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broncofaninfla
01-07-2010, 11:49 AM
Grade the 2009 Broncos- Offensive line

Dirk
01-07-2010, 01:05 PM
Definately a D on this one. The only saving grace for not getting an F from me is Clady and Harris' time while he was playing.

I was totally disapointed in the O-line play.

missingnumber7
01-07-2010, 01:14 PM
If we graded seperately for pass and run blocking it would be a different story. I would say D+. If the run blocking weren't so horrendous maybe a C, but minus the KC game it was aweful.

UnderArmour
01-07-2010, 01:25 PM
Hard to evaluate. If everyone had been healthy, could have easily been a B. But because of an injury plagued season, they played at a D level.

broncofaninfla
01-07-2010, 01:40 PM
IMO the offensive line went from being the best asset we had to the weakest link. Scheme changes, injuries, age and poor play calling all seemed to play a part in this demise. Hamilton and Hochstein were nothing short of pathetic. Being Hoch is a Josh guy he might be invited back for depth. As for 2010 we'll need more beef in the guards and center postions and better depth at tackle as for as personel goes. But that won't fix the problem entirely, the scheme and play calling has to improve or the personel changes will be all for not.

Cugel
01-07-2010, 03:33 PM
Personally, I'd give them a C-.

Last year the line play was brilliant and Clady in his rookie season gave up only 1 sack. Then McDaniels came in and changed the scheme and it was never the same since.

This failure is a big part of the reason the Broncos offense was so anemic all season.

The personnel that fit beautifully in the ZBS are clearly NOT a good fit for this new scheme. They will have to find a bunch of new OL over the next few years.

But, I doubt McDaniels will last long enough to totally implement his "scheme." One more year like last year and he's gone!

"Like a steam locomotive, running down the track. He's gone! He's GONE and nothin's gonna bring him back! He's gone!"

silkamilkamonico
01-07-2010, 03:36 PM
I'd give them a D.

They'll be much better next year when McDaniels gets his interior, and then the offense is going to click. I'll expect the system will be good enough to get us a playoff appearance and probably even a win.

At that point, he's going to find out if Orton is his future QB or not.

Northman
01-07-2010, 03:41 PM
Definately a D on this one. The only saving grace for not getting an F from me is Clady and Harris' time while he was playing.

I was totally disapointed in the O-line play.

Same here.

Elevation inc
01-08-2010, 04:28 AM
Personally, I'd give them a C-.

Last year the line play was brilliant and Clady in his rookie season gave up only 1 sack. Then McDaniels came in and changed the scheme and it was never the same since.

This failure is a big part of the reason the Broncos offense was so anemic all season.

The personnel that fit beautifully in the ZBS are clearly NOT a good fit for this new scheme. They will have to find a bunch of new OL over the next few years.

But, I doubt McDaniels will last long enough to totally implement his "scheme." One more year like last year and he's gone!

"Like a steam locomotive, running down the track. He's gone! He's GONE and nothin's gonna bring him back! He's gone!"


why do people forget we ran about 55% shotgun runs last year...he changed his terminology but shanny was changing his system and moving from the ZBS to mirror the patriots offense...

our OL sucked this year because they sucked.....for once lets make players accountable for crappy play....

weigman, hamilton and kuper played like crap at various junctures....polumbus has no business as a starte and neither does hochstein.....

its quite simple...block the man in front of you....if you need a scheme like the zbs to hide how you suck at blocking then you wont play well in december when games matter, which is exactly why ZBs denver ran teams choked the last 3 years late, we just werent that good inside period!!!!!

we ran shoutgun stuff all last year......

Broncolingus
01-08-2010, 04:54 AM
C- for me I guess...(I picked C on the poll)

Echo what everyone's said...injuries, etc.

Clady remains a monster however and one of my fav's...glad he made the Pro Bowl (should have gone last year regardless of Rookie status or 'go next year based on this year' philosophy)...

