall isn't good. I simply don't think that it should be assumed Oregon has the better OLine. Neither are THAT highly touted and both play an open style which sometimes make it hard to trditionally assess OL play.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

WR: Why would we can Walker, then try to replace someone such as him in
the draft? Ain't gonna happen. Ridiculous. Soothe feelings, kiss and make
up, and put him to work. With Walker, Marshall, and Stokley, the best trio
in football (except maybe the Patriots), why would we need an overhaul?

RB: We have Henry. He led the NFL in rushing through the first five games.
We have Young, who Shanny himself said makes everyone else "look like
they're in slow motion" at times. Henry has a new attitude. Young is bulking
up, he said. Toss them and then draft back? :der:


DT (1), S (2), and OT (3). Barring such a level of available talent that
makes taking the "best talent available" undebatable, those are the pending
holes, with DT and safety the only sure immediate, desperate needs
(barring a bust at OT, which could happen).

Safety qualifies as "immediate and desperate." Even if Lynch doesn't retire,
I don't see him returning in 2009. Then what?

But Stewart or no Stewart, I personally believe it would be silly to entertain
a RB in the first round. Just silly.

-----

I personally think Henry can still be a stud here...but I'm also biased. He just needs to stay healthy. he showed what he can do and his talents can be questioned...nor can his heart. He just has to stay on the field.

[broncohead]

WR: Why would we can Walker, then try to replace someone such as him in
the draft? Ain't gonna happen. Ridiculous. Soothe feelings, kiss and make
up, and put him to work. With Walker, Marshall, and Stokley, the best trio
in football (except maybe the Patriots), why would we need an overhaul?

RB: We have Henry. He led the NFL in rushing through the first five games.
We have Young, who Shanny himself said makes everyone else "look like
they're in slow motion" at times. Henry has a new attitude. Young is bulking
up, he said. Toss them and then draft one? :der:


DT (1), S (2), and OT (3). Barring such a level of available talent that
makes taking the "best talent available" undebatable, those are the pending
holes, with DT and safety the only sure immediate, desperate needs
(barring a bust at OT, which could happen).

Safety qualifies as "immediate and desperate." Even if Lynch doesn't retire,
I don't see him returning in 2009. Then what?

As for DT, the Broncos are not strong in the trenches, defensively. And
teams that are strong in the trenches are the ones that win Super Bowls.

But Stewart or no Stewart, I personally believe it would be silly to entertain
a RB in the first round. Just silly.

-----

You are 100% right on the RB issue. As long as we have Henry we won't be looking for a starter in FA or the draft.

[BOSSHOGG30]

When on earth will everyone learn that Henry's running style and his body type don't hold up for 16 NFL games... and then even more if you make the playoff...which is the goal and the most important time you need a runningback.... He just can't... if you don't get that after his 5+ years of injury plagued years then I don't know if you will ever catch on.... he can not be counted on!

As for Young... he still is young and maybe his health will improve, but he too has injury concerns that go back all the way through his college career.

If you want to rely on Henry and Young for 16 regular season games, plus the playoff's good feakin luck!

[MHCBill]

Boss really has me rethinking this.

Maybe Stewart at 12 is the right player for the future.

We all know that we are not winning the Super Bowl in '08 so we must continue to look towards 3-5 years from now.

Stewart, Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, the youngsters along the Oline would provide the right talent coupled with the right experience in a few years to be Super Bowl contenders.

The question still remains though, how to fix the defense?

The first thing is the d-coordinator must be good and must be able to stay in the position for a while. I still think Coyer was shown the door too soon because of the second half of the '06 season they wore down. The Bates experiment was a total failure. I hope Slowick brings back an aggressive blitzing scheme and utilizes the talent correctly. If there are some bad times or spikes then we need to ride them out, but I just don't see the point of firing Slowick after one or two years. Give his system some time.

The players must get better too. We need more talent, size, strength, and execution. They must be good tacklers, especially in a blitzing schemed defense.

DJ needs to play Will. It's where his athleticsm will pay the most dividends. We need to draft a new MLB. Sam to me is a position where you do not need the "star" playmaker, but a good professional tackler. Someone that can stand up to the run and know his role on the team.

We must get another safety and let Abdullah grow into his position. We're not winning in '08 so the experience Abdullah gains will help us in the future.

Lastly, the Dline needs more attention. Draft another DT. Find some more physical, "every-down" DE's like Crowder. Moss and Doom are both destined to be pass rush specialists, which is fine. I have no problem letting them go nuts on third down and later in games when teams must pass 80% of the time to keep up with our offense.

Maybe I'll have to change my sig... Stewart in round one and Castille in round four.

[BOSSHOGG30]

1st: RB, Jonathon Stewart, Oregon
Best talent at 12 by far...gives us another playmaker to help Cutler and Marshall.

2nd: OLB, Philip Wheeler, Georgia Tech
Excellent player and value in the 2nd round. Can play MLB or OLB. Gives us the option to move D.J. to WILL.

4th: S, Wesley Woodyard, Kentucky
G really likes this guy and believes he can be a play maker at safety. He is starting to grow on me too. We need a safety and I will go with Gmoney on this pick.

4th: FB, Jehuu Caulrick, Michigan St.
We need a true fullback. Caulrick is huge and powerful and can open holes. This guy will not only help in short yardage situations, but he will protect Stewart and allow him to hit the next level with ease.

5th: WR, Devin Thomas, Michigan St.
Very under-rated... He will be an absolute steal for whoever takes him in the draft... Good size, speed, and very good hands. He will make a good #2 next to Marshall. A lot of you may not of heard of him, but I'm telling you this guy is good!

5th: OLB/DE, Andrew Studebaker, Wheaton
Guy comes from small school, many of you won't like that, but his stats are off the chart and he is a big guy who has been clocked in the 4.4 range. He is a great project for a 5th round pick and can help the team in many areas. Plays with rage too, which I like. Reminds me of Bill Romo.

7th: OT, Derek Uperesa, St Francis (PA.)
Another project, but I like his upside and I think he will give Denver an instant backup and may project into a starter after a couple years. Denver likes to mold their offensive lineman and I think this guy fits the bill.

7th: P, Mike Dragosavich , North Dakota St.
This guy has one hell of a leg and one of the few directional punters in the draft. Denver needs a punter and someone who doesn't just rely on a big leg, but can kick out of bounce and keep the ball away from players like Hester

[CoachChaz]

Mine will change 100 times befoe the draft, but here's where I'm at now.

1. Kenny Phillips...When he's playing in perennial Pro-Bowls, we'll see how overrated he is.
2. Pat Sims...Solid DT to help Marcu Thomas and the other youngsters on the line.
4. Jamal Charles...Quick back in the Clinton Portis mold.
4. Wesley Woodyard...the second part of our rebuilt safety tandem
5. Chad Rhinehart...Solid young tackle to push the current incumbents.
5. Jonathan Goff...Solid LB for depth and maybe a starter
7. Paul Hubbard...Young receiver to round out the corps
7. Terrence Wheatley...solid CB for depth

[BOSSHOGG30]

Mine will change 100 times befoe the draft, but here's where I'm at now.

1. Kenny Phillips...When he's playing in perennial Pro-Bowls, we'll see how overrated he is.
2. Pat Sims...Solid DT to help Marcu Thomas and the other youngsters on the line.
4. Jamal Charles...Quick back in the Clinton Portis mold.
4. Wesley Woodyard...the second part of our rebuilt safety tandem
5. Chad Rhinehart...Solid young tackle to push the current incumbents.
5. Jonathan Goff...Solid LB for depth and maybe a starter
7. Paul Hubbard...Young receiver to round out the corps
7. Terrence Wheatley...solid CB for depth


If Jamal Charles last till the 4th round I will give you 10 dollars
If Goff Last till the 5th round I will give you another 10 dollars
If Wheatly last till the 7th round I will give you another 10 dollars

So you have a chance to win 30 dollars.
Seriously

I just don't see that happening.

[CoachChaz]

If Jamal Charles last till the 4th round I will give you 10 dollars
If Goff Last till the 5th round I will give you another 10 dollars
If Wheatly last till the 7th round I will give you another 10 dollars

So you have a chance to win 30 dollars.
Seriously

I just don't see that happening.

Fair enough. Like I said, it will change before the draft I'm sure, but you know all too well that there are always players that slip further than expected while some surprises end up going earlier than expected.

Wheatly could be 5th round talent, but he could very easily drop if some of the guys in his range go sooner.

Unless Goff runs a better time, he will be a 5th rounder.

Charles is a coin flip. It all depends on how many RB's go in the first.

[MHCBill]

If Jamal Charles last till the 4th round I will give you 10 dollars
If Goff Last till the 5th round I will give you another 10 dollars
If Wheatly last till the 7th round I will give you another 10 dollars

So you have a chance to win 30 dollars.
Seriously

I just don't see that happening.Looking at your sig... what would be the Broncos '08 starting offense/defense?

[BOSSHOGG30]

QB-Cutler..................DE-Crowder
RB-Young/Stewart(R)..DE-Doom
LT-Harris/Pears...........DT-Thomas
LG-Kuper................DT-Williams (FA)
C-Hamilton/Nalen......WLB-Carpenter
RG-Holland..............MLB- Williams/Wheeler
RT-Harris/Pears..........SLB-Wheeler/Winborn
TE-Graham..............CB-Champ
TE-Scheffler............CB-Dre
WR-Marshall.............SS-Lynch/Woodyard
WR-Stokely.............FS-Abullah/Rogers
WR-Thomas(R)
FB-Caulrick (R)

I think this will help us the most... we are still a year or two from being contenders again... you can't address every need, but this is a well rounded draft that gives us a chance... I think the following year you have to look at improving SS unless Rogers can come through, and you have to evaluate the progress of the young o-line as well.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Fair enough. Like I said, it will change before the draft I'm sure, but you know all too well that there are always players that slip further than expected while some surprises end up going earlier than expected.

Wheatly could be 5th round talent, but he could very easily drop if some of the guys in his range go sooner.

Unless Goff runs a better time, he will be a 5th rounder.

Charles is a coin flip. It all depends on how many RB's go in the first.

