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titan
01-04-2010, 06:42 PM
Two quotes from McD:

"We feel a lot better about our scouting this year than we did last year. We've already set up our initial board"

McD won't rule out drafting any position with that high 1st round pick from Chi: "Whoever the best player is ... then we would do it."

Both quotes are encouraging. The first quote is an admission that the draft evaluation process was lacking last year (too bad we have less picks this year than last). The second quote I have always liked about McD: TAKE THE BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE! (regardless of position). I've seen so many wasted Bronco draft picks in the past drafting on need rather than the best player.

Ravage!!!
01-04-2010, 06:46 PM
Thats not necessarily what he's saying. He won't take the best player available if that player is a LT. He wont take that player if its a QB. He won't take that player if its a RB.

He'll take the best available player for a position they need to upgrade (although we very much need to upgrade the QB position). You HAVE to draft according to need. YOu can't simply take the best player on the board simply because he's your best ranking player. He has to fit a need that isn't already filled.

weazel
01-04-2010, 06:50 PM
The reason I like teams taking the best overall player rather than the most needed, is you can draft a better overall player and trade for needs. I'm not saying it will work out every time, but too often you reach for what you need and are wasting the pick at where you are at, ala Shanny

Ravage!!!
01-04-2010, 06:55 PM
Every team drafts for needs. There just aren't that many trades in the NFL to simply 'trade for need.' Unless you mean pick up FA's. Teams HAVE to draft for need. You won't see the Colts using a first, second, third, or fourth round pick on a QB. Why? Because they don't NEED one. Even if the best player on the board is a QB.

YOu won't see the STeelers doing this either. You won't see the Patriots doing this either. Three of the best drafting teams in the NFL draft positions of need rather than just "best player available." If that position is filled with a quality player, why draft one?

titan
01-04-2010, 07:01 PM
The reason I like teams taking the best overall player rather than the most needed, is you can draft a better overall player and trade for needs. I'm not saying it will work out every time, but too often you reach for what you need and are wasting the pick at where you are at, ala Shanny

Exactly. Remember in 2002 Shanahan wanted a receiver in round 1 so he took Ashley Lelie. Ashley is out of the league now. Ed Reed, a safety picked 5 slots after Reed, has been to 6 pro bowls. So if Reed is the best player on the Broncos board, but the Broncos don't need a safety, they take an inferior player in a position of need? Multiple drafts like this is what got Shanahan fired.

Now if you have two players very close in the ratings, then I can see taking the one that fits the team need better.

Another example from Bronco history: in the 1974 draft the Broncos took Randy Gradashar with their #1 pick. The late pro football writer Joel Buchsbaum used to tell this story: in round 2 when the Broncos pick came up the scouting staff had Jack Lambert at the top of their list. John Ralston said "we already have our middle linebacker" so he took defensive lineman Carl Wafer with the round 2 pick. Four picks later the Steelers drafted Jack Lambert. Wafer never did anything, Lambert is in the Hall of Fame.

Could you imagine what the Orange Crush would have been like with both Gradashar and Lambert??? You can't go wrong drafting the best player available.

Superchop 7
01-04-2010, 07:04 PM
For instance.......we won't have a need for a "midget" DB.

Ravage!!!
01-04-2010, 07:04 PM
How many other teams passed on Ed Reed?

Ziggy
01-04-2010, 07:22 PM
I believe that the Broncos will take a QB if he is the BPA. The great teams take the BPA, and that's why they stay competitive year after year. A couple of years ago the Steelers took Mendenhall because he was the BPA. Many of the so-called experts bashed them for it, since they didn't need a RB. Now he looks to be a solid starter for them, and may be for the next decade. That's just one example of many. Teams that take the BPA regardless of position always end up in better shape in the long run.

Ziggy
01-04-2010, 07:23 PM
For instance.......we won't have a need for a "midget" DB.

Do you have an incessant need to come into every thread and spew crap, or is your life just that miserable?

Ravage!!!
01-04-2010, 07:27 PM
Not long ago, the Chiefs took Larry Johnson when they still had a very healthy Holmes on the team, because Holmes was up for contract negotiations. The Chiefs took the BPA.

I'm just sayin'... the BPA doesn't hold true. You can't just ake the BPA despite having a quality player on the team at the very position you are drafting. Who then sits? How do ou justify spending that kind of money at ONE position as you sit at 8-8? We won't draft another RB at 10. We won't draft another LT at 10. McDaniels won't draft a QB with 10, because we need OL, DTs, NTs, LBs, corners, WRs, and safeties more.

So its the BPA at one of those positions.

titan
01-04-2010, 07:44 PM
From http://gazettebroncos.freedomblogging.com/2010/01/04/new-and-improved-draft-preparation-in-denver/2207/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

New and improved draft preparation in Denver
January 4th, 2010, 7:29 pm

Without criticizing the Broncos' draft class, saying most of the rookies contributed in some way, Broncos coach Josh McDaniels said the entire pre-draft process will change in 2010.

