Are we a better team than we were a year ago?

[broncofaninfla]

Are we a better team than we were a year ago?

[claymore]

I say no. In fact I think we are worse than we were at the beginning of this year.

[Shazam!]

No, but if Jay had been here, the defense was dead last in the League, and Shanny was Coach Denver would've magically been better at 8-8.

[NameUsedBefore]

No. The team has even more holes now and by the looks of things it's about to get pretty bad.

[frenchfan]

I don't know... but we were better than expected... remember all the people saying we'd be lucky if we win more than 4 games? :confused:

We weren't great last year... We are not great this year... Give time to time... we are trying to build something new... Will it work? Nobody knows...

What pisses me off though is this ability to struggle and quit at the worst time... This is the thing we have to correct... We used to be good in tough times with #7... This is no more one of our quality... And that really sucks !

We have some talent and some holes to fill... IMO, our lines need a rebuild... Our OL is not build to use McD's system... So, change one thing or the other... Our DL (and overall our front 7) is still a great weakness... Less than last year may be, but far away from being stellar... Things to improve for sure...

Just my 2 cents

[CoachChaz]

Are we a better team than we were a year ago? NO. Are we in better position to improve next year and the year after? Definitely.

Usually you have to take a step back in order to take two steps forward. Fortunately, we've just stood still, but we're set up to improve greatly next year

[gregbroncs]

I think so. Our schedule was much tougher this year and we have the same record. We did lose a couple of head scratcher's down the stretch but I think this has a lot to do with depth on the lines (especially defensive line) than overall talent. This team seemed to break down on both lines as the season went a long and that needs to be fixed but overall I think we are a better team.

[missingnumber7]

Not win an AFC West game at home...seriously...embarrassing.

[broncofaninfla]

We started off the season as the best team in the AFC West and finished the season as the worst team in the AFC West. Both KC and Oakland were better teams down the stetch and despite thier records are better teams than we are now. The bottom dwellers have caught up with us and we are now the door mat for the AFC west. We are getting worse at a time when the teams in our own division are getting better, not good.

[NightTrainLayne]

are we a better team than we were a year ago? No. Are we in better position to improve next year and the year after? Definitely.

Usually you have to take a step back in order to take two steps forward. Fortunately, we've just stood still, but we're set up to improve greatly next year

qft.

[rationalfan]

yes. only because slowik is gone.

[turftoad]

Are we a better team than we were a year ago? NO. Are we in better position to improve next year and the year after? Definitely.

Usually you have to take a step back in order to take two steps forward. Fortunately, we've just stood still, but we're set up to improve greatly next year

I don't believe this Coach.

Our 6-0 start was nothing more than a fluke. The 2-6 finish is more realistic for this team.

We lost a bunch of talent from last year and are getting ready to lose more after this season (Marshal and Schef).
That kind of talent is not easy to replace. Not to mention the drama goes along with McD's personel handling.

I think yesterdays game showed that the defense is NOT shored up as it first showed in the first six games.

There are mega holes to fill on the defensive side of the ball and with the loss of Marshal and Schef, the offense is going to need an infussion of talent.
There won't be enough draft picks of quality free agents in the next two years to take care of that.

Sorry if I don't have my orange tinted glasses on but McD has not earned my respect or confidence after his first season.

I hope I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time but I just don't see it.

BTW, Orton is NOT the answer, creates another hole. As I said, I hope I'm wrong but with all the holes, we are a fast sinking ship.

[EastCoastBronco]

yes. only because slowik is gone.

That was a Slowik type defensive performance yesterday if ever I saw one...

[EastCoastBronco]

Other than Gaffney's stellar performance, this team did not leave it's fans much to go on in the off-season... Lot more questions than answers.

[claymore]

Other than Gaffney's stellar performance, this team did not leave it's fans much to go on in the off-season... Lot more questions than answers.

Gaffney's performance is half the problem. No way should we be throwing to one guy that much.

[EastCoastBronco]

Gaffney's performance is half the problem. No way should we be throwing to one guy that much.

Don't rain on my little parade Clay...;-) I was just trying to find something positive in that mess...

[topscribe]

Gaffney's performance is half the problem. No way should we be throwing to one guy that much.

I really don't understand that line of reasoning, my friend. The same was being
said of Marshall's record-breaking performance. Hey, if it's gaining yards, go for
it. I don't see going away from what is being successful. Do it until they can
stop you . . .

-----

[claymore]

Don't rain on my little parade Clay...;-) I was just trying to find something positive in that mess...

My fault. :D

My positive from yesterday is that Charles didnt break the single game rushing record against us.

When Dillon did it in 2000 it was on every highlight reel in the world. Im just lad I dont have to go thru an offseason watching that.

[claymore]

I really don't understand that line of reasoning, my friend. The same was being
said of Marshall's record-breaking performance. Hey, if it's gaining yards, go for
it. I don't see going away from what is being successful. Do it until they can
stop you . . .

-----

Because they gave it to us. They dictated who we threw the ball to. and they took it away when they needed. Thats why.

[CoachChaz]

I don't believe this Coach.

Our 6-0 start was nothing more than a fluke. The 2-6 finish is more realistic for this team.

We lost a bunch of talent from last year and are getting ready to lose more after this season (Marshal and Schef).
That kind of talent is not easy to replace. Not to mention the drama goes along with McD's personel handling.

I think yesterdays game showed that the defense is NOT shored up as it first showed in the first six games.

There are mega holes to fill on the defensive side of the ball and with the loss of Marshal and Schef, the offense is going to need an infussion of talent.
There won't be enough draft picks of quality free agents in the next two years to take care of that.

Sorry if I don't have my orange tinted glasses on but McD has not earned my respect or confidence after his first season.

I hope I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time but I just don't see it.

BTW, Orton is NOT the answer, creates another hole. As I said, I hope I'm wrong but with all the holes, we are a fast sinking ship.

Fair enough...I can see how people would look at things this way. But i also take the approach that repairing the o-line will help Orton at QB and aide in the improvement of a rookie RB. losing Sheff is a wash because we never really used him much anyway. Marshall could be a loss...if he was irreplacable. That opinion lies in the individual. Look at what Gaffney did yesterday playing in the #1 spot and tell me we couldnt find another guy that can catch 10 balls a game.

The defense is in year one of a switch to a 3-4. Thinking we have all the players to make that work perfectly is insane. Fixing the DL will go a LONG way to repairing the deficiencies on that side as well. At the end of the day, I believe improving both lines goes a long way toward improving the team as a whole.

Yes...we started off 6-0. We had a little luck in those games and in my opinion...played more like a team. We didnt rely on one receiver to make all the plays (5 different receivers led the team in receiving in the first 6 games...only 2 different guys lead the team over the last 10) and honestly...our running game NEVER took off all season behind an overrated line.

[topscribe]

Because they gave it to us. They dictated who we threw the ball to. and they took it away when they needed. Thats why.

That's the name of the game, Clay: take what they give you. But if the Broncos
had a running game yesterday, the Chiefs would never have been able to take it
away. When it comes to Gaffney, yesterday showed me one thing: We have a
star at WR we didn't know we had. But then, he showed flashes all season.

-----

[turftoad]

Fair enough...I can see how people would look at things this way. But i also take the approach that repairing the o-line will help Orton at QB and aide in the improvement of a rookie RB. losing Sheff is a wash because we never really used him much anyway. Marshall could be a loss...if he was irreplacable. That opinion lies in the individual. Look at what Gaffney did yesterday playing in the #1 spot and tell me we couldnt find another guy that can catch 10 balls a game.

The defense is in year one of a switch to a 3-4. Thinking we have all the players to make that work perfectly is insane. Fixing the DL will go a LONG way to repairing the deficiencies on that side as well. At the end of the day, I believe improving both lines goes a long way toward improving the team as a whole.

Yes...we started off 6-0. We had a little luck in those games and in my opinion...played more like a team. We didnt rely on one receiver to make all the plays (5 different receivers led the team in receiving in the first 6 games...only 2 different guys lead the team over the last 10) and honestly...our running game NEVER took off all season behind an overrated line.

Thanks for reminding me about the O and D lines.

Just more holes to fill.