I like the guys you have there, but I don't see all those guys sliding.. that would be very shocking... but I do agree with you... players do slide. I might be out 30 bucks if they do too.... that would suck.

[MHCBill]

Boss, two questions.

First, Doom as an every-down DE?

Second, is Carpenter athletic enough to be a good Will? I was thinking more DJ-WLB, Wheeler-SLB/MLB, Carpenter-MLB/SLB.

[CoachChaz]

I like the guys you have there, but I don't see all those guys sliding.. that would be very shocking... but I do agree with you... players do slide. I might be out 30 bucks if they do too.... that would suck.

I'd never hold you to the offer. I understand the point you're trying to make. Not to mention...I'm sure I'll change my mind 100 times before April.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Boss, two questions.

First, Doom as an every-down DE?

Second, is Carpenter athletic enough to be a good Will? I was thinking more DJ-WLB, Wheeler-SLB/MLB, Carpenter-MLB/SLB.

It would be up to the coaches, but I like that linebacker core, so I think it would improve our team greatly. It gives us a lot of size and decent speed.

I like Doom as a starter... I'm not sure he is an every down DE... I know what you are saying... I like Studebaker who can play DE and linebacker, he can fill in for the rotation that Denver likes to do.. plus we will have Engelberger and Moss, possibly Ekuban as well. On running downs I like Crowder, Thomas, Williams, and Ekuban if we keep him if not I like Moss if he adds some strength and about 10 pounds of muscle. I think the addition of Carpenter and Wheeler will help us on the D-line because no matter what we do we will be short handed at at least one DE position with the talent we have currently. Carpenter and Wheelers size, speed, and strength help greatly and would allow us to keep one undersized DE in the game.

[BOSSHOGG30]

I'd never hold you to the offer. I understand the point you're trying to make. Not to mention...I'm sure I'll change my mind 100 times before April.

I'm hoping that Thomas out of Michigan St stays a secret through the combine and draft. I'm not sure if he was invited or not, but I know he will raise some eyebrows once his name gets out there.. he may jump the boards and ruin my mock draft.

[mclark]

Oregon offensive linemen in the NFL. I know Adam Snyder is starting at San Francisco. Enoka Lucas as on the taxi squad at Tampa Bay. Max Unger is currently the Duck's best lineman and will be in the NFL next year. Historically, someone close to home?



Oregon's Zimmerman Elected Into NFL Hall of Fame
Courtesy: GoDucks.com
Release: 02/02/2008


http://www.goducks.com

Former University of Oregon All-American Gary Zimmerman has become the sixth Ducks’ standout elected into the NFL Hall of Fame.



The long-overdue honor caps a long list of accolades for one of the best football players in school history, who completed his collegiate career by receiving the Morris Trophy as the Pacific-10 Conference’s top offensive lineman his senior year. The first-team all-conference and All-Coast choice, who played for the Ducks from 1980-83, earned the rare distinction of receiving league player-of-the-week acclaim following a 1983 win over California.



The 12-year National Football League veteran and seven-time Pro Bowl selection was named to the all-NFL first team on five occasions after breaking into the professional ranks with a two-year stint in the USFL.



The 1997 NFL offensive lineman of the year, who played for the Minnesota Vikings from 1986-92 before finishing with the Denver Broncos from 1993-97, accumulated a string of 169 consecutive professional starting assignments and played a big role in helping Denver win the Super Bowl his final season.



He becomes Oregon’s first NFL Hall-of-Fame inductee since Dave Wilcox was added to the Canton, Ohio shrine in 2000, and joins former Ducks Tuffy Leemans, Norm Van Brocklin, Dan Fouts and Mel Renfro as NFL immortals.



Zimmerman will be inducted with a class that includes former Washington Redskins teammates Darrell Green (cornerback) and Art Monk (wide receiver), New England linebacker Andre Tippett, San Diego/San Francisco defensive end Fred Dean, and Kansas City cornerback Emmitt Thomas.

[mclark]

If we were to trade for Carpenter, I'd hope he'd be able to play in the middle. Any thoughts on that?

[lex]

Well in the end, just watch that Mendenhall video. He has agility that Stewart can only dream of. And its not even close. Mendenhall is easily the more well-rounded of the two.

[CoachChaz]

At 260, he'd almost have to.

[BOSSHOGG30]

At 260, he'd almost have to.

I would hope he would lose weight in Denver and either play over the tightend or play WILL.

[MHCBill]

Yep, can Carpenter play middle or strong side?

His physical attributes say he has the size for strong side.

[mclark]

Boss - that would be a very interesting draft if we can get Corey Williams as that free agent defensive tackle first.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Boss - that would be a very interesting draft if we can get Corey Williams as that free agent defensive tackle first.

yeah, that is key... because we need another starting caliber DT... that is the #1 priority. If we don't get that... my mock draft is shot!

[CoachChaz]

I would hope he would lose weight in Denver and either play over the tightend or play WILL.

I don't know. In his limited playing time, his weight hasn't seemed to deter his abilities

[BOSSHOGG30]

I don't know. In his limited playing time, his weight hasn't seemed to deter his abilities

i just hope Denver trades for him... I mean... Cowboys need a CB, we need a linebacker... both guys are about the same talent.. both are young and have potential. Denver can afford to lose Foxwoth and Dallas can afford to lose Carpenter. It just makes perfect sense to do the trade.

Williams, Webster, Winborn, Carpenter, and a Rookie (hopefully Wheeler)... that would be one hell of an upgrade for our linebacker core. Most if not all these guys are versatile to play any of the linebacker positions... Our defensive coordinator should have fun with this group.

[CoachChaz]

I'd like to see that trade as well. Nabbing a CB via trade would also help Dallas justify their choice of Felix Jones with one of their picks.

[BOSSHOGG30]

The latest rumor out of Dallas is that they aren't willing or going to trade Marcus Spears... but they didn't say anything about Carpenter in that article... so that is a good thing.

[CoachChaz]

The latest rumor out of Dallas is that they aren't willing or going to trade Marcus Spears... but they didn't say anything about Carpenter in that article... so that is a good thing.

I don't blame them for keeping Spears in the 3-4 they run. But the fact this trade makes sense is why it won't happen.

[mclark]

Mine will change 100 times befoe the draft, but here's where I'm at now.

1. Kenny Phillips...When he's playing in perennial Pro-Bowls, we'll see how overrated he is.
2. Pat Sims...Solid DT to help Marcu Thomas and the other youngsters on the line.
4. Jamal Charles...Quick back in the Clinton Portis mold.
4. Wesley Woodyard...the second part of our rebuilt safety tandem
5. Chad Rhinehart...Solid young tackle to push the current incumbents.
5. Jonathan Goff...Solid LB for depth and maybe a starter
7. Paul Hubbard...Young receiver to round out the corps
7. Terrence Wheatley...solid CB for depth

Coach: I'd have Sims on mine too. I'm afraid he might go in the late first round. If he goes, who do you have next for DT? Looks pretty good. Woodyard is a strong safety. Who do you like at free safety. Does Castille from Alabama interest you in the fourth as a free safety? I see most sites are projecting Rhinehart as a guard. Do you think he can play tackle in the NFL?

[mclark]

Yep, can Carpenter play middle or strong side?

His physical attributes say he has the size for strong side.

I'd like to see him in the middle.

[MHCBill]

How about Carpenter - MLB, DJ - WLB, and Wheeler/Winborn - SLB?

Sign Corey Williams as DT and draft one safety.

Defense looks a lot better.

Thanks Boss... you've shown me the light.

Must trade for Carpenter and sign Williams.

[MHCBill]

Changed my sig... probably not the last time.

[lex]

Changed my sig... probably not the last time.

Dont you mean Woodyard?

[MHCBill]

yep... thanks

[shank]

boss, you see us cutting walker and picking up devin thomas in the 5th;

do you think our receiving core will be strong enough? i don't know about thomas, do you see him as a number 2 in his first year? not so sure i like the idea of martinez as our 4th option for another year...

[CoachChaz]

Coach: I'd have Sims on mine too. I'm afraid he might go in the late first round. If he goes, who do you have next for DT? Looks pretty good. Woodyard is a strong safety. Who do you like at free safety. Does Castille from Alabama interest you in the fourth as a free safety? I see most sites are projecting Rhinehart as a guard. Do you think he can play tackle in the NFL?

After Sims, I'd go a different direction on the 2nd and grab the best available in the 4th.

At FS...look at my #1 pick.

I think Rhinehart could play tackle. If he leans more toward being a guard, then I also like Duane Brown

[BOSSHOGG30]

boss, you see us cutting walker and picking up devin thomas in the 5th;

do you think our receiving core will be strong enough? i don't know about thomas, do you see him as a number 2 in his first year? not so sure i like the idea of martinez as our 4th option for another year...

I think he is very under-rated right now and under the radar... Not sure you will see too many "experts" have him ranked... but the smart ones will. I watched the kid a lot this year and he is special. I really like his down field blocking skills. I don't think he will be a #2 his rookie year... He would really have to jump out if that were to happen. I think he will progress at about the same rate if not just a little slower than Marshall. Picking up a vet receiver wouldn't be a bad move for a year or two till Thomas can pick up some experience.

Like I said in one of my post on here... we can't fix every position... I know we wished we could in one year, but it would be very hard to do. My draft focus is to improve the linebacker corps, the DT position next to Thomas and the running game. We can afford to give our young O-line another year to develop and we still have needs at safety and wide receiver. He have to take this one year at a time... we have to play it smart.

I think adding a top runningback and a big time full back really improves our runninggame, our return game, and our red zone play. A guy like Stewart would really take pressure off of Cutler and Marshall as well as give us depth at runningback with all the injuries we have there every year.

Woodyard projects as a very hard hitting safety. He would be a great fit to take over for Lynch as well as give us an insurance policy incase Abdullah doesn't progress to where we need him.

The Carpenter trade as well as the draft pick of Wheeler would really upgrade our linebacker core. Not only would we get bigger, but we get a lot more quality depth as well as special teams weapons.

The main focus of this draft is to fix as many needs as possible.