"This year's draft should be totally different for us," McDaniels said.

Last year, the Broncos fired two key members of their front office, Jim and Jeff Goodman, in mid-February. That was a major change, just before the scouting combine.
"We changed some of the things we were looking for in indivudual players, whether it was a bigger player here or a faster player there," McDaniels said.

McDaniels said scouts and the front office are now well versed in what the team is looking for. An initial draft board has already been set up based on what they saw during the college season. Perhaps that will mean better immediate results for the 2010 draft class.

"We'll have an entire offseason where we're not trying to fill staff positions and do so many things to the roster, hopefully, that we did last year," McDaniels said. "We should have a chance to have a solid four months getting ready for the draft."

Broncolingus
01-04-2010, 08:36 PM
Yeah, McD, that's all great...

Interior line (both sides), interior line, interior line...

Priority 2 thru whatever is up for debate...

T.K.O.
01-04-2010, 09:07 PM
if we do get draft picks for marshall and scheff we should be stocked well enough to make some serious noise in the 1st and 2nd rounds. i like the diamond in the rough guys and the 5th and 6th round guys who turn out great,but they are few and far between i really think we need a superstud pass rusher and beef up the oline a bit...fields played better than expected but to make mcD's system work we need a monster nt.
also it would appear we will be in the market for wr's i like the idea of some 6'3" to 6'6" speedy guys who can give us the ability to stretch the field.
brandon has been great for YAC and he is a solid reciever but i still dont think he has the speed to stretch the field the way guys like fitz and moss do

rcsodak
01-04-2010, 09:42 PM
Thats not necessarily what he's saying. He won't take the best player available if that player is a LT. He wont take that player if its a QB. He won't take that player if its a RB.

He'll take the best available player for a position they need to upgrade (although we very much need to upgrade the QB position). You HAVE to draft according to need. YOu can't simply take the best player on the board simply because he's your best ranking player. He has to fit a need that isn't already filled.

Sayeth the raven, nevermore.

:coffee:

dogfish
01-04-2010, 11:15 PM
From http://gazettebroncos.freedomblogging.com/2010/01/04/new-and-improved-draft-preparation-in-denver/2207/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

New and improved draft preparation in Denver
January 4th, 2010, 7:29 pm

Without criticizing the Broncos' draft class, saying most of the rookies contributed in some way, Broncos coach Josh McDaniels said the entire pre-draft process will change in 2010.

"This year's draft should be totally different for us," McDaniels said.

Last year, the Broncos fired two key members of their front office, Jim and Jeff Goodman, in mid-February. That was a major change, just before the scouting combine.
"We changed some of the things we were looking for in indivudual players, whether it was a bigger player here or a faster player there," McDaniels said.

McDaniels said scouts and the front office are now well versed in what the team is looking for. An initial draft board has already been set up based on what they saw during the college season. Perhaps that will mean better immediate results for the 2010 draft class.

"We'll have an entire offseason where we're not trying to fill staff positions and do so many things to the roster, hopefully, that we did last year," McDaniels said. "We should have a chance to have a solid four months getting ready for the draft."

music to my ears!

i don't dislike any of the players we drafted last year, but i was one of the ones bitching the loudest about the way we approached it, all the value we gave up to keep trading up, and most particularly the hundred guys on the draft board when you should have at least twice that. . .

i still think we'll get some value out of last year's class, even if they didn't show all that much this year, but i'm looking forward to seeing what we can accomplish with full and proper preparation and another solid slate of picks. . .

bcbronc
01-04-2010, 11:32 PM
Thats not necessarily what he's saying. He won't take the best player available if that player is a LT. He wont take that player if its a QB. He won't take that player if its a RB.

He'll take the best available player for a position they need to upgrade (although we very much need to upgrade the QB position). You HAVE to draft according to need. YOu can't simply take the best player on the board simply because he's your best ranking player. He has to fit a need that isn't already filled.

I agree to a degree (although I can see a QB and even a LT in the 1st--move Harris to OG if that's the case). you certainly draft BPA, but how you decide who is the BPA is partially according to need.

I mean how do you decide which is "best" between a "solid starter" at MLB, OG, or S, especially as you get into the later rounds? Generally you'll give guys a "grade" but need breaks the tie. If you have a S, a WR, and a LB all with a 3rd round grade, and you're in the 4th round, you go with need.

but that's a lot different than saying "we are going to fill our need for a XX in the first round, no matter who is on the board".

so yeah, BPA but "need" factors into the rating process.

dogfish
01-04-2010, 11:38 PM
I agree to a degree (although I can see a QB and even a LT in the 1st--move Harris to OG if that's the case). you certainly draft BPA, but how you decide who is the BPA is partially according to need.

I mean how do you decide which is "best" between a "solid starter" at MLB, OG, or S, especially as you get into the later rounds? Generally you'll give guys a "grade" but need breaks the tie. If you have a S, a WR, and a LB all with a 3rd round grade, and you're in the 4th round, you go with need.

but that's a lot different than saying "we are going to fill our need for a XX in the first round, no matter who is on the board".

so yeah, BPA but "need" factors into the rating process.


it's a balancing act between need and who you think is the best player. . .

obviously the colts aren't going to draft a QB in the first, but even the best teams have more than one need-- and the best drafters draft with an eye towards the future as well as filling immediate holes. . . interior OL is our most pressing need, but who takes a guard or center with a top ten/top eleven pick? if we think jared odrick is the next brett keisel and c.j. spiller is the next chris johnson, we damn well better take spiller regardless of getting moreno last year! drafting purely for need is what got sam bowie taken over michael jordan. . . :lol:

Lonestar
01-04-2010, 11:51 PM
if last years scouts were asked to look for light in the ass linemen and really fast LB that play 3-4 as well as ZBS style RB's and since there was NO need for a QB we were set for TE's..

and since mike never saw a defensive player he liked I can see WHY hey only had a hundred men on their draft board added to the fact they, managed to get themselves fired in a power struggle..

If the bates were looking for X and Josh wanted team type players..

well I think overall that last years draftees will for the most part see more playing time this coming year.. and that we will be looking for team players instead of individual ME types.. and I still think there will be less players on teh board than there has been in the past..

Josh stated that he was looking for his type of players and that he would not bring someone in to TC that he did not think could make the team..

weazel
01-05-2010, 12:12 AM
For instance.......we won't have a need for a "midget" DB.

:lol: that made me laugh

Elevation inc
01-05-2010, 04:57 AM
How many other teams passed on Ed Reed?

and all 31 regret that.....

WARHORSE
01-05-2010, 05:11 AM
it's a balancing act between need and who you think is the best player. . .

obviously the colts aren't going to draft a QB in the first, but even the best teams have more than one need-- and the best drafters draft with an eye towards the future as well as filling immediate holes. . . interior OL is our most pressing need, but who takes a guard or center with a top ten/top eleven pick? if we think jared odrick is the next brett keisel and c.j. spiller is the next chris johnson, we damn well better take spiller regardless of getting moreno last year! drafting purely for need is what got sam bowie taken over michael jordan. . . :lol:

Im on board with picking Spiller. Big time. Knowshon or NOshon.

But that would be if the top defensive players were gone, as well as Clausen and Bradford.

My board looks like this:

Suh
Berry
McCoy
Clausen
Bradford
Spiller

Spiller is a GAMEBREAKER.:salute:

WARHORSE
01-05-2010, 05:32 AM
Trade the 10th pick in the draft with Marshall to St. Louis for their number one pick............then pick Suh.

Dirk
01-05-2010, 06:34 AM
Trade the 10th pick in the draft with Marshall to St. Louis for their number one pick............then pick Suh.

I would love to get Suh...but that is way too much. :listen:

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 08:22 AM
Im on board with picking Spiller. Big time. Knowshon or NOshon.

But that would be if the top defensive players were gone, as well as Clausen and Bradford.

My board looks like this:

Suh
Berry
McCoy
Clausen
Bradford
Spiller

Spiller is a GAMEBREAKER.:salute:

You really have a special teams/3rd down back ranked 6th on your draft board?

claymore
01-05-2010, 08:27 AM
I would love to get Suh...but that is way too much. :listen:

I dont think its any more of a stretch than Picking Alphonso Smith #14 overall.

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 08:37 AM
I cant figure out which is worse. People that STILL like to bring up Cutler's name or people that cant stop whining about a draft pick that hasnt been given much of a chance to prove anything yet.

claymore
01-05-2010, 08:52 AM
I cant figure out which is worse. People that STILL like to bring up Cutler's name or people that cant stop whining about a draft pick that hasnt been given much of a chance to prove anything yet.

Probably the Cutler folks. Cause he has nothing to do with this team. This will get worse, before it gets better.

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 09:00 AM
Probably the Cutler folks. Cause he has nothing to do with this team. This will get worse, before it gets better.

Define "this".

You talking about Smith? I'm sure you're right. What I've learned about people on this board is that if they despise something, they will NEVER let it go. McDaniels could coach the team to the playoffs next year and people will still find a way to bash him for something.

Same with Smith. He could pick off 5 passes in the first 3 games, but let him get his feet tangled and give up a TD pass and people will beat that horse beyond death.

People back themselves into corners all the time here, so yeah...I wont be shocked if Smith gets berated for everything he does...regardless of any success.

Dirk
01-05-2010, 09:32 AM
I dont think its any more of a stretch than Picking Alphonso Smith #14 overall.

I can at least agree with you on this for the performance this year.

I will however give him another year to prove himself. The kid is a baller, but hasn't lived up to the first round pick for him.

claymore
01-05-2010, 09:34 AM
Define "this".

You talking about Smith? I'm sure you're right. What I've learned about people on this board is that if they despise something, they will NEVER let it go. McDaniels could coach the team to the playoffs next year and people will still find a way to bash him for something.

Same with Smith. He could pick off 5 passes in the first 3 games, but let him get his feet tangled and give up a TD pass and people will beat that horse beyond death.

People back themselves into corners all the time here, so yeah...I wont be shocked if Smith gets berated for everything he does...regardless of any success.

This = Smith pick

90% of the reason I hate the pick so much, is because he can never live up to it. Any successful player that gets drafted after the 14th pick this year will always get compared to smith.

I hate the pick because JMCD took a very risky thing and made it far more risky and expensive.

He said himself he trusts this scout department more than last year, but he still went with his hard on and mortgaged this years pick.

A timeline needs to be set up with all of MCD's weird decisions.

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 09:41 AM
This = Smith pick

90% of the reason I hate the pick so much, is because he can never live up to it. Any successful player that gets drafted after the 14th pick this year will always get compared to smith.

I hate the pick because JMCD took a very risky thing and made it far more risky and expensive.

He said himself he trusts this scout department more than last year, but he still went with his hard on and mortgaged this years pick.

A timeline needs to be set up with all of MCD's weird decisions.

Feel free to do that with any other coach in history while you're at it.

claymore
01-05-2010, 10:11 AM
Feel free to do that with any other coach in history while you're at it.

I only care about one coachs stupid decisons, and weird actions.

NightTrainLayne
01-05-2010, 10:32 AM
This = Smith pick

90% of the reason I hate the pick so much, is because he can never live up to it. Any successful player that gets drafted after the 14th pick this year will always get compared to smith.

I hate the pick because JMCD took a very risky thing and made it far more risky and expensive.

He said himself he trusts this scout department more than last year, but he still went with his hard on and mortgaged this years pick.

A timeline needs to be set up with all of MCD's weird decisions.

This whole idea that the Smith pick/trade from last season = this season's #14 pick is just bad analysis.

#1 When I bought my house or my car, I agreed to give the bank money in the future (payments) for the privilege of having the house and car right now. I don't ask myself every month. . ."oh geez, if I hadn't traded away my future money for this house I could have spent it on a diamond neckless for my wife this Christmas!"

#2 there was no knowledge at the time that the pick would equal #14 in this years draft. It was an unknown. Some thought it would be a top 5 pick. Others lower. Just like when I bought my house I didn't know what the value of the house or currency would be now 5 years down the road.

#3 We've had him on the roster for a year. A year to practice, and get into the system, and mature. When asked last month what the problem with Smith was, Nolan answered that it was just a matter of maturing in the system and in the league, something that every player goes through to some extent, and something that can't really be rushed.


Now. If you want to analyze it from that point of view, you can still argue that we over-payed for Smith. Lot's of people bought homes 5 years ago and now regret it becuase their worth 30% less than they were then. But let's not ignore that we have some benefits having a guy on the roster with some great physical attributes that is learning behind arguably the best secondary in the league. The Steelers and Colts draft guys all the time that hide in the depth chart for years before getting their shot and those teams always look brilliant.

Drafting talent is one part. Developing it is another. And development is often accomplished best when not failing on the field on Sundays. There's no guarantee that Smith will not be a bust, but for the past ten years, we've drafted guys and thrown them into the fire to meet immediate needs, and watched them fail, and then discard them. Some of those guys have ended up developing with other teams and turning into decent players.

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 10:40 AM
I only care about one coachs stupid decisons, and weird actions.

Point is, you cant separate him from everyone else that does the same job or has ever done the same job. Gambles and failed decisions come with the territory. To expect one teams coach to be perfect is ludicrous

broncofaninfla
01-05-2010, 10:41 AM
Did Mcd comment on taking Moreno and Ayers over Orakpo (pro bowl), Cushing, Harvin, Mathews and Delmas? Or how about spedning this years #1 pick to move up to take Smith? How about trading up for Quinn?

claymore
01-05-2010, 10:48 AM
This whole idea that the Smith pick/trade from last season = this season's #14 pick is just bad analysis.

#1 When I bought my house or my car, I agreed to give the bank money in the future (payments) for the privilege of having the house and car right now. I don't ask myself every month. . ."oh geez, if I hadn't traded away my future money for this house I could have spent it on a diamond neckless for my wife this Christmas!"

#2 there was no knowledge at the time that the pick would equal #14 in this years draft. It was an unknown. Some thought it would be a top 5 pick. Others lower. Just like when I bought my house I didn't know what the value of the house or currency would be now 5 years down the road.

#3 We've had him on the roster for a year. A year to practice, and get into the system, and mature. When asked last month what the problem with Smith was, Nolan answered that it was just a matter of maturing in the system and in the league, something that every player goes through to some extent, and something that can't really be rushed.


Now. If you want to analyze it from that point of view, you can still argue that we over-payed for Smith. Lot's of people bought homes 5 years ago and now regret it becuase their worth 30% less than they were then. But let's not ignore that we have some benefits having a guy on the roster with some great physical attributes that is learning behind arguably the best secondary in the league. The Steelers and Colts draft guys all the time that hide in the depth chart for years before getting their shot and those teams always look brilliant.

Drafting talent is one part. Developing it is another. And development is often accomplished best when not failing on the field on Sundays. There's no guarantee that Smith will not be a bust, but for the past ten years, we've drafted guys and thrown them into the fire to meet immediate needs, and watched them fail, and then discard them. Some of those guys have ended up developing with other teams and turning into decent players.

The difference is you knew the price of your house, and could assume with inflation that $1 dollar today will be worth less than $1 dollar 30 years from now. You could also assume that a house increases in value on average of 3-8% a year.

To compare buying a house to Smith you would have to say....... that you fell in love with a vacation house that you didnt need, and you had one very similar already, but you had to have it, and will commit an unknown amount of money in the future to it. The amount will be between $100,000-$320,000 when the house is only worth $140000.


So you took a complicated situation and made it worse. You bought a house at a highly inflated price, on a whim (he made the decision within a minute or 2), And now the bill came in, you owe more than 2 times what the house is worth.

The Alphonso Smith Trade was stupid. JMCD said it himself. He has way more trust for his scouting department this year.

It was a whim hard on decision.

claymore
01-05-2010, 10:52 AM
Point is, you cant separate him from everyone else that does the same job or has ever done the same job. Gambles and failed decisions come with the territory. To expect one teams coach to be perfect is ludicrous

It says Broncos forums. Not NFL forums. As for the Smith trade... My issue is not with smith.

My issue is that he took a risky situation and made it riskier with almost zero hope of ever paying off.

The chances of anyone coming back ever and saying that was a good idea are astronomically low.

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 10:55 AM
It says Broncos forums. Not NFL forums. As for the Smith trade... My issue is not with smith.

My issue is that he took a risky situation and made it riskier with almost zero hope of ever paying off.

The chances of anyone coming back ever and saying that was a good idea are astronomically low.

Jarvis Moss, Ashley lelie, Marcus Nash....yeah, the other coach made some bonehaed picks as well.

Problem is, there hasnt been enough time to tell if Smith was a bad move or not. if he ends up a Pro-Bowler one day, then he's well worth a #145 pick...or whatever you want to equate him to. Give it some damn time for God's sake

claymore
01-05-2010, 11:03 AM
Jarvis Moss, Ashley lelie, Marcus Nash....yeah, the other coach made some bonehaed picks as well.

Problem is, there hasnt been enough time to tell if Smith was a bad move or not. if he ends up a Pro-Bowler one day, then he's well worth a #145 pick...or whatever you want to equate him to. Give it some damn time for God's sake

If smith was worth a 14 this year he was worth an 18 last year. It was a boneheaded move, and if it ends up paying off we really, really got lucky.

There is no need to wait to give it time. Because I already know that no team in the NFL would give a #14 pick up for smith.

Ravage!!!
01-05-2010, 11:08 AM
Jarvis Moss, Ashley lelie, Marcus Nash....yeah, the other coach made some bonehaed picks as well.

Problem is, there hasnt been enough time to tell if Smith was a bad move or not. if he ends up a Pro-Bowler one day, then he's well worth a #145 pick...or whatever you want to equate him to. Give it some damn time for God's sake

and those picks were criticized and bitched about.... so why is it that clay can't say this pick was a bad pick because other coaches did the same thing?

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 11:14 AM
and those picks were criticized and bitched about.... so why is it that clay can't say this pick was a bad pick because other coaches did the same thing?

Can you really say after one year that a pick was bad? Again, what if he becomes a Pro-Bowler? He hasnt even been a part of the team for a year and people are already making him out to be part of the worst decision in team history. It's pathetic and just another little stone that McD haters are going to turn into a boulder

claymore
01-05-2010, 11:18 AM
Can you really say after one year that a pick was bad? Again, what if he becomes a Pro-Bowler? He hasnt even been a part of the team for a year and people are already making him out to be part of the worst decision in team history. It's pathetic and just another little stone that McD haters are going to turn into a boulder

Not saying Smith will be bad. Im saying we gave up way, way to much to get him.

Its like paying $10 bucks for a $1 dollar lottery ticket.

Ravage!!!
01-05-2010, 11:18 AM
Can you really say after one year that a pick was bad? Again, what if he becomes a Pro-Bowler? He hasnt even been a part of the team for a year and people are already making him out to be part of the worst decision in team history. It's pathetic and just another little stone that McD haters are going to turn into a boulder

No. I didn't 'hate' on McDaniels draft until after the draft. The draft choice was bad WHEN making the pick.. THere has been absolutely NO sign of him justifying that pick, and simply saying "its been only one year" is an easy way to deflect the criticisms. I can just as easily point out that UNTIL he does something to stop criticizing the pick, I'm going to keep doing it. Right now, I still have those rights. When you bring in a 76 yr old vet to play your position, then pull someone off the practice squad to play your position... when you were brought in to return kicks and you can't even do that.... I would say that I have a LOT LOT more room to criticize than those who try to defend teh pick.

The ONLY thing that you have to justify this pick, is the "lets give him more than one year" reasoning. Thats simply a way to deflect.

weazel
01-05-2010, 11:21 AM
Did Mcd comment on taking Moreno and Ayers over Orakpo (pro bowl), Cushing, Harvin, Mathews and Delmas? Or how about spedning this years #1 pick to move up to take Smith? How about trading up for Quinn?

yes he did... he said hindsight is 20/20. He wishes he could make his picks 8 months later, like yourself.

Ravage!!!
01-05-2010, 11:23 AM
yes he did... he said hindsight is 20/20. He wishes he could make his picks 8 months later, like yourself.

I'd like that see that quote.. do you have a link? I would be pretty pissed at our coach if he made that statement. Not because of the draft picks he made, but because that would be throwing your players under the bus, again.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-05-2010, 11:31 AM
Feel free to do that with any other coach in history while you're at it.

If I remember correctly, Shanahan had plenty of draft "busts" - way past the time he was a "rookie coach"

claymore
01-05-2010, 11:33 AM
If I remember correctly, Shanahan had plenty of draft "busts" - way past the time he was a "rookie coach"

No one is saying Smith is or will be a bust. We are saying it was borderline retarded to trade a future #1 pick for a 2nd round pick.

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 11:52 AM
No one is saying Smith is or will be a bust. We are saying it was borderline retarded to trade a future #1 pick for a 2nd round pick.

Something that teams do regularly.

dunk7
01-05-2010, 11:56 AM
Well Done Clay...but I fear your logic isn't understood by 90% of the people on here. The only reason I can fathom to make such a trade is if you are sure the 2nd round pick is a player that will provide an immediate return AND would be better than first round talent in the following year. He didn't make an impact thus a mistake was made.

claymore
01-05-2010, 12:13 PM
Something that teams do regularly.

When? Look into it further Chaz. We over paid for that pick.

The pats traded for the #40 overall. 3 Picks after us. They only gave up a 2nd, a 4th, and a 6th. And that was to move up 5 spots. We gave up a first moving back 23 spots to take smith.

How in the heck you can defend giving up so much draft leverage is beyond me.

#14 pick is worth 1100 points
#37 pick is worth 530 points

A difference of 570 points.


Trade 5 (4/25/09) – The Patriots acquired a 2009 second-round selection (No. 40 overall – DL Ron Brace) from the Oakland Raiders in exchange for a 2009 second-round selection (No. 47 overall), a 2009 fourth-round selection (No. 124 overall) and a 2009 sixth-round selection (No. 199 overall)

dogfish
01-05-2010, 12:18 PM
When? Look into it further Chaz. We over paid for that pick.

The pats traded for the #40 overall. 3 Picks after us. They only gave up a 2nd, a 4th, and a 6th. And that was to move up 5 spots. We gave up a first moving back 23 spots to take smith.

How in the heck you can defend giving up so much draft leverage is beyond me.

#14 pick is worth 1100 points
#37 pick is worth 530 points

A difference of 570 points.


it would be, except most teams only count a pick from next year as half of its value on that trade chart (which is outdated as hell anyway). . . don't ask me why, i never thought it made that much sense-- it's just what the common practice is. . . guess it's that whole bird in the hand thing. . .

*shrugs*




chaz, you must enjoy wasting your time. . .

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 12:19 PM
Well Done Clay...but I fear your logic isn't understood by 90% of the people on here. The only reason I can fathom to make such a trade is if you are sure the 2nd round pick is a player that will provide an immediate return AND would be better than first round talent in the following year. He didn't make an impact thus a mistake was made.

That's completely YOUR opinion. if you rate a guy as first round talent and for some reason, he falls out of the first round (as players often do) and then you have an opportunity to get him...you do it. Is it a gamble? of course. But no more a gamble than trading up for Jarvis Moss or drafting Ryan Leaf or any other player.

No one could know what pick we'd be giving up and no one can determine if we didnt receive any value in the pick as of yet. A few years from now if Smith isn't at least a very serviceable CB, then I'll be on board with this. My whole point is we cant call the kid a bust just yet when he hasnt had the opportunity to prove anything yet

claymore
01-05-2010, 12:24 PM
it would be, except most teams only count a pick from next year as half of it's value on that trade chart (which is outdated as hell anyway). . . don't ask me why, i never thought it made that much sense-- it's just what the common practice is. . . guess it's that whole bird in the hand thing. . .

*shrugs*




chaz, you must enjoy wasting your time. . .

Its worth less because of the risk involved. But a first next year will always be worth more than a second this year.

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 12:34 PM
it would be, except most teams only count a pick from next year as half of its value on that trade chart (which is outdated as hell anyway). . . don't ask me why, i never thought it made that much sense-- it's just what the common practice is. . . guess it's that whole bird in the hand thing. . .

*shrugs*




chaz, you must enjoy wasting your time. . .

Yeah...I've had nothing better to do this morning, so why not. I'm with you on the whole value chart. i dont think anyone can seriously say that guys drafted in the first round are always or even usually significantly better than guys drafted in the 2nd round. Maybe at a few positions, but not many.

WARHORSE
01-05-2010, 01:21 PM
You really have a special teams/3rd down back ranked 6th on your draft board?



Call him what you will. Hes the guy on the field making plays.

weazel
01-05-2010, 01:31 PM
I'd like that see that quote.. do you have a link? I would be pretty pissed at our coach if he made that statement. Not because of the draft picks he made, but because that would be throwing your players under the bus, again.

I should have used the SARCASM button

Ravage!!!
01-05-2010, 01:37 PM
I should have used the SARCASM button

I thought you were, but wasn't sure. You said he said it.... I had a feeling you were making a statement about the "8 months later".. but at the same time, people sure loved to criticize Shanahan's draft choices. We can't expect people to lay off McDaniels' picks.

claymore
01-05-2010, 01:44 PM
I thought you were, but wasn't sure. You said he said it.... I had a feeling you were making a statement about the "8 months later".. but at the same time, people sure loved to criticize Shanahan's draft choices. We can't expect people to lay off McDaniels' picks.

The pick doesnt concern me. The trade does. we could have 2 second round picks instead, or a #14.

That big of a gamble made without much thought, and in such a small amount of time.

Northman
01-05-2010, 01:48 PM
The pick doesnt concern me. The trade does. we could have 2 second round picks instead, or a #14.

That big of a gamble made without much thought, and in such a small amount of time.

Have to agree. I was hoping we would do more stockpiling and give ourselves more options. I know talent is key but when you have so many holes to fill you really need to get as much as you can and hope that some of them stick. But i know McD addressed this in his presser about doing more homework for the draft so hopefully thats one more thing he learned this year.

Elevation inc
01-05-2010, 02:15 PM
No one is saying Smith is or will be a bust. We are saying it was borderline retarded to trade a future #1 pick for a 2nd round pick.

this is a legit arguement and i liked alphonso smith alot......but we overpaid plain and simple even MCd admitted errors with the draft process last year yesterday in the DP.....We have a new scout team now and more than just 2 months to put a board together i think this year will be much more fruitiful....

also rember MCd was hired in January and the goodmans were in charge of GM stuff till they were let go becasue of the cutler issue...and the the cutler saga blew up so really i think MCD himself and xanders had about 1 month to prepare...they should and better get this next draft right!!!!

G_Money
01-05-2010, 03:07 PM
Again, I can't give Josh a pass on firing his draft gurus with a month to go before the draft and then finding himself woefully underprepared at draft time. This whole shooting himself in the foot thing has got to stop.

I understand there was some sort of power struggle and difference of opinion that led to the Goodmans' ouster and Xanders' promotion to Chief McDaniels Lackey, but if you're going to get into a fight with those guys you'd better be prepared to take over once you oust them, and Josh was not prepared.

Of course, since he's dumping every draftpick he can find that they made (other than the OTs apparently), it's entirely likely that keeping them would have been as much of a mistake as axing them at that point was.

I really, REALLY hope McDaniels knows what he's doing in the draft department this year (and talent evaluation in general). We can't have one of those early 2000s Shanny drafts. Shanahan had an offensive system that worked like greased lightning, with mediocre QBs putting up huge numbers (and great ones winning SBs) and a running attack that was #1 in the league. And he had 2 recent SB wins under his belt to offset any faltering due to personnel snafus.

McDaniels has had all the snafus he can handle for a while. We need players and results. So with a year to get the scouting department into a situation he likes, and the likely extra picks from Marshall, Josh should have some decent ammo to bring home a good draft.

Better get it done.

~G

dogfish
01-05-2010, 04:56 PM
I thought you were, but wasn't sure. You said he said it.... I had a feeling you were making a statement about the "8 months later".. but at the same time, people sure loved to criticize Shanahan's draft choices. We can't expect people to lay off McDaniels' picks.

my philosophy is, bitch about the pick if you don't like it, then shut the hell up and give the kid a chance to prove you wrong-- and YES, that's more than a year. . . anyone who's watched the NFL for more than a few seasons KNOWS that guys develop at different rates, and sometimes it takes good players a few years to figure it out. . .

i bitched up a storm about the smith pick when we did it-- i never disliked the player, but i didn't think the value was good any more than the rest of you. . . it's over and done with, though-- the guy's on our team and we're not getting the pick back, so all i can do now is hope that he turns into the player scouts thought he could be. . .

i really wish mcdaniels would come on here and apologize to you guys for crushing your dreams and not living up to your expectations, but i'm afraid he's not going to. . .

i'm more interested in looking forward to this year's draft than spending a lot of time rehashing last year's, but that's just me. . . however, if we are going to rehash, you guys need to give some credit where credit is due. . . his first draft may not look all that impressive as of right now, but the guy hit a major homerun in free agency-- one of those upper deck blasts with a few runners on base. . .

i didn't love a lot of those moves at the time either, but they paid off-- we desperately needed to fill all kinds of holes in a roster that had some nice individual talents in place, but was desperately talent-starved across the board when you look at the utter mess we had in terms of depth and defensive personnel. . . free agency was a serious success, and we accomplished more in one season in terms of turning over the defensive roster than we had any reasonable hope of. . . dawkins was a MONSTER addition, hill was a modest upgrade at the other safety spot, goodman was more consistent than bly. . .

mcbean, fields and holliday were surprisingly solid and gave us a fighting chance, haggan played well, reid was an effective rotational pass rusher, and andra davis played very well until maybe he wore down a little at the end of the year. . . on offense, buckhalter and gaffney were very productive in limited roles. . . paxton had a strong season even if i still resent that particular move. . . hochstein wasn't that good, but he was forced into greater duty than i would have liked-- dude's clearly best suited as a backup. . . simms was the only real disappointment in free agency, and one out of over a dozen is a damn impressive ratio. . .

of course, we took our chances rebuilding with all those aging guys, and it doesn't buy us more than another year or two-- but hopefully that'll give us the time we need to draft and develop guys that fit what we want to do. . . it's all down to the draft now, and hopefully with a full offseason of preparation we can really make the most of another solid slate of picks (especially if we deal marshall). . .

CoachChaz
01-05-2010, 04:58 PM
High five x 10

Ravage!!!
01-05-2010, 07:20 PM
yeah.. I wish he would come on the board and apologize too.

Ziggy
01-05-2010, 07:42 PM
I'm not thrilled that McD was so aggressive in the last draft when he was under prepared either. If anything, he should have traded out of some picks and picked up some for this year when he had the full time to prepare. It's over though, and I'm really looking forward to this draft. I think that he's attack this draft the same way he attacked free agency last year.

The Broncos have to get bigger, better, and tougher along the LOS on both sides of the ball. I expect coach to go heavy after O and D lineman in the draft, free agency, and trades. There is a good crop of UFA lineman out there. And yes, there are some good options whether the CBA gets agreed upon or not. Guys like Jahri Evans, Richard Seymour, Vince Wolfork, just to name a few, will be unrestricted. I expect the franchise tags will be used more than ever this year though, so we'll see. I'll be making a thread in the draft and free agency section on the available guys soon. Bottom line is, this offseason should be even more fun to watch than the last one, and that's saying something.

56crash
01-05-2010, 07:48 PM
Two quotes from McD:

"We feel a lot better about our scouting this year than we did last year. We've already set up our initial board"

McD won't rule out drafting any position with that high 1st round pick from Chi: "Whoever the best player is ... then we would do it."

Both quotes are encouraging. The first quote is an admission that the draft evaluation process was lacking last year (too bad we have less picks this year than last). The second quote I have always liked about McD: TAKE THE BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE! (regardless of position). I've seen so many wasted Bronco draft picks in the past drafting on need rather than the best player.

why you say that he was the one throwing away draft picks that he had mounths to look at he also had a look at NE 's draft scouting

Dean
01-05-2010, 08:46 PM
The problem with picking the best player available is that history shows that you aren't sure who he is. Top picks from each year are busts. If he turns out average, an average player at a position of need at least is an improvement. The theory of picking the best player available is great only if you can determine who he is.

Get what you think is the top player where you need help [U]or[U] at a position that requires time to develop. Positions like RB, LB, guards, safeties, #3 CB, and slot receivers can often be a rookie starter whereas QB, DE, DT, OT, #1 or #2 receiver usually takes time to develop (they are too expensive in free agency- as Shanahan found out and improved his draft).

Look to free agency for filling the positions that are still at bargain prices or for the player or two that "puts you over the top".

WARHORSE
01-05-2010, 10:31 PM
Its worth less because of the risk involved. But a first next year will always be worth more than a second this year.

Um, no.

So tell us who is going to trade you straight up, this years first for next years first?