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Superchop 7
01-04-2010, 08:49 PM
Kub's is trying to get Dennison before Shanny is named coach.....

Slick move Gary.....

Slick.

dogfish
01-04-2010, 08:53 PM
is this news, or are you just speculating?


either way, it wouldn't be any surprise. . . if we aren't going to utilize the ZBS, we may as well let him go somewhere that his ability can actually be put to use. . . i've assumed for most of the season that bobby turner will be next, which IMO will be a huge frickin' loss to this franchise. . .

and i'm sure somebody will be quick to jump in with some bullshit criticism of how their units didn't get it done this year, which is true as far as it goes, but it hardly negates over a decade of pure excellence in the running game, going back to when turner and gibbs put together the engine of a championship team. . .

if dennison does go, i'll thank him for all the thousand yard rushers and wish him well wherever he ends up-- as long as it's out of the AFC west. . .

red98
01-04-2010, 08:58 PM
is this news, or are you just speculating?


either way, it wouldn't be any surprise. . . if we aren't going to utilize the ZBS, we may as well let him go somewhere that his ability can actually be put to use. . . i've assumed for most of the season that bobby turner will be next, which IMO will be a huge frickin' loss to this franchise. . .

and i'm sure somebody will be quick to jump in with some bullshit criticism of how their units didn't get it done this year, which is true as far as it goes, but it hardly negates over a decade of pure excellence in the running game, going back to when turner and gibbs put together the engine of a championship team. . .

if dennison does go, i'll thank him for all the thousand yard rushers and wish him well wherever he ends up-- as long as it's out of the AFC west. . .

I saw a story at PFT saying Dennison is on the short list to replace Shanny Jr as OC in Houston. If Shanny wants Dennison in DC it won't be as OC so I think Kubes has him if he wants him.

I will be very sad to see Dennison and Turner leave this off-season, but I think that's what's going to happen.

dogfish
01-04-2010, 09:45 PM
I saw a story at PFT saying Dennison is on the short list to replace Shanny Jr as OC in Houston. If Shanny wants Dennison in DC it won't be as OC so I think Kubes has him if he wants him.

I will be very sad to see Dennison and Turner leave this off-season, but I think that's what's going to happen.

if shenanigans wants him bad enough they can always offer him the oh-so-vague "assistant head coach" title along with O-line coach, or running game coordinator, or whatever. . . also, i think mcnair has pretty deep pockets, but no one outspends dan snyder. . .

if dennison's smart, though, he'll go to houston. . . IMO that team is a juggernaut in the making-- washinton, OTOH, has jack shit to work with on that side of the ball. . . couple TEs and wideouts, but their OL is a shambles. . . much easier to walk into a situation where gibbs already has the guys coached up. . .

Bozo Jr.
01-04-2010, 10:12 PM
if shenanigans wants him bad enough they can always offer him the oh-so-vague "assistant head coach" title along with O-line coach, or running game coordinator, or whatever. . . also, i think mcnair has pretty deep pockets, but no one outspends dan snyder. . .

if dennison's smart, though, he'll go to houston. . . IMO that team is a juggernaut in the making-- washinton, OTOH, has jack shit to work with on that side of the ball. . . couple TEs and wideouts, but their OL is a shambles. . . much easier to walk into a situation where gibbs already has the guys coached up. . .

After the Shanny firing I was hoping we would promote from within and name Dennison the new HC. Oh well :tsk:, I would really hate to see him go.

Ziggy
01-04-2010, 10:19 PM
Dennison and Turner are pure class and have been nothing but great for the Broncos. If they do go, I wish them well. Both deserve a change of scenery if that's what they want. I'll also be wishing Shanny the best in Washington. I have fond Superbowl memories because of him.

elsid13
01-04-2010, 10:22 PM
After the Shanny firing I was hoping we would promote from within and name Dennison the new HC. Oh well :tsk:, I would really hate to see him go.

Kuper's dad said Dennison is one of the smartest guy he ever met, Dennison is in Mensa and would have had a career in Civil Engineering if football didn't work out. Funny thing was that Dennison got McDaniels system with a week or two and understood it almost as well as McDaniels. Dennison is one of the those guys in the NFL that people are going to be surprised how good a HC he is when he gets his chance.

Lonestar
01-04-2010, 10:33 PM
adios, goodbye don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out... sorry but I do not see why all the love for Rick..

Unlike most I have not understood why an ex LB was promoted to coach the OLINE.. never understood why everyone liked him so much..

I wish him well if he leaves.. I'd like to see Bobby stay however. He seems to have an eye for RB's

Denver Native (Carol)
01-04-2010, 10:41 PM
Rumor has it that Kyle Shanahan will end up with dad, so that would leave Kubs a void.

Superchop 7
01-04-2010, 11:23 PM
I wish him well if he leaves.. I'd like to see Bobby stay however. He seems to have an eye for RB's

__________________________________________________ _________________________________________

Yeah, that Clarett pick was gold.

frauschieze
01-04-2010, 11:28 PM
adios, goodbye don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out... sorry but I do not see why all the love for Rick..

Unlike most I have not understood why an ex LB was promoted to coach the OLINE.. never understood why everyone liked him so much..

I wish him well if he leaves.. I'd like to see Bobby stay however. He seems to have an eye for RB's

:confused:

You never saw the link between our offensive line and our running backs?

*blinks*

Lonestar
01-04-2010, 11:41 PM
:confused:

You never saw the link between our offensive line and our running backs?