Stewart fixes not only runningback needs but short yardage needs, special teams needs, and adds another playmaker to grow with Marshall and Cutler.

Jehuu Caulrick is a duel threat fullback... he can run and he can block. he is a monster. Think Greg Jones in Jacksonville. He is also a monster blocker on kick returns. I've seen him as a member of the wedge and to play that position you have to be fearless. His legs are the size of tree trunks... seriously, take a look at the guy if you haven't seen him play.

Andrew Studebaker is a small school kid who played defensive end. But he projects in the NFL as an OLB. He is versatile and athletic and would be able to give us a situational DE/OLB in the 4-3 defense. Never hurts to have versatile players. Did I mention he runs a 4.4 at 255 pounds?

Philip Wheeler is also versatile. He can play all linebacker positions. He is a big man who can move really well. He plays with a mean streak, which is what Denver really needs. Very similar to Al Wilson's. He is also a sure tackler and hard hitter. With Wheeler we can move D.J. wherever we need to to get the best athletes on the field for every situation. Some teams really struggle on defense when they are forced to leave one demensional players on the field, especially against the hurry up offense. This linebacker core wouldn't be effected in this case... I like that.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Devin Thomas in the fifth round would be a steal, when he's probably a top 75 lock.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Devin Thomas in the fifth round would be a steal, when he's probably a top 75 lock.

You think? I haven't seen his name really bounce around much yet... I was hoping he would slide under the radar. You are probably right though... I'm sure NFL scouts know who he is... just because the Draft guru's don't really talk about him doesn't mean much.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

You think? I haven't seen his name really bounce around much yet... I was hoping he would slide under the radar. You are probably right though... I'm sure NFL scouts know who he is... just because the Draft guru's don't really talk about him doesn't mean much.

He's got that one year wonder moniker on him, but all the things you said about him are true. He's a big play guy, and an aggressive down the field blocker. He'd be a great fit here. There's so much talent; I can see him slipping, but not past the fourth round. . . hey, I hope he slips that far - better for us!

[BOSSHOGG30]

Caulrick or Woodyard could slip to the 5th round, so maybe if Thomas slips to the 4th round we could jump on him there and pick up either Woodyard or Caulrick in the 5th instead.

I have a feeling that Thomas will be a late 2nd or 3rd rounder though... I'm hoping he runs a bad 40 at the combine. He is probably a 4.5 guy so maybe some of those guys who run 4.4 will pass him by on the draft charts.

Maybe we will get lucky and someone will actually give us a high draft pick for for Walker, Foxworth, Henry, or Gold. If we can some how get another 3rd rounder we would be set.

[topscribe]

They get Walker for a 2nd, send him off for a 3rd.

What a deal. :coffee:

-----

[mclark]

After Sims, I'd go a different direction on the 2nd and grab the best available in the 4th.

At FS...look at my #1 pick.

I think Rhinehart could play tackle. If he leans more toward being a guard, then I also like Duane Brown

I guess I did miss your #1 pick. Wonder what I was thinking about? Of course, we'd have a free safety and a strong safety, both of which we can definitely use.

[mclark]

Devin Thomas looks like a third rounder to me. Maybe he'll slip. More likely fourth rounders:

Mario Urruttia, Louisville;

Marcus Monk, Arkansas -- he may fall off the board entirely if he has a slow 40 at the Combine. If he does, I'd sign him as a free agent.

Keenan Burton, Kentucky;

Lance Leggett, Miami (Fl);

Andre Caldwell, Florida;

Darius Reynaud, West Virginia;

Davone Bess, Hawaii.

[MOtorboat]

Devin Thomas looks like a third rounder to me. Maybe he'll slip. More likely fourth rounders:

Mario Urruttia, Louisville;

Marcus Monk, Arkansas -- he may fall off the board entirely if he has a slow 40 at the Combine. If he does, I'd sign him as a free agent.

Keenan Burton, Kentucky;

Lance Leggett, Miami (Fl);

Andre Caldwell, Florida;

Darius Reynaud, West Virginia;

Davone Bess, Hawaii.

Cue: Boss.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Cue: Boss.

I'm glad you know me Mo... cause I was about to say... if we draft either one of those guys I will flip my lid. If we must pick one of those guys though it better be Caldwell... we already saw how good Bess was in the Georgia game when he actually had to play a talented team.

[BOSSHOGG30]

One bad note: Receiver is typically a deep position in drafts, but Thomas' ability to return kicks should enhance his stock, making him a projected third-round selection.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

They get Walker for a 2nd, send him off for a 3rd.

What a deal. :coffee:

-----

What are you saying?

[lex]

Not a big fan of Caulcrick. Im not so sure he can play fullback. I think he's really a slow running back. We've already been through this with Cecil Sapp. Id rather have clear division of labor.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

1st: RB, Jonathon Stewart, Oregon
Best talent at 12 by far...gives us another playmaker to help Cutler and Marshall.

2nd: OLB, Philip Wheeler, Georgia Tech
Excellent player and value in the 2nd round. Can play MLB or OLB. Gives us the option to move D.J. to WILL.

4th: S, Wesley Woodyard, Kentucky
G really likes this guy and believes he can be a play maker at safety. He is starting to grow on me too. We need a safety and I will go with Gmoney on this pick.

4th: FB, Jehuu Caulrick, Michigan St.
We need a true fullback. Caulrick is huge and powerful and can open holes. This guy will not only help in short yardage situations, but he will protect Stewart and allow him to hit the next level with ease.

5th: WR, Devin Thomas, Michigan St.
Very under-rated... He will be an absolute steal for whoever takes him in the draft... Good size, speed, and very good hands. He will make a good #2 next to Marshall. A lot of you may not of heard of him, but I'm telling you this guy is good!

5th: OLB/DE, Andrew Studebaker, Wheaton
Guy comes from small school, many of you won't like that, but his stats are off the chart and he is a big guy who has been clocked in the 4.4 range. He is a great project for a 5th round pick and can help the team in many areas. Plays with rage too, which I like. Reminds me of Bill Romo.

7th: OT, Derek Uperesa, St Francis (PA.)
Another project, but I like his upside and I think he will give Denver an instant backup and may project into a starter after a couple years. Denver likes to mold their offensive lineman and I think this guy fits the bill.

7th: P, Mike Dragosavich , North Dakota St.
This guy has one hell of a leg and one of the few directional punters in the draft. Denver needs a punter and someone who doesn't just rely on a big leg, but can kick out of bounce and keep the ball away from players like Hester

Woodyard is a LB...I don't wanna hafta transition a guy.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Wesley Woodyard...projected as 7th rounder/undrafted FA
Height: 6-1 | Weight: 212 | 40-Time: 4.50
Strengths:
Extremely productive...Very athletic...Excellent timed speed...Terrific range...Quick with a burst...Smart with good awareness and instincts...Decent tackler who hits surprisingly hard...Has fluid hips and does a nice job in coverage....A hard worker.

Weaknesses:
Exceptionally undersized and needs to put on a lot of weight...Has trouble taking on and shedding blockers...Struggles to fight through traffic...He's not stout at the point and can be run at...Has to get stronger...Is not an ideal fit for every scheme.

Notes:
Name is pronounced “WOOD-yard”...A cousin, Ashante Woodyard, played football at Purdue...There's a lot to like about this guy but his lack of size is a monumental negative...Could make it in the right situation (Tampa Bay, Indy, etc.) but he might never be more than a backup and special teamer...Classic case of a terrific college player who simply doesn't project well to the NFL due to some physical limitations

[SmilinAssasSin27]

At DT, I actually like Marcus Harrison over Sims. He is some off the field issues but something about him intrigues me...GREAT vs the run. I would be cool w/ Sims too though.

Value wise though...gimme Dre Moore in round 4. I want KP in round 1 and a LB in round 2. If Moore is there, I'd much rather have him at 4 and LB at 2 then Harriosn/Sims at 2 and a LB leftover at 4.

[mclark]

At DT, I actually like Marcus Harrison over Sims. He is some off the field issues but something about him intrigues me...GREAT vs the run. I would be cool w/ Sims too though.

Value wise though...gimme Dre Moore in round 4. I want KP in round 1 and a LB in round 2. If Moore is there, I'd much rather have him at 4 and LB at 2 then Harriosn/Sims at 2 and a LB leftover at 4.

I see Dre Moore as a round 2 pick.

What I'm told about Woodyard is that he was a safety moved to LB because it was a team need and that he is quick enough to play strong safety. We'll see what's true. Woodyard looks like a mid-round 4th/5th pick.

He's a lot like Derrick Doggett a LB from Oregon State who was one of the best defensive players in the Pac 10 but is only 212 pounds; so he also needs to prove he can play safety. Both of those guys will be interesting to watch at the Combine.

[Npba900]

I LOOOOVE Stewart...have ever since he was deciding between Tennessee and Oregon. HOWEVER, I'm gonna have to pass on a round 1 RB given the other holes. Now if we somehow managed to sign (or trade for) a FA S AND a LB I believe we could take Stewart at 12 and make a package to get back into round 1 and take Balmer. It wouldn't take too much to do that and we could still land a solid LB in the middle of the draft.

A scenario where we SIGN Hamlin/Gibril Wilson, TRADE FOR Bobby Carpenter, DRAFT Jon Stewart and Balmer AND are still able to sign a mid round LB like Ezra Butler would please me immensely.

Remember folks, we aren't 1 draft away from SB contention. So don't get too pissy if we don't address a need. We can always try to upgrade that spot in 2009.

Denver has got to try and get Stewart with their 1st pick, followed by drafting Cox or Caulcrick!! Imagine having one of the behemoth FB's with the size and power of Caulrick or Cox lead blocking for Stewart and our O-Line opening up seams with their zone blocking.

The strength and power running of Stewart as well as the lead blocking of Caulcrick or Cox, will solve our weak running game in the RED ZONE as well as keeping drives going b/c now Denver can convert short yardage to keep the chains moving, and take the pressure off Cutler!!!!

Come on Denver Forum fans, surely you guys can invision the combination of Stewart in tandem with Caulcrick or Cox.

Speaking of holes on the D-line, if Denver can sign the DT from Green Bay, the Broncos automatically fill a glaring hole with a proven young 26 year old veteran to team with young 24 year old Marcus Thomas.