Broncos Inc. needs to pick up some interior linemen...on BOTH sides of the ball.

arapaho2
01-08-2010, 12:30 PM
why do people forget we ran about 55% shotgun runs last year...he changed his terminology but shanny was changing his system and moving from the ZBS to mirror the patriots offense...

our OL sucked this year because they sucked.....for once lets make players accountable for crappy play....

weigman, hamilton and kuper played like crap at various junctures....polumbus has no business as a starte and neither does hochstein.....

its quite simple...block the man in front of you....if you need a scheme like the zbs to hide how you suck at blocking then you wont play well in december when games matter, which is exactly why ZBs denver ran teams choked the last 3 years late, we just werent that good inside period!!!!!

we ran shoutgun stuff all last year......

see this is the kind of backwards thinking i hate

ZBS is not a pass blocking technique....zb is designed for running the ball....these guys arent just sucking now when they were great last year..the scheme was changed

we ran shotgun in 2008 in the passing offense to take advantage of cutler speed and mobility...we were also forced to score alot of points to keep up, therefor we passed alot..considering our defense allowed 28 per game

but we also passed from the shotgun about 60% this year..2009

so i dont see how we can say the oline just suddenly got terrible

considering not only did we changed the entire offensive scheme, but more then likely mcd wanted a differant pass blocking scheme then what we have been running...have a qb who cant roll out, cant run, cant avoid the pass rush..and our sack number skyrocketed

we changed to a power blocking scheme...despite these guys all brought here..for the zbs..but its all thier fault we cant run?

so what if polumbus isnt starting material now..he wasnt expected to be the starter was he

if you work in a a huge corperation office, very complex, lots of personel...and a new office manager comes in, changes everything...from purchasing, requesitions, chain of command, policies, proceedures, scope of work, assignments, duties....you truely cant excpet the office to not miss a beat, or be as efficient right off the bat..but i guess you would say..they just suck now

Denver Native (Carol)
01-08-2010, 12:42 PM
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99769

With Harris starting at RT (eight games):

Record: 7 - 1

Net Rushing: 1,107 yards on 249 attempts, 4.45 avg.

Offensive points: 184 total, 23.0 per game


Without Harris starting at RT (seven games):

Record: 1 - 6

Net Rushing: 645 yards on 169 attempts, 3.8 avg.

Offensive points: 118 total, 16.86 per game



Obviously Harris isn't the whole story, but the difference in rushing is astounding, and undoubtedly that has an effect on the final score and the win/loss column to some degree.

The top row (with Harris starting) includes the Baltimore game which is the game he left with the injury. It also included the KC game where he came back and started the KC game (44-13, 245 yards on 45 attempts).

After the Pittsburgh game (game eight) is when Hamilton was replaced by Hochstein. In that game we only acheived 26 yards on fourteen attempts. Ugh.

I've noted all season that our only successful runs seem to be off the edges, off-tackle and outside. It would seem that without Harris at the RT we even lose that ability, and just simply can't run the ball effectively enough.

The comparison is pretty astounding. There's a whole host of other facets, but this difference is pretty hard to ignore.

Edit, I meant to include this thought in the original post:

What's very telling is the difference in our performance against Oakland,both with and without Harris.

Oakland game one with Harris: 186 yards on 37 attempts, 27 points scored

Oakland game two without: 80 yards on 28 attempts, 19 points scored
__________________

Nomad
01-08-2010, 12:49 PM
why do people forget we ran about 55% shotgun runs last year...he changed his terminology but shanny was changing his system and moving from the ZBS to mirror the patriots offense...

our OL sucked this year because they sucked.....for once lets make players accountable for crappy play....

weigman, hamilton and kuper played like crap at various junctures....polumbus has no business as a starte and neither does hochstein.....

its quite simple...block the man in front of you....if you need a scheme like the zbs to hide how you suck at blocking then you wont play well in december when games matter, which is exactly why ZBs denver ran teams choked the last 3 years late, we just werent that good inside period!!!!!

we ran shoutgun stuff all last year......


Good post and well said!! There's always an excuse but you're right the players need to be held accountable. You're an offensive lineman and your job is to block regardless of the scheme and they didn't do it very well!!

silkamilkamonico
01-08-2010, 02:42 PM
see this is the kind of backwards thinking i hate

ZBS is not a pass blocking technique....zb is designed for running the ball....these guys arent just sucking now when they were great last year..the scheme was changed

we ran shotgun in 2008 in the passing offense to take advantage of cutler speed and mobility...we were also forced to score alot of points to keep up, therefor we passed alot..considering our defense allowed 28 per game

but we also passed from the shotgun about 60% this year..2009

so i dont see how we can say the oline just suddenly got terrible


Ryan Harris.