*blinks*

yep it is the ZBS nothing more or less.

and he learned it from Gibbs..

dogfish
01-04-2010, 11:47 PM
JR's like mcdaniels-- he only likes "his" guys. . . :D

frauschieze
01-04-2010, 11:51 PM
yep it is the ZBS nothing more or less.

and he learned it from Gibbs..

I guess I don't understand why it matters who he learned it from if he's able to effectively teach it to new players.

Lonestar
01-04-2010, 11:56 PM
I guess I don't understand why it matters who he learned it from if he's able to effectively teach it to new players.

It does not matter IF they are effective.. I think the OLINE gets a radical overhaul and a change of what we run.. I see the ZBS going away for the most part next year..

We will be playing with much heavier players (OG's and Center) in the trenches next year..


as I said before I just do not see what everyone sees in Dennison..

sneakers
01-05-2010, 12:22 AM
if shenanigans wants him bad enough they can always offer him the oh-so-vague "assistant head coach" title along with O-line coach, or running game coordinator, or whatever. . . also, i think mcnair has pretty deep pockets, but no one outspends dan snyder. . .

if dennison's smart, though, he'll go to houston. . . IMO that team is a juggernaut in the making-- washinton, OTOH, has jack shit to work with on that side of the ball. . . couple TEs and wideouts, but their OL is a shambles. . . much easier to walk into a situation where gibbs already has the guys coached up. . .

oooh, I like that title!

smith49
01-05-2010, 03:17 AM
well im going to be honest with you all. i really dont give a rats ass about who stays and who goes this off-season. all i want to see is a team that plays like a team and wins when they need to. im sick and tired of watching these guys start out hot just to get bounced the last few games of the season. its a trend that i thought i would not see this year, but yet its exactly what happened .........again.

broncofaninfla
01-05-2010, 08:43 AM
I'd say the respect Dennison has by his players and peers means he is in fact a pretty damn good coach, just got stuck in a difference of philosophy's with Mcd perferring a power scheme with a hybrid ZBS infusion. Obviously the results were nothing short of embarrassing and Mcd will probably pull a Mcd and point fingers at Dennison on his way to bigger and better things as the OC for Houston. I wish Dennsion luck, he's been a Bronco for a long time!

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 08:44 AM
Does anyone EVER listen to ALL of a McD press conference? He's always blaming himslef along with others...but I guess it comes down to selective hearing

claymore
01-05-2010, 08:46 AM
Does anyone EVER listen to ALL of a McD press conference? He's always blaming himslef along with others...but I guess it comes down to selective hearing

Its not about my bad anymore! :D

broncofaninfla
01-05-2010, 08:48 AM
Does anyone EVER listen to ALL of a McD press conference? He's always blaming himslef along with others...but I guess it comes down to selective hearing

I listened to it and posted on the thread related to it that I did in fact like a lot of what he had to say. Problem is, I HATE what he actually did. We'll see if he's all talk or if he will in fact learn from everything he did wrong. I'm very critical of the 2009 Broncos. I have a wait and see approach with the 2010 Broncos...........

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 08:53 AM
Its not about my bad anymore! :D

No, but when the coach sits there and admits that mistakes get made and changes need to occur with everything INCLUDING HIMSELF...how the hell can someone make some blind hatred comment about how he just "points the finger" all the time.

Seriously...the irrelevant hatred has surpassed ridiculous. Questions and doubts are one thing, but I'm sure there were black men in Alabama in the 50's that got less abuse than McD does.

claymore
01-05-2010, 08:59 AM
No, but when the coach sits there and admits that mistakes get made and changes need to occur with everything INCLUDING HIMSELF...how the hell can someone make some blind hatred comment about how he just "points the finger" all the time.

Seriously...the irrelevant hatred has surpassed ridiculous. Questions and doubts are one thing, but I'm sure there were black men in Alabama in the 50's that got less abuse than McD does.

He coached a team that just had the worst colapse in Broncos history. Damned near NFL history. He deserves the blame. If he turns it around, he will deserve the credit.

To say that he hasnt pointed the finger this season is silly.

broncofaninfla
01-05-2010, 09:00 AM
No, but when the coach sits there and admits that mistakes get made and changes need to occur with everything INCLUDING HIMSELF...how the hell can someone make some blind hatred comment about how he just "points the finger" all the time.

Seriously...the irrelevant hatred has surpassed ridiculous. Questions and doubts are one thing, but I'm sure there were black men in Alabama in the 50's that got less abuse than McD does.

Consider this though.... Mcd said all season long it's not the scheme it's the execution then he seemed to finally admit scheme and play calling might have been one of the reasons we were so bad offensively. Then add to it Mcd choosing a public forum to call out the Oline, Sheff and Marshall hoping to sway public opinion and shift the focus away from his scheme and play calling. Mcd didn't just make some mistakes, he made a lot of them and by doing so he opened himself up for criticism.

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 09:03 AM
He coached a team that just had the worst colapse in Broncos history. Damned near NFL history. He deserves the blame. If he turns it around, he will deserve the credit.

To say that he hasnt pointed the finger this season is silly.

If he stands there and says, The playcalling wasnt perfect, the team dropped some passes and missed some tackles and had some dumb penalties, HE'S DOING NOTHING THAT EVERY OTHER COACH IN THE NFL HASNT BEEN DOING FOR A LOOOONG TIME.

But because he's Josh McDaniels, he pointing the finger. Are you ******* kidding me? Try watching the press conferences of other coaches and tell me what they are saying so much differently from McD.