Key here is to draft Stewart with our first pick and then select Caulcrick or Cox on the 2nd day btween the 4th and 6th rounds. This leaves the 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th to address the Broncos other needs.

I don't believe drafting Stewart with our #1 pick takes Denver to the SB immediately, but the acquistions of Stewart and Cox or Caulcrick builds the foundation for a SB Run in two years.

Lastly, with the exception of Portis, Denver has not had an All-Pro RB since the TD seasons of 96, 97, and 98!!! Denver and Cutler needs another All-Pro RB to return to the SB and Cutler needs an All Pro RB to elevate his play, give him another weapon. This is how important it is to get an TD type All Pro RB and an powerful lead blocking FB like we had in Griffin by selecting a Caulcrick or Cox.

[tubby]

Denver has got to try and get Stewart with their 1st pick, followed by drafting Cox or Caulcrick!! Imagine having one of the behemoth FB's with the size and power of Caulrick or Cox lead blocking for Stewart and our O-Line opening up seams with their zone blocking.

The strength and power running of Stewart as well as the lead blocking of Caulcrick or Cox, will solve our weak running game in the RED ZONE as well as keeping drives going b/c now Denver can convert short yardage to keep the chains moving, and take the pressure off Cutler!!!!

Come on Denver Forum fans, surely you guys can invision the combination of Stewart in tandem with Caulcrick or Cox.

Speaking of holes on the D-line, if Denver can sign the DT from Green Bay, the Broncos automatically fill a glaring hole with a proven young 26 year old veteran to team with young 24 year old Marcus Thomas.

Key here is to draft Stewart with our first pick and then select Caulcrick or Cox on the 2nd day btween the 4th and 6th rounds. This leaves the 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th to address the Broncos other needs.

I don't believe drafting Stewart with our #1 pick takes Denver to the SB immediately, but the acquistions of Stewart and Cox or Caulcrick builds the foundation for a SB Run in two years.

Lastly, with the exception of Portis, Denver has not had an All-Pro RB since the TD seasons of 96, 97, and 98!!! Denver and Cutler needs another All-Pro RB to return to the SB and Cutler needs an All Pro RB to elevate his play, give him another weapon. This is how important it is to get an TD type All Pro RB and an powerful lead blocking FB like we had in Griffin by selecting a Caulcrick or Cox.

I'm with you. But, worst case, that leaves us with a 2nd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 7th, and 7th to address other needs. :D

[BOSSHOGG30]

you guys are finally catching on... I'm so proud of you all... Now we can all be disappointed when Denver does the complete opposite of what we all want, but at least we will all be upset together.

[Simple Jaded]

you guys are finally catching on... I'm so proud of you all... Now we can all be disappointed when Denver does the complete opposite of what we all want, but at least we will all be upset together.


They almost always do!

But I'm with ya on Stewart, I'd much rather see a LT drafted (Not very likely) but RB is a need and it'd be nice to finally see an end to the ridiculous Parade of Average Backs......

[topscribe]

you guys are finally catching on... I'm so proud of you all... Now we can all be disappointed when Denver does the complete opposite of what we all want, but at least we will all be upset together.

Well, if you are still talking about a running back, I haven't caught on. Not at
all. It is ludicrous to can the back that was the #1 back in the league before
he went down, then spend the #1 draft pick on an untried, unproven back, at
the expense of the defensive line. Or safety. Or tackle.

That just makes no sense at all. :confused:

-----

[lex]

Well, if you are still talking about a running back, I haven't caught on. Not at
all. It is ludicrous to can the back that was the #1 back in the league before
he went down, then spend the #1 draft pick on an untried, unproven back, at
the expense of the defensive line. Or safety. Or tackle.

That just makes no sense at all. :confused:

-----

You keep bringing that up as if its important. That was, what, 25% of the season? The flip side of your argument in is that he was only healthy for 75% of the season. And 2 of those games were against teams who are drafting before us. Are you aware that Henry is one failed drug test away from being banned for the season? Are you aware that Henry is almost 30? Whats dumb is to pin our hopes on Henry. He had a chance and he didnt pull through. And with the various problems that he has, its better to move on.

[topscribe]

You keep bringing that up as if its important. That was, what, 25% of the season? The flip side of your argument in is that he was only healthy for 75% of the season. And 2 of those games were against teams who are drafting before us. Are you aware that Henry is one failed drug test away from being banned for the season? Are you aware that Henry is almost 30? Whats dumb is to pin our hopes on Henry. He had a chance and he didnt pull through. And with the various problems that he has, its better to move on.

You bet. Draft a back. Then maybe we can add a couple cornerbacks. Perhaps
a kicker is available. How about a quarterback?

Anybody but defensive tackle. It's so much fun watching opposing backs
carve through the Broncos' defense game after game.

Nope, let's get an untried, unproven back.

Henry has more than five games. He has three other years of proven
production behind him.

But isn't it a lot more fun to be foolish? Yes, let's do it! Let's draft a back!

-----

[lex]

You bet. Draft a back. Then maybe we can add a couple cornerbacks. Perhaps
a kicker is available. How about a quarterback?

Anybody but defensive tackle. It's so much fun watching opposing backs
carve through the Broncos' defense game after game.

Nope, let's get an untried, unproven back.

Henry has more than five games. He has three other years of proven
production behind him.

But isn't it a lot more fun to be foolish? Yes, let's do it! Let's draft a back!

-----

All youve done here is repeat what youve previously said. You think we have other needs. Yes, we know you feel that way. We got it. Youve completely ignored the fact that Henry has baggage and that we're at risk because of it. Besides, has anyone said to not draft a defensive tackle? What youre failing to realize is that he is looking at what makes sense in terms of value given where the pick is. And at #12, unless Ellis or Dorsey are there, taking a tackle just to take a tackle is a bad idea. And he's right. The gap between the next guy after Ellis and Dorsey has a high bust risk and isnt really THAT much better than some of the other guys slotted to go in the 2nd and 3rd. Again, he's looking at maximizing value. He's also recognizing running back as a position of high impact for us.

[topscribe]

All youve done here is repeat what youve previously said. You think we have other needs. Yes, we know you feel that way. We got it. Youve completely ignored the fact that Henry has baggage and that we're at risk because of it. Besides, has anyone said to not draft a defensive tackle? What youre failing to realize is that he is looking at what makes sense in terms of value given where the pick is. And at #12, unless Ellis or Dorsey are there, taking a tackle just to take a tackle is a bad idea. And he's right. The gap between the next guy after Ellis and Dorsey has a high bust risk and isnt really THAT much better than some of the other guys slotted to go in the 2nd and 3rd. Again, he's looking at maximizing value. He's also recognizing running back as a position of high impact for us.

Impact is achieved in the trenches. I have a half-century of watching teams
with superstar runners going nowhere. I suffered for several years of it right
in Denver (Floyd Little).

If #12 is that shaky, then perhaps the team needs to trade down or up.
But to get back into the postseason, the Broncos are going to need a
better defensive line.

As the song goes, there, I've said it again . . .

-----

[lex]

Impact is achieved in the trenches. I have a half-century of watching teams
with superstar runners going nowhere. I suffered for several years of it right
in Denver (Floyd Little).
OK, first of all, in Shanahans last presser of the year he seemed intent on giving Harris a shot at left tackle and some people are thinking within that framework. And #12 is a little hight to take a RT. As far as DTs are concerned, the player who is generally considered to be the 3rd best DT is Kentwan Balmer who has had 1 good season so theres a legitimate concern that he has a high bust factor. Besides, some may believe that he's not even really THAT much better than the DTs that are slotted to go in the 2nd and 3rd. People also have concerns about Connor and Rivers and when they look at the guys who are slotted to go in the 2nd or 3rd, they dont see a massive drop off there either. So in the process of scrutinizing the quality of the players, bust factors and position, you eventually see that RB makes sense. People see Mendenhall or Stewart as a quality player with the highest level of assurance that they will be a success. Its not just, "hey we need a defensive tackle, lets take the next best defensive tackle." You have to look at where value exists for the various positions.



If #12 is that shaky, then perhaps the team needs to trade down or up.
But to get back into the postseason, the Broncos are going to need a
better defensive line.

As the song goes, there, I've said it again . . .

In all your diatribe thats the only thing youve said that might be considered a quality rebuttal. Trading down is a valid approach but to just jump up and down about our needs without the scrutiny Ive discussed is not. Everyone youre attempting to lecture already knows that DL and OL is important. But it comes down to where the value is.

[WARHORSE]

The scrutiny you've discussed. Oh, I see. :heh: Nothing like having such a
wise sage as you to tell me that what I say isn't quality. Yessir, it's such
a relief to hear from someone besides those stupid professors and the like.

Well, here's my little offering: The Broncos ought to do everything they
can to bolster the defensive line. Until then, to hell with running backs.

As the song goes, there I've said it again . . .

Hang in there. Why, with all your wisdom, you'll get the Broncos to see it
your way yet. :flypig:

That's thirty, good night.

-----


Yes. We all know we need defensive line help, more accurately DTs. But the only guys I see taken at 12 by us are Ellis, Long or Dorsey on the Dline. So if we have to select at 12 with those three gone already, should we choose a DT because its a need? Id rather take the best football player available to us, and if its close, then go defense. Once again, I must say Id rather take a stud like Mendenhall or Stewart than draft a bench warmer, even if it is for a year. Use the later round fellas for that.

[topscribe]

Yes. We all know we need defensive line help, more accurately DTs. But the only guys I see taken at 12 by us are Ellis, Long or Dorsey on the Dline. So if we have to select at 12 with those three gone already, should we choose a DT because its a need? Id rather take the best football player available to us, and if its close, then go defense. Once again, I must say Id rather take a stud like Mendenhall or Stewart than draft a bench warmer, even if it is for a year. Use the later round fellas for that.

Well, if the Broncos are stuck at 12 and no DTs are available that would
justify that pick, then of course do something else. But then, how about OT,
or safety . . . an area of true need? Would one of them be available that
would justify a #12?