People bashing the oline this year tend to forget it was very solid and stable up until the point he got hurt, which was the Baltimore game.

silkamilkamonico
01-08-2010, 02:43 PM
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99769

With Harris starting at RT (eight games):

Record: 7 - 1

Net Rushing: 1,107 yards on 249 attempts, 4.45 avg.

Offensive points: 184 total, 23.0 per game


Without Harris starting at RT (seven games):

Record: 1 - 6

Net Rushing: 645 yards on 169 attempts, 3.8 avg.

Offensive points: 118 total, 16.86 per game



Obviously Harris isn't the whole story, but the difference in rushing is astounding, and undoubtedly that has an effect on the final score and the win/loss column to some degree.

The top row (with Harris starting) includes the Baltimore game which is the game he left with the injury. It also included the KC game where he came back and started the KC game (44-13, 245 yards on 45 attempts).

After the Pittsburgh game (game eight) is when Hamilton was replaced by Hochstein. In that game we only acheived 26 yards on fourteen attempts. Ugh.

I've noted all season that our only successful runs seem to be off the edges, off-tackle and outside. It would seem that without Harris at the RT we even lose that ability, and just simply can't run the ball effectively enough.

The comparison is pretty astounding. There's a whole host of other facets, but this difference is pretty hard to ignore.

Edit, I meant to include this thought in the original post:

What's very telling is the difference in our performance against Oakland,both with and without Harris.

Oakland game one with Harris: 186 yards on 37 attempts, 27 points scored

Oakland game two without: 80 yards on 28 attempts, 19 points scored
__________________


The most intelligent post in this thread, and chances are it will contine to get overlooked by the ignorance seeping out of this place.

silkamilkamonico
01-08-2010, 02:46 PM
Offensive points: 184 total, 23.0 per game


Interesting.

That's pretty similiar for what we averaged last year when Ryan Harris played the entire season, and we had less talent on offense this year.

In-ter-est-ing

EMB6903
01-08-2010, 02:52 PM
I went with a C, even though I thought Denver was above average as an offensive line the expectations were much higher going into the season.. One of the areas I was pretty disapointed in.... Need to get a lot more aggressive inside the tackles.

Elevation inc
01-10-2010, 07:14 AM
see this is the kind of backwards thinking i hate

ZBS is not a pass blocking technique....zb is designed for running the ball....these guys arent just sucking now when they were great last year..the scheme was changed

we ran shotgun in 2008 in the passing offense to take advantage of cutler speed and mobility...we were also forced to score alot of points to keep up, therefor we passed alot..considering our defense allowed 28 per game

but we also passed from the shotgun about 60% this year..2009

so i dont see how we can say the oline just suddenly got terrible

considering not only did we changed the entire offensive scheme, but more then likely mcd wanted a differant pass blocking scheme then what we have been running...have a qb who cant roll out, cant run, cant avoid the pass rush..and our sack number skyrocketed

we changed to a power blocking scheme...despite these guys all brought here..for the zbs..but its all thier fault we cant run?

so what if polumbus isnt starting material now..he wasnt expected to be the starter was he

if you work in a a huge corperation office, very complex, lots of personel...and a new office manager comes in, changes everything...from purchasing, requesitions, chain of command, policies, proceedures, scope of work, assignments, duties....you truely cant excpet the office to not miss a beat, or be as efficient right off the bat..but i guess you would say..they just suck now



oh jesus read my first line we ran 55 % of our runs last year out of no ZBS shotgun gun looks, i never said anything about pass blocking chnages....get a grip.....

shanny had a new toy and wanted to mirror the patriots offense, him cutler and bates were even quoted as saying a such....

the ZBS hasnt been as prevlant here as people think since jay cutler was inserted the starte and shanny wanted to take his new ferrari for a ride....


hell i give credit to MCd or being nice enough to give gusy liek hamilton and kuper and weigman a chnace, as they clearly dont fit the power game what is what he wants to run...

and seriously name the last ZBS oriented team to win a SB????? oh wait thats right us almost 11 years ago....