This is not High School football. It takes talent to win in the NFL. Period.

[turftoad]

That's the name of the game, Clay: take what they give you. But if the Broncos
had a running game yesterday, the Chiefs would never have been able to take it
away. When it comes to Gaffney, yesterday showed me one thing: We have a
star at WR we didn't know we had. But then, he showed flashes all season.

-----

And then again, he's no spring chicken. He made some nice catch's yesterday but won't be doing it for to many more years.

[CoachChaz]

Because they gave it to us. They dictated who we threw the ball to. and they took it away when they needed. Thats why.

When you rush for 300 yards in a game, you dont need to worry too much about pass defense...and let's not pretend that the same team that gave up over 400 yards passing was "dictating" anything

[weazel]

nope... did you think we would be? Did you think someone was going to come in with magic pixie dust and turn our horrid lines into world beaters?

[OrangeHoof]

I couldn't answer yes or no. Yes on defense, no on offense. In fact, the offense sounds like it is close to mutiny.

I get the impression we are experiencing the Belichick era - the Cleveland part. McD will probably win a Super Bowl in ten years with his second or third team. It won't happen in Denver, though.

[claymore]

That's the name of the game, Clay: take what they give you. But if the Broncos
had a running game yesterday, the Chiefs would never have been able to take it
away. When it comes to Gaffney, yesterday showed me one thing: We have a
star at WR we didn't know we had. But then, he showed flashes all season.

-----

They stopped the run and let Orton lose with Gaffney. I cannot believe you think Gaffney is a star.

[CoachChaz]

And then again, he's no spring chicken. He made some nice catch's yesterday but won't be doing it for to many more years.

29 is old? i guess Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Wes Welker, Dallas Clark, Hines Ward, Jason Witten, Tony Gonzalez, Randy Moss, etc...(all had 80+ receptions this year) should all start shutting it down on their careers.

[CoachChaz]

They stopped the run and let Orton lose with Gaffney. I cannot believe you think Gaffney is a star.

I wouldnt say Gaffney is a "star", but I think he could catch 80 plus balls in this offense.

I think that's more feasible to believe than to think any team would "let" another team pass at will.

[claymore]

29 is old? i guess Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Wes Welker, Dallas Clark, Hines Ward, Jason Witten, Tony Gonzalez, Randy Moss, etc...(all had 80+ receptions this year) should all start shutting it down on their careers.

All those guys are stars. 29 is pretty old to be hidden gem this whole time.

[turftoad]

29 is old? i guess Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Wes Welker, Dallas Clark, Hines Ward, Jason Witten, Tony Gonzalez, Randy Moss, etc...(all had 80+ receptions this year) should all start shutting it down on their careers.

OK, my bad, not to bad for a WR. However, he's has never been or will never be a role player and a good 3rd WR.
Yep, he had a good game yesterday but one great game does not make a stellar #1 wide out.

[Medford Bronco]

Don't rain on my little parade Clay...;-) I was just trying to find something positive in that mess...

My postive is that it was snowing and sunny at the same time:lol:

Ty Laws pick was good to help I guess................

dont have much really.


I will give McD one more year and if this happens again, I will agree with the non-McDs people.

He did a lousy job down the stretch and this has nothing to do with the Marshall and Scheffler thing. Do those guys play d that cant stop J Charles and Big Fatty from Oak?

Time to go back to square 1 and try to fit his scheme better with 3-4 personell on D and a bigger and tougher O line so Orton does not get killed so much. Orton has to be better in the Red Zone as well. Not so many Fgs.

at least we have Chicagos pick.

[claymore]

I wouldnt say Gaffney is a "star", but I think he could catch 80 plus balls in this offense.

I think that's more feasible to believe than to think any team would "let" another team pass at will.

THey didnt have to game plan around anyone yesterday. I will leave it at that.

[roomemp]

I vote no. We are not better than we were last year. We are about the same stats wise.

This is my honest opinion. We took a very slight step backwards this year. But saying that, we needed to take a step back to cleanse ourselves of what was 8 years of mediocrity (With the exception of 05) We now have a foundation which to improve year to year. We now have a great attitude of defense and a great foundation to build a solid one. Our D line and linebackers really wore down against the run as the seaon rolled on though. We need to address that. Our offense is in pretty okay shape......Biggest thing that needs to be upgraded is the offensive line. They are just WAYYY to small in the middle.

[CoachChaz]

OK, my bad, not to bad for a WR. However, he's has never been or will never be a role player and a good 3rd WR.
Yep, he had a good game yesterday but one great game does not make a stellar #1 wide out.

How many 100 yard games did Marshall have this season? 2 more than Gaffney. Marshall had 47 more catches (let's not forget that 32 of them came in 2 games) and less than 400 more yards.

I'm not making a case as to who is better between Gaffney or Marshall, but I think a case could be made that Gaffney could be a solid #1 receiver if need be.

[CoachChaz]

THey didnt have to game plan around anyone yesterday. I will leave it at that.

That's an easy statement to make after the game is over. but you'll never convince anyone that KC decided to intentionally allow Denver to pass for 400 yards before the game started

[claymore]

That's an easy statement to make after the game is over. but you'll never convince anyone that KC decided to intentionally allow Denver to pass for 400 yards before the game started

You are right. I cannot. But I can say that as a Defensive Coordinator I would stop other things before I stopped Orton or Gaffney. 2 Guys who will never beat you.

[CoachChaz]

You are right. I cannot. But I can say that as a Defensive Coordinator I would stop other things before I stopped Orton or Gaffney. 2 Guys who will never beat you.

If we dont let Jamal Charles run from Denver to NY and back...2 players would have beaten the Chiefs

[claymore]

I vote no. We are not better than we were last year. We are about the same stats wise.

This is my honest opinion. We took a very slight step backwards this year. But saying that, we needed to take a step back to cleanse ourselves of what was 8 years of mediocrity (With the exception of 05) We now have a foundation which to improve year to year. We now have a great attitude of defense and a great foundation to build a solid one. Our D line and linebackers really wore down against the run as the seaon rolled on though. We need to address that. Our offense is in pretty okay shape......Biggest thing that needs to be upgraded is the offensive line. They are just WAYYY to small in the middle.

Saying we needed to take a step back only makes some of you guys feel better.

The step back was last year. Thats why Shanahan was fired.

You dont fire someone because you want to get worse. You do it to get better.

[claymore]

If we dont let Jamal Charles run from Denver to NY and back...2 players would have beaten the Chiefs

1 of those 2 players scored more TD's for the Chiefs than he did for the Broncos.

THey put the game in Ortons hands.

[CoachChaz]

1 of those 2 players scored more TD's for the Chiefs than he did for the Broncos.

THey put the game in Ortons hands.

It's funny how the Cutler supporters always blamed his mistakes on the fact that he was always playing from behind, but when Orton had to do it yesterday...it's no longer a valid argument.

If this place has nothing else, it definitely has it's share of double standards. All manufactured to fit the current argument

[Buff]

I think we are better in some areas, worse in others... I'm a firm believer in Bill Parcells "You are what your record says you are" philosophy--so by that standard, it's pretty much a wash.

I think we're definitely improved on defense but have clearly regressed in the passing game. The alarming thing to me is our complete lack of a running game. We returned 5 offensive starters on the O-line, drafted a 1st round RB and signed a couple backs in free agency... Yet, we can't seem to run on anyone. I didn't expect our defense to be as good as they were during the first part of the year and I didn't expect Orton to set the world on fire throwing the ball--but I did expect us to have a decent running game.

Overall, I think it's hard to definitively say we're better or we're worse. We're still a mediocre football team.

[topscribe]

Fair enough...I can see how people would look at things this way. But i also take the approach that repairing the o-line will help Orton at QB and aide in the improvement of a rookie RB. losing Sheff is a wash because we never really used him much anyway. Marshall could be a loss...if he was irreplacable. That opinion lies in the individual. Look at what Gaffney did yesterday playing in the #1 spot and tell me we couldnt find another guy that can catch 10 balls a game.

The defense is in year one of a switch to a 3-4. Thinking we have all the players to make that work perfectly is insane. Fixing the DL will go a LONG way to repairing the deficiencies on that side as well. At the end of the day, I believe improving both lines goes a long way toward improving the team as a whole.

Yes...we started off 6-0. We had a little luck in those games and in my opinion...played more like a team. We didnt rely on one receiver to make all the plays (5 different receivers led the team in receiving in the first 6 games...only 2 different guys lead the team over the last 10) and honestly...our running game NEVER took off all season behind an overrated line.

It seemed to me that Wiegmann's age caught up with him as the season wore
on. And Hamilton was never there . . . he was between Pro Bowler Wiegmann
and Clady, who should have been a Pro Bowler. So, as Wiegmann went, so did
Hamilton.

After Harris went down, Kuper found himself on an island between mediocre
Polumbus and now mediocre Wiegmann. Even Clay's performance then suffered.

Next year, they will have Harris, Kuper, and Clady back. They might be able
to scrape along one more year with Wiegmann if they can get a good LG. His
play is not at his former level, but he remains a good general.

The RB position is very good . . . if they will jettison Jordan and forget about him.

Orton has played under multiple handicaps this year and has done a good job
in the process. He will be healthy again, and will have a year and another
camp with the system and his team. Despite his interceptions, this final game
showed a better arm and mobility than what has been attributed to him by
unknowing people.

The receivers are good, even if Marshall doesn't return. Gaffney proved that,
and I expect Royal to be back in full. Lloyd showed us he can play. Stokley is
aging, so they need another receiver to step up. McKinley? We'll see. He is
fast like DeSean Jackson, but can he play like Jackson? Well, his college coach
said McKinley is the best player he ever had, for what that's worth.

The TEs worry me. Graham and Quinn are terrific blockers but, without
Scheffler there is no real receiving threat there. Of course, McDaniels' system
relegates the TE to a more minor role in receiving, but that big mismatch in
the end zone will be missed. Nate Jackson and Putzier are still out there, and
they were very good receivers--miserable blockers, but good receivers.

In the secondary, I believe McDaniels has made sure they are set for a few
years. McBath and Bruton are proving better than advertised. The CBs still
have speed (did you see Goodman run down Charles yesterday?:shocked:),
and I see a good two or three years in them . . . and don't give up on
Aphonso Smith.

LB is a strength, IMO, with Dumervil and D.J. returning, and Ayers was
progressively coming on throughout the season. I believe Michael Lombardi
had Ayers nailed: He said Ayers will prove out to be the best defensive player
of the draft, but he implied it would take a couple years to do so. So with
those three, along with Davis, Reid, Haggan, and Woodyard, that is a position
that many other teams might envy.

DL needs help . . . lots of help. Fields has been barely serviceable, and I think
he wore down as the season dragged on. Baker is thought to have a lot of
talent but is raw. Maybe another camp and preseason will get him ready? But
they can't count on that: They need to go after somebody. I believe McBean,
if he breaks out, can be a fine DE. The others are a credit to the team in
terms of character, but the talent isn't there. So they could use another DE.

Much of what I have said here could not be said of last year's team. Despite
the same W-L record, I believe this team is a significant improvement over
last year's team. This team provides an element I did not see last year:

Hope.

-----

[claymore]

It's funny how the Cutler supporters always blamed his mistakes on the fact that he was always playing from behind, but when Orton had to do it yesterday...it's no longer a valid argument.

If this place has nothing else, it definitely has it's share of double standards. All manufactured to fit the current argument

Cutler has nothing to do with yesterdays loss. Its time to let it go.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

How many 100 yard games did Marshall have this season? 2 more than Gaffney. Marshall had 47 more catches (let's not forget that 32 of them came in 2 games) and less than 400 more yards.

I'm not making a case as to who is better between Gaffney or Marshall, but I think a case could be made that Gaffney could be a solid #1 receiver if need be.

As dogfish pointed out before Coach, having a big day against one the most porous secondaries we faced all year isn't necessarily a great barometer of talent or future performance. Had say, Willis or McKinley done something like that then maybe you could use that to give an idea of their ability. Gaffney isn't a rookie or a "young player". We're his 3rd franchise. He never fully grabbed a hold on the #2 spot behind Andre Johnson in Houston so he was let go. He never really established himself in NE as a legitimate threat (only started one season opposite of Reche Caldwell who out performed him all season) and that's why they went out the very next season and traded for Moss and Welker, and signed Dante Stallworth. Gaffney was the fourth option in that offense and NE didn't even try to keep him. That tells me something.

Gaffney is a decent WR, but I don't think he's a guy who can do it week after week. He's a guy that has big games sometimes (usually because he benefits from the opposing defense focusing on the other WR) and sometimes makes clutch catches, but just as often, he's dropping passes. He doesn't have elite deep speed, either. He's okay in our offense because he has played in it before it. He's definitely not a guy that can't be shut down by an above average or better secondary though, IMO.

[MasterShake]

Are we a better team than we were a year ago? NO. Are we in better position to improve next year and the year after? Definitely.

Usually you have to take a step back in order to take two steps forward. Fortunately, we've just stood still, but we're set up to improve greatly next year

Spot on! This year was not a step forward or backward, but it was a big step SIDEWAYS.

I went back and looked at the prediction thread and I had us, while being completely honest with myself, going 8-8. Am I happy that I was right? No. And after starting 6-0 I thought I was going to be proved wrong.

After the dust has settled, I really had some time to put things in perspective. Looking back, the 6-0 start is the worst thing that could have happened in many ways. Even when we were winning, there were some games that I felt we should have lost (Cincinnati being the one that pops in my mind immediately).

On the flip side, I think we beat some legitimately good teams such as Dallas and New England. Even the Philly and Indy games made me proud of my Broncos.

The losses to Chiefs, Raiders, and Washington hurt but every team has those. You just need to look at teams like the Saints and Steelers who are much better than the Broncos this year in many ways that lost to some bad teams to attest to that.

Heres my final thoughts in this year than its time to move forward for me!:lol:

PROS:
McDaniels- love him or hate him, this guy is our new coach. Personally, I think he is beyond his years and I like how he has more emotion than "stern rat-like eyes" when players screw up.

Dumervil- Cut Brandon Marshall loose and free up some money to keep this guy.

The Secondary- #2 pass defense and some great veteran leaders. Loved Dawkins energy.

Kyle Orton- Just seems like a humble, decent Qb who had a pretty solid year. It was fun to see them open up the play book in the last game because his deep ball looked good sometimes, but his inaccuracy led to two pick-sixes. Good short term answer, and I would be happy to see him around as we groom the next Denver QB. Unless we can dominate with a running game, he is not the answer long term.

Moreno/Buckhalter one-two punch- Kind of streaky, but you can see flashes of what a good tandem they could be. Shoring up the O-line should make Moreno a 1200+ yd back next year.

Ryan Clady- Still a big bright spot! Keep this guy here too!

Matt Prater- After a shaky year last season, this guy really looked good.

CONS:

Offensive Line- It sure is.

Run Defense- The D and O line should be a focus next year. That last game was giving me flashbacks to Corey Dillon breaking a record against us.

Red Zone Offense- I don't know what the answer is here, but its a problem.

Short yardage- Use a fullback, use a stretch play, use shotgun and pass it- just stop trying to run it up the middle using a speed oriented back with a weak interior line! :mad:

The "Deep Threat"- Someone else mentioned, and I agree, we need to copy San Diego's tall, speedy receivers to stretch the field.

Penalties- we looked like the Raiders sometimes this year. Mostly holding calls, but still way too many penalties!

Receivers not named Marshall- Royal, Gaffney, Graham, Stockley, seemed like ghosts most of the time. I thought with those receivers we would have a great short passing game. Not so. I still like them though, hope they all come back next year! Especially Royal and Gaffney.

That about sums it up for me. Hopefully with Free Agency and the Draft we work toward a team that suits McDaniel's philosophy and coaching style. He has a few seasons before I'm ready to throw him under the bus. :lol:

In the meantime, its my second favorite football past time of rooting against other teams! Though I would like to see New Orleans take it all. I just hope its anyone but New England or Dallas.

Looking forward to the offseason for once! Should be fun! :salute:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I see a lot of positives for the future of the team and that's good. I just really have to disagree with some things that other guys have talked about:

1) I just don't think the O-line is as terrible as everyone is making it out to be. Yes, they had a lot of trouble after the bye week getting the running game going but I strongly doubt they just magically "wore down" in one week and stayed that way for the rest of the season. More likely to me, the Ravens just did a really good job of game planning vs our blocking schemes and exposed our weaknesses. From then on, other teams just copied that blueprint to beat our running game. I think it was scheme more than O-line. Everyone wanted Hamilton pulled for Hochstein but when it happened, we didn't improve at all. We actually got WORSE running the ball. Should we look to replace some of the aging guys (Hamilton and Weigmann)? Of course. I just don't think the O-line magically reverted to awful in one week off. I think we started getting outschemed and others just followed that plan for the rest of the year.

2) I know there are a ton of Orton supporters on the board and the numbers he put up this year were okay (21 TDs, 12 INTs) so it looks like he's getting the job done. Once again, I don't hate Orton personally. Everyone thinks I have a big hard-on for bashing this guy, but hear me out before you make your decision on whether I'm just a Cutler-loving, Orton-hating jerk.

I think it's a relatively universal feeling (with a few exceptions) that Orton probably isn't the long-term answer at QB (this is you guys talking, not me). My feelings on the matter are if we know we're rebuilding and we know he's not the long term answer, then why waste the time and reps and starts on him? Why not put someone in that will benefit for the future instead of just being a guy to get by with until our next guy might come along? Everyone has said we are rebuilding, everyone has said to give McDaniels more time and that it doesn't happen overnight, and everyone has said we're not one player away from a Superbowl. So why is it that we start a player that we know in our heart of hearts just can't lead us there? Orton's not a rookie. Even the "learning a new system" argument doesn't really work if the physical talents that the system requires can't be met by Orton? He can't force a defense to defend every blade of grass. He doesn't do a good job hitting receivers in stride (JDL has a very good post about this, I recommend it if you haven't read it), he's not pocket savvy or mobile enough to either elude pressure in the pocket or throw on the run with any type of accuracy, and he still, after 4 years in the league, eyeballs his intended receiver from snap to throw. Teams started noticing this, too. That's why our third down conversion percentage (for passing) dropped drastically the second half of the season. I think the cat's out of the bag with him. Every defense in the league knows how to beat him and our passing game, now. In short, I'd rather groom a rookie and take our lumps now than continuously have to gameplan around Orton's wekanesses to cater to his few strengths. This is not a personal attack on Orton, but few can probably argue about a lot of the things i said. He brings likeability and leadership, just not the physical skillset to really lead a productive offense. Like it or not, all of the elite teams in the playoffs this year (those getting 1st round byes) are there because they have elite QB's with dynamic skill sets.

These are my top two concerns right now after seeing the last 10 weeks of the season. Replacing stopgap players on the defensive line and in the LB corps is third and adding depth to our aging secondary is fourth on my list of priorities I think we need to address in the offseason. And I think pretty much everyone agrees with those.

[CoachChaz]

I'll agree with this. I dont think the o-line needs a complete overhaul, but I believe injuries and weak spots put the whole liine under pressure. i expect this will be fixed for next season.

As far as Orton goes...I dont think you'll find one person that supports him that wouldnt accept an upgrade. So I dont think any of us blindly support him, but we can see that he did a decent job with all things considered and can improve...just like everyone else on the team can

[topscribe]

Cutler has nothing to do with yesterdays loss. Its time to let it go.

Coach was not talking about Cutler.

He was talking about Cutler supporters and how they need to let it go.

-----

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I'll agree with this. I dont think the o-line needs a complete overhaul, but I believe injuries and weak spots put the whole liine under pressure. i expect this will be fixed for next season.

As far as Orton goes...I dont think you'll find one person that supports him that wouldnt accept an upgrade. So I dont think any of us blindly support him, but we can see that he did a decent job with all things considered and can improve...just like everyone else on the team can

I know, Coach. Maybe I'm just pig-headed, but if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem in my book. If we had a defensive back that was a great person and team leader but just wasn't a very good man corner - maybe decent in zone or under certain schemes or we constantly had to roll coverage to him because if not he was ineffective - would we start him? We had a guy like that once named Jimmy Spencer. He was hard working and likeable and a verbal leader, just didn't have the athletic talent on the field. We made him a coach.

Why not try to fix the problems as best we can instead of continuing to work around them. We get to press the big RESET button and start over now. I think we should. Getting rid of Marshall and Scheffler should help with the offseason drama, now lets fix the team.

I'm just really not confident that Orton can improve. I think we've seen his best. He has over 40 starts under his belt now. He's in his proverbial ""prime" physically right now. Even if he gains knowledge and smarts for the system, he still just can't make that 9 route pass accurately or outrun a defensive end to the 1st down marker.

[topscribe]

I know, Coach. Maybe I'm just pig-headed, but if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem in my book. If we had a defensive back that was a great person and team leader but just wasn't a very good man corner - maybe decent in zone or under certain schemes or we constantly had to roll coverage to him because if not he was ineffective - would we start him? We had a guy like that once named Jimmy Spencer. He was hard working and likeable and a verbal leader, just didn't have the athletic talent on the field. We made him a coach.

Why not try to fix the problems as best we can instead of continuing to work around them. We get to press the big RESET button and start over now. I think we should. Getting rid of Marshall and Scheffler should help with the offseason drama, now lets fix the team.

At least you try to get along with people while you do it.

That sets you apart from some . . .

-----

[claymore]

Coach was not talking about Cutler.

He was talking about Cutler supporters and how they need to let it go.

-----

Orton sucks Independently of Cutler. The "supporters" dont bring Cutler up nears as much as the pro Orton guys.

[CoachChaz]

I know, Coach. Maybe I'm just pig-headed, but if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem in my book. If we had a defensive back that was a great person and team leader but just wasn't a very good man corner - maybe decent in zone or under certain schemes or we constantly had to roll coverage to him because if not he was ineffective - would we start him? We had a guy like that once named Jimmy Spencer. He was hard working and likeable and a verbal leader, just didn't have the athletic talent on the field. We made him a coach.

Why not try to fix the problems as best we can instead of continuing to work around them. We get to press the big RESET button and start over now. I think we should. Getting rid of Marshall and Scheffler should help with the offseason drama, now lets fix the team.

I'm just really not confident that Orton can improve. I think we've seen his best. He has over 40 starts under his belt now. His in his proverbial ""prime" physically right now. Even if he gains knowledge and smarts for the system, he still just can't make that 9 route pass accurately or outrun a defensive end to the 1st down marker.

I wont say his physical gifts will improve, but maybe he makes a better pass with an extra second of protection. Maybe other routes are more open when the running game is working better. Who knows.

Orton is what we have now and he's here for reasons that we can...and probably...debated all day. That's irrelevant at this point. What I'm looking for is an impreovement as a team as a whole. I think we all are, but getting rid of the coach or throwing some rookie QB into the fire probably isnt going to get that done

[topscribe]

Orton sucks Independently of Cutler. The "supporters" dont bring Cutler up nears as much as the pro Orton guys.

The "Orton sucks" guys don't dare bring up Cutler. :lol:

-----

[CoachChaz]

Orton sucks Independently of Cutler. The "supporters" dont bring Cutler up nears as much as the pro Orton guys.

Well, I couldnt tell you the last time my fingers have typed CUTLER. Maybe I have, but I dont recall.

I also cant recall the first or last time I ever said Orton was the answer. In fact, i dont know anyone that has.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Okay, New Year's resolution for me.

Now that the season has ended, I'm going to press the big RESET button on my opinions of McDaniels and watch his process work. After 16 games he should have no doubts about what he needs to do to make this team his including getting the type of players he needs for success. No more criticizing him until the season starts from me. I really do want this guy to prove all my whining and complaining about him wrong this year and make this a great team to be proud of again.

I have a short temper and shorter memory, so I'm asking all my brothers and sisters here on this board to remind me of this when I start falling off the wagon.

Thanks.

[Delgoth]

I voted yes Just because I am a BIG believer in Defences win championships and Offenses win games. With Nolan running the D and Dawkins around to be the vocal leader (we have been looking for since Al Wilson) I think next year we wont have as big of a drop off in the second half of the year. Give McD another year to figure out the redzone problems and I think we have a playoff game or two next season.

As for this season we did better than I expected even with locker room problems. Another offseason to fix those problems that I expect to be gone next year. I would love to see the players stay and the locker room problems to disapear but if that cant happen then so be it. In the end I see us with atleast a winning season next year. :beer:

[Northman]

Better competitive spirit, more accountability. Yes, we are far better than we were a year ago. Now, its just time to get rid of the douchebags who quit on the team.

[topscribe]

I'm asking all my brothers and sisters here on this board to remind me of this when I start falling off the wagon.

Thanks.

Well . . . back to AA . . .







:D



-----

[titan]

The one area I thought McDaniels really excelled at (and was better than Shanahan) was at free agent signings. He turned one of the worst secondaries in the league to one of the best with other team's castoffs. Some of the free agent signings questioned at the time (dawkins, buck, andre davis) turned out great. A look at the free agents:

* Chris Simms - QB - 03/05/2009
Worst one of the bunch - grade D. Looked good on paper but Simms just didn't produce when called upon.
* JJ Arrington - RB - 03/05/2009 - 4 years, 10 mil
Never played - grade incomplete
* Kenny Peterson - DT/DE - 03/05/2009 - 3 years
Solid re-signing grade B+
* LaMont Jordan - RB - 03/04/2009 - 2 years, 2.5 mil
??? never figured this one out 2nd worst signing Grade C-
* Ronald Fields - DT - 03/02/2009 - 2 years, 5 mil
Adequate in a position of great need - grade B+
* Andre Goodman - CB - 03/01/2009 - 5 years, 25 mil, 10 Guaranteed
quietly had an excellent year grade A
* Brian Dawkins - FS - 02/28/2009 - 5 years, 17 mil, 7.2 Guaranteed
the old man had plenty left in the tank grade A+
* Andra Davis - LB - 02/28/2009 - 4 years, 16 mil
solid player in the new defense grade A-
* Darrell Reid - DT - 02/28/2009 - 3 years, 6.8 mil
Showed he was more than a special teamer grade A
* Renaldo Hill - FS - 02/27/2009 - 4 Years, 10 mil, 3 Guaranteed
definite upgrade grade B+
* Jabar Gaffney - WR - 02/27/209, 4 Years, 10 mil, 3 Guaranteed
Showed in the last 2 games he has something grade B
* Correll Buckhalter - RB - 02/27/2009, 4 Years, 10 mil
nice complement to knowshon grade B+
* Lonnie Paxton - LS - 02/27/2009 5 years, 5.3 mil
not sure on this one - grade B-

It'll be interesting to see what McD does with free agent signings for next year. Hopefully the interior of the o-line and dlines will be addressed.

McD's drafting at first glance doesn't seem as good as what we had with the Goodmans and Shanahan. The Chiefs Jamal Charles didn't blossom until the last half of his 2nd year - maybe some of the bronco 2009 draftees will look better with another year's experience. Too soon to call the 2009 draft class a disappointment.

[claymore]

The "Orton sucks" guys don't dare bring up Cutler. :lol:

-----We dont bring Cutler up because he has nothing to do with our team Top. The people that say Orton sucks really mean Orton sucks. Its not blind hate.




Better competitive spirit, more accountability. Yes, we are far better than we were a year ago. Now, its just time to get rid of the douchebags who quit on the team.

Show me the accountability and the competitive spirit. Please.

[Northman]

Show me the accountability and the competitive spirit. Please.


In McD's presser he stated that he made some mistakes this year. For the most part this year this team never gave up when the chips were down. Far more than what ive seen from this team the last 3 years.

[claymore]

In McD's presser he stated that he made some mistakes this year. For the most part this year this team never gave up when the chips were down. Far more than what ive seen from this team the last 3 years.

Ive seen the mistakes. Say what you want, but we lost 80% of our last 10 games.

Not ragging on you, I am just trying to understand where the people that are positive about this team are coming from.

[CoachChaz]

Ive seen the mistakes. Say what you want, but we lost 80% of our last 10 games.

Not ragging on you, I am just trying to understand where the people that are positive about this team are coming from.

I guess the flipside is that us optimists cant really see why others dont see the positives.

Some see a cocky young coach that is bull-headed and arrogant. others see a confident young coach that makes the team rules and makes people accountable for their actions.

Some see the possible departure of an annual 100 reception WR. Others see the possible eparture of a team cancer that is all about himself.

Some see an o-line that was overrated based on their play in a pass, pass, pass offense. others see a few holes that created some issues this year but can easily be fixed.



I could go on, but it all depends on what approach each person chooses to take. We could ALL choose to be miserable and assume the worst and only look at things from the negative aspect, but does that make us right or wrong? I guess I just dont understand the harm in rallying around our team, finding positives and looking forward to the growth of the team as opposed to the expectation that we should be Super Bowl contenders every year and when we dont get there...we have nothing left but to complain

[claymore]

I guess the flipside is that us optimists cant really see why others dont see the positives.

Some see a cocky young coach that is bull-headed and arrogant. others see a confident young coach that makes the team rules and makes people accountable for their actions.

Some see the possible departure of an annual 100 reception WR. Others see the possible eparture of a team cancer that is all about himself.

Some see an o-line that was overrated based on their play in a pass, pass, pass offense. others see a few holes that created some issues this year but can easily be fixed.



I could go on, but it all depends on what approach each person chooses to take. We could ALL choose to be miserable and assume the worst and only look at things from the negative aspect, but does that make us right or wrong? I guess I just dont understand the harm in rallying around our team, finding positives and looking forward to the growth of the team as opposed to the expectation that we should be Super Bowl contenders every year and when we dont get there...we have nothing left but to complain

Great post.

I dont see JMCD as bull headed and arrogant, I seem him as emotional and over rated.

I believe Marshall is a cancer, and knew/know he should be gone. The problem I have is that we need to be polishing Marshall and telling other teams he is prettier than he is. Not publicly calling him out and benching him before a must win game.

I said our Oline is was over rated this summer and got laughed at and flamed.

I just feel the way I feel. I cant help it. I know all this bothers me less than it used to though. Which is good.

[CoachChaz]

Great post.

I dont see JMCD as bull headed and arrogant, I seem him as emotional and over rated.

I believe Marshall is a cancer, and knew/know he should be gone. The problem I have is that we need to be polishing Marshall and telling other teams he is prettier than he is. Not publicly calling him out and benching him before a must win game.

I said our Oline is was over rated this summer and got laughed at and flamed.

I just feel the way I feel. I cant help it. I know all this bothers me less than it used to though. Which is good.

I'll agree to the a point. In all honesty, I dont think calling Marshall out will affect his status on the market. Never worked negatively for TO or any other bum like that and I doubt a team that is desperate for a WR will hesitate in taking a chance on him.

McDaniels emotional? Definitely...but I like that. Overrated? I dont know that we can call him that yet until we see what he can do with HIS offense. Sounds vague, but an improved line and more time in the system for everyone cant hurt.

[Superchop 7]

Defensively......better

Offensively......worse

Front office/drafting......worse

[Northman]

Ive seen the mistakes. Say what you want, but we lost 80% of our last 10 games.

Not ragging on you, I am just trying to understand where the people that are positive about this team are coming from.

Well, obviously when you look at the w/l (which is important) it just doesnt look all that great. Hence why i look at it a little deeper with the players and their body language and play. Its not to say that they are light years better than last year but i do see some improvement there.

[claymore]

Well, obviously when you look at the w/l (which is important) it just doesnt look all that great. Hence why i look at it a little deeper with the players and their body language and play. Its not to say that they are light years better than last year but i do see some improvement there.

Im glad you guys see it. I will hold your guys hair when / if its your turn to puke. Cause ya'll are my mf'ers. :D

[silkamilkamonico]

We were the same.

8-8 isn't better, or worse than 8-8.

It's not rocket science.

[missingnumber7]

We were the same.

8-8 isn't better, or worse than 8-8.

It's not rocket science.

I'll take last years 8-8 with no locker room turmoil over this years 8-8 anyday.

[silkamilkamonico]

I'll take last years 8-8 with no locker room turmoil over this years 8-8 anyday.

Yea, nothing like having a coach, or a team, not put any effot in defense, or special teams. Especially when the offense wasn't the well oiled maching everyone thought it was.

Football is a 3 facet game, not 1.

[Ravage!!!]

To answer the title of the thread... No...

SHATTERED is the best way to describe this team next season. Cutler one direction, Marshall another, Scheffler another, Hillis yet another.. and Stokely landing yet somewhere else as well.

In 2012 (since there may not be football at all in 2011), we'll be looking back and wondering "what the hell happened to all the talent on this team?." McD will be a coordinator somewhere (maybe), and the new coach will be rebuilding what this regime Shattered into pieces.

[claymore]

My main hope is JMCD is a good drafter. I still cant believe Alphonso Smith was worth a #14 overall. I guess he contributes almost as much as moss who was taken a few picks later(Couple years earlier). FML.

[silkamilkamonico]

Hardly "shattered".

Shattered would be going from 10+ winning seasons to not even 5. Going from 8-8 to 5 is slightly worse.

Besides, we'll be about the same next year. And anyone who says different doesn't understand the ebb and flow of NFL organizations.

[topscribe]

To answer the title of the thread... No...

SHATTERED is the best way to describe this team next season. Cutler one direction, Marshall another, Scheffler another, Hillis yet another.. and Stokely landing yet somewhere else as well.

In 2012 (since there may not be football at all in 2011), we'll be looking back and wondering "what the hell happened to all the talent on this team?." McD will be a coordinator somewhere (maybe), and the new coach will be rebuilding what this regime Shattered into pieces.

Now, now, not everything is peaches and cream, Rav.

You must see something bad in all this . . . :D

-----

[silkamilkamonico]

My main hope is JMCD is a good drafter. I still cant believe Alphonso Smith was worth a #14 overall. I guess he contributes almost as much as moss who was taken a few picks later(Couple years earlier). FML.

McDaniels is a great NFL mind, but if last draft is any indication, I won't hold my hopes up.

[arapaho2]

McDaniels is a great NFL mind, but if last draft is any indication, I won't hold my hopes up.

thats evident by taking a solid offense and totaly squashing it to a laughing stock...or did i miss something?

[topscribe]

thats evident by taking a solid offense and totaly squashing it to a laughing stock...or did i miss something?

You missed something . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/wink-2.gif

-----

[arapaho2]

You missed something . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/wink-2.gif

-----


other then his selection of nolan, nunnely and donnatel...overall just where did his football brilliance show up???:laugh:

[claymore]

McDaniels is a great NFL mind, but if last draft is any indication, I won't hold my hopes up.


other then his selection of nolan, nunnely and donnatel...overall just where did his football brilliance show up???:laugh:

Yeah, we might need to get the chalk board and game tape out. Either Orton is borderline retarded, and screwed up McDaniels offense, McDaniels isnt much of a genius.

[topscribe]

Yeah, we might need to get the chalk board and game tape out. Either Orton is borderline retarded, and screwed up McDaniels offense, McDaniels isnt much of a genius.

It's Cutler's fault . . .

-----

[arapaho2]

Yeah, we might need to get the chalk board and game tape out. Either Orton is borderline retarded, and screwed up McDaniels offense, McDaniels isnt much of a genius.

yeah im torn...afterall orton did lead the bears to a solid season in 05...of course the #2 defense may have helped

and mcd did have great success in NE...but then brady might have had a little to do with it

[dogfish]

I wont say his physical gifts will improve, but maybe he makes a better pass with an extra second of protection. Maybe other routes are more open when the running game is working better. Who knows.

Orton is what we have now and he's here for reasons that we can...and probably...debated all day. That's irrelevant at this point. What I'm looking for is an impreovement as a team as a whole. I think we all are, but getting rid of the coach or throwing some rookie QB into the fire probably isnt going to get that done




I also cant recall the first or last time I ever said Orton was the answer. In fact, i dont know anyone that has.


ahh, now we're down to the nuts and bolts. . . so what do you think we should do-- do we focus all our energies on making the team around him better and try to field a team in the (pre-flacco) ravens mold, with a nasty defense and very conservative offense? or do we invest a draft pick in the top two or three rounds on a QB to start developing for the future?

[MadMax]

I wish there was an option for "the same", so technically that means not better. Anyways, the ending was much more disappointing this year because I had more hope for this team. Last year I went into the Bills game expecting us to lose/embarass ourselves and wasn't surprised. I also have a worse taste in my mouth from all the marshall/scheffler/cutler nonsense. I think we were improved in some ways, worse in others. But at the end of the day, same quality of team == same results. I'm terrified about our draftpicks though, most years even in bad drafts we had a diamond in the rough or two, doesn't seam to be the case after this season.

[Buff]

ahh, now we're down to the nuts and bolts. . . so what do you think we should do-- do we focus all our energies on making the team around him better and try to field a team in the (pre-flacco) ravens mold, with a nasty defense and very conservative offense? or do we invest a draft pick in the top two or three rounds on a QB to start developing for the future?

Well, in a perfect world, I'd like to do both. Championships are won and lost with defense and a running game... But you can only get so far with a mediocre QB.

[silkamilkamonico]

thats evident by taking a solid offense and totaly squashing it to a laughing stock...or did i miss something?

Common sense on what the situation presented, but then again, that has never really been your strong suit.

[turftoad]

Yea, nothing like having a coach, or a team, not put any effot in defense, or special teams. Especially when the offense wasn't the well oiled maching everyone thought it was.

Football is a 3 facet game, not 1.

Seriously, you don't think Shanny knew that? Do you really think he wasn't going to address the defense in the offseason given the chance?

[dogfish]

Seriously, you don't think Shanny knew that? Do you really think he wasn't going to address the defense in the offseason given the chance?

effectively?

no. . . he had already stated that he was going to keep slowick-- that should tell you all you need to know about how much progress we were going to make on that side of the ball! dude was hands down, bar none THE absolute worst coordinator i've ever seen. . . once shanahan tied his fate to that ultimate loser, pat couldn't get 'em out of town fast enough to suit me. . .

[turftoad]

effectively?

no. . . he had already stated that he was going to keep slowick-- that should tell you all you need to know about how much progress we were going to make on that side of the ball! dude was hands down, bar none THE absolute worst coordinator i've ever seen. . . once shanahan tied his fate to that ultimate loser, pat couldn't get 'em out of town fast enough to suit me. . .

I understand that, but it was also due to a lack of talent. I'm sure the future plan would have been to draft "D" and concentrate on "D" during FA also.

[Broncolingus]

I answered yes, but I'm honestly not sure...

Give McD another season and we'll see where we are in Jan...hopefully better than .500 and just missing the playoffs after a nice first half of the season...

I do like his 'team' approach and think that is the foundation to win Championships...

JMO...

[dogfish]

I understand that, but it was also due to a lack of talent. I'm sure the future plan would have been to draft "D" and concentrate on "D" during FA also.

and let slowick waste their talent by having them completely out of position, teaching poor technique, and not playing to their strengths? even champ bailey barely had any success playing in slowick's "scheme," and champ's an all-time great at his position. . .

i mean, shit-- dumervil had five sacks last year. . . this year he had seventeen! wouldn't have mattered who we'd acquired-- reggie white couldn't get sacks if you kept dropping him into coverage on the back of zone blitzes, and steve atwater wouldn't help your run defense lined up 25 yards from the line of scrimmage. . .

slowick HAD to go. . .

[HORSEPOWER 56]

and let slowick waste their talent by having them completely out of position, teaching poor technique, and not playing to their strengths? even champ bailey barely had any success playing in slowick's "scheme," and champ's an all-time great at his position. . .

i mean, shit-- dumervil had five sacks last year. . . this year he had seventeen! wouldn't have mattered who we'd acquired-- reggie white couldn't get sacks if you kept dropping him into coverage on the back of zone blitzes, and steve atwater wouldn't help your run defense lined up 25 yards from the line of scrimmage. . .

slowick HAD to go. . .

Maybe Shanahan will bring him with him to Washington so he cab ruin that defense, too! :lol:

[dogfish]

Maybe Shanahan will bring him with him to Washington so he cab ruin that defense, too! :lol:

believe it or not, it's actually been reported that mike has said he'll bring slowick with him wherever he ends up. . .

:shocked:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

believe it or not, it's actually been reported that mike has said he'll bring slowick with him wherever he ends up. . .

:shocked:

Hmm, McDaniels is starting to look better all the time...:D

[Medford Bronco]

and let slowick waste their talent by having them completely out of position, teaching poor technique, and not playing to their strengths? even champ bailey barely had any success playing in slowick's "scheme," and champ's an all-time great at his position. . .

i mean, shit-- dumervil had five sacks last year. . . this year he had seventeen! wouldn't have mattered who we'd acquired-- reggie white couldn't get sacks if you kept dropping him into coverage on the back of zone blitzes, and steve atwater wouldn't help your run defense lined up 25 yards from the line of scrimmage. . .

slowick HAD to go. . .

I hope the Skins dont hire Slowlik as Shannys new DC.

As much as I hate Daniel Snyder, I hope he does not do it. I would not want to see any fan base suffer with Slow Brain at the helm. :lol:

[Medford Bronco]

ahh, now we're down to the nuts and bolts. . . so what do you think we should do-- do we focus all our energies on making the team around him better and try to field a team in the (pre-flacco) ravens mold, with a nasty defense and very conservative offense? or do we invest a draft pick in the top two or three rounds on a QB to start developing for the future?

I take the former. I love a great D. Heck its been SOOOOO LONG since we had a great one. 1977 comes to mind.

and no the late 90s Defense was not great. It was pretty good. They did not mess up a good thing with an offense led by HOFers that scored 500 pts. They also were good as creating turnovers as well.

[Medford Bronco]

Yeah, we might need to get the chalk board and game tape out. Either Orton is borderline retarded, and screwed up McDaniels offense, McDaniels isnt much of a genius.

If Orton is borderline retarded then why only 10 picks vs Boy Wonders 26? just saying.


and I agree with most, Orton is not the long term answer to win it all, unless you have the 1985 Bears or 2000 Ravens defense.

He is a slighly above average QB.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I just have one thing to say to those who think we've "improved". For the second year in a row, a defensive-minded rookie head coach has taken a rookie QB led team to the playoffs.

We couldn't do it with an offensive mastermind HC, a four year veteran QB, a top 5 WR, an offensive line that allowed 11 sacks last year, a defensive secondary with over 20 probowl visits between them, and the league's top sackmaster.

So no, we definitely did not improve!

If those facts alone don't piss you off, I don't know what will.

[Northman]

Seriously, you don't think Shanny knew that? Do you really think he wasn't going to address the defense in the offseason given the chance?

Maybe, maybe not. Shanny's problem was that he waited so long to decide to do it that he ran out of time. But there was no guarantee that he was going to right the ship defensively. Especially when trying to keep Slowik on the staff which only helped his cause out the door.

[Northman]

I just have one thing to say to those who think we've "improved". For the second year in a row, a defensive-minded rookie head coach has taken a rookie QB led team to the playoffs.

We couldn't do it with an offensive mastermind HC, a four year veteran QB, a top 5 WR, an offensive line that allowed 11 sacks last year, a defensive secondary with over 20 probowl visits between them, and the league's top sackmaster.

So no, we definitely did not improve!

If those facts alone don't piss you off, I don't know what will.


We would of probably made it had we played the Colts and Bengals when they had nothing to play for too.

[dogfish]

okay, all this talk about slowick convinced to me vote YES, we're better than we were a year ago-- just because that waste is gone and i'll never have to watch last year's complete abortion of a defense again. . . yea, this year's D also folded, but they were damn solid for most of the year, until nolan finally ran out of smoke and mirrors. . .

[HORSEPOWER 56]

We would of probably made it had we played the Colts and Bengals when they had nothing to play for too.

We beat the Bengals. it was the Chiefs and Raiders that kept us out of the playoffs. Two teams that will be drafting top 5 in April.

The Sparklers' backups beat Washington's starters yesterday with nothing to play for but pride. These are the things that piss me off.

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

I think we might benefit from a WC Offense more than this version of the spread.

On Topic: The coach, QB, Owner can change but the culture remains the same.
Always start fast, never finish strong, always lead division but never prolonged.

[Northman]

We beat the Bengals. it was the Chiefs and Raiders that kept us out of the playoffs. Two teams that will be drafting top 5 in April.

The Sparklers' backups beat Washington's starters yesterday with nothing to play for but pride. These are the things that piss me off.

My general point is those are division rivals but the Jets caught lightning in the bottle when their final 2 games came against teams with truly no motivating factor. Doesnt mean it doesnt piss me off that we cant take care of our own business but this is why i dont like sitting players.

[red98]

We would of probably made it had we played the Colts and Bengals when they had nothing to play for too.

What were the Raiders and Chiefs playing for?

[Lonestar]

I think we are much better than we were last year.. and poised to have a better season next year.. after a full year in the the NEW schemes the only folks that will need to learn it will be the newbies brought in..

also it will not be the blind leading the blind as far as the coaches are concerned..

I see us being just a few starters/players away from being really good.. plus a lot of back up players..

we need NT and although fields did a good to great job this past year, he is flat not big enough to demand double teams consistently, need a couple road grader OG's and a bigger veteran center.. the guys that are there now can be adequate backups..

I think the LB core has enough players to do it and the DB group is very good with some rookies and second year players poised to take over..

RB's are good and even without marshal and scheffler those areas are stocked with players for the future..

I know that marshall had another great year but did he really help the team? I do know he is NOT a TEAM player he is a ME guy always about ME..

QB I think Orton can do it and would be surprised to see us take another one except as a Backup to the guy we drafted this year..with another year in the system and a full offseason to learn from Josh I think he will be the answer till mister right falls into our pocket..

Everyone has to remember the Brady was not Brady until he got into the NE scheme and had time to learn it before being thrown to the wolves and everyone else around him also knew it and ran the right routes consistently so it was not a mind game if he made a bad throw he knew it was his mistake .. unlike here IF Orton makes a bad throw was it the WR that was off or was it him.. hard to tell but next year we will know for sure..

SOrry to all the Orton or Josh haters out there, I think we are closer than YOU think..

[Tned-Mobile]

Are we a better team than we were a year ago?

No, and a definite no if Marshall has in fact played his last game.

Let's look at the changes:

QB has been downgraded. I still hold out hope that once he fully understands the system that Orton will be a good system QB, but so far he hasn't shown it. He is fine 'managing' the game when the running game is working and the defense is dominating, but if the offense has to put points on the board, he doesn't have what it takes.

WR has been downgraded. It is severely downgraded if Marshall is gone, but even if Marshall is here, it is downgraded by the downgrade in QB. Since Orton can't or won't throw the long ball (or McDaniels doesn't call it), the defense crowds the line of scrimmage, and Royal has failed to be productive in the crowd of defenders within 5-15 yards of the LOS. So, even with Marshall, the effectiveness (due to QB or play calling or lack of running game) of the WR corp is way down.

RB's even though Buck surprised most of us with his burst, and being teamed up with a first round pick, our running game dropped from 12th last year to 18th this year. Last year we had what 7 RB's on injured reserve, and used 8 or so RB's in total, including the 7th round FB and a cell phone salesman. Our YPC dropped from 4.8 (with the revolving door of RB's) to 4.2 with a fast vet and a first round pick.

O-line is worse. The o-line fell off both in pass protection and run protection. Many believe this is because McDaniels more or less eliminated the ZBS initially, and then after line was really struggling, reintroduced some plays. Regardless, the line play dropped of significantly, and when you look at the guys on the line (the two Ryan's having another year of experience), it almost has to be scheme related.

Defense is better. The defense is greatly improved from last year. While the defense dropped off sustantially in the last 10 games, it is still much better than last year. However, it isn't so much better that it makes up for how much worse the offense is.

Are we better than last year? No, clearly not.

However, I do think that what McDaniels did in training camp, the tackling drills, etc., made the team more fundamentally sound, but the further away from training camp we got, some of those fundamentals seemed to fade. That gives me hope that with another full offseason of OTA's and TC, that the team will be even more fundamentally sound next year.

So, I think it comes down to this. McDaniels roster moves and scheme have made us much weaker on offense, but he and Nolan's work on defense have made us better.

At this point I am holding on to Shanny's old, "it's not until the 3rd year in a new system until a QB is completely comfortable and can produce to his full potential" and maybe next year will be better, and if Orton is the long term QB, '11 even better.

Will our first round draft picks (moreno, ayers and Smith) produce better next year than this? Will they draft impact players this year?

Lots of questions that have to be answered before we know if the light at the end of the tunnel is a traing rushing towards us, or the lights over Texas stadium lighting up Super Bowl XLV that we will play in.

[JDL]

No we're not... last year's team no way no how could have gone 2-8 over any stretch and didn't get blown out in ALL 3 home division games.

Make no mistake... Denver has issues that right now mean this team is worse... which is fine, if it is just a matter of taking 1 step back to take 2 steps forward.... we don't know yet, but this team isn't better... that's silly.

[Lonestar]

Seriously, you don't think Shanny knew that? Do you really think he wasn't going to address the defense in the offseason given the chance?

No considering his refusal to fire slowit. I believe he was content to win with an overpowering O and medicore to very poor D.

He may have wasted MORE big bucks bringing in some more FA hacks. And hope like hell they would slow the bleeding enough to get him into the playoffs.

But he never gave a damn about anything but O.

Look back at his drafts, FA failures and other than the Bailey trade, what he acomplished in the trade area.

Look at who he hired as coaches. Other than Bates who was IMHO Pats decision all of them poor to just OK coaches.

Ev erything he did on D was bandaid at best.

Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

[Northman]

What were the Raiders and Chiefs playing for?

Spoiler

[Ravage!!!]

Let see. We lost a three game lead, again. We didn't win a game in Nov. We lost EVERY home game to division rivals. We scored fewer points than last year while allowing MUCH fewer points. Finished the season with the same record as last year. Got BLOWN OUT by division rivals at home. Got BLOWN OUT by a 3 win chiefs team, at home, in a must win game.

Probably losing Marshall, Scheff, Stokely, and Hillis ..and most probably Bailey in the offseason, while keeping Orton.

No.. we most certainly did not get better... imo.

[CoachChaz]

Let see. We lost a three game lead, again. We didn't win a game in Nov. We lost EVERY home game to division rivals. We scored fewer points than last year while allowing MUCH fewer points. Finished the season with the same record as last year. Got BLOWN OUT by division rivals at home. Got BLOWN OUT by a 3 win chiefs team, at home, in a must win game.

Probably losing Marshall, Scheff, Boldin, Stokely, and Hillis ..and most probably Bailey in the offseason, while keeping Orton.

No.. we most certainly did not get better... imo.

Speculation

[NightTrainLayne]

Let see. We lost a three game lead, again. We didn't win a game in Nov. We lost EVERY home game to division rivals. We scored fewer points than last year while allowing MUCH fewer points. Finished the season with the same record as last year. Got BLOWN OUT by division rivals at home. Got BLOWN OUT by a 3 win chiefs team, at home, in a must win game.

Probably losing Marshall, Scheff, Boldin, Stokely, and Hillis ..and most probably Bailey in the offseason, while keeping Orton.

No.. we most certainly did not get better... imo.

We won a game in November. . . :laugh:

[WARHORSE]

Yes.


The age of our interior Oline caught up to us, but we're a better team imo.


I can honestly say that last years team in this schedule would have failed miserably.

Cutler with less protection, and Selvin Young and Co. as our runningbacks, matched up with that horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE defense we had........ We would have threatened a one win season imo.


Look at the last few games, and our interior offensive line was playing in the backfield after the snap of the ball.

NOBODY can run with that kind of penetration, and that lead to a diminishing offense. But even with the Oline getting old inside, that defense we had last year, coupled with this years season would have been BEAT down at this time of the year badly.

If you think last years team was better, let me remind you of something:

Nate Websters helmet going one way, the runningback the other. Jamie Winborn pumping his fists after making a tackle, while losing 21 zip.
What was our safeties names again? DRE BLY.



Case closed.

[Ravage!!!]

We won a game in November. . . :laugh:

yes.. excuse me.. we played 5 games in NOV and lost 4 of them... how bad of me to overlook the fact that we played 5 games in the month instead of 4. That truly is very funny :coffee:

[Ravage!!!]

Speculation

Absolutely it is. Nothing more.. and never claimed it as fact. Which is why I used the word "probably" in the sentence that you quoted. Thats not a statement of fact. Thats what message board are about. But I'll tell you what. You can follow Me up with every post of speculation with this comment, if I can do the same on every post you make that includes speculation.

[WARHORSE]

I don't believe this Coach.

Our 6-0 start was nothing more than a fluke. The 2-6 finish is more realistic for this team.

We lost a bunch of talent from last year and are getting ready to lose more after this season (Marshal and Schef).
That kind of talent is not easy to replace. Not to mention the drama goes along with McD's personel handling.

I think yesterdays game showed that the defense is NOT shored up as it first showed in the first six games.

There are mega holes to fill on the defensive side of the ball and with the loss of Marshal and Schef, the offense is going to need an infussion of talent.
There won't be enough draft picks of quality free agents in the next two years to take care of that.

Sorry if I don't have my orange tinted glasses on but McD has not earned my respect or confidence after his first season.

I hope I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time but I just don't see it.

BTW, Orton is NOT the answer, creates another hole. As I said, I hope I'm wrong but with all the holes, we are a fast sinking ship.


Tell me how this tastes in your mouth: Our team going 0-6 was nothiing more than a fluke.


Right.

It sounds the same way saying our 6-0 start was a fluke.

Our defense is LIGHT YEARS ahead of last years team. And leadershipwise, this team is LIGHT YEARS ahead of last years team.


Gimme the draft picks for Marshall. Id rather have a team thats sold out.


Looking at the fact that we had a change in defensive scheme, along with a change in offensive scheme, as well as personel that werent selected for this style of play, Id say our head coach did an AWESOME job of getting it done against the HARDEST schedule in the league. Can anyone point out a team that played a harder schedule than us?


Im looking forward to next year.:salute:

[missingnumber7]

0-3 vs AFC West at home. Worst home record vs AFC West in the 00's...in fact we had never had a losing record vs AFC West at home this decade before this year.

[CoachChaz]

Absolutely it is. Nothing more.. and never claimed it as fact. Which is why I used the word "probably" in the sentence that you quoted. Thats not a statement of fact. Thats what message board are about. But I'll tell you what. You can follow Me up with every post of speculation with this comment, if I can do the same on every post you make that includes speculation.

I was merely pointing out that we cant very well make a dissertation on how this team is worse based on things that may or may not happen yet. if we feel they are worse based on the season that's fine...but adding "potential" personnel losses into the equation is irrelevant at the moment.

That's all I was saying

[G_Money]

Our secondary is better.
Our LB corps is better.
Our DL is the same.
Our OL is worse.
Our running game has more talent but is worse.
Our QB is worse.

Our defensive coaching was better.
Our offensive coaching was worse.

Call it a push. We moved the holes around, we didn't fill them. Now, if we moved them because we can better fill the holes we made than the holes we had, that's fine.

But as Coach says, that's speculation.

For what we have, I can't really see improvement or failure over last year. We didn't build on anything we did right last year, but we fixed some of what we did wrong.

The more I look back, the stranger the year gets.

The poll results look about right to me - pretty much down the middle, tilted slightly toward disappointment.

~G

[Ravage!!!]

I was merely pointing out that we cant very well make a dissertation on how this team is worse based on things that may or may not happen yet. if we feel they are worse based on the season that's fine...but adding "potential" personnel losses into the equation is irrelevant at the moment.

That's all I was saying

Fair enough.. but its not like I'm just making uneducated or wild speculation coming from nowhere. I can downgrade alone on not playing the players on the last game, but I think thats one-in-the-same as saying they are gone this coming season, and that was just the first sign of it.