But I would think if something such as that were pending (and they are
pretty good at predicting that) and none of them are available of that
quality, then perhaps they ought to do everything they can to get out of
there and trade either up or down so they can address needs.

That's just my take. Is that as stupid as some people might think?

-----

[BOSSHOGG30]

Well, if the Broncos are stuck at 12 and no DTs are available that would
justify that pick, then of course do something else. But then, how about OT,
or safety . . . an area of true need? Would one of them be available that
would justify a #12?

But I would think if something such as that were pending (and they are
pretty good at predicting that) and none of them are available of that
quality, then perhaps they ought to do everything they can to get out of
there and trade either up or down so they can address needs.

That's just my take. Is that as stupid as some people might think?

-----

Top I think we all know what the Denver's real needs are... We need OL, DL, LB, and S. Problem with being at 12 is that after Ellis, Dorsey, Jake Long, and Chris Long are off the boards the question the becomes is the guy who we take really worth a #12 overall pick. This pick is going to cost us some money. You have to look at the talent available at 12 and ask yourself if you don't mind paying this guy a huge contract. Everyones opinion will differ, but mine states that I don't believe there is a guy that will be there at 12 that fills one of our major needs and is worth the money. We would be better off trading back or if we must select at 12 take a guy worth the loot. This is why I think we would be better off selecting Jonathan Stewart with the 12th pick. He may be the best and most complete back in the entire draft. He would help us immediately as well as give us a even brighter future on offense. He is a very good kick returner and short yardage back. Many people compare him to Shaun Alexander or Steven Jackson.

If you look at the other prospects available at 12, Ryan Clady? Kenny Philips? Reggie Smith? Balmer? Connor? Rivers? and so on.... sure these guys are good, but none of them really stick out.... Many questions surround each athlete. You would really be taking a chance with any of these guys. I'm sure more than one of those guys will be very good players, but there are just to many questions. If it wasn't a weak draft for these positions, most of these guys would be 2nd rounders.

Denver needs more play makers. Marshall and Culter is all we have on offense. Selvin Young has the potential, but you even heard it from Shanny's mouth.... Young doesn't look like an everydown back... he just can't handle the pounding. Henry? He hasn't can't make it through one season without being all banged up. He does good every year and then due to injuries his play reclines. You need a back who gets stronger during the season...not worse.

[topscribe]

Top I think we all know what the Denver's real needs are... We need OL, DL, LB, and S. Problem with being at 12 is that after Ellis, Dorsey, Jake Long, and Chris Long are off the boards the question the becomes is the guy who we take really worth a #12 overall pick. This pick is going to cost us some money. You have to look at the talent available at 12 and ask yourself if you don't mind paying this guy a huge contract. Everyones opinion will differ, but mine states that I don't believe there is a guy that will be there at 12 that fills one of our major needs and is worth the money. We would be better off trading back or if we must select at 12 take a guy worth the loot. This is why I think we would be better off selecting Jonathan Stewart with the 12th pick. He may be the best and most complete back in the entire draft. He would help us immediately as well as give us a even brighter future on offense. He is a very good kick returner and short yardage back. Many people compare him to Shaun Alexander or Steven Jackson.

If you look at the other prospects available at 12, Ryan Clady? Kenny Philips? Reggie Smith? Balmer? Connor? Rivers? and so on.... sure these guys are good, but none of them really stick out.... Many questions surround each athlete. You would really be taking a chance with any of these guys. I'm sure more than one of those guys will be very good players, but there are just to many questions. If it wasn't a weak draft for these positions, most of these guys would be 2nd rounders.

Denver needs more play makers. Marshall and Culter is all we have on offense. Selvin Young has the potential, but you even heard it from Shanny's mouth.... Young doesn't look like an everydown back... he just can't handle the pounding. Henry? He hasn't can't make it through one season without being all banged up. He does good every year and then due to injuries his play reclines. You need a back who gets stronger during the season...not worse.

Denver needs to get stronger in the trenches. First. For the past 50 years,
I have observed spectacular playmakers on mediocre teams who remained
medicocre because they did not have lines to complement them.

No need to discuss who might not be there at #12. I already said that, if
that is the case, every effort should be made to trade up or down. If they
are just stuck there, and the no one in an area of need, who would justify
that pick, is available, then, yes, the best player available, period. There,
I've said it again.

Nonetheless, Henry has made it through several seasons without injury. Go
to NFL.com and take a look. And when he did, he was an impact player.

And all Denver has is Cutler and Marshall? What about Stokley? Scheffler?
Walker is a spectacular playmaker. And, yes, Young can score from
anywhere on the field, so there is another one for at least 15-20 plays a
game, according to Shanny. (Young said he is going to bulk up a bit over
the offseason, so we'll see how that goes.)

It's the Acres of Diamonds principle: First, hang on to what you have. The
Broncos have worked damned hard to bring in the players they have. So
they want to can them now, and just start over with unproven rookies?

It just doesn't make sense to me. :confused:

-----

[BOSSHOGG30]

Denver needs to get stronger in the trenches. First. For the past 50 years,
I have observed spectacular playmakers on mediocre teams who remained
medicocre because they did not have lines to compement them.

No need to discuss who might not be there at #12. I already said that, if
that is the case, every effort should be made to traide up or down.

And Henry has made it through several seasons without injury. Go to NFL.com
and take a look.

And all Denver has is Cutler and Marshall? What about Stokley? Scheffler?
Walker is a spectacular playmaker. And, yes, Young can score from
anywhere on the field, so there is another one for 15-20 plays a game,
according to Shanny. (Young said he is going to bulk up a bit over the
offseason, so we'll see how that goes.)

It's the Acres of Diamonds principle: First, hang on to what you have. The
Broncos have worked damned hard to bring in the players they have. So
they want to can them now, and just start over with unproven rookies?

It just doesn't make sense to me. :confused:

-----

top... please... Henry has played 7 NFL seasons.. Of those 7 NFL Seasons... he has only one 16 game season. He barely averages over 4 yards per carry for his entire career. He only has two 10 + TD seasons. He only has two season where he has been able to carry the ball over 300 carries. He averages less than 1,000 yards in his career.

2001: 13 games
2002: 16
2003: 15
2004: 10
2005: 9
2006: 14
2007: 12

His games are going down as his career moves on... he body is wearing down even faster!

[topscribe]

top... please... Henry has played 7 NFL seasons.. Of those 7 NFL Seasons... he has only one 16 game season. He barely averages over 4 yards per carry for his entire career. He only has two 10 + TD seasons. He only has two season where he has been able to carry the ball over 300 carries. He averages less than 1,000 yards in his career.

2001: 13 games
2002: 16
2003: 15
2004: 10
2005: 9
2006: 14
2007: 12

His games are going down as his career moves on... he body is wearing down even faster!

"Top please."

Sounds as if you just want me out of the conversation.

So I'm out.

-----

[BOSSHOGG30]

Really impressive resume..... I think we should keep him and rely on him to get our teams to the playoffs

Travis Henry:
Average yards per game

2007
Week 1 -8 : 69
Week 9-17: 18

2006
Weeks 1-8: 52
Weeks 9-17: 103

2005
Weeks 1-8: 12
Weeks 9-17: 29.5

2004
Weeks 1-8: 38
Weeks 9-17: 3

[BOSSHOGG30]

"Top please."

Sounds as if you just want me out of the conversation.

So I'm out.

-----

Or I'm trying to have a conversation with you, don't be a woman, come on man..... I'm just showing you the facts...I back them up to... look at the stats. Please just take the orange tinted glasses off and open your eyes. Henry is not the answer. You are the one that said to take a look at Henry that he has been able to stay healthy.... which is totally wrong. He is a good back, but his running style doesn't work well in the NFL for an entire 16 game schedule plus the playoffs on top of that. He is at that 30 year old mark too, which is when a lot of backs, regardless of running style start going down hill.

[topscribe]

Or I'm trying to have a conversation with you, don't be a woman, come on man..... I'm just showing you the facts...I back them up to... look at the stats. Please just take the orange tinted glasses off and open your eyes. Henry is not the answer. You are the one that said to take a look at Henry that he has been able to stay healthy.... which is totally wrong. He is a good back, but his running style doesn't work well in the NFL for an entire 16 game schedule plus the playoffs on top of that. He is at that 30 year old mark too, which is when a lot of backs, regardless of running style start going down hill.

You're loaded with sarcasm and personal innuendo today, aren't you?

If you have facts and I am wrong, show me. But leave me out of the subject.

Boss . . . please . . .

-----

[aberdien]

I would love to have him.

[lex]

You're loaded with sarcasm and personal innuendo today, aren't you?

If you have facts and I am wrong, show me. But leave me out of the subject.

Boss . . . please . . .

-----


Its kind of ironic to see you say that. But more to the point, in addition to what Boss has already pointed out to you, consider what youve said about Henry being a playmaker and try reconciling that with the fact that both teams he has played for have taken RBs with high picks even with Henry on the roster. Face it, Henry's only significant season was in a contract year that was the year prior to us signing him and that really the only thing of significance you have to point to in terms of his past production. But again, that was in a contract year and he is approaching 30. And you keep neglecting to consider his status as one who has failed drug tests.

[BOSSHOGG30]

You're loaded with sarcasm and personal innuendo today, aren't you?

If you have facts and I am wrong, show me. But leave me out of the subject.

Boss . . . please . . .

-----

:confused: read the post, those are the facts... those are Travis Henry's real stats... you can do the research yourself if you must. I used ESPN.com as my source.

[topscribe]

Its kind of ironic to see you say that. But more to the point, in addition to what Boss has already pointed out to you, consider what youve said about Henry being a playmaker and try reconciling that with the fact that both teams he has played for have taken RBs with high picks even with Henry on the roster. Face it, Henry's only significant season was in a contract year that was the year prior to us signing him and that really the only thing of significance you have to point to in terms of his past production. But again, that was in a contract year and he is approaching 30. And you keep neglecting to consider his status as one who has failed drug tests.

Henry has not failed a drug test as a Bronco. That's all I care about.

But the Broncos got him because they saw something in him. So I guess that
makes the Broncos and me idiots.

Carry on . . .