ZBS is old trciks and it started failing miserably after 2005 as teams got much more physical at the LOS with us....

arapaho2
01-10-2010, 09:47 PM
oh jesus read my first line we ran 55 % of our runs last year out of no ZBS shotgun gun looks, i never said anything about pass blocking chnages....get a grip.....

shanny had a new toy and wanted to mirror the patriots offense, him cutler and bates were even quoted as saying a such....

the ZBS hasnt been as prevlant here as people think since jay cutler was inserted the starte and shanny wanted to take his new ferrari for a ride....


hell i give credit to MCd or being nice enough to give gusy liek hamilton and kuper and weigman a chnace, as they clearly dont fit the power game what is what he wants to run...

and seriously name the last ZBS oriented team to win a SB????? oh wait thats right us almost 11 years ago....

ZBS is old trciks and it started failing miserably after 2005 as teams got much more physical at the LOS with us....

ok captian snippy...show me where i s=condemmed the power fun attack/

in fact i dont care if we change ...not the issue..the issue is blaming weigman, hamilton, kuper for a bad run game and bad pass protection when they were one of the best units last yr

its not the change im calling out...its the people who are blaming the line when they were not drafted for a power scheme or brought here...because they are typically smaller but have the lateral movement needed fotr the zbs

its the part where josh and kyle have no part in makeing them appear worse

Elevation inc
01-11-2010, 04:42 AM
ok captian snippy...show me where i s=condemmed the power fun attack/

in fact i dont care if we change ...not the issue..the issue is blaming weigman, hamilton, kuper for a bad run game and bad pass protection when they were one of the best units last yr

its not the change im calling out...its the people who are blaming the line when they were not drafted for a power scheme or brought here...because they are typically smaller but have the lateral movement needed fotr the zbs

its the part where josh and kyle have no part in makeing them appear worse


lol captain snippy...nice...lol:salute:


players need to block regardless of the scheme, this Zbs thing is overrated as we ran much of the same looks and plays this year as we did last year with cutler....they were better last year yes...this year they werent....maybe its just they arent that good anymore.....it does happen year to year all over the NFL.....

i will say ortons lack of mobility is a issue and a big reason some sacks happened that shouldnt have, but in all honesty our interior hasnt been that good since 2005....the poor running game was a big fault of the OL...move the blinders bro....just do it....lol

its just time to get with a new age and thats power, finesse run blocking jsut aint effective when it counts anymore....

arapaho2
01-11-2010, 12:21 PM
lol captain snippy...nice...lol:salute:


players need to block regardless of the scheme, this Zbs thing is overrated as we ran much of the same looks and plays this year as we did last year with cutler....they were better last year yes...this year they werent....maybe its just they arent that good anymore.....it does happen year to year all over the NFL.....

i will say ortons lack of mobility is a issue and a big reason some sacks happened that shouldnt have, but in all honesty our interior hasnt been that good since 2005....the poor running game was a big fault of the OL...move the blinders bro....just do it....lol

its just time to get with a new age and thats power, finesse run blocking jsut aint effective when it counts anymore....

players need to block regardless..true...but a 290 pound center or guard blocking zone in a cohesive moving line ..might handle a 340 pound DT a little better then going strictly nose to nose...right?....so is it the players fault he is undersized for a power run blocking scheme..or the coaches for making him do it

and as much as i believe players can regress over time...i dont see dropping as far in the run game and 22 sacks worse is because these guys suddenly suck

and true shannys run game suffered lately...but i believe it suffered because of the backs ....we didnt have a issue with TD...nor with portis, or anderson..our struggles steam rolled because shanny refused to acknowledge he got lucky with TD late...and if he wanted a comparable talent he might have to draft early...we went from 2-3rd rnd backs to all undrafted backs and expected to see the same results as we did with TD and portis

and again the issue isnt that were changing...if it works i dont care...the issue is with people who insist the scheme, qb and coach have no liability in the lines sudden decline