And as far as the worst collapse in team or NFL history? now you're just making shit up

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 09:08 AM
Consider this though.... Mcd said all season long it's not the scheme it's the execution then he seemed to finally admit scheme and play calling might have been one of the reasons we were so bad offensively. Then add to it Mcd choosing a public forum to call out the Oline, Sheff and Marshall hoping to sway public opinion and shift the focus away from his scheme and play calling. Mcd didn't just make some mistakes, he made a lot of them and by doing so he opened himself up for criticism.

When he mentioned "it's not the scheme it's the execution" that was referring to the o-line. What was meant...and understood by fans that dont hate him for being him...is that the line has been using a mix of ZBS and regular blocking all season and have failed at both. In that situation...yeah...it's the execution.

During the season, he has stated ALOT of things that needed to be fixed, so let's not pretend that Marshall, Sheff and the o-line are the only things. if he never said anything people would be complaining about that. but, he's a coach and every coach is always open to criticism.

Criticism is one thing. Adolescent name-calling is another.

claymore
01-05-2010, 09:11 AM
If he stands there and says, The playcalling wasnt perfect, the team dropped some passes and missed some tackles and had some dumb penalties, HE'S DOING NOTHING THAT EVERY OTHER COACH IN THE NFL HASNT BEEN DOING FOR A LOOOONG TIME.

But because he's Josh McDaniels, he pointing the finger. Are you ******* kidding me? Try watching the press conferences of other coaches and tell me what they are saying so much differently from McD.

And as far as the worst collapse in team or NFL history? now you're just making shit up

The difference is he said it was lack of execution, poor blocking etc, when in fact it was terrible playcalling as well. Moreno, love the kid, but we should have known along time ago that 3rd and one behind our line wasnt going to happen.

Let alone 10 times a game. Ive never seen a team stuffed on 3rd and short.

As for the collapse.....


There were 10 scenarios when the day began for the Broncos to avoid joining the 1978 Redskins and ’03 Vikings as the only teams since the 1970 AFL-NFL merger to miss the playoffs after a 6-0 start
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/recap?gid=20100103007


2 teams in almost 40 years. That was the worst Collapse In Bronco history.

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 09:21 AM
The difference is he said it was lack of execution, poor blocking etc, when in fact it was terrible playcalling as well. Moreno, love the kid, but we should have known along time ago that 3rd and one behind our line wasnt going to happen.

Let alone 10 times a game. Ive never seen a team stuffed on 3rd and short.

As for the collapse.....



2 teams in almost 40 years. That was the worst Collapse In Bronco history.

...and it doesnt make sense when the reason is explained that its better to let a RB try to get into a rhythm? Or the fact that Hillis failed on about the same percentage of short yardage attempts he had?

The collapse. I guess it would be more monumental if we had a team that really had any right being 6-0 in the first place. We had a lot of luck on our side in those forst 6 games and we played a more team-oriented game.

As far as it all goes...I agree with McDaniels. The coaches and players should share the blame for ALL of it

claymore
01-05-2010, 09:27 AM
...and it doesnt make sense when the reason is explained that its better to let a RB try to get into a rhythm? Or the fact that Hillis failed on about the same percentage of short yardage attempts he had?

The collapse. I guess it would be more monumental if we had a team that really had any right being 6-0 in the first place. We had a lot of luck on our side in those forst 6 games and we played a more team-oriented game.

As far as it all goes...I agree with McDaniels. The coaches and players should share the blame for ALL of it

Im not saying hillis should have got the ball. Im not one of the Hillis guys. Im also not a HC, I dont know what have worked, thats his job to figure out. All I know is it didnt work, over, and over, and over again.

If the goal is for it to eventually to work (running on first and 1) fine. But if it doesnt work now, try something else.

I dont think we should have been 6-0 either. But I got blasted for saying that at the time. And they should share the blame. But his job is to shoulder the criticisim. And thats what he will do until he takes us to 9-7 or better.

Dirk
01-05-2010, 09:28 AM
I am lazy so I didn't look up the stats, but has Dennison been as effective after Turner left?

The glory days of major rushing in Denver steadily declined after Turner left IMO.

I will wish him luck and nothing but the best if he leaves. Because he has gave his all for the Broncos and deserves to move up.

I never thought he should have been made HC of the Broncos though. Just didn't make sense to me.

broncofaninfla
01-05-2010, 09:30 AM
I am lazy so I didn't look up the stats, but has Dennison been as effective after Turner left?

The glory days of major rushing in Denver steadily declined after Turner left IMO.

I will wish him luck and nothing but the best if he leaves. Because he has gave his all for the Broncos and deserves to move up.

I never thought he should have been made HC of the Broncos though. Just didn't make sense to me.

Turner is still our RB's coach......

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 09:30 AM
Im not saying hillis should have got the ball. Im not one of the Hillis guys. Im also not a HC, I dont know what have worked, thats his job to figure out. All I know is it didnt work, over, and over, and over again.

If the goal is for it to eventually to work (running on first and 1) fine. But if it doesnt work now, try something else.

I dont think we should have been 6-0 either. But I got blasted for saying that at the time. And they should share the blame. But his job is to shoulder the criticisim. And thats what he will do until he takes us to 9-7 or better.

I understand your philosophy as bolded, but if a team gives up on something that basic, it doesnt send a good message. One would think that at some point it would work...if for no other reason than it HAS to work.