-----

[BOSSHOGG30]

Henry has not failed a drug test as a Bronco. That's all I care about.

But the Broncos got him because they saw something in him. So I guess that
makes the Broncos and me idiots.

Carry on . . .

-----

He did fail a drug test as a Bronco... he got off on a technicality.

[lex]

Henry has not failed a drug test as a Bronco. That's all I care about.

But the Broncos got him because they saw something in him. So I guess that
makes the Broncos and me idiots.

Carry on . . .

-----

If he fails another drug test while with the Broncos, the Broncos lose him for a season. Thats what I care about. I dont fault the Broncos for taking a chance on him but at the same time there comes a point when you have to turn the page once the signs are there.

[topscribe]

He did fail a drug test as a Bronco... he got off on a technicality.

Yes, I know the story, of course. There was a lot involved in that case. I am
satisfied that the scare will do it for Henry. I think it put a jolt of reality into
him, and he admitted as much.

But there was a whole lot more to my argument than just Henry. So, hopefully,
we have this out of the way. Anything further would resemble a pissing
contest, wouldn't it?

However, I will say that you made some good points. Admittedly, it is a
"wait and see" proposition at RB. I'm still not sure we should just throw
what we have over our shoulders and go after a rookie. I am still more
concerned about the trenches than I am the skill positions. Even Champ,
in an interview, said we are all right there, that he would like to see
"more consistency" on the line.

-----

[BOSSHOGG30]

If he fails another drug test while with the Broncos, the Broncos lose him for a season. Thats what I care about. I dont fault the Broncos for taking a chance on him but at the same time there comes a point when you have to turn the page once the signs are there.

I have to be honest when I say that I do blame the Broncos organization for taking a chance on him....it was bad news from the start. He failed that drug test... he got lucky that he was able to get off on a technicality and plus he hurt the image of the Broncos with the whole 7 kids with 7 different wives thing. He has a history of injury problems, fumbling problems, and he is over-rated as far as I'm concerned. I didn't like the move at all and now we have big money invested in him that doesn't look like it will pay off. We would be lucky to even get a 6th or 7th round draft pick for him and that is horrible considering his is a runningback.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I think the big issue here Top is your overly optimistic view on a roster that has gone 16-16 the past two years and 7-9 this past year respectively; you make it sound as if we don't have any flaws. You keep talking about players like Young and Stokley, who coach Shanahan said were never full time guys and need to be in limited roles; and talk about problem child and injury prone big contracts like Walker and Henry who probably won't even be on the team this next year. Then again, the way you're approaching some of these draft guys is almost insulting.

Acres of Diamonds principle? You don't understand? What do you mean you don't understand? Javon Walker doesn't want to play here anymore and the Broncos don't want to pay him his bonus because due to his injury history and poor attitude. Travis Henry avoided suspension on a technicality, and hurt his MCL this year. Well, Ian Gold (who we are also shopping) is just a turd and always has been. Sort of like Gerard Warren. If Denver gets rid of any of these three (which they will) they need starters to replace them; so it's perfectly understandable for anyone to be advocating the use of a first round pick on areas that aren't OT or DT.

For example; a running back this year like Jonathan Stewart is going to do a hell of a lot more for the team as a starter than the #3 defensive tackle in the draft would do for this team. Kentwan Balmer in the top fifteen is an absolute mistake. Like these other guys have been talking about; it's about value. Everyone that's posting right now form WARHORSE, Lex to BOSS realized that the trenches need to be upgraded; however - who says we can't have the best of both worlds?

I think you're missing the big picture here. Denver would rather cut loose the trash they have on the team right now; take the cap hit now and have the ability to re-sign the young, solid group of core players they have right now. (Tony, Brandon, Elvis, etc.)

In an ideal world, Denver would trade down some spots - be in line for an impact player and get some more picks to help an ailing roster. Nobody here is saying ignore the defensive and offensive lines.

History shows that (A) defensive tackle is one of the hardest positions to translate your pro game to the NFL level and outside Dorsey and Ellis; there isn't an impact guy who is going to be able to help this team win games next year (B) Even if Denver drafted a tackle high; what's the chance he'll actually contribute next year? I'm all for an offensive tackle and told people over 3 months ago that the Broncos loved Clady and Baker; and I maintain to this day that's quality information. However the draft is about value, and if a guy like Stewart or Mendenhall is there; both at the ripe age of 20/21; who have years of longevity and the likelihood of success in front of them - pairing them with Jay Cutler is the best thing the team could realistically do. Whose to say that we can't get someone like Sam Baker at #42 and bolster the offensive line? Maybe a Pat Sims is there at #42 and we pair him with Marcus Thomas?

I think you're not understanding the value and how the draft actually works.

Talking about drafting a running back is not an asinine conversation. It's probably close to reality. Selvin Young having off-season surgery and coach Shanahan stating that well; he's not a full-time guy - and the fact that Henry's decision is very much up in the air and might not be back is more than a justifiable reason to have this conversation. If March 1st rolls around and Henry is still on his roster (whether he restructured, cried with his children in front of Mike and begged for mercy, etc.) then this talk was much ado about nothing.

People here are talking about things which they think can help this team improve for the future. That's perfectly okay. Nobody here is saying ignore OT, DT and S. I think we all want to see youth come in at all these positions. Problem is, we're lacking some picks - so what to do? People are giving their thoughts and weighing their options; that's awesome. I think these posters tend to see things in the real light and not in orange and blue shades.

[topscribe]

I think the big issue here Top is your overly optimistic view on a roster that has gone 16-16 the past two years and 7-9 this past year respectively; you make it sound as if we don't have any flaws. You keep talking about players like Young and Stokley, who coach Shanahan said were never full time guys and need to be in limited roles; and talk about problem child and injury prone big contracts like Walker and Henry who probably won't even be on the team this next year. Then again, the way you're approaching some of these draft guys is almost insulting.

Acres of Diamonds principle? You don't understand? What do you mean you don't understand? Javon Walker doesn't want to play here anymore and the Broncos don't want to pay him his bonus because due to his injury history and poor attitude. Travis Henry avoided suspension on a technicality, and hurt his MCL this year. Well, Ian Gold (who we are also shopping) is just a turd and always has been. Sort of like Gerard Warren. If Denver gets rid of any of these three (which they will) they need starters to replace them; so it's perfectly understandable for anyone to be advocating the use of a first round pick on areas that aren't OT or DT.

For example; a running back this year like Jonathan Stewart is going to do a hell of a lot more for the team as a starter than the #3 defensive tackle in the draft would do for this team. Kentwan Balmer in the top fifteen is an absolute mistake. Like these other guys have been talking about; it's about value. Everyone that's posting right now form WARHORSE, Lex to BOSS realized that the trenches need to be upgraded; however - who says we can't have the best of both worlds?

I think you're missing the big picture here. Denver would rather cut loose the trash they have on the team right now; take the cap hit now and have the ability to re-sign the young, solid group of core players they have right now. (Tony, Brandon, Elvis, etc.)

In an ideal world, Denver would trade down some spots - be in line for an impact player and get some more picks to help an ailing roster. Nobody here is saying ignore the defensive and offensive lines.

History shows that (A) defensive tackle is one of the hardest positions to translate your pro game to the NFL level and outside Dorsey and Ellis; there isn't an impact guy who is going to be able to help this team win games next year (B) Even if Denver drafted a tackle high; what's the chance he'll actually contribute next year? I'm all for an offensive tackle and told people over 3 months ago that the Broncos loved Clady and Baker; and I maintain to this day that's quality information. However the draft is about value, and if a guy like Stewart or Mendenhall is there; both at the ripe age of 20/21; who have years of longevity and the likelihood of success in front of them - pairing them with Jay Cutler is the best thing the team could realistically do. Whose to say that we can't get someone like Sam Baker at #42 and bolster the offensive line? Maybe a Pat Sims is there at #42 and we pair him with Marcus Thomas?

I think you're not understanding the value and how the draft actually works.

Talking about drafting a running back is not an asinine conversation. It's probably close to reality. Selvin Young having off-season surgery and coach Shanahan stating that well; he's not a full-time guy - and the fact that Henry's decision is very much up in the air and might not be back is more than a justifiable reason to have this conversation. If March 1st rolls around and Henry is still on his roster (whether he restructured, cried with his children in front of Mike and begged for mercy, etc.) then this talk was much ado about nothing.

People here are talking about things which they think can help this team improve for the future. That's perfectly okay. Nobody here is saying ignore OT, DT and S. I think we all want to see youth come in at all these positions. Problem is, we're lacking some picks - so what to do? People are giving their thoughts and weighing their options; that's awesome. I think these posters tend to see things in the real light and not in orange and blue shades.

Go back and really read my posts, then come back and comment.

You are putting words in my mouth that I did not utter.

-----

[BOSSHOGG30]

I think just about everyone will tell you this is one of the best running back drafts in a long time.... With that said...if you have have one of the top 1 or 2 rated runningbacks in a draft considered one of the best ever...then what does that say about the talent we could pick up at 12!

Just thinking about Stewart or Mendenhall with Marshall, Scheffler, and Cutler as well as the very young and talented O-line we have...our offense is looking really promising.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Go back and really read my posts, then come back and comment.

You are putting words in my mouth that I did not utter.

-----

No Top, I'm not putting words in your mouth. This is just your way of not trying to debate something you more or less can't.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I think just about everyone will tell you this is one of the best running back drafts in a long time.... With that said...if you have have one of the top 1 or 2 rated runningbacks in a draft considered one of the best ever...then what does that say about the talent we could pick up at 12!

Just thinking about Stewart or Mendenhall with Marshall, Scheffler, and Cutler as well as the very young and talented O-line we have...our offense is looking really promising.

Amen. I don't know what you think about Sam Baker; but Hell he could even be there at #42; that could address our OT woes. . .

Then again, we could wait and get a talented back at that position too; but why settle for a Mustang (Jamaal Charles, etc.) when you can get that hot new Corvette in town in Mr. Stewart.

Keep preachin' man, sooner or later some people will "get it."

[BeefStew25]

I think just about everyone will tell you this is one of the best running back drafts in a long time.... With that said...if you have have one of the top 1 or 2 rated runningbacks in a draft considered one of the best ever...then what does that say about the talent we could pick up at 12!