Elevation inc
01-11-2010, 12:33 PM
players need to block regardless..true...but a 290 pound center or guard blocking zone in a cohesive moving line ..might handle a 340 pound DT a little better then going strictly nose to nose...right?....so is it the players fault he is undersized for a power run blocking scheme..or the coaches for making him do it

and as much as i believe players can regress over time...i dont see dropping as far in the run game and 22 sacks worse is because these guys suddenly suck

and true shannys run game suffered lately...but i believe it suffered because of the backs ....we didnt have a issue with TD...nor with portis, or anderson..our struggles steam rolled because shanny refused to acknowledge he got lucky with TD late...and if he wanted a comparable talent he might have to draft early...we went from 2-3rd rnd backs to all undrafted backs and expected to see the same results as we did with TD and portis

and again the issue isnt that were changing...if it works i dont care...the issue is with people who insist the scheme, qb and coach have no liability in the lines sudden decline



we will never agree on this i think the interior players just flat out sucked this year and havent been that great since 2005....our redzone run game always sucked and unless we have a mobile Qb the pass protection aint tha great either inside...

i think hamilton and weigman and kuper were lucky they were still here to be honest....the guard FA pool was decent last year and there was some good pieces in the draft to be had but MCd tried this whole ZBs thing with dennison...

MCd gave them there shot for a scheme switch....they failed....and those 290Lb blockers could barely hold off a 340 DT the last few years anyway...dont belive??? well go back to 2005 to see our last dominant run game and interior... OL....

Also when is the last time A ZBS oriented team won the SB or even went far in the playoffs...guess us in 2005 maybe...the Zbs just aint that great anymore its run its course a bit.....thats why teams like oakland and houston fail to run the ball effectively when it matters in later months in the redzone..unless oakland is playing denvers run defense..HAHA


meh anyways man i disagree with you entirely and its clear we wont see even keel so we will just agree to disagree and hope the next year is better:salute:

Medford Bronco
01-11-2010, 12:34 PM
Where is C+ as that is my grade

A- in games 1-8
D- in games 9-16

Lonestar
01-11-2010, 02:36 PM
Definately a D on this one. The only saving grace for not getting an F from me is Clady and Harris' time while he was playing.

I was totally disapointed in the O-line play.

I did not see this before voting or I might have been swayed by it..

I gave them an F in pass protection and non existent run blocking.

time to totally revamp All but OLT we need much more beef up front..

Harris and Kuper can be backups for next year but everyone else but C (310) should be 325 plus.

Where's the beef?

Lonestar
01-11-2010, 02:38 PM
IMO the offensive line went from being the best asset we had to the weakest link. Scheme changes, injuries, age and poor play calling all seemed to play a part in this demise. Hamilton and Hochstein were nothing short of pathetic. Being Hoch is a Josh guy he might be invited back for depth. As for 2010 we'll need more beef in the guards and center postions and better depth at tackle as for as personel goes. But that won't fix the problem entirely, the scheme and play calling has to improve or the personel changes will be all for not.

not weakest link at all that had to be the DLINE.. but a close second :laugh:

Lonestar
01-11-2010, 02:46 PM
see this is the kind of backwards thinking i hate

ZBS is not a pass blocking technique....zb is designed for running the ball....these guys arent just sucking now when they were great last year..the scheme was changed

we ran shotgun in 2008 in the passing offense to take advantage of cutler speed and mobility...we were also forced to score alot of points to keep up, therefor we passed alot..considering our defense allowed 28 per game

but we also passed from the shotgun about 60% this year..2009

so i dont see how we can say the oline just suddenly got terrible

considering not only did we changed the entire offensive scheme, but more then likely mcd wanted a differant pass blocking scheme then what we have been running...have a qb who cant roll out, cant run, cant avoid the pass rush..and our sack number skyrocketed

we changed to a power blocking scheme...despite these guys all brought here..for the zbs..but its all thier fault we cant run?

so what if polumbus isnt starting material now..he wasnt expected to be the starter was he

if you work in a a huge corperation office, very complex, lots of personel...and a new office manager comes in, changes everything...from purchasing, requesitions, chain of command, policies, proceedures, scope of work, assignments, duties....you truely cant excpet the office to not miss a beat, or be as efficient right off the bat..but i guess you would say..they just suck now


the OLINE sucked this year you can't say anything other than that .. for whatever reason they sucked..

as for Orton not being able to scramble he did not have anywhere to go the DE pinned him inside and the DT/NT collapsed the pocket .. when he could move up into the pocket he bought a lot of time for receivers to get open.
most of the time hamilton was being pushed back into him, while hochstein was somewhat better he also left a lot to be desired..

I know you think that Josh is the root of all evil, but it is time to embrace him as he is indeed the NEW HC.