Dirk
01-05-2010, 09:33 AM
Turner is still our RB's coach......

Oops...I meant Gibbs. Sorry...my bad. (Yes it's my first My Bad so I can use it.)

dogfish
01-05-2010, 10:12 AM
No, but when the coach sits there and admits that mistakes get made and changes need to occur with everything INCLUDING HIMSELF...how the hell can someone make some blind hatred comment about how he just "points the finger" all the time.


they're just pointing the finger. . .



and i'm pretty sure i know which one clay is pointing. . . :lol:

claymore
01-05-2010, 10:16 AM
I understand your philosophy as bolded, but if a team gives up on something that basic, it doesnt send a good message. One would think that at some point it would work...if for no other reason than it HAS to work.
Just as an example... Jake couldnt throw from the pocket. Do we sacrifice winning because he should be able to throw from the pocket? Or do we put him in motion on boots and waggle's where he excells?


they're just pointing the finger. . .



and i'm pretty sure i know which one clay is pointing. . . :lol:
:D

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 10:48 AM
Just as an example... Jake couldnt throw from the pocket. Do we sacrifice winning because he should be able to throw from the pocket? Or do we put him in motion on boots and waggle's where he excells?


:D

I think there is a bit of a difference between a quarterback skillset and a lineman's ability to block the guy in front of him

claymore
01-05-2010, 11:06 AM
I think there is a bit of a difference between a quarterback skillset and a lineman's ability to block the guy in front of him

Of course. But our guys obviously couldnt do it the way he was asking them to do it.

Do you mask their inability to do it, or do you force them to fail at something because they "should" be able to do it.

Ravage!!!
01-05-2010, 11:13 AM
yep it is the ZBS nothing more or less.

and he learned it from Gibbs..

Hmmm..yet.... how many coaches learned how to coach from Parcells or Walsh.... or Beliccheck? Ooops...


I guess we can't like our coach because he only learned his coaching style from someone else????? :confused: I don't understand this line of thinking whatsoever.

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 11:16 AM
Of course. But our guys obviously couldnt do it the way he was asking them to do it.

Do you mask their inability to do it, or do you force them to fail at something because they "should" be able to do it.

He used ZBS and he use straight blocking schemes. What the **** else was he suppose to do? If your guys cant block in simple or complex schemes...maybe the problem isnt the scheme

claymore
01-05-2010, 11:19 AM
He used ZBS and he use straight blocking schemes. What the **** else was he suppose to do? If your guys cant block in simple or complex schemes...maybe the problem isnt the scheme

Change the playcalling. save your BS screens for 3rd and 1, not 3rd and 8.

Ravage!!!
01-05-2010, 11:21 AM
seems it was the scheme considering how well our OL worked last year.

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 11:48 AM
seems it was the scheme considering how well our OL worked last year.

Yeah because players and teams NEVER have bad years. If the line couldnt block in ANY scheme...how the hell can the scheme be blamed? I'd really like to hear an explanation for that.


Something other than blind hatred for McD, please

Ravage!!!
01-05-2010, 01:34 PM
Yeah because players and teams NEVER have bad years. If the line couldnt block in ANY scheme...how the hell can the scheme be blamed? I'd really like to hear an explanation for that.


Something other than blind hatred for McD, please

ITs not blind hatred, but its not a coincidence. What is it if it wasnt the change in scheme? I knew the offensive line wouldn't have the same caliber of play as they did last year because last year was EXTREMELY good, and rarely does that kind of production duplicate itself. BUT... there is a big difference from dropping down and completely failing. Last offseason everyone knew this OL was one of the VERY best in the NFL, and one of the strongest units on this team. NOW.. it needs to be completelyl over-hauled and changed.... yet I can't say because its the change in scheme??? Seriously??? The ONLY ONLY ONLY way you can't say its the scheme is if you are trying SOOOOOOOOOOOO friggin hard to find SOMETHING else OTHER than the scheme, and trying SOOOOO hard to find a way to defend McDaniels (as per your "something else other than BLIND hate) (trust me, its not blind).

The SCHEME and the QB are the two things that changed that effected this OL's performance. Yes, there were injuries to the tackle...but those are the positions people now complaining about. The scheme is the coach, and the QB is the guy that the coach chose. YES, I think Orton is a big reason this OL struggled.... but its obviously the scheme as well.

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 04:32 PM
My opinion, I think Casey is done, Hamilton is done and Harris was hurt. It's tough when you only get consistent play from 2 linemen and even that is stretching it, but they also had to cover alot of holes. With a healthy and revamped line, I see more success next season from the line REGARDLESS of the scheme

G_Money
01-05-2010, 05:06 PM
Yeah, I think Casey and Ben are done too. We don't have an in-house replacement for either. Hochstein is a joke and we fired Lichtensteiger (who admittedly would probably struggle at center in the new blocking scheme too).

As long as we don't revamp with rejects we should be better. I'm actually very curious to see who we get for OL coach with Dennison and the primarily-ZBS scheme likely going away.