Just thinking about Stewart or Mendenhall with Marshall, Scheffler, and Cutler as well as the very young and talented O-line we have...our offense is looking really promising.

Our line is average. We need to trade down and load up. That is all I am going to say.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Our line is average. We need to trade down and load up. That is all I am going to say.

I'm all for trading down too; and I think BOSS would trade down if he was shown a good reason to.

[topscribe]

I'm all for trading down too; and I think BOSS would trade down if he was shown a good reason to.

And so would I. That's what I'm talking about.

-----

[BeefStew25]

I'm all for trading down too; and I think BOSS would trade down if he was shown a good reason to.

Okay, I can't quit you.

Yeah we need picks picks and more picks. I won't pretend to know all the players like you armchair GM's, but I know we can find some studs in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds.

A stud running back would be nice. But we need to protect Cutty so he can have some time back there.

[BOSSHOGG30]

I'm all for trading down too; and I think BOSS would trade down if he was shown a good reason to.

Yeah, I want to trade down... Stewart is only my pick if we stay at 12.

I think the guard out of Virginia can play LT. I saw something on TV this morning actually where Mike Mayock was saying the same thing. The thing is there is a lot of potential in the 2nd and 3rd rounds... no need to settle for somehting at 12...if we are...get a play maker and make that pick count. Everyone will forgive the Broncos when Stewart is one of the best backs in the NFL. A lot of people thought the Vikings didn't need Adrian Peterson when they had a good back in Taylor... but do you think the Viking fans are complaining now?

[shank]

what's the earliest and latest you guys see stewart going?

do you see any way a team would want to move up just a few spots to 12 leaving us with a chance at stewart as well as an extra pick?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I think just about everyone will tell you this is one of the best running back drafts in a long time.... With that said...if you have have one of the top 1 or 2 rated runningbacks in a draft considered one of the best ever...then what does that say about the talent we could pick up at 12!

Just thinking about Stewart or Mendenhall with Marshall, Scheffler, and Cutler as well as the very young and talented O-line we have...our offense is looking really promising.

But just because the depth is there, it doesn't mean that the top tier is better than the top tier in other seasons. Given the depth, it may be more reasonable to wait on a RB cuz the quality at RB we could get in the 2md, 3rd, or 4th most likely won't be there in those same rounds in next year's draft.

[Lonestar]

Well unless some of you know something I don't we do not have #3 this year. Seems to me we gave it up last year to someone to move up in this years draft.

Here are my priorities in the Draft DT, FS, OLT or OT way after that is RB.. regardless of how good one is, there is always next year.. A RB running behind a very GOOD OLINE is hard to stop. A stud RB running behind OUR OLINE as we speak will be only one play away from a career ending knee job..

Since it takes time for an OLINE to jell and since everyone that is realistic does not see next year as a SB contention year.. Build the OLINE and DLINE then add the RBs we feel we need for the 2009 season run for the super bowls..

I'd rather trade up using any or all of the following players foxworthless, walker, henry to get one of those stud DT's.

If that is not an option then try to trade down and get an extra draft choice or two.. Preferably in the 2nd or 3rd.

If none of the above options are not available, take the BAP at 12 regardless of position. IF Stewart is there fine, but IMO we do not need a RB this coming year.. A stud is not going to make that much difference behind our featherweight OLINE.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Well unless some of you know something I don't we do not have #3 this year. Seems to me we gave it up last year to someone to move up in this years draft.

Here are my priorities in the Draft DT, FS, OLT or OT way after that is RB.. regardless of how good one is, there is always next year.. A RB running behind a very GOOD OLINE is hard to stop. A stud RB running behind OUR OLINE as we speak will be only one play away from a career ending knee job..

Since it takes time for an OLINE to jell and since everyone that is realistic does not see next year as a SB contention year.. Build the OLINE and DLINE then add the RBs we feel we need for the 2009 season run for the super bowls..

I'd rather trade up using any or all of the following players foxworthless, walker, henry to get one of those stud DT's.

If that is not an option then try to trade down and get an extra draft choice or two.. Preferably in the 2nd or 3rd.

If none of the above options are not available, take the BAP at 12 regardless of position. IF Stewart is there fine, but IMO we do not need a RB this coming year.. A stud is not going to make that much difference behind our featherweight OLINE.

I agree w/ some of this and disagree w/ some of this.

First off, a player is susceptible to injury at any time...not just because his supporting cast is limited. Maybe a QB is gonna take more hits due to a bad Oline, but a RB is getting hit regardless of where he is tackled. What's the difference between a 320 lb DT w/ no steam hitting him and a 240 lb LB hitting him after sprinting 5-10 yards?

I do agree that we aren't getting the "quick fix" for a SB run in 2008. We aren't going to magically fill every hole. I like Kenny Phillips at 12. Some others don't. I persoannly think a RB can be had later on...so can a LB...but I'm also not gonna be upset if we land a Rivers/Connor or Stewart/mendenhall in round 1. I just don't wanna see Shanny reach for a position of need...cuz we have plenty of needs.

[shank]

i am looking at it right now similar to you jr

if we retain henry, then i want to address the lines, linebacker, and S.

but if we deal henry or cut him, i would really like to see us get someone capable in the draft, and i think stewart will be a stud.

ideally i want us to trade down, get an extra pick, and still get a player in the 1st that will make an immediate impact (as a starter). from where i sit, LB or RB look like they will be the easiest to get a player who will make a true impact in his 1st year.

if ellis or dorsey drop to 12 then hallelujah, cause i think they'd make an impact in their 1st year as well. i guess an OT could make an impact, but the competition we already have for the LT spot means it's possible our 1st rounder sits for a year (as we have done a lot with rookie OL). plus, i'd like to think that we didn't waste our 3rd last year on harris...

all this adds up to me being ok with us taking stewart if that's the way things work out.

[lex]

i am looking at it right now similar to you jr

if we retain henry, then i want to address the lines, linebacker, and S.

but if we deal henry or cut him, i would really like to see us get someone capable in the draft, and i think stewart will be a stud.

ideally i want us to trade down, get an extra pick, and still get a player in the 1st that will make an immediate impact (as a starter). from where i sit, LB or RB look like they will be the easiest to get a player who will make a true impact in his 1st year.

if ellis or dorsey drop to 12 then hallelujah, cause i think they'd make an impact in their 1st year as well. i guess an OT could make an impact, but the competition we already have for the LT spot means it's possible our 1st rounder sits for a year (as we have done a lot with rookie OL). plus, i'd like to think that we didn't waste our 3rd last year on harris...

all this adds up to me being ok with us taking stewart if that's the way things work out.


Actually Mendenhall would be as good if not better than Stewart and, depending on the combine, Mendenhall and Stewart might both be options. But in any case, as far the general notion of taking a RB goes, its all about value. I think Im actually leaning toward trading down and taking Charles in the 2nd.

[topscribe]

No Top, I'm not putting words in your mouth. This is just your way of not trying to debate something you more or less can't.

Well you're right I don't want to debate this any further because it would not
be a debate but a pissing contest. I stated my case, then indicated to Boss
that I listened to him.

Anything beyond that would be fruitless. Just read my posts, as I suggested,
then go on. It's not that important in the long run, is it?

-----

[Scarface]

I honestly think Denver would be better of taking an OT, LB, or D-Lineman in RD1. We could draft a guy like Forte and do a two back rotation with Selvin Young and be good to go. Mendenhall or Stewart don't particularly excite me as much as some of the backs that have come out the last few years. Mendenhall does intrigue me though.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Well you're right I don't want to debate this any further because it would not
be a debate but a pissing contest. I stated my case, then indicated to Boss
that I listened to him.

Anything beyond that would be fruitless. Just read my posts, as I suggested,
then go on. It's not that important in the long run, is it?

-----

You claimed that I didn't read your posts well enough and told me to read them again. My long post and argument still stands. There's not one thing I took that you said out of context.

[WARHORSE]

Well, if the Broncos are stuck at 12 and no DTs are available that would
justify that pick, then of course do something else. But then, how about OT,
or safety . . . an area of true need? Would one of them be available that
would justify a #12?

But I would think if something such as that were pending (and they are
pretty good at predicting that) and none of them are available of that
quality, then perhaps they ought to do everything they can to get out of
there and trade either up or down so they can address needs.

That's just my take. Is that as stupid as some people might think?

-----

Nope. But at the same time, if the best player available happens to be a RB the Broncos have sitting number 5 on their draft board, then we take the guy and get production not only from the pick, but for the imbalanced money as well we'll be spending for a rookie. We cant afford millions of dollars sitting on the bench simply for the sake of trying to address needs.
If its on the bench, the needs arent being addressed.

The other side of this coin is developing and believing in the guys we drafted last year on the Dline. Three picks went to the Broncos defensive line. Two day one picks and then Thomas. Since Thomas sans the offthefield issues was graded out as a first round pick, then one can look at it as we spent our picks on two first rounders, and a second for the Dline. Not to mention we got Doomer from the year before. Thats four draft picks devoted to the Dline. Do we add more, and build up the rookie mentality in the lockeroom, or do we need a strong veteran presence to temper the youth?

Id be happy with Clady. Id be happy with Phillips. Id be happy with Rivers.......as long as these guys are the guys that grade out at the top of Denvers draft boards. No reaching.:tsk:

[topscribe]

You claimed that I didn't read your posts well enough and told me to read them again. My long post and argument still stands. There's not one thing I took that you said out of context.

Okay. Whatever. :whoknows:

-----

[topscribe]

Nope. But at the same time, if the best player available happens to be a RB the Broncos have sitting number 5 on their draft board, then we take the guy and get production not only from the pick, but for the imbalanced money as well we'll be spending for a rookie. We cant afford millions of dollars sitting on the bench simply for the sake of trying to address needs.
If its on the bench, the needs arent being addressed.