Lonestar
01-11-2010, 02:51 PM
oh jesus read my first line we ran 55 % of our runs last year out of no ZBS shotgun gun looks, i never said anything about pass blocking chnages....get a grip.....

shanny had a new toy and wanted to mirror the patriots offense, him cutler and bates were even quoted as saying a such....

the ZBS hasnt been as prevlant here as people think since jay cutler was inserted the starte and shanny wanted to take his new ferrari for a ride....


hell i give credit to MCd or being nice enough to give gusy liek hamilton and kuper and weigman a chnace, as they clearly dont fit the power game what is what he wants to run...

and seriously name the last ZBS oriented team to win a SB????? oh wait thats right us almost 11 years ago....

ZBS is old trciks and it started failing miserably after 2005 as teams got much more physical at the LOS with us....:salute:


PLus many more teams now run some variation of it, 6 or more so it is no longer an anomoloy more and more DC are preparing for it. they no longer have only the Broncos to worry about every 4 or 5 years once on their schedules, those in our division have adjusted to it and have done a good job in stopping it.

Dean
01-11-2010, 07:06 PM
Football Outsiders thinks more highly of our O-line than McKid and most of us. here are their metrics.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Take it for whatever it's worth.

Elevation inc
01-12-2010, 05:05 AM
Football Outsiders thinks more highly of our O-line than McKid and most of us. here are their metrics.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Take it for whatever it's worth.

meh i have my opinion but its still good info...thanks....:salute:

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 12:29 PM
the OLINE sucked this year you can't say anything other than that .. for whatever reason they sucked..

as for Orton not being able to scramble he did not have anywhere to go the DE pinned him inside and the DT/NT collapsed the pocket .. when he could move up into the pocket he bought a lot of time for receivers to get open.
most of the time hamilton was being pushed back into him, while hochstein was somewhat better he also left a lot to be desired..

I know you think that Josh is the root of all evil, but it is time to embrace him as he is indeed the NEW HC.


weird how hamiltin, kuper and weigman were part of one of the best olines last season..and gave up only five sacks between them....just for whatever reason simply suck now......i mean haveing a qb qb with the pocket presence of a sack of potatoes isnt the reason:coffee:

Elevation inc
01-12-2010, 01:58 PM
weird how hamiltin, kuper and weigman were part of one of the best olines last season..and gave up only five sacks between them....just for whatever reason simply suck now......i mean haveing a qb qb with the pocket presence of a sack of potatoes isnt the reason:coffee:

pass blocking wasnt a issue that much this year either...polumbus and hamilton sucked but kuper and weigman were servicecable....run blocking the whole inside and back-ups blew chunks period...they werent horrible last year like this year but they were still pretty crappy as many members felt weigman, polumbus and are depth were atrocius...now age caught weigman, and kuper is in no mans land without harris....

the problems starts and stops with the OL, you can add or speculate in otehr factors...but this line has been due a size and talent upgrade inside since 2005...now we just have the glaring reasons to make it happen and leave the zbs in the dust for good.....

56crash
01-12-2010, 02:40 PM
sorry your poll is flawed . the Oline seemed to fall a part after Harris got hurt.

SOCALORADO.
01-12-2010, 02:48 PM
sorry your poll is flawed . the Oline seemed to fall a part after Harris got hurt.

Its flawed because specific players should be graded separately.
Clady-A
Harris-B+(while healthy)
Kuper-B (When Harris was next to him)
Weigmann-D
Hamilton-F-

Weigman and hamilton must simply be replaced. Problem solved.

broncofaninfla
01-12-2010, 03:22 PM
Its flawed because specific players should be graded separately.
Clady-A
Harris-B+(while healthy)
Kuper-B (When Harris was next to him)
Weigmann-D
Hamilton-F-

Weigman and hamilton must simply be replaced. Problem solved.

I agree puls I'd add Hochstein as a F as well.

arapaho2
01-12-2010, 06:12 PM
Its flawed because specific players should be graded separately.
Clady-A
Harris-B+(while healthy)
Kuper-B (When Harris was next to him)
Weigmann-D
Hamilton-F-

Weigman and hamilton must simply be replaced. Problem solved.

and yet clady gave up more sacks then any of them..weird