~G

dogfish
01-05-2010, 05:34 PM
NOW.. it needs to be completelyl over-hauled and changed....


i don't know that replacing an old as dirt center and a guard whose performance has been on the decline for several years now really qualifies as "completely overhauling and changing". . . be real, wiegmann was never intended as more than a short-term fix, and hamilton has been getting pushed around for several years. . . wiegmann is 36 and has one year left on his contract, and hamilton is over thirty and his contract is up-- he wasn't coming back even if he didn't suck this year. . .

i agree wholeheartedly that mcdaniels should have used more ZBS this year and gotten more creative with his play calling, but i don't see how you can blame him for a 36-year-old center hitting the end of the road. . . maybe if he hadn't had a more immediate need to replace almost the entire defensive roster if we wanted to field a competitive unit, he could have brought in more young OL talent to prepare, but you only get so many draft picks and so many free agent dollars to work with. . .

if seth olsen can compete for a spot this year, it actually shouldn't be all that difficult a patch-- we still have an excellent young pair of tackles to work with, which is the heavy lifting on the line, along with a quality young OG if we retain kupes. . .

elsid13
01-05-2010, 05:53 PM
i don't know that replacing an old as dirt center and a guard whose performance has been on the decline for several years now really qualifies as "completely overhauling and changing". . . be real, wiegmann was never intended as more than a short-term fix, and hamilton has been getting pushed around for several years. . . wiegmann is 36 and has one year left on his contract, and hamilton is over thirty and his contract is up-- he wasn't coming back even if he didn't suck this year. . .

i agree wholeheartedly that mcdaniels should have used more ZBS this year and gotten more creative with his play calling, but i don't see how you can blame him for a 36-year-old center hitting the end of the road. . . maybe if he hadn't had a more immediate need to replace almost the entire defensive roster if we wanted to field a competitive unit, he could have brought in more young OL talent to prepare, but you only get so many draft picks and so many free agent dollars to work with. . .

if seth olsen can compete for a spot this year, it actually shouldn't be all that difficult a patch-- we still have an excellent young pair of tackles to work with, which is the heavy lifting on the line, along with a quality young OG if we retain kupes. . .

It not like the defense got a lot of high priced FA. There were resource there to be spent on the line. Maybe instead of bringing in Jordon, J.J. Arrington and new long snapper, McDaniels could have brought in little more depth for the line, especial with his deserve to change from a successful rushing attach for NE piss poor one.

dogfish
01-05-2010, 06:04 PM
It not like the defense got a lot of high priced FA. There were resource there to be spent on the line. Maybe instead of bringing in Jordon, J.J. Arrington and new long snapper, McDaniels could have brought in little more depth for the line, especial with his deserve to change from a successful rushing attach for NE piss poor one.

this is true, but it's really easy to say with the benefit of hindsight. . . remember, he didn't have a training camp to eveluate what he already had on the roster before going into free agency or the draft. . . maybe he thought hamilton could hold up another year-- maybe he thought lichtensteiger could win a roster spot. . . he did bring in hochstein and seth olsen, but unfortunately hochstein didn't work out all that well, and i'm guessing he didn't want to throw the rookie in while we were fighting for a playoff spot. . .

besides, looking over a list of last year's available free agents, i see very little quality that was available on the interior OL beyond guys who were re-signed by their own teams. . . should we have paid big money to stacy andrews when we had a good line coming back from the previous year and a dozen more immediate needs elsewhere?

elsid13
01-05-2010, 06:24 PM
this is true, but it's really easy to say with the benefit of hindsight. . . remember, he didn't have a training camp to eveluate what he already had on the roster before going into free agency or the draft. . . maybe he thought hamilton could hold up another year-- maybe he thought lichtensteiger could win a roster spot. . . he did bring in hochstein and seth olsen, but unfortunately hochstein didn't work out all that well, and i'm guessing he didn't want to throw the rookie in while we were fighting for a playoff spot. . .

besides, looking over a list of last year's available free agents, i see very little quality that was available on the interior OL beyond guys who were re-signed by their own teams. . . should we have paid big money to stacy andrews when we had a good line coming back from the previous year and a dozen more immediate needs elsewhere?

I understand that injuries happen and easy to second guess now. But for a guy that came in proclaiming that he really watched all the broncos game film,clearly understood what the problems were on the team, knew how use the talent on the team and had system that would cure it, McDaniels and Xanders should get a little more blame for their personnel evaluation and player management. I am still annoyed that they only had 100 names on the draft board and didn't take the opportunity to get depth in very deep offense line draft.

Dean
01-05-2010, 06:29 PM
Why not call plays that fit our strengths?


http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol


RUN BLOCKING PASS PROTECTION
Team Adj. Line
Yards RB
Yards Power
Success Power
Rank Stuffed Stuffed
Rank 2nd Level
Yards 2nd Level
Rank Open Field
Yards Open Field
Rank Team Rank Sacks Adjusted
Sack Rate
1 MIA 4.50 4.44 79% 2 14% 1 1.00 28 0.63 22 IND 1 13 3.1%
2 NO 4.48 4.62 69% 7 17% 9 1.27 8 0.93 9 NE 2 18 3.6%
3 DAL 4.47 4.99 58% 26 17% 7 1.36 3 1.16 5 TEN 3 15 3.7%
4 BAL 4.42 4.97 68% 9 17% 8 1.29 6 1.26 3 NO 4 21 4.2%
5 NE 4.39 4.29 68% 10 14% 2 1.22 11 0.59 26 SD 5 26 4.5%
6 DEN 4.30 4.27 58% 27 20% 20 1.29 5 0.61 24 ATL 6 27 4.6%
7 PHI 4.30 4.25 63% 19 18% 11 1.05 25 0.61 25 ARI 7 26 5.2%
8 GB 4.29 4.17 73% 3 16% 4 1.04 26 0.73 17 HOU 8 26 5.2%
9 NYJ 4.28 4.48 70% 6 16% 3 1.11 20 0.88 12 NYG 9 32 5.3%
10 ATL 4.26 4.36 63% 17 18% 12 1.12 17 0.89 10 CIN 10 29 5.6%
11 JAC 4.25 4.55 69% 8 19% 14 1.12 18 1.07 6 TB 11 33 5.7%
12 BUF 4.19 4.29 50% 31 17% 10 1.15 16 0.63 21 DEN 12 34 5.9%
13 NYG 4.15 4.19 60% 20 19% 15 1.24 10 0.68 19 CHI 13 35 5.9%
14 PIT 4.13 4.32 72% 5 20% 19 1.18 15 0.87 13 MIN 14 34 6.0%
15 HOU 4.10 3.73 60% 21 22% 26 1.12 19 0.41 31 CLE 15 30 6.1%
16 ARI 4.09 4.27 56% 28 22% 29 1.36 2 0.81 14 DAL 16 34 6.2%
RUN BLOCKING PASS PROTECTION
Team Adj. Line
Yards RB
Yards Power
Success Power
Rank Stuffed Stuffed
Rank 2nd Level
Yards 2nd Level
Rank Open Field
Yards Open Field
Rank Team Rank Sacks Adjusted
Sack Rate
17 CAR 4.03 4.93 67% 11 22% 23 1.40 1 1.31 2 CAR 17 33 6.5%
18 SD 4.02 3.54 46% 32 16% 6 0.95 31 0.40 32 MIA 18 34 6.6%
19 CHI 4.02 4.04 58% 25 19% 16 0.95 30 0.81 15 BAL 19 37 6.6%
20 MIN 4.01 4.18 59% 23 23% 31 1.18 14 0.94 8 PHI 20 40 6.6%
21 TEN 4.01 5.29 64% 15 22% 28 1.28 7 1.77 1 SEA 21 41 7.0%
22 CLE 4.01 3.93 65% 14 18% 13 1.10 22 0.50 30 DET 22 43 7.0%
23 OAK 3.97 4.02 72% 4 16% 5 1.03 27 0.63 20 NYJ 23 30 7.7%
24 CIN 3.97 4.14 79% 1 19% 17 1.20 12 0.74 16 STL 24 44 7.7%
25 IND 3.93 3.80 66% 12 22% 27 1.11 21 0.51 29 KC 25 46 7.8%
26 WAS 3.92 3.72 59% 24 19% 18 0.99 29 0.54 28 SF 26 40 8.1%
27 SEA 3.91 4.15 56% 29 22% 24 1.19 13 0.72 18 WAS 27 46 8.5%
28 STL 3.86 4.38 56% 30 22% 25 1.34 4 0.88 11 JAC 28 44 8.5%
29 DET 3.64 3.72 59% 22 23% 30 1.07 23 0.56 27 PIT 29 50 8.5%
30 KC 3.60 4.34 63% 18 21% 22 1.24 9 0.97 7 GB 30 51 8.6%
31 TB 3.58 3.80 65% 13 21% 21 1.06 24 0.62 23 OAK 31 49 9.4%
32 SF 3.50 4.22 63% 16 24% 32 0.92 32 1.25 4 BUF 32 46 9.9%
x NFL x 4.29 64% x 19% x 1.16 x 0.82 x NFL x 35 6.4%

The second table lists each team's Adjusted Line Yards in each direction listed in official NFL play-by-play, along with rank among the 32 teams. Only five directions are listed because research so far shows no statistically significant difference between how well a team performs on runs listed middle, left guard, and right guard.

LEFT END LEFT TACKLE MID/GUARD RIGHT TACKLE RIGHT END
TEAM ALY Rank ALY Rank ALY Rank ALY Rank ALY Rank
1 MIA 4.99 7 3.46 31 4.59 3 4.34 8 4.11 18
2 NO 3.67 24 4.17 14 4.65 2 4.63 4 4.86 3
3 DAL 5.21 3 5.03 4 4.19 13 4.16 15 4.80 6
4 BAL 4.22 17 4.15 15 4.46 5 3.98 18 5.40 1
5 NE 4.96 9 4.21 13 4.55 4 3.84 23 3.63 25
6 DEN 4.96 8 3.47 30 4.41 6 3.38 28 5.06 2
7 PHI 4.36 15 5.17 3 4.07 18 4.26 10 4.23 15
8 GB 2.83 30 3.76 24 4.71 1 4.26 12 4.86 4
9 NYJ 3.05 29 4.06 17 4.21 12 5.06 1 3.75 23
10 ATL 5.18 5 3.84 21 4.12 15 3.96 19 4.62 10
11 JAC 5.66 1 4.53 8 4.06 19 3.92 21 4.45 11
12 BUF 3.27 26 4.21 12 4.39 7 3.22 30 4.77 7
13 NYG 4.11 19 4.05 18 4.04 21 4.56 6 4.19 17
14 PIT 4.58 14 4.30 11 4.08 17 3.72 25 4.72 8
15 HOU 3.62 25 3.56 28 4.24 11 4.16 14 4.64 9
16 ARI 5.47 2 3.80 22 3.94 24 4.27 9 3.72 24
LEFT END LEFT TACKLE MID/GUARD RIGHT TACKLE RIGHT END
TEAM ALY Rank ALY Rank ALY Rank ALY Rank ALY Rank
17 CAR 4.05 21 4.92 5 3.98 22 3.57 27 3.53 26
18 SD 3.20 27 4.34 10 3.85 25 4.79 2 4.41 12
19 CHI 4.93 10 3.78 23 4.05 20 3.37 29 3.93 21
20 MIN 3.83 22 4.60 7 4.10 16 3.67 26 3.83 22
21 TEN 4.11 20 3.55 29 3.71 27 4.35 7 4.82 5
22 CLE 5.21 4 3.72 26 3.97 23 4.09 17 2.73 29
23 OAK 4.81 11 3.74 25 3.72 26 4.12 16 4.27 14
24 CIN 3.79 23 4.46 9 4.26 10 3.82 24 2.79 28
25 IND 2.63 31 3.96 19 4.39 8 3.92 20 3.94 20
26 WAS 3.19 28 3.95 20 4.30 9 4.60 5 3.13 27
27 SEA 1.26 32 4.10 16 4.16 14 4.22 13 4.29 13
28 STL 4.70 12 5.27 2 3.70 28 3.88 22 2.67 30
29 DET 5.18 6 3.56 27 3.28 31 4.71 3 2.13 32
30 KC 4.30 16 5.66 1 3.34 30 1.92 32 4.19 16
31 TB 4.18 18 4.86 6 3.17 32 4.26 11 2.42 31
32 SF 4.58 13 2.63 32 3.51 29 3.22 31 4.02 19
x NFL 4.20 x 4.14 x 4.08 x 4.08 x 4.05 x

The third table lists how often each team runs in each direction. Numbers may not add up to 100% due to carries listed without direction.

Team RB
Carries LEFT
END LEFT
TACKLE MID/
GUARD RIGHT
TACKLE RIGHT
END
1 NYJ 533 6% 10% 52% 23% 9%
2 CAR 491 10% 15% 52% 14% 9%
3 MIA 455 14% 7% 60% 11% 9%
4 CIN 452 10% 19% 40% 17% 14%
5 NO 431 11% 16% 51% 14% 8%
6 TEN 431 15% 13% 42% 16% 14%
7 MIN 426 13% 12% 51% 11% 13%
8 BAL 419 11% 13% 55% 12% 9%
9 NE 418 9% 15% 58% 11% 6%
10 NYG 413 13% 14% 40% 17% 15%
11 CLE 408 7% 14% 63% 14% 2%
12 ATL 405 13% 13% 53% 10% 11%
13 DEN 405 11% 13% 51% 13% 13%
14 DAL 394 11% 15% 52% 13% 9%
15 SD 385 11% 9% 57% 15% 9%
16 KC 379 16% 8% 50% 12% 14%
Team RB
Carries LEFT
END LEFT
TACKLE MID/
GUARD RIGHT
TACKLE RIGHT
END
17 STL 378 5% 11% 50% 24% 10%
18 PIT 377 7% 11% 54% 19% 10%
19 GB 374 11% 20% 40% 14% 17%
20 BUF 367 7% 11% 61% 11% 9%
21 HOU 365 7% 19% 45% 19% 10%
22 OAK 360 11% 16% 44% 20% 9%
23 JAC 355 9% 5% 76% 4% 7%
24 DET 353 14% 18% 33% 17% 18%
25 SEA 349 9% 15% 43% 22% 11%
26 TB 343 9% 11% 59% 16% 6%
27 IND 338 13% 19% 35% 16% 17%
28 WAS 338 18% 17% 38% 14% 14%
29 ARI 330 14% 14% 38% 22% 12%
30 SF 329 5% 7% 71% 12% 6%
31 CHI 327 11% 12% 54% 12% 11%
32 PHI 301 14% 13% 46% 10% 17%
x NFL x 11% 13% 50% 15% 11%
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS
Innovative Statistics

Not many going to right end and left end is there? If you answer is that Moreno is too slow, again, that is by choice.

Ravage!!!
01-05-2010, 07:04 PM
i don't know that replacing an old as dirt center and a guard whose performance has been on the decline for several years now really qualifies as "completely overhauling and changing". . . be real, wiegmann was never intended as more than a short-term fix, and hamilton has been getting pushed around for several years. . . wiegmann is 36 and has one year left on his contract, and hamilton is over thirty and his contract is up-- he wasn't coming back even if he didn't suck this year. . .

i agree wholeheartedly that mcdaniels should have used more ZBS this year and gotten more creative with his play calling, but i don't see how you can blame him for a 36-year-old center hitting the end of the road. . . maybe if he hadn't had a more immediate need to replace almost the entire defensive roster if we wanted to field a competitive unit, he could have brought in more young OL talent to prepare, but you only get so many draft picks and so many free agent dollars to work with. . .

if seth olsen can compete for a spot this year, it actually shouldn't be all that difficult a patch-- we still have an excellent young pair of tackles to work with, which is the heavy lifting on the line, along with a quality young OG if we retain kupes. . .

Seems I'm hearing that the interior of the line is what needs to go. Obviously Clady and Harris don't seem to be a problem...yet. We'll see how Harris holds out in the new system.

yes.. Weigman was intended to be the short term answer when brought in by Shanahan....yet we didn't seem to make ANY adjustments to the OL during the entire offseason. If we didn't worry about getting the high dollar LS, we could have brought some bigger/younger body in for wiegman... or a guard? I don't know. I'm just saying, that if its not the system that was brought in, what else made a VERY strong unit on our team to one of the very worst parts of our team in a single year? I know I'm not allowed to say the coaching, for I was told that would be "blind hatred for McD" instead of obvious observation.

elsid13
01-05-2010, 07:31 PM
Seems I'm hearing that the interior of the line is what needs to go. Obviously Clady and Harris don't seem to be a problem...yet. We'll see how Harris holds out in the new system.

yes.. Weigman was intended to be the short term answer when brought in by Shanahan....yet we didn't seem to make ANY adjustments to the OL during the entire offseason. If we didn't worry about getting the high dollar LS, we could have brought some bigger/younger body in for wiegman... or a guard? I don't know. I'm just saying, that if its not the system that was brought in, what else made a VERY strong unit on our team to one of the very worst parts of our team in a single year? I know I'm not allowed to say the coaching, for I was told that would be "blind hatred for McD" instead of obvious observation.

It was three things

1. Harris and Hamilton getting hurt
2. The system was overly complex and the line was thinking to much instead of moving as unit
3. Defenses putting 8 or 9 men in the box and attacking down because they weren't worried about the cut back, play action or deep pass.

dogfish
01-05-2010, 08:21 PM
Seems I'm hearing that the interior of the line is what needs to go. Obviously Clady and Harris don't seem to be a problem...yet. We'll see how Harris holds out in the new system.

yes.. Weigman was intended to be the short term answer when brought in by Shanahan....yet we didn't seem to make ANY adjustments to the OL during the entire offseason. If we didn't worry about getting the high dollar LS, we could have brought some bigger/younger body in for wiegman... or a guard? I don't know. I'm just saying, that if its not the system that was brought in, what else made a VERY strong unit on our team to one of the very worst parts of our team in a single year? I know I'm not allowed to say the coaching, for I was told that would be "blind hatred for McD" instead of obvious observation.

**** it, i give up-- logical answers like guys getting hurt or getting old just aren't what you want to hear. . . i guess the obvious answer is their play fell off because josh mcdaniels has hooves and a pointy tail and smells like brimstone. . .


there, now the truth's out and we can all be happy. . .

Dean
01-05-2010, 09:04 PM
**** it, i give up-- logical answers like guys getting hurt or getting old just aren't what you want to hear. . . i guess the obvious answer is their play fell off because josh mcdaniels has hooves and a pointy tail and smells like brimstone. . .


there, now the truth's out and we can all be happy. . .

Yes getting old matters but you are overlooking the fact that we ran the ball there 51% of the running plays.

At right end and left end where we were picking up 4.96 and 5+ yard per carry we ran only 11% of our run plays at each position.

It we would have run outside more, to our strengths, IMO 1) we would have gained more yardage and 2) we would have lessened the pressure on our weak LG and C.

topscribe
01-05-2010, 09:16 PM
Why not call plays that fit our strengths?


http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol



Not many going to right end and left end is there? If you answer is that Moreno is too slow, again, that is by choice.

Hmmm . . . if Moreno is too slow, I wonder what business TD had running wide?
Moreno has faster times than did TD. And it seems TD was successful wherever
he ran.

-----

arapaho2
01-05-2010, 09:32 PM
He used ZBS and he use straight blocking schemes. What the **** else was he suppose to do? If your guys cant block in simple or complex schemes...maybe the problem isnt the scheme


and yet those same five guys were one of the highest rated olines in the league...last year

but a new coach...basicaly dropping the zbs...new passing plays...new IMMOBILE QB...and a couple of the highest drafted rbs we've seen in years...have nothing to do with the decline?

its all the line just suddenly sucks...i dont follow the logic:coffee:

Dean
01-05-2010, 09:49 PM
Hmmm . . . if Moreno is too slow, I wonder what business TD had running wide?
Moreno has faster times than did TD. And it seems TD was successful wherever
he ran.

-----

I am not saying that Moreno is to slow. I am saying it was a matter of choice by the man making the offensive calls that there were viable options available that were not used. I assumed that posters might say that we couldn't run outside due to Moreno's speed. My counter was that the offense had options they did not use.

We pounded the ball 51% of the running plays at our weakest point. IMO that thinking needs to be evaluated.

dogfish
01-05-2010, 11:24 PM
Yes getting old matters but you are overlooking the fact that we ran the ball there 51% of the running plays.

At right end and left end where we were picking up 4.96 and 5+ yard per carry we ran only 11% of our run plays at each position.

It we would have run outside more, to our strengths, IMO 1) we would have gained more yardage and 2) we would have lessened the pressure on our weak LG and C.


I am not saying that Moreno is to slow. I am saying it was a matter of choice by the man making the offensive calls that there were viable options available that were not used. I assumed that posters might say that we couldn't run outside due to Moreno's speed. My counter was that the offense had options they did not use.

We pounded the ball 51% of the running plays at our weakest point. IMO that thinking needs to be evaluated.


i agree. . . i did my share of complaining about the play calling during the season-- it was stale and it certainly didn't help things. . . i've never suggested that mcdaniels did a perfect job and has no faults-- far from it. . . i don't know that there's much he could have done in terms of play calling to improve the interior pass protection, though-- we were already relying heavily on a short passing game that gets the ball out of the QB's hands-- so much so that we became predictable-- and it's not like you can do much in terms of bootlegs and moving pockets with a leadfooted QB. . .

i guess i'm just tired of the torches and pitchforks mentality (not directed at you). . . i have no problem at all with people pointing out things the coach did wrong, and there were a number of them-- but i think a lot of the discussion around here recently isn't rational analysis, but plain old scapegoating. . . JMO. . .