The other side of this coin is developing and believing in the guys we drafted last year on the Dline. Three picks went to the Broncos defensive line. Two day one picks and then Thomas. Since Thomas sans the offthefield issues was graded out as a first round pick, then one can look at it as we spent our picks on two first rounders, and a second for the Dline. Not to mention we got Doomer from the year before. Thats four draft picks devoted to the Dline. Do we add more, and build up the rookie mentality in the lockeroom, or do we need a strong veteran presence to temper the youth?

Id be happy with Clady. Id be happy with Phillips. Id be happy with Rivers.......as long as these guys are the guys that grade out at the top of Denvers draft boards. No reaching.:tsk:

Well put. I can't see a thing I absolutely disagree with.

You and Boss are two people who patiently discussed this with me without
trying to bait me. Thank you both for being different. :beer:

-----

[Lonestar]

Well you're right I don't want to debate this any further because it would not be a debate but a pissing contest. I stated my case, then indicated to Boss that I listened to him.

Anything beyond that would be fruitless. Just read my posts, as I suggested,
then go on. It's not that important in the long run, is it?

-----


You claimed that I didn't read your posts well enough and told me to read them again. My long post and argument still stands. There's not one thing I took that you said out of context.

What do you not understand? He is not interested in debating you on this..

Your not going to change his mind nor him you.. let it rest..

[Lonestar]

Nope. But at the same time, if the best player available happens to be a RB the Broncos have sitting number 5 on their draft board, then we take the guy and get production not only from the pick, but for the imbalanced money as well we'll be spending for a rookie. We cant afford millions of dollars sitting on the bench simply for the sake of trying to address needs.
If its on the bench, the needs arent being addressed.

The other side of this coin is developing and believing in the guys we drafted last year on the Dline. Three picks went to the Broncos defensive line. Two day one picks and then Thomas. Since Thomas sans the offthefield issues was graded out as a first round pick, then one can look at it as we spent our picks on two first rounders, and a second for the Dline. Not to mention we got Doomer from the year before. Thats four draft picks devoted to the Dline. Do we add more, and build up the rookie mentality in the lockeroom, or do we need a strong veteran presence to temper the youth?

Id be happy with Clady. Id be happy with Phillips. Id be happy with Rivers.......as long as these guys are the guys that grade out at the top of Denvers draft boards. No reaching.:tsk:


While your correct here, Moss is still real unproven, Thomas looks like a keeper as well ad crowder..

But the real issue is the almost total disdain for drafting DT's under mikey.. .

I took a flyer on a couple pre 2005 most did not play a down for us..

His lack of drafting quality DL guys is something like 2 for 150 or so players drafted since he started..

quality DL guys price whom they totally ruined by overpaying him and Hayward/berry I think it was whom they drafted and then failed to resign him after his rookie contract was about to run out..

Outside of those TWO every DL guy has been a total BUST, neither of which was a DT when they drafted them.

Getting back to last years draft that was 3 2 DEs and a DT, we need another stud next to Thomas and a quality Back up that can spell these big guys.. IMO one stud should be one day one and then what ever they can find on day two.. We can fill out the other back spots with existing players.. and then we have a quality DLINE that could be here in some shape for the next 10-12 years depending on if mikey gets his head out of his ass and resigns the really good ones..

[mclark]

I think the big issue here Top is your overly optimistic view on a roster that has gone 16-16 the past two years and 7-9 this past year respectively; you make it sound as if we don't have any flaws. You keep talking about players like Young and Stokley, who coach Shanahan said were never full time guys and need to be in limited roles; and talk about problem child and injury prone big contracts like Walker and Henry who probably won't even be on the team this next year. Then again, the way you're approaching some of these draft guys is almost insulting.

Acres of Diamonds principle? You don't understand? What do you mean you don't understand? Javon Walker doesn't want to play here anymore and the Broncos don't want to pay him his bonus because due to his injury history and poor attitude. Travis Henry avoided suspension on a technicality, and hurt his MCL this year. Well, Ian Gold (who we are also shopping) is just a turd and always has been. Sort of like Gerard Warren. If Denver gets rid of any of these three (which they will) they need starters to replace them; so it's perfectly understandable for anyone to be advocating the use of a first round pick on areas that aren't OT or DT.

For example; a running back this year like Jonathan Stewart is going to do a hell of a lot more for the team as a starter than the #3 defensive tackle in the draft would do for this team. Kentwan Balmer in the top fifteen is an absolute mistake. Like these other guys have been talking about; it's about value. Everyone that's posting right now form WARHORSE, Lex to BOSS realized that the trenches need to be upgraded; however - who says we can't have the best of both worlds?

I think you're missing the big picture here. Denver would rather cut loose the trash they have on the team right now; take the cap hit now and have the ability to re-sign the young, solid group of core players they have right now. (Tony, Brandon, Elvis, etc.)

In an ideal world, Denver would trade down some spots - be in line for an impact player and get some more picks to help an ailing roster. Nobody here is saying ignore the defensive and offensive lines.

History shows that (A) defensive tackle is one of the hardest positions to translate your pro game to the NFL level and outside Dorsey and Ellis; there isn't an impact guy who is going to be able to help this team win games next year (B) Even if Denver drafted a tackle high; what's the chance he'll actually contribute next year? I'm all for an offensive tackle and told people over 3 months ago that the Broncos loved Clady and Baker; and I maintain to this day that's quality information. However the draft is about value, and if a guy like Stewart or Mendenhall is there; both at the ripe age of 20/21; who have years of longevity and the likelihood of success in front of them - pairing them with Jay Cutler is the best thing the team could realistically do. Whose to say that we can't get someone like Sam Baker at #42 and bolster the offensive line? Maybe a Pat Sims is there at #42 and we pair him with Marcus Thomas?

I think you're not understanding the value and how the draft actually works.

Talking about drafting a running back is not an asinine conversation. It's probably close to reality. Selvin Young having off-season surgery and coach Shanahan stating that well; he's not a full-time guy - and the fact that Henry's decision is very much up in the air and might not be back is more than a justifiable reason to have this conversation. If March 1st rolls around and Henry is still on his roster (whether he restructured, cried with his children in front of Mike and begged for mercy, etc.) then this talk was much ado about nothing.

People here are talking about things which they think can help this team improve for the future. That's perfectly okay. Nobody here is saying ignore OT, DT and S. I think we all want to see youth come in at all these positions. Problem is, we're lacking some picks - so what to do? People are giving their thoughts and weighing their options; that's awesome. I think these posters tend to see things in the real light and not in orange and blue shades.

This is a pretty well-reasoned analysis.

We are going to know alot more in a few weeks. If we let Henry go, we will NEED a runningback. If we trade Javon, we'll have a need at WR. But we'll probably also being playing the free agent market. If everything falls in place, drafting Stewart might make a lot of sense. Clady, Stewart, Phillips...and there are some other names that might make sense.

[DenBronx]

Not to hate on you but, the other Stew is also built like a friggin tank.

http://community.theolympian.com/albums/album84/stewart.jpg

I don't know how jacked the real beef stew is.

dayum! that guy is built like a rock. he looks like a bigger jones-drew. i like the fact that he runs a 4.3 too. honestly one of the top 3 rbs will fall past 12 though....i think if we traded back to 15 or so mendenhall or stewart would still be there. i'm really excited about seeing what stewart can do at the combine though.

[topscribe]

dayum! that guy is built like a rock. he looks like a bigger jones-drew. i like the fact that he runs a 4.3 too. honestly one of the top 3 rbs will fall past 12 though....i think if we traded back to 15 or so mendenhall or stewart would still be there. i'm really excited about seeing what stewart can do at the combine though.

Wow, look at those guns, those legs!

I see what Boss means . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

Wow, look at those guns, those legs!

I see what Boss means . . .

-----

You going man crush here?

[topscribe]

You going man crush here?

Well, I was thinking maybe he could go two ways.

Running back, of course. But play him for just one down on defense . . . the first defensive play of the game.

Line him up across center, he gives the center a concussion, then goes back to offense.

Sound like a plan?

-----

[Lonestar]

Well, I was thinking maybe he could go two ways.

Running back, of course. But play him for just one down on defense . . . the first defensive play of the game.

Line him up across center, he gives the center a concussion, then goes back to offense.

Sound like a plan?

-----

A two-way guy..

just what some on Santa Monica blvd (west LA) would be looking for..

[Scarface]

dayum! that guy is built like a rock. he looks like a bigger jones-drew. i like the fact that he runs a 4.3 too. honestly one of the top 3 rbs will fall past 12 though....i think if we traded back to 15 or so mendenhall or stewart would still be there. i'm really excited about seeing what stewart can do at the combine though.

We'll find out soon enough if that's true.

[BOSSHOGG30]

There is no way he still runs a 4.3... That was his freshman year... he has put on another 15 to 20 pounds since the last time he ran that..... he will probably be in the 4.4 range... which is still very good for a guy his size.

[lex]

We'll find out soon enough if that's true.

Right. Unless a 40 time comes from a place where several players are also running, its hard to give them too much credibility. Virginia Tech, for example, is famous for having drastically inflated 40 times. Not all places do it the same and even if they do, they have different people timing them. I would be surprised if Stewart runs in the 4.3s. 4.45-4.55 seems more realistic for him. I would be very impressed if he ran in the 4.3s though. Even if he doesnt 4.5 is pretty fast for someone of his size.

[BOSSHOGG30]

I think he will run in the 4.4 to low 4.5 range. If he runs anything better than that then it is only a plus and will probably improve his stock.

[Scarface]

Some sick photos of these guys i found at SI.com:

http://i.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0801/nfl.top12.rb.prospects/images/stewart.jpg

http://i.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0801/nfl.top12.rb.prospects/images/mendenhall.jpg

[BOSSHOGG30]

Nice pics Scar... I love the Stewart one.

That pic shows how defenders will try to take him low because they know they can't take him high with out getting mauled over. Stewart has the skills to make people miss anyways.

[BeefStew25]

Boss, if Stewart wanted to marry you, would you do it?

[BOSSHOGG30]

Boss, if Stewart wanted to marry you, would you do it?

Are you in the computer room! I wouldn't do that to you honey. You know i'm saving myself for you Beef. Now get back in bed... I will share my lap top with you.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Boss, if Stewart wanted to marry you, would you do it?

No...he's still saving himself for Tony Hunt. :salute: